stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Derek Barry on September 10, 2012, 10:29:50 AM
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I copied this from the other forum so that everyone who cares could have a chance to do something about this.
"The AMA has informed Brenda Schuette that they are considering changing the tentative dates for the 2013 CL Nats. The dates were July 14-20th.
They are looking at changing it to July 1-6th. The last time they had the Nats over the 4th week, participation was down and getting judges was impossible. Too many family plans and conflicts.
If you are considering attending next year's Nats, please call or E-mail the AMA and tell them what you think about having the dates in the first week of July.
You can contact the AMA and look up E-mails and phone numbers at the AMA web site:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/organization/hqstaff.aspx
David Fitzgerald"
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This too.
"To All:
I have more information. It seems that another group called Bob Brown and Dave Mathewson and complained about the dates, and it got changed. The following is a note from Brenda:
Dave,
Please rest assured that it was not me that changed the dates and I voiced my objection to this change too. I was not the one that proposed the change and it is my understanding that it was another group that called Bob Brown and Dave Mathewson and complained very loudly that caused the proposed change.
Brenda
I bet that if everyone that reads this note called and E-mailed these two individuals at AMA, that maybe we can have just as effective voice to change the dates back. So, if you are interested, here is the E-mail and phone number for Bob Brown:
Call the AMA at (800) 435-9262 - 1-800-I-FLY-AMA
Other than the main phone number, the contact list on the AMA site is sorely out of date. Bob Brown is listed in the AMA Model AViation as president, but there is no contact information for him listed anywhere I can find, either on the AMA web site or in the magazine.
Dave Mathewson: ext. 201 or davem@modelaircraft.org
I intend to call and E-mail both.
David Fitzgerald"
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Doug Moon, Bob Whitely, and I have allready sent emails in. If you are a Nats contestant and you feel like we have once again been given the shaft please send an Email to the AMA. We have until September the 15th to get our point across. The more people that contact the AMA about this the better.
Thanks
Derek
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Yes, please email the AMA at the above mentioned email address and let them know the dates should have stayed as posted. We have had more than our fair share of flying on or around the 4th of July.
It seems it could be possible to rotate the events that are normally flown in July so everyone has their turn.
Thanks
Doug
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I read over on SSW that Dave Mathewson and Bob Brown are out of town at this time.
If you would please forward your concerns about the Nats date changes to Joyce Hager at jhager@modelaircraft.org
We need to have our voices heard before 9/15/2012, yes that is this Saturday! (payday :) )
Thanks
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I also sent one to Greg Hahn. He's been quite helpful in the past.
Dave
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Dave Mathewson and Bob Brown are out of town, not on Pluto....I am certain that they have access to email.
Also, I suggest contacting your AMA District VP.
Have fun!
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Dave Mathewson and Bob Brown are out of town, not on Pluto....I am certain that they have access to email.
Also, I suggest contacting your AMA District VP.
Have fun!
Yeah, I am pretty certain they're not on Pluto. I would agree with you there.
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I have sent emails to everyone at AMA, and I will be at the Nats planning meeting and if need be, I will share my opinion.
The US Nationals should always take 1st place when planning the AMA site calender year...........!
Blessings
Allen
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To All:
There have been a few developments. I'm afraid that the schedule has been all but set.
Here is a letter I sent to my AMA District 10 rep on the AMA EC.
Dear Mr. Tougas,
I don’t know if you remember me, but we have traded E-mails occasionally over the last couple of years. I ran the CLPA Aerobatics event at this year’s Nats, and will be running it again for 2013.
Unfortunately, I am very upset over a proposed change in the dates of the 2013 US Nats. I have spoken with Joyce Hagar, Brenda Schuette, Dave Mathewson, Dave Guerin, and tried to find contact info for Bob Brown, who seems to not want to be contacted.
Basically, the IRCHA (R/C Helicopter accosiation) met with Dave Mathewson, and Bob Brown. They got together at this last Nats and decided that they want their Helicopter Jamboree the first week of August. This severely impacted the proposed dates of the 2013 Nats. It has the effect of moving everything 2 weeks forward, or more to the point, moving the CL Nats to the first week of July, over the 4th holiday. It is extremely difficult to run the event over the holiday. Attendance will be down, and it will be impossible to recruit volunteers to run the event. Too many family conflicts.
Dave Guerin is particularly upset because the Nats is supposed to be run independent of the AMA and the EC. He said that the EC handed him the decision of the IRCHA.
I guess you and the EC have to decide if an outside event is more important than the US Nats.
Dave Guerin is the Nats manager: dtguerin.guerin@gmail.com
Bob Brown is the AMA President: amadiii@atlanticbb.net or bobb@modelaircraft.org
Dave Mathewson is the AMA Executive Driector: davem@modelaircraft.org
Brenda Schuette is the CL Category manager: blschuette@cox.net
Joyce Hagar is the AMA Staff Director: jhager@modelaircraft.org
Saturday Spetember 15th is the Nats planning meeting. After this it will be too late to effect change.
I do not go to Stunt Hangar,not enough time in the day. If some one would post this information there, that would be great.
David Fitzgerald
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I have sent e-mails also. This is really disappointing and has a very negative effect
my Summer schedule next year.
Steve
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Nothing like sending E-Mails to people that only think of the money that can be made instead of the good of the people. If we had the number of people flying Control Line and spending the money that the RC pilots with their rotary wing toys spend, we could dictate the dates we wanted. Goes for the manufacturers also as all they think about is the money they can rake in with the toys they sell.
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Remember that this schedule change affects all control line disciplines... voice your opinion!
-Chris
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Remember that this schedule change affects all control line disciplines... voice your opinion!
-Chris
Actually it affects the entire Nats because it is a outside event (a helicopter fun fly) that is pushing everything forward. It is ridiculous!!!!
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http://ircha.org/
Apparently it is already official.
Derek
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I sent this to the president of the IRCHA.
Dear Dave,
My name is Derek Barry I have been a member of the AMA for over 20 years and have been a Nats competitor for just about as many. I want to express my extreme discontent with your organization. For some reason you think that your 2013 Jamboree is more important than the US Nationals. Somehow you managed to convince someone in the AMA (who had no right to do so) to change the dates for your event, which is in direct conflict with the prescheduled AMA Nationals. There are a lot of very unhappy people because of this date change. As Control Line Pilots we have had to fly during the week of July 4th more than any other discipline and we as a group are tired of it. I assure you that everything that can be done is being done to get the dates changed back to what they were originally were. I would ask that you cooperate with us and the AMA to fix this problem. The AMA Nationals should have precedent over any other AMA function.
Derek Barry
AMA 233413
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president@ircha.org
This is his email, feel free to flame him too. His name is Dave Millner.
Derek
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Derek...
Flaming will do no good.....
I have received a half dozen emails regarding the scheduling.....and a very valid point was made.
Yes, the entire Nats is being shoved around to accommodate this fun fly.....
