2013 Nats date change

[Derek Barry]

I copied this from the other forum so that everyone who cares could have a chance to do something about this.

"The AMA has informed Brenda Schuette that they are considering changing the tentative dates for the 2013 CL Nats. The dates were July 14-20th.

They are looking at changing it to July 1-6th. The last time they had the Nats over the 4th week, participation was down and getting judges was impossible. Too many family plans and conflicts.

If you are considering attending next year's Nats, please call or E-mail the AMA and tell them what you think about having the dates in the first week of July.

You can contact the AMA and look up E-mails and phone numbers at the AMA web site:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/organization/hqstaff.aspx

David Fitzgerald"


 

[Derek Barry]

This too.


"To All:

I have more information. It seems that another group called Bob Brown and Dave Mathewson and complained about the dates, and it got changed. The following is a note from Brenda:

Dave,

Please rest assured that it was not me that changed the dates and I voiced my objection to this change too. I was not the one that proposed the change and it is my understanding that it was another group that called Bob Brown and Dave Mathewson and complained very loudly that caused the proposed change.

Brenda

I bet that if everyone that reads this note called and E-mailed these two individuals at AMA, that maybe we can have just as effective voice to change the dates back. So, if you are interested, here is the E-mail and phone number for Bob Brown:

Call the AMA at (800) 435-9262 - 1-800-I-FLY-AMA
Other than the main phone number, the contact list on the AMA site is sorely out of date. Bob Brown is listed in the AMA Model AViation as president, but there is no contact information for him listed anywhere I can find, either on the AMA web site or in the magazine.

Dave Mathewson: ext. 201 or davem@modelaircraft.org

I intend to call and E-mail both.

David Fitzgerald"

 

[Derek Barry]

Doug Moon, Bob Whitely, and I have allready sent emails in. If you are a Nats contestant and you feel like we have once again been given the shaft please send an Email to the AMA. We have until September the 15th to get our point across. The more people that contact the AMA about this the better.

Thanks
Derek

[Doug Moon]

Yes, please email the AMA at the above mentioned email address and let them know the dates should have stayed as posted.  We have had more than our fair share of flying on or around the 4th of July. 

It seems it could be possible to rotate the events that are normally flown in July so everyone has their turn.

Thanks

Doug

[Doug Moon]

I read over on SSW that Dave Mathewson and Bob Brown are out of town at this time.

If you would please forward your concerns about the Nats date changes to Joyce Hager at jhager@modelaircraft.org

We need to have our voices heard before 9/15/2012, yes that is this Saturday! (payday )

Thanks

[Dave_Trible]

I also sent one to Greg Hahn.  He's been quite helpful in the past.

Dave

[peabody]

Dave Mathewson and Bob Brown are out of town, not on Pluto....I am certain that they have access to email.
Also, I suggest contacting your AMA District VP.

Have fun!

[Doug Moon]

Dave Mathewson and Bob Brown are out of town, not on Pluto....I am certain that they have access to email.
Also, I suggest contacting your AMA District VP.

Have fun!

Yeah, I am pretty certain they're not on Pluto.  I would agree with you there.  

[Allen Goff]

I have sent emails to everyone at AMA, and I will be at the Nats planning meeting and if need be, I will share my opinion.
The US Nationals should always take 1st place when planning the AMA site calender year...........!

Blessings
Allen

[Derek Barry]

To All:

There have been a few developments. I'm afraid that the schedule has been all but set.

Here is a letter I sent to my AMA District 10 rep on the AMA EC.

Dear Mr. Tougas,

I don’t know if you remember me, but we have traded E-mails occasionally over the last couple of years. I ran the CLPA Aerobatics event at this year’s Nats, and will be running it again for 2013.

Unfortunately, I am very upset over a proposed change in the dates of the 2013 US Nats. I have spoken with Joyce Hagar, Brenda Schuette, Dave Mathewson, Dave Guerin, and tried to find contact info for Bob Brown, who seems to not want to be contacted.

Basically, the IRCHA (R/C Helicopter accosiation) met with Dave Mathewson, and Bob Brown. They got together at this last Nats and decided that they want their Helicopter Jamboree the first week of August. This severely impacted the proposed dates of the 2013 Nats. It has the effect of moving everything 2 weeks forward, or more to the point, moving the CL Nats to the first week of July, over the 4th holiday. It is extremely difficult to run the event over the holiday. Attendance will be down, and it will be impossible to recruit volunteers to run the event. Too many family conflicts.

