There seem to be two groups of thought in Control-Line these days:

Those that embrace new technology and find ways to use it.
And those that want to keep things exactly as they were in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Not putting either down, just saying that some will enjoy it while others will be unhappy about it.

Interesting point, Chuck. I guess I won't be tossing my older equipment.
I think it'll be a while before the Scale guys want anything more than DC input for electronics.
As far as people not wanting any electrics, I remember models with timed and internal mechanically signaled controls and mechanical options way back in the 60's.
Chris...

But wasn't one of Jack's lines just a static do-nothing line?

Jack and I have had a lot of laughs about that. He is  a very good friend and I love his attitude. God bless him.

Didn't Dick Byron fly with Zero lines? In carrier I fly with Zero lines, three to be exact!

Since we are talking about CONTROL LINE models, it seems that by definition the control should come from the lines.  I have no problem with using RF control on sport models, and have considered it myself many times. But for competition, CONTROL LINE is THE defining parameter, not model size, not engine size, not performance, not competition objective, simply the fact that the model is controlled by line(s). Either you accept the challenge of working within that framework or you don't.

My point exactly - well said!

 

I say as long as the elevator is still controlled by the two or one line, let the rest of the functions be controlled how ever the individual wants.   Just as long as it doesn't interfere with the radio control planes.   

My Last 3-line CL scale model was in 1991 and it was converted over to electronic controls very quickly. I have flown with all types, Single channel, DSC (JR radios), converted radios, IR and other systems.

The world of model airplanes has changed drastically in the last ten years, electric power has come of age and glow engines were going for cheap at the last RC auction I was at. If our sport is to survive we need to allow new technology to be used within reason.

I was flying with Virgil Wilbur in southern California at one point in the early 1990's and he did not want to try electronic controls, he said that for 3 years, then one day he decided to give it a try and he told me flat out that he wasn't going to like it but willing to give one model a try. After the maiden flight of that model, he put his handle down and only had one question for me...."how do I convert the rest of models to electronics controls?". Within two weeks had cut every 3rd line and installed electronics in every model he had.

My point is that we can embrace the 2-line control for the bellcrank and elevator, that should not change, but adding any form of controls for the throttle, retracts and other functions does not detract from the sport of Control Line.

Remember the use of electronic controls allows for the use of recievers, electric speed controls and the new brushless electric motors without any mechanical linkages. I flew my Hanger Nine cub with the older astro flight brushed motors for 8 years and use the JR radio for throttle control, it worked great.

Happy landings,

Some people are just die hards.   I still have the system I got from Fred a few years ago.  Just haven't decided what plane to put it in.   Also have the system that Ken Wilson of RC Hobbies in KCK made for me.   

I’ve been flying electronic controls down the lines since 1990.  Fred Cronenwett and I have campaigned models with electronic controls for years, trying to get folks more interested in CL Scale, because that’s what we love.  We did not want to see the sport die out.  I still fly scale very regularly with the Circle Cutters CL club in Chicago. 

Recently I switched to 2.4ghz control for my Piper Cub.  I was thrilled with the results!  The advantages are obvious: 
1.   I can use regular flying lines again, without the need for the thick plastic coating.  This makes the model fly cleaner.
2.   I can still control scale options exactly like I did before with the radio sending the signal down the lines, so all of my current scale planes need only have the receiver changed out, nothing else.

I bought a Park Zone Wildcat (RC model) and installed a belcrank in it and currently fly it 2.4ghz as well.  (Now there’s a switch:  flying what was supposed to be an ‘RC’ model as a CL scale model.)

I can understand wanting to keep certain events ‘pure’ from a nostalgia standpoint.  I think the SAM fliers limit certain technologies in their models.  But electronics in a CL model through the lines or 2.4ghz controlled, in no way give me a crushing advantage over any other fliers’ model.  I know from experience:  Kieth Trostle beat me at the Northwest Regionals in the 90’s with his Martin Baker 3-line model while I flew my Spacewalker with electronic controls.  In the end, it came down to his superb craftsmanship in static and his piloting skills that took the field that day. 

Last fall I put in for a rule change for the 2.4ghz on the next rules cycle regarding Scale Competition.  In my mind, it will only benefit the hobby, giving us just another tool to use to better CL flying.  Scale fliers in general already fly electronic controls; this would do little to affect how we fly.  As for other CL events?  Let them decide how they best want to direct their events.