BUT, a more valid point is that the Control Line events seem to receive a disproportionate allotment of the July 4th weekend. I think this is where the control line community should make a stand. Apparently the Academy feels that the July 4th weekend should be part of the Nats.....even though there are added direct expenses to them (staffing). If they continue to believe that the July 4th weekend be part of the Nats, I believe that there should be a fair apportionment of participation among the various disciplines of air modeling.
I have no hard facts to present to the Academy supporting the claim that we (control line fliers) have been assigned the 4th weekend more frequently than others...does anyone?
Have fun!
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I know that two out of the last four have been on the 4th for us. I also know that it has been on the 4th a at least twice more than that since 2002. Probably more.
Derek
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Flaming may not accomplish anything but at least they know that I think they are assholes. That's good enough for me.
Derek
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Derek:
Here is a reply I received from an AMA officer...
Hi Rich:
I understand your concern but neither the Executive Council nor myself have direct say over the NATS schedule. The Executive Council didn't move the C/L NATS as we don't get involved in this. The EC did ask the NATS Management Committee and Dave Guerin to see what could be done to try to accommodate IRCHA's long standing desire to move their date to the first part of August. It is the NATS Management Committee that sets the NATS schedule. I also know that no matter what happens, change or not, there are people that won't be happy the decisions that are made.
Rich, IRCHA attracts over 1,000 pilots, plus family members that attend this week long event. It is the largest gathering in Muncie each year, and it is continually growing. IRCHA has wanted to move their dates because of the fact that many of their members can't attend because of school starting mid August in some areas of the country. Another reason the EC asked the NATS Committee to see what could be done with the IRCHA event is because helicopters are the fastest growing segment of our hobby, with many young members involved. We certainly aren't trying to negatively impact the C/L people, but hoping to accommodate the largest number of AMA members possible. I have copied Bob Brown and Dave Mathewson in this response in the event they have additional information they can provide. I do appreciate you writing. Feel free to contact me at any time.
Best Regards,
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Sounds like AMA is setting precedent to say at some future time: "Dear C/L, we are tossing you out of the Nats because we can get 1000 paying park flyers that week instead. Have a nice life, hugs and kisses, the AMA"
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Why not put the elite rotor pilots on the week of the 4th. Then they could have a really big family reunion. But, like I have stated, money talks. I missed too many family gatherings because of NATS scheduling, not any more.
Isn't it about time we have our own Control Line NATS separate from all the EC money spenders. Too bad we can't get an insurance company to support our control line community and let us move around the country. The Control Line SIGS run the events now and I think we could support our own NATS. Why do we need trophies down to 10th place in some events and only one or two for others.
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Sounds like AMA is setting precedent to say at some future time: "Dear C/L, we are tossing you out of the Nats because we can get 1000 paying park flyers that week instead. Have a nice life, hugs and kisses, the AMA"
BINGO!
Thats what I heard. "bla bla bla, those helicopter guys are way more important than you control line guys and the entire Nationals for that matter. Have a nice day"
Derek
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I don't know the new Nats Manager - Is he a chopper pilot? This is the first year in what? 40? without Ron Morgan.
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Well, we can always write the NATs sponsors and suggest they drop support if the event dates are July 4th week.
I doubt the IRCHA guys support SIG, APC, Aircraft Spruce, Balsa USA, Jett, etc.
I know I will be breaking fewer APC 9x4 props if the NATs dates for C/L Combat are July 4th week!
-Chris
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From Motions of the AMA EC, October 29, 2011
"It was moved, seconded and approved by unanimous acclamation that IRCHA be given any timeframe in August 2013 to hold their Jamboree. Those dates must be received by the AMA Executive Director by January 7, 2012. "
http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/Organization/ec/1011ecmotions.aspx
Said dates are not in minutes of January 8, 2012 meeting. Or any other for that matter.
http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/organization/ec/0112ecminutes.aspx
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Here's the email I sent to all the addresses Dave F. had listed.
Hello,
As a member of AMA for many years and a nats participant, I strongly object to the change of dates for the c/l nats. July 4 should NOT be used for ANY part of the nats out of respect for the celebration of our great nation's establishment on that date.
Should AMA decide to eliminate the c/l community's desires in favor of IRCHA, it proves once again that only numbers and money counts with an organization that supposedly serves ALL disciplines within the sport/hobby.
What a shame, and shame on YOU!
Disgustedly and disappointedly,
Will R Hinton
AMA300421
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Well said Will!
Derek
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The question I have ,are those resonsible in elected positions ? If so maybe you AMA members may be able to extract a bit of ballot box revenge. Just saying . Vote early , vote often .
Brad LaPointe
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Well I've voiced my displeasure to the AMA via emails to the usual suspects. Obviously we are out clouted-sad that a relatively johnnie come lately(IRCHA) organizatiosn trumps 65+ year old events. Why couldn't that organization schedule in June or early July. Maybe its time to look at possiblilties of getting away from the AMA and starting over.
Doug
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Perhaps it's time to "secede from the union". Unfortunately, I just renewed with the Academy of Mostly ARFs -- possibly for the final time.
Just sayin'....
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I think it might be a great time to have the powers that be in PAMPA propose a "rotating" CLPA Nats....the Academy has flat out stated that they can do without CL....
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I would rather see the nats in September
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A September date pretty much leaves out kiddie stunt
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The grass is not always greener on the other side. Think about the world champs.
It rotates around every other year and all you here about is trouble. Logistics, practice space and on and on. And they have two years to prepare. We are talking year to year.
Each year you are going to have a new venue to secure and a whole new host of problems to contend with. AND NO AMA BACKING!!! And that doesn't include getting volunteers for each new area. I know in some areas the volunteers might go up but in other areas it might go down. What then?
As it stands now we have a secured site that is WAY WAY more than adequate for the numbers we bring in every year. This past year I could walk up to the Lpad and get a practice flight within 30 minutes or less anytime I wanted outside of the contest times. It's awesome! We have a support organization on site should there be any issues above the contest that need sorting out.
I think this motion to move the nats around is the fastest way to start the DEATH of it for good. Please think way ahead before you start getting this ball rolling.
CLPA is a smaller group and we can get pushed around because if it for sure. Yeah, that sucks. But we need to bring solutions to the table instead of just constant complaining. Constant complaining will only get you the boot that much faster. Yesterday when I sent my communication to the AMA I also stated we should look at rotating the disciplines throughout the month so we each share the burden of the 4th of July. That leaves the site open all of August for other larger flyin/conntests. I am certain the nats scheduling is a logistical nightmare. Especially with CL site right in the middle of the venue. That hurts because of flyovers for safety reasons. The AMA site is massive. If there were another full pavilion and paved runway in the back where the Nats helicopters perform we could compete back there and it would not interfere with RC flyovers. Just a thought..... The Jamboree is never going away. And I hope it doesn't for the sake of the site. I am no fun fly fan for sure but I have seen the spectator turnout alone this thing brings and it is freaking impressive. Its good for the site for all disciplines to use it all the time.
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A September date pretty much leaves out kiddie stunt
how many kids were entered last year? under 18
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Doug:
I appreciate the points that you make...
