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Author Topic: 2013 Nats date change  (Read 13454 times)

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2012, 11:55:16 PM »
Can't speak for anyone else, of course -- but I'm done.

After 2013, will no longer (since 1951) be a member of the Academy of Mostly Arfs.



Mike,
If at some point I decide not to fly competitively I will do the same.  I don't need those jerks to have fun just flying CL for sport.
Their insurance is only secondary coverage anyway.

Randy C.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2012, 04:26:44 AM »
Leaving the AMA is just not an option for some of us. The Walker Cup is the highest achievement in stunt as far as I am concerned and it can only be won at the AMA Nationals.

Rich, Making the team trials and Nats a two week event is a dumb idea. Some of us (I would be willing to say a lot of us) cant get that much time off of work at one time. I can take a week off and then a month later a couple days but with my job it is not easy to take that much time off at once. A worlds trip every few years is the best I can do. Doug also made a good point about not moving the Nats around. I didn't mind seeing new places and going to the traveling Nats but those days have passed and the Muncie site is better than any one of the other places that we traveled to. That and the AMA is not going to let the traveling Nats come back anyways. By the way, why do you care?

Derek
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 07:48:33 AM by Paul Taylor »

Offline peabody

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2012, 06:18:01 AM »
Derek...
I want to see the event grow and prosper...

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2012, 06:33:04 AM »
Derek...
I want to see the event grow and prosper...


Not sure I agree with your solutions...

Derek

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2012, 09:11:15 AM »
That means for any sanctioned contest, be it FF, CL and RC, you will not be allowed to fly or take part.   In the old days I could depend on the NATS being close for me every other year.  Now the NATS is only just a little further every year.   I can feel for the people from the west coast.  I remember one friend saying it took them a week to get to Chicopee MASS for that NATS.   I can also see Sparky's suggestion for a September NATS.   How many school age kids are going to the NATS now as competitors.   My  youngsters have grown up and I can't get the grandkids going any more.  But, in the long run,  we have Muncie and lets keep it.   We also need to get more participation in CL.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2012, 09:17:00 AM »
That means for any sanctioned contest, be it FF, CL and RC, you will not be allowed to fly or take part.   In the old days I could depend on the NATS being close for me every other year.  Now the NATS is only just a little further every year.   I can feel for the people from the west coast.  I remember one friend saying it took them a week to get to Chicopee MASS for that NATS.   I can also see Sparky's suggestion for a September NATS.   How many school age kids are going to the NATS now as competitors.   My  youngsters have grown up and I can't get the grandkids going any more.  But, in the long run,  we have Muncie and lets keep it.   We also need to get more participation in CL.

My son flew in Junior last year. If we make it impossible for them to come then we will most certainly lose any that might show up in the future.

September is no good.

Derek

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2012, 09:58:58 AM »
If the copter event is in August then what is taking OUR week?  If it's another R/C event why can't THEY take the first week in July.  Is a proposed calendar anywhere to be looked at?

Dave
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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2012, 10:10:32 AM »
If I remember correctly, a large group of modelers tried several years back to organize their own answer to AMA, including insurance, and failed miserably to be successful.  We have what we have, and I believe our best approach to the problem is to stand up and fight for our rights/privileges.
My latest answer from Joyce Hager was one of understanding and concern, and I think if we fight hard enough, there may be others who will listen.  How successful that is likely to be, I don't know, but if you smack a bully hard enough to break his nose, even if he licks you then, he'll think twice before bothering you again. 
We simply need to stand our ground, and I, personally, don't think quitting is the answer if we fly competition.  Just my opinion.
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2012, 10:23:16 AM »
Everyone but me seems to be getting replies from the AMA. I tried to be as nice as I could be but you all know me, it probably didn't appear that way to the receiving end...

Derek

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2012, 11:02:04 AM »
Everyone but me seems to be getting replies from the AMA. I tried to be as nice as I could be but you all know me, it probably didn't appear that way to the receiving end...

Derek

Check your junk mail.  Your email settings might be flagging it for some reason and sticking it there.
Doug Moon
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Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2012, 12:58:43 PM »
OK once again the AMA is offending its founding members. So what can we do about it? It appears to me that most of you have already done the correct things. The results of your efforts are disappointing. Not your fault. So It remains to be said that we all need to get out of the AMA. Yes I mean it. Looks like the Tampa Bay Line fliers contest in November will be the last contest for me. So what am I losing? A magizine that I throw in the trash can every month after I scan it for something of interest to me. In 2013 there will be no contests for me. This is going to hurt the clubs who put on the contests and the communities that host them. The cottage vendors will also be hurt by this by lost sales. In deed the clubs them selves will be hurt and perhaps fold up. As for the Nats they to will lose. So but for the AMA catering to outsider non members I do not care. There must be a way to get us insurance that helps the clubs to put on a contest. Just have non sanctioned events? We all mostly have home owners policies does that help? I'm just saying.