Dave Guerin is particularly upset because the Nats is supposed to be run independent of the AMA and the EC. He said that the EC handed him the decision of the IRCHA.

I guess you and the EC have to decide if an outside event is more important than the US Nats.

Dave Guerin is the Nats manager: dtguerin.guerin@gmail.com
Bob Brown is the AMA President: amadiii@atlanticbb.net or bobb@modelaircraft.org
Dave Mathewson is the AMA Executive Driector: davem@modelaircraft.org
Brenda Schuette is the CL Category manager: blschuette@cox.net
Joyce Hagar is the AMA Staff Director: jhager@modelaircraft.org

Saturday Spetember 15th is the Nats planning meeting. After this it will be too late to effect change.

I do not go to Stunt Hangar,not enough time in the day. If some one would post this information there, that would be great.

David Fitzgerald


 

[SteveMoon]

I have sent e-mails also. This is really disappointing and has a very negative effect
my Summer schedule next year.

Steve

[john e. holliday]

Nothing like sending E-Mails to people that only think of the money that can be made instead of the good of the people.   If we had the number of people flying Control Line and spending the money that the RC pilots with their rotary wing toys spend, we could dictate the dates we wanted.   Goes for the manufacturers also as all they think about is the money they can rake in with the toys they sell. 

[ChrisSarnowski]

Remember that this schedule change affects all control line disciplines... voice your opinion!

-Chris

[Derek Barry]

Remember that this schedule change affects all control line disciplines... voice your opinion!

-Chris

Actually it affects the entire Nats because it is a outside event (a helicopter fun fly) that is pushing everything forward. It is ridiculous!!!!

[Derek Barry]

http://ircha.org/


Apparently it is already official.

Derek

[Derek Barry]

I sent this to the president of the IRCHA.

Dear Dave,
 
My name is Derek Barry I have been a member of the AMA for over 20 years and have been a Nats competitor for just about as many. I want to express my extreme discontent with your organization. For some reason you think that your 2013 Jamboree is more important than the US Nationals. Somehow you managed to convince someone in the AMA (who had no right to do so) to change the dates for your event, which is in direct conflict with the prescheduled AMA Nationals. There are a lot of very unhappy people because of this date change. As Control Line Pilots we have had to fly during the week of July 4th more than any other discipline and we as a group are tired of it. I assure you that everything that can be done is being done to get the dates changed back to what they were originally were.  I would ask that you cooperate with us and the AMA to fix this problem. The AMA Nationals should have precedent over any other AMA function.
 
Derek Barry
AMA 233413

[Derek Barry]

president@ircha.org

This is his email, feel free to flame him too. His name is Dave Millner.

Derek

[peabody]

Derek...

Flaming will do no good.....

I have received a half dozen emails regarding the scheduling.....and a very valid point was made.
Yes, the entire Nats is being shoved around to accommodate this fun fly.....
BUT, a more valid point is that the Control Line events seem to receive a disproportionate allotment of the July 4th weekend. I think this is where the control line community should make a stand. Apparently the Academy feels that the July 4th weekend should be part of the Nats.....even though there are added direct expenses to them (staffing). If they continue to believe that the July 4th weekend be part of the Nats, I believe that there should be a fair apportionment of participation among the various disciplines of air modeling.

I have no hard facts to present to the Academy supporting the claim that we (control line fliers) have  been assigned the 4th weekend more frequently than others...does anyone?

Have fun!

[Derek Barry]

I know that two out of the last four have been on the 4th for us. I also know that it has been on the 4th a at least twice more than that since 2002. Probably more.

Derek

[Derek Barry]

Flaming may not accomplish anything but at least they know that I think they are assholes. That's good enough for me.

Derek

[peabody]

Derek:
Here is a reply I received from an AMA officer...
Hi Rich:
 
I understand your concern but neither the Executive Council nor myself have direct say over the NATS schedule.  The Executive Council didn't move the C/L NATS as we don't get involved in this.  The EC did ask the NATS Management Committee and Dave Guerin to see what could be done to try to accommodate IRCHA's long standing desire to move their date to the first part of August.  It is the NATS Management Committee that sets the NATS schedule.  I also know that no matter what happens, change or not, there are people that won't be happy the decisions that are made.   
 