I have long held that the Nats should be the week prior to the Team Trials, in Muncie, and on even years, rotate around the Country.
In no particular order: NW...SE....NE....SW.....Texas....then again....
Such a rotation would enhance the event: drawing people that are relatively close to a venue.
Have fun!
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Here's the reply I received from Joyce Hagar and my reply.
From: Joyce Hager
Date: 9/11/2012 2:16:20 PM
To: wilhint
Subject: RE: nats
I understand your concern and I know you are aware that I have received many emails on this subject. You may not know the process that takes place. First of all AMA HQ does not make up the Nats schedule. The Nats Management Committee normally puts together two or three versions and then submits it to the Special Interest Groups at the Nats Planning Meeting which will be held on Saturday. A discussion will be had and then the schedule is voted on. Your Pampa representative is Allen Goff
As to IRCHA, yes the EC voted on the fact that IRCHA could choose a date in August for the Helicopter Jamboree. The dates are July 29th – August 4. I am not sure that was the reason someone wanted to change the dates of your event. As to money. We don’t receive money for that event being here. They do rent equipment from us but that is no different than any other event. We do not receive a portion of what they collect or what they charge their vendors. So it can’t be about money and it takes a lot of work on the part of the Maint. crew. So I am sorry you are disgusted and disappointed, but you need to be sure who you should be disappointed in.
From: wilhint [mailto:wilhint@roadrunner.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 12:27 PM
To: Joyce Hager
Subject: nats
There are a huge number of IRCHA members who pay their dues, many more than the c/l community. I don't buy that the EC isn't aware of this and I don't buy that they don't have clout when it comes to the nats planning. I have heard the horror stories of political maneuvering at the AMA headquarters from many I trust. So, when does c/l get the "blank check" to choose their dates? That's what you gave IRCHA. And, as you pointed out, that WAS the EC.
Sorry, there's still egg on the EC's face.
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It looks like Speed is falling off, if so we just gained two more paved cirlce access?
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It looks like Speed is falling off, if so we just gained two more paved cirlce access?
Well, that is pretty rude and offensive to the Speed guys. And I don't fly speed. n1
-Chris
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Well, that is pretty rude and offensive to the Speed guys. And I don't fly speed. n1
-Chris
Whoa I made a mistake there. I meant to say racing. This year and last year I went by the racing circles and the participation was down.
I will change my original post as well.
No, it's not rude and offensive. It's the truth. Participation was down. I was told that to my face.
The point of my post was we have a spectacular venue now. If we were to decide to leave it would be very hard to get back to it if ever need be. The AMA would take our slot and fill it with something else for sure.
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Well, maybe we have different opinions of things but I don't think it is very nice to look at a decline in Racing as an opportunity for Stunt.
That is what the original post says to me.
"It looks like Speed is falling off, if so we just gained two more paved cirlce access?"
That is the statement to which I was referring.
Sorry to get off topic, we are supposed to be talking about NATS schedule.
-Chris
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Well, maybe we have different opinions of things but I don't think it is very nice to look at a decline in Racing as an opportunity for Stunt.
That is what the original post says to me.
"It looks like Speed is falling off, if so we just gained two more paved cirlce access?"
That is the statement to which I was referring.
Sorry to get off topic, we are supposed to be talking about NATS schedule.
-Chris
I can see that. I took it out of my original post so it wont go over wrong.
I already mentioned in my original post that we have plenty of space now and practice time is very accessible for any who want it.
Yes we are supposed to talking about nats scheduling, but, as you know threads tend to twist around a bit. Whenever there is an issue with the nats here comes Rich and some others about breaking off of the AMA and traveling it all around. I just wanted to make a point that we have the venue plenty big enough for ALL of CL at this time. To walk away from it would not be in our best interest. Securing another venue like this one elsewhere each and every year is going to be a job all to itself. Leaving Muncie just made running the CLPA and or other CL events if they chose to come too alot harder for the same pay.
I think it would also not be very beneficial for the smaller CL events that want to stay at Muncie. The smaller an event the less attention it gets correct? Well, the pushing around the schedule and whatever else that makes people upset will only get worse.
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Doug...
I wasn't saying anything about a lack of space....
It seems to me that a whole bunch of people enjoyed the Nats being at different military bases across the Country...."the good old days"...
Have fun!
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Doug...
I wasn't saying anything about a lack of space....
It seems to me that a whole bunch of people enjoyed the Nats being at different military bases across the Country...."the good old days"...
Have fun!
True, true.
I can see that.
Oh yeah, I am having fun! :) :) :)
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Doug...
I wasn't saying anything about a lack of space....
It seems to me that a whole bunch of people enjoyed the Nats being at different military bases across the Country...."the good old days"...
Have fun!
NAVY Bases! H^^
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Whoa I made a mistake there. I meant to say racing. This year and last year I went by the racing circles and the participation was down.
I will change my original post as well.
No, it's not rude and offensive. It's the truth. Participation was down. I was told that to my face.
The point of my post was we have a spectacular venue now. If we were to decide to leave it would be very hard to get back to it if ever need be. The AMA would take our slot and fill it with something else for sure.
Sir,
Were all in this together, stunt, speed, racing, combat, carrier, scale.
Our off site moderator watches over us.
Thanks, for the updated post sir.
Patrick Hempel
AMA C.D. 56526
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The bottom line here guys is that the AMA and all it's subsidiary functions have gotten used to pushing Control Line around because of the smaller numbers we represent, and they have always gotten away with it. I hear them laughing out loud every time WE complain about something.
Get used to it...it isn't going to change.
We get hind tit and have for the last 40 years or so.
Writing e-mails and complaining is just so much wasted time.
If we keep joining the AMA what we get is what we get!
We need to come up with an alternative insurance plan, even if it is considerably more expensive and tell the "Park Fliers Anonymous" to kiss our collective Asses.
Nothing else will ever fly!!
No I don't have any solutions but then apparently neither does anyone else. Complaining to an organization that secretly laughs up their sleeve at us certainly gets us nowhere!!!
Randy Cuberly HB~> HB~> n1
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Can't speak for anyone else, of course -- but I'm done.
After 2013, will no longer (since 1951) be a member of the Academy of Mostly Arfs.
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Can't speak for anyone else, of course -- but I'm done.
After 2013, will no longer (since 1951) be a member of the Academy of Mostly Arfs.
Mike,
If at some point I decide not to fly competitively I will do the same. I don't need those jerks to have fun just flying CL for sport.
Their insurance is only secondary coverage anyway.
Randy C.
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Leaving the AMA is just not an option for some of us. The Walker Cup is the highest achievement in stunt as far as I am concerned and it can only be won at the AMA Nationals.
Rich, Making the team trials and Nats a two week event is a dumb idea. Some of us (I would be willing to say a lot of us) cant get that much time off of work at one time. I can take a week off and then a month later a couple days but with my job it is not easy to take that much time off at once. A worlds trip every few years is the best I can do. Doug also made a good point about not moving the Nats around. I didn't mind seeing new places and going to the traveling Nats but those days have passed and the Muncie site is better than any one of the other places that we traveled to. That and the AMA is not going to let the traveling Nats come back anyways. By the way, why do you care?