Chuck
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Offline peabody

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2012, 01:29:30 PM »
Chuck
There is some wise saying about babys and bathwater that fits here...
It sounds to me like the Academy is stepping on more toes than just control line fliers...

Have fun!

Offline Bill Little

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2012, 01:35:55 PM »
Something I will mention here since it has been mentioned before.

Can we run the NATS and Team Trials concurrently?  Those flying for a team spot declare before the meet and pay whatever fee that it carries.  Then the top three (and alternates) are those who declare for the team ahead of time and finish highest.  Judges are in place and it would eliminate the need for a separate Team Trials.  The variation in scoring by FAI and AMA standards doesn't seem to me to be a problem.  We are simply picking the best three of those who desire to be on the team.

Down side?

Bill
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2012, 02:00:39 PM »
Something I will mention here since it has been mentioned before.

Can we run the NATS and Team Trials concurrently?  Those flying for a team spot declare before the meet and pay whatever fee that it carries.  Then the top three (and alternates) are those who declare for the team ahead of time and finish highest.  Judges are in place and it would eliminate the need for a separate Team Trials.  The variation in scoring by FAI and AMA standards doesn't seem to me to be a problem.  We are simply picking the best three of those who desire to be on the team.

Down side?

Bill

Sadly it does not work like that. A FAI team has to be picked under specific guidelines, they include using the FAI scoring system, judges that are voted on by the contest board, and a few other things that I cannot think of right this second. It would, however, be nice to not have to make two trips to Muncie every other year. Just ask Brett how he feels about that.

Derek

Offline Bill Little

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2012, 02:01:46 PM »
Thanks for clarifying the rules, and procedures.

Bill
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2012, 02:04:12 PM »
Something I will mention here since it has been mentioned before.

Can we run the NATS and Team Trials concurrently?  Those flying for a team spot declare before the meet and pay whatever fee that it carries.  Then the top three (and alternates) are those who declare for the team ahead of time and finish highest.  Judges are in place and it would eliminate the need for a separate Team Trials.  The variation in scoring by FAI and AMA standards doesn't seem to me to be a problem.  We are simply picking the best three of those who desire to be on the team.

Down side?

Bill

That is not allowed

Randy

Offline Lynn Weedman

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2012, 02:46:53 PM »
Doug...
I wasn't saying anything about a lack of space....
It seems to me that a whole bunch of people enjoyed the Nats being at different military bases across the Country...."the good old days"...

Have fun!

Yep !!!!! Navy bases
we have one in Jacksonville,Fl (Whitehouse OLF) That has 6000' of runway we have used over the years for contests like
The King Orange International matter of fact I have a request letter in to the Navy to reserve the site for three days in January for the 2013 contest.
This would be a great site for the NATS.


LynnWeedman X47 Flyers
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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2012, 02:55:31 PM »
At one time I had thought the same thing and sent letters to EAA and they will carry our insurance. However the AMA is still the governing body for model aircraft. You have to be a AMA member first to fly for FAI team trials. The AMA is the US Representative for the FAI board.
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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2012, 03:40:23 PM »
The AMA is the US Representative for the FAI board.
And who voted them in? AMA is a private organization, not a government entity. What would be the mechanism to have another body represent F2 interests to the FAI?

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2012, 03:55:43 PM »
And who voted them in? AMA is a private organization, not a government entity. What would be the mechanism to have another body represent F2 interests to the FAI?

I dont know how it works thats all I can tell you I found out.
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2012, 04:28:59 PM »
It seems to me we'll have to work with what we have.  Hard enough to muster help for a local contest, let alone some new national organization and to have another contest to call the NATS... No Walker Cup etc., well...just not a nats to me.
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Online Trostle

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2012, 04:52:46 PM »
Sadly it does not work like that. A FAI team has to be picked under specific guidelines, they include using the FAI scoring system, judges that are voted on by the contest board, and a few other things that I cannot think of right this second. It would, however, be nice to not have to make two trips to Muncie every other year. Just ask Brett how he feels about that.

Derek

Derek, I am not picking on you, but chose your statement to try to explain something here.

Actually, there are no guidelines/requirements that specify how any "Team" is selected to represent a "country/national aerosport organization" for any FAI aeromodeling world championship.  The FAI is the governing body that oversees international sport aviation activities.  Here in the US, the NAA governs all of the activities regarding the US participation in any FAI sanctioned sport aviation activity.  Our AMA, as a part of the NAA, oversees the US participation in any FAI sanctioned event.  In turn, the AMA will solicit bids for a team selection process.  In most cases, the AMA has established a team selection committee to initiate the process to establish a team selection program.  Also, in most cases, the AMA through those specific team selection committees will work with the relevant Special Interest Groups (SIG's, in our case PAMPA) to actually administer whatever team selection program is chosen.  Over the years, before and after PAMPA was created, our F2B teams have always been selected by a single team selection finals where FAI rules and scoring are used.  Actually, though it is almost unimaginable that it would ever happen, the AMA could establish a world championship team just by appointment of the team members.  (This is highly unlikely in today's environment where the AMA is looking for excuses to eliminate teams to the world championships.)  Instead, almost universally, the AMA depends on the AMA team selection committees and SIGs to determine the makeup of a team to the world championships.  