Rich, IRCHA attracts over 1,000 pilots, plus family members that attend this week long event.  It is the largest gathering in Muncie each year, and it is continually growing.  IRCHA has wanted to move their dates because of the fact that many of their members can't attend because of school starting mid August in some areas of the country.  Another reason the EC asked the NATS Committee to see what could be done with the IRCHA event is because helicopters are the fastest growing segment of our hobby, with many young members involved.   We certainly aren't trying to negatively impact the C/L people, but hoping to accommodate the largest number of AMA members possible.  I have copied Bob Brown and Dave Mathewson in this response in the event they have additional information they can provide.  I do appreciate you writing.  Feel free to contact me at any time.
 
Best Regards,

[Steve Fitton]

Sounds like AMA is setting precedent to say at some future time: "Dear C/L, we are tossing you out of the Nats because we can get 1000 paying park flyers that week instead.  Have a nice life, hugs and kisses, the AMA"

[john e. holliday]

Why not put the elite rotor pilots on the week of the 4th.   Then they could have a really big family reunion.   But, like I have stated, money talks.   I missed too many family gatherings because of NATS scheduling,  not any more.

Isn't it about time we have our own Control Line NATS separate from all the EC money spenders.   Too bad we can't get an insurance company to support our control line community and let us move around the country.   The Control Line SIGS run the events now and I think we could support our own NATS.  Why do we need trophies down to 10th place in some events and only one or two for others. 

[Derek Barry]

Sounds like AMA is setting precedent to say at some future time: "Dear C/L, we are tossing you out of the Nats because we can get 1000 paying park flyers that week instead.  Have a nice life, hugs and kisses, the AMA"

BINGO!


Thats what I heard. "bla bla bla, those helicopter guys are way more important than you control line guys and the entire Nationals for that matter. Have a nice day"

Derek

[Bill Mohrbacher]

I don't know the new Nats Manager - Is he a chopper pilot?  This is the first year in what? 40? without Ron Morgan.

[ChrisSarnowski]

Well, we can always write the NATs sponsors and suggest they drop support if the event dates are July 4th week.

I doubt the IRCHA guys support SIG, APC, Aircraft Spruce, Balsa USA, Jett, etc.

I know I will be breaking fewer APC 9x4 props if the NATs dates for C/L Combat are July 4th week!

-Chris

[ChrisSarnowski]

From Motions of the AMA EC, October 29, 2011

"It was moved, seconded and approved by unanimous acclamation that IRCHA be given any timeframe in August 2013 to hold their Jamboree. Those dates must be received by the AMA Executive Director by January 7, 2012. "

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/Organization/ec/1011ecmotions.aspx

Said dates are not in minutes of January 8, 2012 meeting. Or any other for that matter.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/organization/ec/0112ecminutes.aspx

[Will Hinton]

Here's the email I sent to all the addresses Dave F. had listed.

Hello,
As a member of AMA for many years and a nats participant, I strongly object to the change of dates for the c/l nats.  July 4 should NOT be used for ANY part of the nats out of respect for the celebration of our great nation's establishment on that date.
Should AMA decide to eliminate the c/l community's desires in favor of IRCHA, it proves once again that only numbers and money counts with an organization that supposedly serves ALL disciplines within the sport/hobby.
What a shame, and shame on YOU!
Disgustedly and disappointedly,
Will R Hinton
AMA300421

[Derek Barry]

Well said Will!

Derek

[Brad LaPointe]

The  question I have ,are those resonsible in elected positions ? If so maybe you AMA members may be able to extract a bit of ballot box revenge. Just saying . Vote early , vote often .


Brad LaPointe
 

[Joseph Patterson]

        Well I've voiced my displeasure to the AMA via emails to the usual suspects. Obviously we are out clouted-sad that a relatively johnnie come lately(IRCHA) organizatiosn trumps 65+ year old events. Why couldn't that organization schedule in June or early July. Maybe its time to look at possiblilties of getting away from the AMA and starting over.

     Doug  

[Mike Keville]

Perhaps it's time to "secede from the union".  Unfortunately, I just renewed with the Academy of Mostly ARFs -- possibly for the final time.

Just sayin'....

[peabody]

I think it might be a great time to have the powers that be in PAMPA propose a "rotating" CLPA Nats....the Academy has flat out stated that they can do without CL....