Derek
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Derek...
I want to see the event grow and prosper...
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Derek...
I want to see the event grow and prosper...
Not sure I agree with your solutions...
Derek
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That means for any sanctioned contest, be it FF, CL and RC, you will not be allowed to fly or take part. In the old days I could depend on the NATS being close for me every other year. Now the NATS is only just a little further every year. I can feel for the people from the west coast. I remember one friend saying it took them a week to get to Chicopee MASS for that NATS. I can also see Sparky's suggestion for a September NATS. How many school age kids are going to the NATS now as competitors. My youngsters have grown up and I can't get the grandkids going any more. But, in the long run, we have Muncie and lets keep it. We also need to get more participation in CL.
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That means for any sanctioned contest, be it FF, CL and RC, you will not be allowed to fly or take part. In the old days I could depend on the NATS being close for me every other year. Now the NATS is only just a little further every year. I can feel for the people from the west coast. I remember one friend saying it took them a week to get to Chicopee MASS for that NATS. I can also see Sparky's suggestion for a September NATS. How many school age kids are going to the NATS now as competitors. My youngsters have grown up and I can't get the grandkids going any more. But, in the long run, we have Muncie and lets keep it. We also need to get more participation in CL.
My son flew in Junior last year. If we make it impossible for them to come then we will most certainly lose any that might show up in the future.
September is no good.
Derek
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If the copter event is in August then what is taking OUR week? If it's another R/C event why can't THEY take the first week in July. Is a proposed calendar anywhere to be looked at?
Dave
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If I remember correctly, a large group of modelers tried several years back to organize their own answer to AMA, including insurance, and failed miserably to be successful. We have what we have, and I believe our best approach to the problem is to stand up and fight for our rights/privileges.
My latest answer from Joyce Hager was one of understanding and concern, and I think if we fight hard enough, there may be others who will listen. How successful that is likely to be, I don't know, but if you smack a bully hard enough to break his nose, even if he licks you then, he'll think twice before bothering you again.
We simply need to stand our ground, and I, personally, don't think quitting is the answer if we fly competition. Just my opinion.
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Everyone but me seems to be getting replies from the AMA. I tried to be as nice as I could be but you all know me, it probably didn't appear that way to the receiving end...
Derek
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Everyone but me seems to be getting replies from the AMA. I tried to be as nice as I could be but you all know me, it probably didn't appear that way to the receiving end...
Derek
Check your junk mail. Your email settings might be flagging it for some reason and sticking it there.
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OK once again the AMA is offending its founding members. So what can we do about it? It appears to me that most of you have already done the correct things. The results of your efforts are disappointing. Not your fault. So It remains to be said that we all need to get out of the AMA. Yes I mean it. Looks like the Tampa Bay Line fliers contest in November will be the last contest for me. So what am I losing? A magizine that I throw in the trash can every month after I scan it for something of interest to me. In 2013 there will be no contests for me. This is going to hurt the clubs who put on the contests and the communities that host them. The cottage vendors will also be hurt by this by lost sales. In deed the clubs them selves will be hurt and perhaps fold up. As for the Nats they to will lose. So but for the AMA catering to outsider non members I do not care. There must be a way to get us insurance that helps the clubs to put on a contest. Just have non sanctioned events? We all mostly have home owners policies does that help? I'm just saying.
Chuck
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Chuck
There is some wise saying about babys and bathwater that fits here...
It sounds to me like the Academy is stepping on more toes than just control line fliers...
Have fun!
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Something I will mention here since it has been mentioned before.
Can we run the NATS and Team Trials concurrently? Those flying for a team spot declare before the meet and pay whatever fee that it carries. Then the top three (and alternates) are those who declare for the team ahead of time and finish highest. Judges are in place and it would eliminate the need for a separate Team Trials. The variation in scoring by FAI and AMA standards doesn't seem to me to be a problem. We are simply picking the best three of those who desire to be on the team.
Down side?
Bill
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Something I will mention here since it has been mentioned before.
Can we run the NATS and Team Trials concurrently? Those flying for a team spot declare before the meet and pay whatever fee that it carries. Then the top three (and alternates) are those who declare for the team ahead of time and finish highest. Judges are in place and it would eliminate the need for a separate Team Trials. The variation in scoring by FAI and AMA standards doesn't seem to me to be a problem. We are simply picking the best three of those who desire to be on the team.
Down side?
Bill
Sadly it does not work like that. A FAI team has to be picked under specific guidelines, they include using the FAI scoring system, judges that are voted on by the contest board, and a few other things that I cannot think of right this second. It would, however, be nice to not have to make two trips to Muncie every other year. Just ask Brett how he feels about that.
Derek
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Thanks for clarifying the rules, and procedures.
Bill
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Something I will mention here since it has been mentioned before.
Can we run the NATS and Team Trials concurrently? Those flying for a team spot declare before the meet and pay whatever fee that it carries. Then the top three (and alternates) are those who declare for the team ahead of time and finish highest. Judges are in place and it would eliminate the need for a separate Team Trials. The variation in scoring by FAI and AMA standards doesn't seem to me to be a problem. We are simply picking the best three of those who desire to be on the team.
Down side?
Bill
That is not allowed
Randy
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Doug...
I wasn't saying anything about a lack of space....
It seems to me that a whole bunch of people enjoyed the Nats being at different military bases across the Country...."the good old days"...
Have fun!
Yep !!!!! Navy bases
we have one in Jacksonville,Fl (Whitehouse OLF) That has 6000' of runway we have used over the years for contests like
The King Orange International matter of fact I have a request letter in to the Navy to reserve the site for three days in January for the 2013 contest.
This would be a great site for the NATS.
LynnWeedman X47 Flyers
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At one time I had thought the same thing and sent letters to EAA and they will carry our insurance. However the AMA is still the governing body for model aircraft. You have to be a AMA member first to fly for FAI team trials. The AMA is the US Representative for the FAI board.
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The AMA is the US Representative for the FAI board.
And who voted them in? AMA is a private organization, not a government entity. What would be the mechanism to have another body represent F2 interests to the FAI?
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And who voted them in? AMA is a private organization, not a government entity. What would be the mechanism to have another body represent F2 interests to the FAI?
I dont know how it works thats all I can tell you I found out.
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It seems to me we'll have to work with what we have. Hard enough to muster help for a local contest, let alone some new national organization and to have another contest to call the NATS... No Walker Cup etc., well...just not a nats to me.
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Sadly it does not work like that. A FAI team has to be picked under specific guidelines, they include using the FAI scoring system, judges that are voted on by the contest board, and a few other things that I cannot think of right this second. It would, however, be nice to not have to make two trips to Muncie every other year. Just ask Brett how he feels about that.
Derek
Derek, I am not picking on you, but chose your statement to try to explain something here.