There is absolutely no requirement that any special, single event team selection finals program be held to establish any of the AMA world championship teams.  For our F2B teams, we have always held a single FAI F2B Team Selection finals (though I am not too sure about the process in the early days of FIA CL World Championships which started in 1960).  The team selection process is determined by the respective team selection committees, approved by the AMA.  There is nothing in that process that requires any separate team selection finals.  It is possible that an F2B team could be selected based on the results of our Nationals or any contest for that matter or just by the team selection committee submitting names (no contest or finals) if the process were approved by the AMA.  

To most in our CL Aerobatics community, it makes sense to hold a separate team finals, using FAI rules where the primary difference is in the scoring systems used (10-40 points per maneuver, pattern points, and appearance points for AMA scoring vs 0-10 points with K factors, different penalties for incorrectly flown maneuvers, and no appearance points for the FAI system). It has been argued that whoever flies the best pattern will be scored the highest, regardless of the scoring system.  There is some merit to that argument.  However, because of the K factors for the more "difficult" maneuvers, the FAI system puts a premium on flying those portions of the pattern better so a top score in one system might not translate to a top score with the other system.

In the past, our FAI scale teams have been selected based on performance in the AMA Nats scale events.  That could be done now to select our F2B teams, but so far, those overseeing the "process" has determined not to do so.  Some of the details would have to be worked out, like what to do with appearance points and pattern points, what kind of qualification process (if any, there are options) to use, but the Nats could well be used to select our F2B team, either based on the Nats event itself, or hold a separate event before or after the Nats.

The F2B Team Selection Committee will soon need to initiate the process for the program next year.  There are many things and options to consider.

Keith

By the way, the procedures for the AMA World Championshp teams can be reviewed at

http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/teaminfo.aspx

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2012, 08:01:03 PM »
Selecting the team at the nats is something I have wondered about for a while. 

Just go with me here for a minute.

We have some very talented individuals among who know the ins and outs of the ever so infamous Excel! 

With their kind of computing prowess we could quite possibly pick the team at the nats.

The team would be selected on Friday, or whatever day, the Top 20 is flown. 
The scores are input into the nats program as normal.  The final placings are put out as normal and the Top 5 for the flyoff are selected as normal.
At the same time once the scores for the AMA contest are calculated the program can convert each maneuver score from 10-40 to 0-10 and apply K-factors accordingly.  Remove appearance and pattern points and total it up for the FAI score of each flight.  Post the FAI scores for each pilot next to their AMA score.  BOOM, the top 3 are the team.  Once the top 3 are selected they and the next 2 or 3 alternates will be told to be sure to have your schedule under 7 minutes per FAI rules.  Practice your square eights and your hourglass.  Go and make us proud!

One thing I cant seem to get around is the BOM.  It is not a requirement for FAI but it is for 322.  That means to make it to the team selection final 20 you would have had to adhere to the BOM....  I don't think that is the right way to go about it.  I would think we would want all the possible flyers available to fly under FAI rules to be able to try out for the team.

Since we are now going to have Expert at the nats and it is a non BOM event there has to be a way to combine it. 

I guess it really depends on the number of entries into the Expert category.  If the finals for expert is just 10 flyers or 8 flyers then they could be combined into the top 20.  Adding 4 or 5 flights to each circle on Friday morning would not push the contest to far back.  With no delays the two rounds would still be completed by late morning.  Both the Open and Expert guys would be judged by the same set of judges for the Top 5 flyoff, the Expert winner, and the Team.  It sounds like a lot but really the main work is done by the program and the programer. 

Just thinking out loud.....

 

 
Doug Moon
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2012, 09:06:50 PM »
If I remember correctly, a large group of modelers tried several years back to organize their own answer to AMA, including insurance, and failed miserably to be successful.  We have what we have, and I believe our best approach to the problem is to stand up and fight for our rights/privileges.
My latest answer from Joyce Hager was one of understanding and concern, and I think if we fight hard enough, there may be others who will listen.  How successful that is likely to be, I don't know, but if you smack a bully hard enough to break his nose, even if he licks you then, he'll think twice before bothering you again. 
We simply need to stand our ground, and I, personally, don't think quitting is the answer if we fly competition.  Just my opinion.