[RC Storick]

I would rather see the nats in September

[peabody]

A September date pretty much leaves out kiddie stunt

[Doug Moon]

The grass is not always greener on the other side. Think about the world champs.

It rotates around every other year and all you here about is trouble.  Logistics, practice space and on and on.  And they have two years to prepare.  We are talking year to year.  

Each year you are going to have a new venue to secure and a whole new host of problems to contend with.  AND NO AMA BACKING!!!  And that doesn't include getting volunteers for each new area.  I know in some areas the volunteers might go up but in other areas it might go down.  What then?  

As it stands now we have a secured site that is WAY WAY more than adequate for the numbers we bring in every year.  This past year I could walk up to the Lpad and get a practice flight within 30 minutes or less anytime I wanted outside of the contest times.  It's awesome!  We have a support organization on site should there be any issues above the contest that need sorting out.

I think this motion to move the nats around is the fastest way to start the DEATH of it for good.  Please think way ahead before you start getting this ball rolling.

CLPA is a smaller group and we can get pushed around because if it for sure.  Yeah, that sucks.  But we need to bring solutions to the table instead of just constant complaining.  Constant complaining will only get you the boot that much faster.  Yesterday when I sent my communication to the AMA I also stated we should look at rotating the disciplines throughout the month so we each share the burden of the 4th of July.  That leaves the site open all of August for other larger flyin/conntests. I am certain the nats scheduling is a logistical nightmare.  Especially with CL site right in the middle of the venue.  That hurts because of flyovers for safety reasons.  The AMA site is massive.  If there were another full pavilion and paved runway in the back where the Nats helicopters perform we could compete back there and it would not interfere with RC flyovers. Just a thought.....  The Jamboree is never going away. And I hope it doesn't for the sake of the site.  I am no fun fly fan for sure but I have seen the spectator turnout alone this thing brings and it is freaking impressive.  Its good for the site for all disciplines to use it all the time.

[RC Storick]

A September date pretty much leaves out kiddie stunt

how many kids were entered last year? under 18

[peabody]

Doug:

I appreciate the points that you make...
I have long held that the Nats should be the week prior to the Team Trials, in Muncie, and on even years, rotate around the Country.
In no particular order: NW...SE....NE....SW.....Texas....then again....
Such a rotation would enhance the event: drawing people that are relatively close to a venue.

Have fun!

[Will Hinton]

Here's the reply I received from Joyce Hagar and my reply.

From: Joyce Hager
Date: 9/11/2012 2:16:20 PM
To: wilhint
Subject: RE: nats
 
I understand your concern and I know you are aware that I have received many emails on this subject.  You may not know the process that takes place.  First of all AMA HQ does not make up the Nats schedule.  The Nats Management Committee normally puts together two or three versions and then submits it to the Special Interest Groups at the Nats Planning Meeting which will be held on Saturday.  A discussion will be had and then the schedule is voted on.  Your Pampa representative is Allen Goff

As to IRCHA, yes the EC voted on the fact that IRCHA could choose a date in August for the Helicopter Jamboree.  The dates are July 29th – August 4.  I am not sure that was the reason someone wanted to change the dates of your event.   As to money.  We don’t receive money for that event being here.  They do rent equipment from us but that is no different than any other event.  We do not receive a portion of what they collect or what they charge their vendors.  So it can’t be about money and it takes a lot of work on the part of the Maint. crew.  So I am sorry you are disgusted and disappointed, but you need to be sure who you should be disappointed in.

 

 

 

From: wilhint [mailto:wilhint@roadrunner.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 12:27 PM
To: Joyce Hager
Subject: nats

There are a huge number of IRCHA members who pay their dues, many more than the c/l community.  I don't buy that the EC isn't aware of this and I don't buy that they don't have clout when it comes to the nats planning.  I have heard the horror stories of political maneuvering at the AMA headquarters from many I trust.  So, when does c/l get the "blank check" to choose their dates?  That's what you gave IRCHA.  And, as you pointed out, that WAS the EC.
Sorry, there's still egg on the EC's face.
 

 

[Patrick Hempel]

 It looks like Speed is falling off, if so we just gained two more paved cirlce access?

[ChrisSarnowski]

It looks like Speed is falling off, if so we just gained two more paved cirlce access?

Well, that is pretty rude and offensive to the Speed guys. And I don't fly speed. 