Actually, there are no guidelines/requirements that specify how any "Team" is selected to represent a "country/national aerosport organization" for any FAI aeromodeling world championship. The FAI is the governing body that oversees international sport aviation activities. Here in the US, the NAA governs all of the activities regarding the US participation in any FAI sanctioned sport aviation activity. Our AMA, as a part of the NAA, oversees the US participation in any FAI sanctioned event. In turn, the AMA will solicit bids for a team selection process. In most cases, the AMA has established a team selection committee to initiate the process to establish a team selection program. Also, in most cases, the AMA through those specific team selection committees will work with the relevant Special Interest Groups (SIG's, in our case PAMPA) to actually administer whatever team selection program is chosen. Over the years, before and after PAMPA was created, our F2B teams have always been selected by a single team selection finals where FAI rules and scoring are used. Actually, though it is almost unimaginable that it would ever happen, the AMA could establish a world championship team just by appointment of the team members. (This is highly unlikely in today's environment where the AMA is looking for excuses to eliminate teams to the world championships.) Instead, almost universally, the AMA depends on the AMA team selection committees and SIGs to determine the makeup of a team to the world championships.
There is absolutely no requirement that any special, single event team selection finals program be held to establish any of the AMA world championship teams. For our F2B teams, we have always held a single FAI F2B Team Selection finals (though I am not too sure about the process in the early days of FIA CL World Championships which started in 1960). The team selection process is determined by the respective team selection committees, approved by the AMA. There is nothing in that process that requires any separate team selection finals. It is possible that an F2B team could be selected based on the results of our Nationals or any contest for that matter or just by the team selection committee submitting names (no contest or finals) if the process were approved by the AMA.
To most in our CL Aerobatics community, it makes sense to hold a separate team finals, using FAI rules where the primary difference is in the scoring systems used (10-40 points per maneuver, pattern points, and appearance points for AMA scoring vs 0-10 points with K factors, different penalties for incorrectly flown maneuvers, and no appearance points for the FAI system). It has been argued that whoever flies the best pattern will be scored the highest, regardless of the scoring system. There is some merit to that argument. However, because of the K factors for the more "difficult" maneuvers, the FAI system puts a premium on flying those portions of the pattern better so a top score in one system might not translate to a top score with the other system.
In the past, our FAI scale teams have been selected based on performance in the AMA Nats scale events. That could be done now to select our F2B teams, but so far, those overseeing the "process" has determined not to do so. Some of the details would have to be worked out, like what to do with appearance points and pattern points, what kind of qualification process (if any, there are options) to use, but the Nats could well be used to select our F2B team, either based on the Nats event itself, or hold a separate event before or after the Nats.
The F2B Team Selection Committee will soon need to initiate the process for the program next year. There are many things and options to consider.
Keith
By the way, the procedures for the AMA World Championshp teams can be reviewed at
http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/teaminfo.aspx
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Selecting the team at the nats is something I have wondered about for a while.
Just go with me here for a minute.
We have some very talented individuals among who know the ins and outs of the ever so infamous Excel!
With their kind of computing prowess we could quite possibly pick the team at the nats.
The team would be selected on Friday, or whatever day, the Top 20 is flown.
The scores are input into the nats program as normal. The final placings are put out as normal and the Top 5 for the flyoff are selected as normal.
At the same time once the scores for the AMA contest are calculated the program can convert each maneuver score from 10-40 to 0-10 and apply K-factors accordingly. Remove appearance and pattern points and total it up for the FAI score of each flight. Post the FAI scores for each pilot next to their AMA score. BOOM, the top 3 are the team. Once the top 3 are selected they and the next 2 or 3 alternates will be told to be sure to have your schedule under 7 minutes per FAI rules. Practice your square eights and your hourglass. Go and make us proud!
One thing I cant seem to get around is the BOM. It is not a requirement for FAI but it is for 322. That means to make it to the team selection final 20 you would have had to adhere to the BOM.... I don't think that is the right way to go about it. I would think we would want all the possible flyers available to fly under FAI rules to be able to try out for the team.
Since we are now going to have Expert at the nats and it is a non BOM event there has to be a way to combine it.
I guess it really depends on the number of entries into the Expert category. If the finals for expert is just 10 flyers or 8 flyers then they could be combined into the top 20. Adding 4 or 5 flights to each circle on Friday morning would not push the contest to far back. With no delays the two rounds would still be completed by late morning. Both the Open and Expert guys would be judged by the same set of judges for the Top 5 flyoff, the Expert winner, and the Team. It sounds like a lot but really the main work is done by the program and the programer.
Just thinking out loud.....
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If I remember correctly, a large group of modelers tried several years back to organize their own answer to AMA, including insurance, and failed miserably to be successful. We have what we have, and I believe our best approach to the problem is to stand up and fight for our rights/privileges.
My latest answer from Joyce Hager was one of understanding and concern, and I think if we fight hard enough, there may be others who will listen. How successful that is likely to be, I don't know, but if you smack a bully hard enough to break his nose, even if he licks you then, he'll think twice before bothering you again.
We simply need to stand our ground, and I, personally, don't think quitting is the answer if we fly competition. Just my opinion.
Nice thoughts Will...However in this case the Bully is so big you can't even reach his nose!
Joyce Hager is a nice lady with no authority to do anything. The "leadership" of AMA is only concerned with keeping their jobs and that means placating the majority. They have absolutely no reason to do otherwise.
Sure they're mostly nice people and will do what they can for us poor relations but if there is a conflict with the big boys (R/C anything) we will, as always, be treated as second class citizens. No questions asked! I'm sure you noticed we weren't even asked for our opinion.
Those of us that fly competition might as well "SHUT UP" and take what we get. I "garuntee" no amount of fighting or complaining is going to have any effect on the outcome.
We stay with the AMA we just take our lumps and SHUT UP. Be happy with the bones and leftovers. That's the story...has been for the last 30 years and will be for the next 50 or more unless of course CL just shrivels up and dies with all us old guys...Hey I think that's what they are waiting for...
Randy Cuberly D>K D>K
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Derek, I am not picking on you, but chose your statement to try to explain something here.
Actually, there are no guidelines/requirements that specify how any "Team" is selected to represent a "country/national aerosport organization" for any FAI aeromodeling world championship. The FAI is the governing body that oversees international sport aviation activities. Here in the US, the NAA governs all of the activities regarding the US participation in any FAI sanctioned sport aviation activity. Our AMA, as a part of the NAA, oversees the US participation in any FAI sanctioned event. In turn, the AMA will solicit bids for a team selection process. In most cases, the AMA has established a team selection committee to initiate the process to establish a team selection program. Also, in most cases, the AMA through those specific team selection committees will work with the relevant Special Interest Groups (SIG's, in our case PAMPA) to actually administer whatever team selection program is chosen. Over the years, before and after PAMPA was created, our F2B teams have always been selected by a single team selection finals where FAI rules and scoring are used. Actually, though it is almost unimaginable that it would ever happen, the AMA could establish a world championship team just by appointment of the team members. (This is highly unlikely in today's environment where the AMA is looking for excuses to eliminate teams to the world championships.) Instead, almost universally, the AMA depends on the AMA team selection committees and SIGs to determine the makeup of a team to the world championships.