Nice thoughts Will...However in this case the Bully is so big you can't even reach his nose!
Joyce Hager is a nice lady with no authority to do anything.  The "leadership" of AMA is only concerned with keeping their jobs and that means placating the majority.  They have absolutely no reason to do otherwise.
Sure they're mostly nice people and will do what they can for us poor relations but if there is a conflict with the big boys (R/C anything) we will, as always, be treated as second class citizens.  No questions asked!  I'm sure you noticed we weren't even asked for our opinion.
Those of us that fly competition might as well "SHUT UP" and take what we get.  I "garuntee" no amount of fighting or complaining is going to have any effect on the outcome.
We stay with the AMA we just take our lumps and SHUT UP.  Be happy with the bones and leftovers.  That's the story...has been for the last 30 years and will be for the next 50 or more unless of course CL just shrivels up and dies with all us old guys...Hey I think that's what they are waiting for...

Randy Cuberly D>K D>K
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2012, 09:16:35 PM »
Derek, I am not picking on you, but chose your statement to try to explain something here.

Actually, there are no guidelines/requirements that specify how any "Team" is selected to represent a "country/national aerosport organization" for any FAI aeromodeling world championship.  The FAI is the governing body that oversees international sport aviation activities.  Here in the US, the NAA governs all of the activities regarding the US participation in any FAI sanctioned sport aviation activity.  Our AMA, as a part of the NAA, oversees the US participation in any FAI sanctioned event.  In turn, the AMA will solicit bids for a team selection process.  In most cases, the AMA has established a team selection committee to initiate the process to establish a team selection program.  Also, in most cases, the AMA through those specific team selection committees will work with the relevant Special Interest Groups (SIG's, in our case PAMPA) to actually administer whatever team selection program is chosen.  Over the years, before and after PAMPA was created, our F2B teams have always been selected by a single team selection finals where FAI rules and scoring are used.  Actually, though it is almost unimaginable that it would ever happen, the AMA could establish a world championship team just by appointment of the team members.  (This is highly unlikely in today's environment where the AMA is looking for excuses to eliminate teams to the world championships.)  Instead, almost universally, the AMA depends on the AMA team selection committees and SIGs to determine the makeup of a team to the world championships.  

There is absolutely no requirement that any special, single event team selection finals program be held to establish any of the AMA world championship teams.  For our F2B teams, we have always held a single FAI F2B Team Selection finals (though I am not too sure about the process in the early days of FIA CL World Championships which started in 1960).  The team selection process is determined by the respective team selection committees, approved by the AMA.  There is nothing in that process that requires any separate team selection finals.  It is possible that an F2B team could be selected based on the results of our Nationals or any contest for that matter or just by the team selection committee submitting names (no contest or finals) if the process were approved by the AMA.  

To most in our CL Aerobatics community, it makes sense to hold a separate team finals, using FAI rules where the primary difference is in the scoring systems used (10-40 points per maneuver, pattern points, and appearance points for AMA scoring vs 0-10 points with K factors, different penalties for incorrectly flown maneuvers, and no appearance points for the FAI system). It has been argued that whoever flies the best pattern will be scored the highest, regardless of the scoring system.  There is some merit to that argument.  However, because of the K factors for the more "difficult" maneuvers, the FAI system puts a premium on flying those portions of the pattern better so a top score in one system might not translate to a top score with the other system.

In the past, our FAI scale teams have been selected based on performance in the AMA Nats scale events.  That could be done now to select our F2B teams, but so far, those overseeing the "process" has determined not to do so.  Some of the details would have to be worked out, like what to do with appearance points and pattern points, what kind of qualification process (if any, there are options) to use, but the Nats could well be used to select our F2B team, either based on the Nats event itself, or hold a separate event before or after the Nats.

The F2B Team Selection Committee will soon need to initiate the process for the program next year.  There are many things and options to consider.

Keith

By the way, the procedures for the AMA World Championshp teams can be reviewed at

http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/teaminfo.aspx

Hi Keith

I have to say this ,That is really not the case, and is not so, In reality,The AMA controls the Team Selection and  MANDATES that it be ran in a certain form, they even have published a " BOOK"
That spells out "how" the team is to be picked, and how it is to be administered, PAMPA has little to do with the TTs and team selection. as it does have much to do with running the NATs, we have much leadway in changing the NATs as we see fit, not so at the Team Trials.
We are not allowed to change anything unless we get permission from the AMA. and they do mandate how we do this at the TTs, and do not at the NATs.
I think as you may remember, years ago a person thought that we could do whatever we want in running the TTs and was stopped on the spot.
The AMA's Procedures BOOK on how to run the team selection contest does have to be followed.