-Chris

[Doug Moon]

Well, that is pretty rude and offensive to the Speed guys. And I don't fly speed.  

-Chris

Whoa I made a mistake there.  I meant to say racing.  This year and last year I went by the racing circles and the participation was down.  

I will change my original post as well.

No, it's not rude and offensive.  It's the truth.  Participation was down.  I was told that to my face.


The point of my post was we have a spectacular venue now.  If we were to decide to leave it would be very hard to get back to it if ever need be.  The AMA would take our slot and fill it with something else for sure.  

[ChrisSarnowski]

Well, maybe we have different opinions of things but I don't think it is very nice to look at a decline in Racing as an opportunity for Stunt.

That is what the original post says to me.

"It looks like Speed is falling off, if so we just gained two more paved cirlce access?"

That is the statement to which I was referring.

Sorry to get off topic, we are supposed to be talking about NATS schedule.

-Chris

[Doug Moon]

Well, maybe we have different opinions of things but I don't think it is very nice to look at a decline in Racing as an opportunity for Stunt.

That is what the original post says to me.

"It looks like Speed is falling off, if so we just gained two more paved cirlce access?"

That is the statement to which I was referring.

Sorry to get off topic, we are supposed to be talking about NATS schedule.

-Chris

I can see that. I took it out of my original post so it wont go over wrong.

I already mentioned in my original post that we have plenty of space now and practice time is very accessible for any who want it.  

Yes we are supposed to talking about nats scheduling, but, as you know threads tend to twist around a bit.  Whenever there is an issue with the nats here comes Rich and some others about breaking off of the AMA and traveling it all around.  I just wanted to make a point that we have the venue plenty big enough for ALL of CL at this time.  To walk away from it would not be in our best interest.  Securing another venue like this one elsewhere each and every year is going to be a job all to itself.  Leaving Muncie just made running the CLPA and or other CL events if they chose to come too alot harder for the same pay.

I think it would also not be very beneficial for the smaller CL events that want to stay at Muncie.  The smaller an event the less attention it gets correct?  Well, the pushing around the schedule and whatever else that makes people upset will only get worse.  

[peabody]

Doug...
I wasn't saying anything about a lack of space....
It seems to me that a whole bunch of people enjoyed the Nats being at different military bases across the Country...."the good old days"...

Have fun!

[Doug Moon]

Doug...
I wasn't saying anything about a lack of space....
It seems to me that a whole bunch of people enjoyed the Nats being at different military bases across the Country...."the good old days"...

Have fun!

True, true.

I can see that.  

Oh yeah, I am having fun!   

[Darkstar1]

Doug...
I wasn't saying anything about a lack of space....
It seems to me that a whole bunch of people enjoyed the Nats being at different military bases across the Country...."the good old days"...

Have fun!

NAVY Bases! 

[Patrick Hempel]

Whoa I made a mistake there.  I meant to say racing.  This year and last year I went by the racing circles and the participation was down.  

I will change my original post as well.

No, it's not rude and offensive.  It's the truth.  Participation was down.  I was told that to my face.


The point of my post was we have a spectacular venue now.  If we were to decide to leave it would be very hard to get back to it if ever need be.  The AMA would take our slot and fill it with something else for sure.  

Sir,
Were all in this together, stunt, speed, racing, combat, carrier, scale.
Our off site moderator watches over us.
Thanks, for the updated post sir.
Patrick Hempel
AMA C.D. 56526

[Randy Cuberly]

The bottom line here guys is that the AMA and all it's subsidiary functions have gotten used to pushing Control Line around because of the smaller numbers we represent, and they have always gotten away with it.  I hear them laughing out loud every time WE complain about something.
Get used to it...it isn't going to change.
We get hind tit and have for the last 40 years or so.
Writing e-mails and complaining is just so much wasted time.
If we keep joining the AMA what we get is what we get!
We need to come up with an alternative insurance plan, even if it is considerably more expensive and tell the "Park Fliers Anonymous" to kiss our collective Asses.
Nothing else will ever fly!!
No I don't have any solutions but then apparently neither does anyone else.  Complaining to an organization that secretly laughs up their sleeve at us certainly gets us nowhere!!!

Randy Cuberly   

[Mike Keville]

Can't speak for anyone else, of course -- but I'm done.

After 2013, will no longer (since 1951) be a member of the Academy of Mostly Arfs.