There is absolutely no requirement that any special, single event team selection finals program be held to establish any of the AMA world championship teams. For our F2B teams, we have always held a single FAI F2B Team Selection finals (though I am not too sure about the process in the early days of FIA CL World Championships which started in 1960). The team selection process is determined by the respective team selection committees, approved by the AMA. There is nothing in that process that requires any separate team selection finals. It is possible that an F2B team could be selected based on the results of our Nationals or any contest for that matter or just by the team selection committee submitting names (no contest or finals) if the process were approved by the AMA.
To most in our CL Aerobatics community, it makes sense to hold a separate team finals, using FAI rules where the primary difference is in the scoring systems used (10-40 points per maneuver, pattern points, and appearance points for AMA scoring vs 0-10 points with K factors, different penalties for incorrectly flown maneuvers, and no appearance points for the FAI system). It has been argued that whoever flies the best pattern will be scored the highest, regardless of the scoring system. There is some merit to that argument. However, because of the K factors for the more "difficult" maneuvers, the FAI system puts a premium on flying those portions of the pattern better so a top score in one system might not translate to a top score with the other system.
In the past, our FAI scale teams have been selected based on performance in the AMA Nats scale events. That could be done now to select our F2B teams, but so far, those overseeing the "process" has determined not to do so. Some of the details would have to be worked out, like what to do with appearance points and pattern points, what kind of qualification process (if any, there are options) to use, but the Nats could well be used to select our F2B team, either based on the Nats event itself, or hold a separate event before or after the Nats.
The F2B Team Selection Committee will soon need to initiate the process for the program next year. There are many things and options to consider.
Keith
By the way, the procedures for the AMA World Championshp teams can be reviewed at
http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/teaminfo.aspx
Hi Keith
I have to say this ,That is really not the case, and is not so, In reality,The AMA controls the Team Selection and MANDATES that it be ran in a certain form, they even have published a " BOOK"
That spells out "how" the team is to be picked, and how it is to be administered, PAMPA has little to do with the TTs and team selection. as it does have much to do with running the NATs, we have much leadway in changing the NATs as we see fit, not so at the Team Trials.
We are not allowed to change anything unless we get permission from the AMA. and they do mandate how we do this at the TTs, and do not at the NATs.
I think as you may remember, years ago a person thought that we could do whatever we want in running the TTs and was stopped on the spot.
The AMA's Procedures BOOK on how to run the team selection contest does have to be followed.
And as a matter of fact something happened this year that could have bee a differant situation "if" we did not "have to follow the mandate by the AMA, we had team members that had to bailout on the World Championships, The AMA was asked "if" they would appoint another team member that could go to fill the void, They said NO, the only way the person could go was to have been qualified at the AMA U.S Team Selection contest for the F2B team
Regards
Randy Smith
AMA TSC Chairman
AMA Dist 5 rep TSC
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I read through the AMA Blue Book and the FAI sporting code and I could not see anything that directly said that we couldn't use the Nats results to pick a team but it did refer back to the AMA for all the procedures. I do, however, think it is up to the Executive Committee to tell us how to do it. There is a lot of information spread around in a lot of different places so it takes a while to track it all down. I think Randy is correct because when I ran the Team Trials in 2011 I know that I read somewhere about the requirements for holding a team trials. I just cant remember where I read it. I was looking through my paperwork last night but never found it. I may look again...
Derek
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I am thinking out loud too. Could the Nats flights be used IF we have a second set of judges scoring with the FAI system for those who would like to be part of the trials? ( two sets of judges for those particular flights.)
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Why not run the TT's before the NATS competition starts. Most everybody is there on the weekend and flying as soon as the site is open. Processing on Sunday, flying on Monday and Tuesday. The NATS could still have their processing on Tuesday with flying starting on Wednesday and Thursday qualifying. Friday top twenty and Saturday Jr, Sr and top five with the Walker flying. Of course it may cut into some practice flying. But, as big as Muncie is that should be no problem.
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Why not run the TT's before the NATS competition starts. Most everybody is there on the weekend and flying as soon as the site is open. Processing on Sunday, flying on Monday and Tuesday. The NATS could still have their processing on Tuesday with flying starting on Wednesday and Thursday qualifying. Friday top twenty and Saturday Jr, Sr and top five with the Walker flying. Of course it may cut into some practice flying. But, as big as Muncie is that should be no problem.
I was kinda thinking the same thing...
Derek
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I am thinking out loud too. Could the Nats flights be used IF we have a second set of judges scoring with the FAI system for those who would like to be part of the trials? ( two sets of judges for those particular flights.)
That seems like more work. When you could just have the computer process the scores and convert to FAI scoring with the stroke of the enter key.
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That seems like more work. When you could just have the computer process the scores and convert to FAI scoring with the stroke of the enter key.
The problem with all of the is the finer points of the FAI pattern such as, the time, the flight becoming official when the plane is released, the lap and a half before the overheads, and the landing procedure. It has to be AMA or FAI it can't be both. As Keith pointed out the main reason to make the team using FAI rules is to pick a team that will theoretically be competitive using that system. I do not believe that it is as easy as just hitting the enter key. The FAI pattern also goes down to 0 basically a 100 point scoring contests when you factor in the decimal places. AMA is 10-40.
Derek
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The problem with all of the is the finer points of the FAI pattern such as, the time, the flight becoming official when the plane is released, the lap and a half before the overheads, and the landing procedure. It has to be AMA or FAI it can't be both. As Keith pointed out the main reason to make the team using FAI rules is to pick a team that will theoretically be competitive using that system. I do not believe that it is as easy as just hitting the enter key. The FAI pattern also goes down to 0 basically a 100 point scoring contests when you factor in the decimal places. AMA is 10-40.
Derek
It can work.
Yes it can be both. The time limit need not apply. Official upon release is for the FAI event. Just tell the team that is the time limit when they go to the WCs. Lap and half is the minimum. Doing an extra lap for AMA pattern minimum is fine and doesn't cost you any points in FAI. My idea is to get the best flyers on the WC team per the maneuver scoring. The releasing of the model, time limit, less one lap etc are all just particulars for FAI procedures. They have 0 effect on the maneuvers. The only real difference is the landing glide and maybe the clover entry. Just practice landing differently once you make the team.
If you are making the team or have a chance to make the team you can get your flight times under 7 minutes. Heck I was able to do it when I went to the TT flying 5.80 lap times.
If you are making the team or have a chance to make the team you can have a good understanding that when you release the model in FAI there is no turning back for that flight.
If it is possible to do what I am talking about it would require more study of the FAI sporting code for the team members as they will not be going through the regular FAI event we have had in the past. But then that would be the case if the nats placing were used for the team as well, like KT stated was done in the past.
Yes the FAI goes 0-10 we go 10-40. Once the conversion rate is created it’s simple. The 10-40 score converted will have some decimal points in there.
It can be done anyway the AMA approves it to be done. We could throw darts for it if they approve it.
I am going to do some research to even see if the conversion will work. I know a good excel guy here at work.