And as a matter of fact something happened this year that could have bee a differant situation "if" we did not "have to follow the mandate by the AMA, we had team members that had to bailout on the World Championships, The AMA was asked "if" they would appoint another team member that could go to fill the void, They said NO, the only way the person could go was to have been qualified at the AMA U.S Team Selection contest for the F2B team

Regards
Randy Smith

AMA TSC Chairman
AMA Dist 5 rep TSC
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 09:34:10 PM by RandySmith »

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2012, 04:15:37 AM »
I read through the AMA Blue Book and the FAI sporting code and I could not see anything that directly said that we couldn't use the Nats results to pick a team but it did refer back to the AMA for all the procedures. I do, however, think it is up to the Executive Committee to tell us how to do it. There is a lot of information spread around in a lot of different places so it takes a while to track it all down. I think Randy is correct because when I ran the Team Trials in 2011 I know that I read somewhere about the requirements for holding a team trials. I just cant remember where I read it. I was looking through my paperwork last night but never found it. I may look again...

Derek

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2012, 05:11:07 AM »
I am thinking out loud too. Could the Nats flights be used IF we have a second set of judges scoring with the FAI system for those who would like to be part of the trials? ( two sets of judges for those particular flights.)
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2012, 05:58:33 AM »
Why not run the TT's before the NATS competition starts.   Most everybody is there on the weekend and flying as soon as the site is open.  Processing on Sunday, flying on Monday and Tuesday.   The NATS could still have their processing on Tuesday with flying starting on Wednesday and Thursday qualifying.  Friday top twenty and Saturday Jr, Sr and top five with the Walker flying.  Of course it may cut into some practice flying.   But, as big as Muncie is that should be no problem.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2012, 06:12:40 AM »
Why not run the TT's before the NATS competition starts.   Most everybody is there on the weekend and flying as soon as the site is open.  Processing on Sunday, flying on Monday and Tuesday.   The NATS could still have their processing on Tuesday with flying starting on Wednesday and Thursday qualifying.  Friday top twenty and Saturday Jr, Sr and top five with the Walker flying.  Of course it may cut into some practice flying.   But, as big as Muncie is that should be no problem.

I was kinda thinking the same thing...

Derek

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2012, 07:10:56 AM »
I am thinking out loud too. Could the Nats flights be used IF we have a second set of judges scoring with the FAI system for those who would like to be part of the trials? ( two sets of judges for those particular flights.)

That seems like more work.  When you could just have the computer process the scores and convert to FAI scoring with the stroke of the enter key. 
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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2012, 07:18:37 AM »
That seems like more work.  When you could just have the computer process the scores and convert to FAI scoring with the stroke of the enter key. 

The problem with all of the is the finer points of the FAI pattern such as, the time, the flight becoming official when the plane is released, the lap and a half before the overheads, and the landing procedure. It has to be AMA or FAI it can't be both. As Keith pointed out the main reason to make the team using FAI rules is to pick a team that will theoretically be competitive using that system. I do not believe that it is as easy as just hitting the enter key. The FAI pattern also goes down to 0 basically a 100 point scoring contests when you factor in the decimal places. AMA is 10-40.

Derek

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2012, 07:52:44 AM »
The problem with all of the is the finer points of the FAI pattern such as, the time, the flight becoming official when the plane is released, the lap and a half before the overheads, and the landing procedure. It has to be AMA or FAI it can't be both. As Keith pointed out the main reason to make the team using FAI rules is to pick a team that will theoretically be competitive using that system. I do not believe that it is as easy as just hitting the enter key. The FAI pattern also goes down to 0 basically a 100 point scoring contests when you factor in the decimal places. AMA is 10-40.

Derek

It can work.

Yes it can be both.  The time limit need not apply.  Official upon release is for the FAI event.  Just tell the team that is the time limit when they go to the WCs.  Lap and half is the minimum.  Doing an extra lap for AMA pattern minimum is fine and doesn't cost you any points in FAI.  My idea is to get the best flyers on the WC team per the maneuver scoring.  The releasing of the model, time limit, less one lap etc are all just particulars for FAI procedures.  They have 0 effect on the maneuvers.  The only real difference is the landing glide and maybe the clover entry.  Just practice landing differently once you make the team.
   
If you are making the team or have a chance to make the team you can get your flight times under 7 minutes.  Heck I was able to do it when I went to the TT flying 5.80 lap times.

If you are making the team or have a chance to make the team you can have a good understanding that when you release the model in FAI there is no turning back for that flight.

If it is possible to do what I am talking about it would require more study of the FAI sporting code for the team members as they will not be going through the regular FAI event we have had in the past.  But then that would be the case if the nats placing were used for the team as well, like KT stated was done in the past.

Yes the FAI goes 0-10 we go 10-40.  Once the conversion rate is created it’s simple.  The 10-40 score converted will have some decimal points in there. 

It can be done anyway the AMA approves it to be done.  We could throw darts for it if they approve it. 

I am going to do some research to even see if the conversion will work.  I know a good excel guy here at work.
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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2012, 08:04:43 AM »
My point was that if we can or do use the Nats to pick the team there is no reason to try to make it FAI. That would just overcomplicate the whole thing. The best 3 are the best 3 leave it at that. I need to do some more research. Maybe Randy can find a copy of the rules from the AMA where it says that we must have a separate team trial because in my blue book they pretty much left it up to the SIGs.

The only problem I do see is that you would have to pay double to enter if you wished to try out for the team. Part of the teams funds come from the team trials and if you did not pay the extra fee you would not be eligible for the team regardless of placing. That would still be cheaper than two trips though.

I know that other countries use the placing from various contests to determine the team. There is no "Team Trials".

Derek

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2012, 08:19:24 AM »
How do you determine who gets what trophy if the two events are combined.   It is possible that the top three in open did not sign up for the team trials.  Also if flying for the team trials and make the top three, how are you going to determine who flies on that last day.  I say keep the two separate.   We have done it in F2C in the past.
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2012, 08:29:46 AM »
My point was that if we can or do use the Nats to pick the team there is no reason to try to make it FAI. That would just overcomplicate the whole thing. The best 3 are the best 3 leave it at that. I need to do some more research. Maybe Randy can find a copy of the rules from the AMA where it says that we must have a separate team trial because in my blue book they pretty much left it up to the SIGs.

I know that other countries use the placing from various contests to determine the team. There is no "Team Trials".

Derek

I can see that.  I was just thinking with the K-factor the top three AMA might not be the same??

Other countries dont have to contend with a BOM and or different scoring so they just use a specified contest to also count for the team.  I can see why we made it separate.  But the cost of travel to contests and participation etc......could put us on a different path to the team in the future.  
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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2012, 08:35:54 AM »
I doubt if anything will change before this time next year so two trips to Muncie it is.

Derek

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2012, 09:03:47 AM »
The Nat's and the TTs' are totally seperate events and shall not
be combined. One has nothing to do with the other. As for cost
per competitor this also has no bearing as to whether one would
go to either one. A true competitor will do what it takes to get
where he wants to go. Sure, we all would like to save a little money
but not at the expense of either contest. If you want to go to one
or the other or both you will figure out a way. As some one said
"This ain't rocket science!" I have no problem leaving things just
as they are.  RJ

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2012, 09:07:08 AM »
I need to clarify some things that I have previously written regarding the team selection process.  There is an AMA Team Selection Committee for the F2B event.  The AMA Blue Book, referenced in my previous post, explains how that committee is established and how it works.  That committee submits a plan to the AMA on how the team selection program will be run.  There is some flexibility, but not much, on how the plan is formulated.  The AMA then approves that plan and then there are people recruited to execute that plan.  The Blue Book implies that there is to be a team selection finals.  It would be difficult to imagine that the AMA would approve any plan for the F2B team selection process other than holding a team selection finals.  This has historically been the method for our F2B teams.  However, the AMA has selected other FAI teams based on the results at the Nats.

The Blue Book specifies that the "finals contest is to be conducted in accordance with the FAI rules which are scheduled to be in effect at the World Championship for which the selection is taking place."  That means the 7 minute limit is to be enforced, FAI scoring would have to be used.  Just running some sort of a mathematical conversion  that somehow transforms the AMA 10-40 point system with its penalties for incomplete/omitted maneuvers to the FAI 0-10 in 0.1 increments using K-factors with a different set of penalties for incomplete/omitted maneuvers could not possibly be considered being in accordance with FAI rules.  For our F2B event, about the only options to hold the Team selection program at the Nats is either to run the Nats to FAI rules or hold the team trials just before or after the Nats as a separate event.  There are problems with any of these options.  If the Nats are run to FAI rules, then what happens with our traditional event with the BOM requirement and appearance points which becomes a significant factor to determine a final score leading to qualifying for the Walker Cup?  Scheduling the event before or after the Nats will be difficult from the facility and manpower support perspectives.  Plus there will be another two days of "intense" competition for those participating which may be considered an undesirable consequence by most competitors.  Or, if a person just opts to participate in only one event or the other then each event will suffer in participation.  The Nats option has been proposed before and the committee, in conjunction with questionnaires to potential participants (previous participants), the proposal has been rejected probably for many of the reasons explained above.  

Another option suggested would be to use two sets of judges for the same flight.  I do not know of anybody who would want to be an Event Director for that sort of smash up.  Recruiting judges is difficult enough.  Recruiting even more judges will be impossible.  As a Judge, I would not want to be a part of a program  knowing there is a different set of judges scoring the same flights at the same time.  I would want nothing to do with that.  Not only would there be a problem with getting judges to participate, the entire Nats format with its multiple qualifying rounds, semifinals and finals is not the same as that used for the F2B events and would not be in compliance with the AMA requirement that FAI rules be followed.