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My point was that if we can or do use the Nats to pick the team there is no reason to try to make it FAI. That would just overcomplicate the whole thing. The best 3 are the best 3 leave it at that. I need to do some more research. Maybe Randy can find a copy of the rules from the AMA where it says that we must have a separate team trial because in my blue book they pretty much left it up to the SIGs.
The only problem I do see is that you would have to pay double to enter if you wished to try out for the team. Part of the teams funds come from the team trials and if you did not pay the extra fee you would not be eligible for the team regardless of placing. That would still be cheaper than two trips though.
I know that other countries use the placing from various contests to determine the team. There is no "Team Trials".
Derek
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How do you determine who gets what trophy if the two events are combined. It is possible that the top three in open did not sign up for the team trials. Also if flying for the team trials and make the top three, how are you going to determine who flies on that last day. I say keep the two separate. We have done it in F2C in the past.
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My point was that if we can or do use the Nats to pick the team there is no reason to try to make it FAI. That would just overcomplicate the whole thing. The best 3 are the best 3 leave it at that. I need to do some more research. Maybe Randy can find a copy of the rules from the AMA where it says that we must have a separate team trial because in my blue book they pretty much left it up to the SIGs.
I know that other countries use the placing from various contests to determine the team. There is no "Team Trials".
Derek
I can see that. I was just thinking with the K-factor the top three AMA might not be the same??
Other countries dont have to contend with a BOM and or different scoring so they just use a specified contest to also count for the team. I can see why we made it separate. But the cost of travel to contests and participation etc......could put us on a different path to the team in the future.
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I doubt if anything will change before this time next year so two trips to Muncie it is.
Derek
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The Nat's and the TTs' are totally seperate events and shall not
be combined. One has nothing to do with the other. As for cost
per competitor this also has no bearing as to whether one would
go to either one. A true competitor will do what it takes to get
where he wants to go. Sure, we all would like to save a little money
but not at the expense of either contest. If you want to go to one
or the other or both you will figure out a way. As some one said
"This ain't rocket science!" I have no problem leaving things just
as they are. RJ
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I need to clarify some things that I have previously written regarding the team selection process. There is an AMA Team Selection Committee for the F2B event. The AMA Blue Book, referenced in my previous post, explains how that committee is established and how it works. That committee submits a plan to the AMA on how the team selection program will be run. There is some flexibility, but not much, on how the plan is formulated. The AMA then approves that plan and then there are people recruited to execute that plan. The Blue Book implies that there is to be a team selection finals. It would be difficult to imagine that the AMA would approve any plan for the F2B team selection process other than holding a team selection finals. This has historically been the method for our F2B teams. However, the AMA has selected other FAI teams based on the results at the Nats.
The Blue Book specifies that the "finals contest is to be conducted in accordance with the FAI rules which are scheduled to be in effect at the World Championship for which the selection is taking place." That means the 7 minute limit is to be enforced, FAI scoring would have to be used. Just running some sort of a mathematical conversion that somehow transforms the AMA 10-40 point system with its penalties for incomplete/omitted maneuvers to the FAI 0-10 in 0.1 increments using K-factors with a different set of penalties for incomplete/omitted maneuvers could not possibly be considered being in accordance with FAI rules. For our F2B event, about the only options to hold the Team selection program at the Nats is either to run the Nats to FAI rules or hold the team trials just before or after the Nats as a separate event. There are problems with any of these options. If the Nats are run to FAI rules, then what happens with our traditional event with the BOM requirement and appearance points which becomes a significant factor to determine a final score leading to qualifying for the Walker Cup? Scheduling the event before or after the Nats will be difficult from the facility and manpower support perspectives. Plus there will be another two days of "intense" competition for those participating which may be considered an undesirable consequence by most competitors. Or, if a person just opts to participate in only one event or the other then each event will suffer in participation. The Nats option has been proposed before and the committee, in conjunction with questionnaires to potential participants (previous participants), the proposal has been rejected probably for many of the reasons explained above.
Another option suggested would be to use two sets of judges for the same flight. I do not know of anybody who would want to be an Event Director for that sort of smash up. Recruiting judges is difficult enough. Recruiting even more judges will be impossible. As a Judge, I would not want to be a part of a program knowing there is a different set of judges scoring the same flights at the same time. I would want nothing to do with that. Not only would there be a problem with getting judges to participate, the entire Nats format with its multiple qualifying rounds, semifinals and finals is not the same as that used for the F2B events and would not be in compliance with the AMA requirement that FAI rules be followed.
There may be other alternatives to have the team selection at the Nats, but it is probably already too late to consider the Team Trials to be held in some way at the next Nats to select the 2014 team because of already existing scheduling problems.
I should not have brought up the Nats option. It is not a good idea.
Keith
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I'm with RJ on this one. The nats is getting screwed up enough-leave the team trials alone. Some might also choose to use different airplanes for these events due to appearance points and flight times, etc. I think the real issue happens Saturday.
Dave
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I need to clarify some things that I have previously written regarding the team selection process. There is an AMA Team Selection Committee for the F2B event. The AMA Blue Book, referenced in my previous post, explains how that committee is established and how it works. That committee submits a plan to the AMA on how the team selection program will be run. There is some flexibility, but not much, on how the plan is formulated. The AMA then approves that plan and then there are people recruited to execute that plan. The Blue Book implies that there is to be a team selection finals. It would be difficult to imagine that the AMA would approve any plan for the F2B team selection process other than holding a team selection finals. This has historically been the method for our F2B teams. However, the AMA has selected other FAI teams based on the results at the Nats.
The Blue Book specifies that the "finals contest is to be conducted in accordance with the FAI rules which are scheduled to be in effect at the World Championship for which the selection is taking place." That means the 7 minute limit is to be enforced, FAI scoring would have to be used. Just running some sort of a mathematical conversion that somehow transforms the AMA 10-40 point system with its penalties for incomplete/omitted maneuvers to the FAI 0-10 in 0.1 increments using K-factors with a different set of penalties for incomplete/omitted maneuvers could not possibly be considered being in accordance with FAI rules. For our F2B event, about the only options to hold the Team selection program at the Nats is either to run the Nats to FAI rules or hold the team trials just before or after the Nats as a separate event. There are problems with any of these options. If the Nats are run to FAI rules, then what happens with our traditional event with the BOM requirement and appearance points which becomes a significant factor to determine a final score leading to qualifying for the Walker Cup? Scheduling the event before or after the Nats will be difficult from the facility and manpower support perspectives. Plus there will be another two days of "intense" competition for those participating which may be considered an undesirable consequence by most competitors. Or, if a person just opts to participate in only one event or the other then each event will suffer in participation. The Nats option has been proposed before and the committee, in conjunction with questionnaires to potential participants (previous participants), the proposal has been rejected probably for many of the reasons explained above.
Another option suggested would be to use two sets of judges for the same flight. I do not know of anybody who would want to be an Event Director for that sort of smash up. Recruiting judges is difficult enough. Recruiting even more judges will be impossible. As a Judge, I would not want to be a part of a program knowing there is a different set of judges scoring the same flights at the same time. I would want nothing to do with that. Not only would there be a problem with getting judges to participate, the entire Nats format with its multiple qualifying rounds, semifinals and finals is not the same as that used for the F2B events and would not be in compliance with the AMA requirement that FAI rules be followed.