There may be other alternatives to have the team selection at the Nats, but it is probably already too late to consider the Team Trials to be held in some way at the next Nats to select the 2014 team because of already existing scheduling problems.  

I should not have brought up the Nats option.  It is not a good idea.

Keith

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2012, 09:14:27 AM »
I'm with RJ on this one.  The nats is getting screwed up enough-leave the team trials alone.  Some might also choose to use different airplanes for these events due to appearance points and flight times, etc.  I think the real issue happens Saturday.

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« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 09:39:48 AM by Dave_Trible »
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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2012, 10:20:19 AM »
I need to clarify some things that I have previously written regarding the team selection process.  There is an AMA Team Selection Committee for the F2B event.  The AMA Blue Book, referenced in my previous post, explains how that committee is established and how it works.  That committee submits a plan to the AMA on how the team selection program will be run.  There is some flexibility, but not much, on how the plan is formulated.  The AMA then approves that plan and then there are people recruited to execute that plan.  The Blue Book implies that there is to be a team selection finals.  It would be difficult to imagine that the AMA would approve any plan for the F2B team selection process other than holding a team selection finals.  This has historically been the method for our F2B teams.  However, the AMA has selected other FAI teams based on the results at the Nats.

The Blue Book specifies that the "finals contest is to be conducted in accordance with the FAI rules which are scheduled to be in effect at the World Championship for which the selection is taking place."  That means the 7 minute limit is to be enforced, FAI scoring would have to be used.  Just running some sort of a mathematical conversion  that somehow transforms the AMA 10-40 point system with its penalties for incomplete/omitted maneuvers to the FAI 0-10 in 0.1 increments using K-factors with a different set of penalties for incomplete/omitted maneuvers could not possibly be considered being in accordance with FAI rules.  For our F2B event, about the only options to hold the Team selection program at the Nats is either to run the Nats to FAI rules or hold the team trials just before or after the Nats as a separate event.  There are problems with any of these options.  If the Nats are run to FAI rules, then what happens with our traditional event with the BOM requirement and appearance points which becomes a significant factor to determine a final score leading to qualifying for the Walker Cup?  Scheduling the event before or after the Nats will be difficult from the facility and manpower support perspectives.  Plus there will be another two days of "intense" competition for those participating which may be considered an undesirable consequence by most competitors.  Or, if a person just opts to participate in only one event or the other then each event will suffer in participation.  The Nats option has been proposed before and the committee, in conjunction with questionnaires to potential participants (previous participants), the proposal has been rejected probably for many of the reasons explained above.  

Another option suggested would be to use two sets of judges for the same flight.  I do not know of anybody who would want to be an Event Director for that sort of smash up.  Recruiting judges is difficult enough.  Recruiting even more judges will be impossible.  As a Judge, I would not want to be a part of a program  knowing there is a different set of judges scoring the same flights at the same time.  I would want nothing to do with that.  Not only would there be a problem with getting judges to participate, the entire Nats format with its multiple qualifying rounds, semifinals and finals is not the same as that used for the F2B events and would not be in compliance with the AMA requirement that FAI rules be followed.

There may be other alternatives to have the team selection at the Nats, but it is probably already too late to consider the Team Trials to be held in some way at the next Nats to select the 2014 team because of already existing scheduling problems.  

I should not have brought up the Nats option.  It is not a good idea.

Keith

Thanks Keith, I knew I read that last time but taking a quick glance last night I could not find that sentence or if I did it simply didn't register. I agree that trying to do both at the same time would be impossible. There are so many differences in the AMA and FAI patterns that it just wont work. I guess it could be held leading up to the Nats but it would have to be done on the grass circles and I am sure that nobody would go for that. Looks like it will stay the same for now.

Derek

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2012, 10:22:32 AM »
The Nat's and the TTs' are totally seperate events and shall not
be combined. One has nothing to do with the other. As for cost
per competitor this also has no bearing as to whether one would
go to either one. A true competitor will do what it takes to get
where he wants to go. Sure, we all would like to save a little money
but not at the expense of either contest. If you want to go to one
or the other or both you will figure out a way. As some one said
"This ain't rocket science!" I have no problem leaving things just
as they are.  RJ

There he is, How ya doin RJ?

I agree that most true competitors will do what it takes to compete. Sometimes with, kids, work, gas prices, and the poor economy it is hard for everyone to do what they want to do.

Derek

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2012, 10:31:11 AM »
Why not run the TT's before the NATS competition starts.   Most everybody is there on the weekend and flying as soon as the site is open.  Processing on Sunday, flying on Monday and Tuesday.   The NATS could still have their processing on Tuesday with flying starting on Wednesday and Thursday qualifying.  Friday top twenty and Saturday Jr, Sr and top five with the Walker flying.  Of course it may cut into some practice flying.   But, as big as Muncie is that should be no problem.