There may be other alternatives to have the team selection at the Nats, but it is probably already too late to consider the Team Trials to be held in some way at the next Nats to select the 2014 team because of already existing scheduling problems.
I should not have brought up the Nats option. It is not a good idea.
Keith
Thanks Keith, I knew I read that last time but taking a quick glance last night I could not find that sentence or if I did it simply didn't register. I agree that trying to do both at the same time would be impossible. There are so many differences in the AMA and FAI patterns that it just wont work. I guess it could be held leading up to the Nats but it would have to be done on the grass circles and I am sure that nobody would go for that. Looks like it will stay the same for now.
Derek
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The Nat's and the TTs' are totally seperate events and shall not
be combined. One has nothing to do with the other. As for cost
per competitor this also has no bearing as to whether one would
go to either one. A true competitor will do what it takes to get
where he wants to go. Sure, we all would like to save a little money
but not at the expense of either contest. If you want to go to one
or the other or both you will figure out a way. As some one said
"This ain't rocket science!" I have no problem leaving things just
as they are. RJ
There he is, How ya doin RJ?
I agree that most true competitors will do what it takes to compete. Sometimes with, kids, work, gas prices, and the poor economy it is hard for everyone to do what they want to do.
Derek
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Why not run the TT's before the NATS competition starts. Most everybody is there on the weekend and flying as soon as the site is open. Processing on Sunday, flying on Monday and Tuesday. The NATS could still have their processing on Tuesday with flying starting on Wednesday and Thursday qualifying. Friday top twenty and Saturday Jr, Sr and top five with the Walker flying. Of course it may cut into some practice flying. But, as big as Muncie is that should be no problem.
Yeah.... just try to get an extra 3 days of NATs time for CL flying !!
Randy
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I read through the AMA Blue Book and the FAI sporting code and I could not see anything that directly said that we couldn't use the Nats results to pick a team but it did refer back to the AMA for all the procedures. I do, however, think it is up to the Executive Committee to tell us how to do it. There is a lot of information spread around in a lot of different places so it takes a while to track it all down. I think Randy is correct because when I ran the Team Trials in 2011 I know that I read somewhere about the requirements for holding a team trials. I just cant remember where I read it. I was looking through my paperwork last night but never found it. I may look again...
Derek
Hi Derek
You need to go back and read it again., The AMA MANDATES that the TTs is to be run in a specific way, it also MANDATES that we use 6 judges in the finals , and 3 judges in the qualifying rounds, a different scoring system, with different rules, different specifications on maneuvers, and a different time limit.
The SIGs (PAMPA) has little to nothing to do with the TTs, and the contest is a very different one than what we fly at the NATs, with the AMA mandate and the Book that dictates how we are to run the TTS, it is impossible to run this at the NATs with 2 entirely different sets of judges or adding 3 days to the NATs schedule would be nearly impossible. BUt if by some miracle you could run it and pick the team From NATs finish, you would have to use FAI scoring and do away with the APs and the Walker Trophy.
We cannot change things as we see fit at the TTs as we could at the PAMPA run NATs.
Randy
Randy
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Hi Derek
You need to go back and read it again., The AMA MANDATES that is is to be ran in a specific way, it also MANDATES that we use 6 judges in the finals , and 3 judges in the qualifying rounds, a different scoring system, with different rules, different specifications on maneuvers, and a different time limit.
The SIGs (PAMPA) has little to nothing to do with the TTs, and the contest is a very different one than what we fly at the NATs, with the AMA mandate and the Book that dictates how we are to run the TTS, it is impossible to run this at the NATs with 2 entirely different sets of judges or adding 3 days to the NATs schedule would be nearly impossible.
We cannot change things as we see fit at the TTs as we could at the PAMPA run NATs.
Randy
Randy
I know, Keith posted the most important sentence that I overlooked when I was reading through the Blue Book last night.
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Derek and All, This was an interesting discussion. Back when I actually had
a job, usually 6 days a week, really, I also had to figure out how to go to
the Nat's, build a couple of hot rods, raise 2 great kids, go to the TTs, came
close to qualifying once or twice, married for 30+ years, rode a bunch of
motorcycles, did some drag racing, won the Super Street title in 1993
at Bakersfield with my '57 Bel Air, went to the Reno races a bunch of times,
had a 19' Tahiti jet and a big camper, went water skiing a lot, surfed a bunch,
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This stupid computer didn't let me finish. Managed to make every Nat's from
1969 until 1981 cause of the strike, then made the Nat's until 2004. Bottom line,
you do what ya gotta do to get it done. I did it and I'm just a normal guy.
RJ
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This stupid computer didn't let me finish. Managed to make every Nat's from
1969 until 1981 cause of the strike, then made the Nat's until 2004. Bottom line,
you do what ya gotta do to get it done. I did it and I'm just a normal guy.
RJ
Me too buddy, minus a five year break to get married have kids and get divorced. I do what I have to do to get to the contest I want to go to. I am more fortunate than some...
Derek
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Me too buddy, minus a five year break to get married have kids and get divorced. I do what I have to do to get to the contest I want to go to. I am more fortunate than some...
Derek
Yeah, and some people get there even when their whole workshop and fleet have been destroyed by fire.
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Yeah, and some people get there even when their whole workshop and fleet have been destroyed by fire.
Yep.
Thanks Keith.
Derek
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I have e-mailed AMA reps,etc. I also contacted the Pres of IRCHA via the link on their web page and asked if they would offer to hold the R/C Heli portion of the Nats on the 4th weekend /week, and let the C/L fliers they steamrolled have the non-holiday timeframe, especially since the IRCHA was coming back in a few weeksto use the site again.
Won't help, but maybe his conscience will bother him enough to distract him , maybe even cause himto lose some sleep.
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Hi Derek
You need to go back and read it again., The AMA MANDATES that the TTs is to be run in a specific way, it also MANDATES that we use 6 judges in the finals , and 3 judges in the qualifying rounds, a different scoring system, with different rules, different specifications on maneuvers, and a different time limit.
I would point out, however, that this is indeed just an AMA mandate. They have not followed this in the past and if push comes to shove, they can waive the whole thing.
Brett
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Well, back to the original point of this thread...Thank you everyone who sent emails and made calls to the AMA. I am not sure it will help anything but one think is for sure. They know we are still here! Tomorrow is the day that everything will be decided, Allen Goff is going to represent the CLPA comunity and voice his/our opinions and concerns. Thanks Allen and good luck.
We will know something soon.
Derek
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I would point out, however, that this is indeed just an AMA mandate. They have not followed this in the past and if push comes to shove, they can waive the whole thing.
Brett
Brett
That is possible they could change the way they want it done, but it certainly is not very likley they would. They are very keen on following this same course on running TTs and picking teams. and they have followed this in the past for years.
Randy