Yeah.... just try to get an extra 3 days of NATs time  for  CL flying !!

Randy

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2012, 10:38:07 AM »
I read through the AMA Blue Book and the FAI sporting code and I could not see anything that directly said that we couldn't use the Nats results to pick a team but it did refer back to the AMA for all the procedures. I do, however, think it is up to the Executive Committee to tell us how to do it. There is a lot of information spread around in a lot of different places so it takes a while to track it all down. I think Randy is correct because when I ran the Team Trials in 2011 I know that I read somewhere about the requirements for holding a team trials. I just cant remember where I read it. I was looking through my paperwork last night but never found it. I may look again...

Derek

Hi Derek

You need to go back and read it again., The AMA MANDATES that the TTs is to be run in a specific way, it also MANDATES that we use 6 judges in the finals , and 3 judges in the qualifying rounds, a different scoring system, with different rules, different specifications on maneuvers, and a different time limit.
The  SIGs (PAMPA)  has little to nothing to do with the TTs, and the contest is a very different one than what we fly at the NATs, with the AMA mandate and the Book that dictates how we are to run the TTS, it is impossible to run this at the NATs with 2 entirely different sets of judges or adding 3 days to the NATs schedule would be nearly impossible. BUt if by some miracle you could run it and pick the team From NATs finish, you would have to use FAI scoring and do away with the  APs  and  the Walker Trophy.
We cannot  change things as we see fit at the TTs as we could at the PAMPA run NATs.

Randy

Randy
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 01:09:35 PM by RandySmith »

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2012, 10:45:59 AM »
Hi Derek

You need to go back and read it again., The AMA MANDATES that is is to be ran in a specific way, it also MANDATES that we use 6 judges in the finals , and 3 judges in the qualifying rounds, a different scoring system, with different rules, different specifications on maneuvers, and a different time limit.
The  SIGs (PAMPA)  has little to nothing to do with the TTs, and the contest is a very different one than what we fly at the NATs, with the AMA mandate and the Book that dictates how we are to run the TTS, it is impossible to run this at the NATs with 2 entirely different sets of judges or adding 3 days to the NATs schedule would be nearly impossible.
We cannot  change things as we see fit at the TTs as we could at the PAMPA run NATs.

Randy

Randy

I know, Keith posted the most important sentence that I overlooked when I was reading through the Blue Book last night.

Offline Bob Whitely

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2012, 11:20:23 AM »
Derek and All, This was an interesting discussion. Back when I actually had
a job, usually 6 days a week, really, I also had to figure out how to go to
the Nat's, build a couple of hot rods, raise 2 great kids, go to the TTs, came
close to qualifying once or twice, married for 30+ years, rode a bunch of
motorcycles, did some drag racing, won the Super Street title in 1993
at Bakersfield with my '57 Bel Air, went to the Reno races a bunch of times,
had a 19' Tahiti jet and a big camper, went water skiing a lot, surfed a bunch,

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #95 on: September 13, 2012, 11:31:01 AM »
This stupid computer didn't let me finish. Managed to make every Nat's from
1969 until 1981 cause of the strike, then made the Nat's until 2004. Bottom line,
you do what ya gotta do to get it done.  I did it and I'm just a normal guy.
RJ



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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2012, 11:36:37 AM »
This stupid computer didn't let me finish. Managed to make every Nat's from
1969 until 1981 cause of the strike, then made the Nat's until 2004. Bottom line,
you do what ya gotta do to get it done.  I did it and I'm just a normal guy.
RJ




Me too buddy, minus a five year break to get married have kids and get divorced. I do what I have to do to get to the contest I want to go to. I am more fortunate than some...

Derek

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2012, 12:02:14 PM »
Me too buddy, minus a five year break to get married have kids and get divorced. I do what I have to do to get to the contest I want to go to. I am more fortunate than some...

Derek

Yeah, and some people get there even when their whole workshop and fleet have been destroyed by fire.

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2012, 12:06:57 PM »
Yeah, and some people get there even when their whole workshop and fleet have been destroyed by fire.

Yep.

Thanks Keith.

Derek

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Re: 2013 Nats date change
« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2012, 08:50:35 PM »
I have e-mailed AMA reps,etc. I also contacted the Pres of IRCHA via the link on their web page and asked if they would offer to hold the R/C Heli portion of the Nats on the 4th weekend /week, and let the C/L fliers they steamrolled have the non-holiday timeframe, especially since the IRCHA was coming back in a few weeksto use  the site again.

Won't help, but maybe his conscience will bother him enough to distract him , maybe even cause himto lose some sleep.
Bill Heher
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