As an interesting parting note, I’ve recently tried RC flying.  After watching the other fliers 'ooh' and 'ahh' over realtime telemetry sent back to their radios showing what the onboard voltage was of the onboard flight pack, I had to smile to myself at this vibrant group.  These modelers LOVE every new technological gadget that comes along and embrace it.  RC fliers are constantly pushing the envelope, gaining new members as they do so.  Why can’t we be more like that?  The younger generation of fliers today embrace all things new and electronic.  We want to attract new members and whether we like it or not, the world of electronics will continue to advance.

I love CL flying, and I don’t want to see it fade away.  When folks at the field see my models flying with electronic controls, they get excited and ask how they too can do what I’m doing.  I know that some will folks will long to keep the status quo, and it’s fine that they would disagree with my viewpoint. 

But as for me, I’m for charging forward towards the future. Even with 2.4ghz controls, it’s still a control line model.  And I’ll still be out in the field with my CL handle in hand, radio on my hip, the sun in my face, flying the CL models I love.

OK, so RC's the future and FF and CL are the past.

So go ahead and fly RC and let those who want to live in the past alone.

I have serious doubts that allowing RF control of functions on a CL plane would bring more fliers into the hobby. I like CL and would fly it under any circumstances. That said I don’t have a problem with RF Control Systems. Electrical control through the lines is currently allowed and as many of you have noted, used.  Personally I have only built one plane in the last 2 years that did not use electric control through the lines, (Clancy’s U/Tronics). I don’t really see any difference if the signals are run via hard wire, RF or infrared. As long as they don’t cause interference problems with other fliers, why not?

Some people are just die hards.   I still have the system I got from Fred a few years ago.  Just haven't decided what plane to put it in.   Also have the system that Ken Wilson of RC Hobbies in KCK made for me.   

Hey Doc,

I didn't know you had one of Ken Wilson's original digital C/L Scale control systems.  That was the first of it's kind in the world, and pioneered sending digital signals down insulated control lines to control RC servos.  It was developed by Ken in 1973 after a talk with fellow FAI team member Mike Stott and myself at the '73 Oshkosh Nats.  We debuted the new systems at the '74 Scale World Championships in Lakehurst.  By the '76 WC the Russians had duplicated our system, and before long the rest of the world followed.  In the 1980s I gave my system to Australia Graves, but then shortly after acquired Mike Stott's original system, which I still have.  It should be in the AMA Museum (one of these days).

2.4 is the next logical step IMO. It would allow us to get rid of the insulated lines.  Think of the performance benefits!  It would really be exciting.  With 2.4 on plain lines I could have looped my Zlin!!

Mike

2.4 is the next logical step IMO. It would allow us to get rid of the insulated lines.

It seems to be quite possible to send the signals via normal lines, as discussed in the other thread I linked a couple of days ago.

I have asked Floyd to send me some more info, but it looks as if it is just an encoded on/off signal. For multi-function electric control you need a more complicated waveform. It would be great if Floyd's system would work for that. I use lightly coated lines that I make myself, not the heavy nylon coated fishing lines. It does not take much insulation, but I have not figured out how to eliminate it completly.

What do you coat your lines with?

I'm with Doc on this one. As long as the pitch mode is controlled by lines, the model qualifies as being C/L. Auxilliary functions should be able to be controlled by any safe means. Time to come out of the dark ages and increase participation in C'L scale. The draggy insulated lines are a significant participation deterrent IMHO.

I have two types of electronic control systems that I use with my  CL scale and carrier models, Single channel and the JR radios with DSC  (Direct servo Connection).

All of my models have the traditional CL bellcrank, leadouts and I fly with a 2-line stunt handle. If you ignore the electronic controls the model is a CL scale or carrier model, I just choose to use the electronic controls to move the throttle, flaps, retracts or other features on the model.

Both systems require a waveform that changes the position of the servo. Single channel is very simple in that it has a circuit board, throttle stick and a battery. the single channel system has been called a servo driver and if the lines are shorted out the system will stop working. The lines need to be insulated.

The DSC system is basically a RC unit that has a feature designed for RC pilots to be used in the pit area and directly connects the transmitter to the reciever thru two wires without tranmistting a frecuency. Again the waveform adjusts the width of the waveform to control the position of the servo.

Both systems require the lines to be insulated. I choose to use the nylon coated lines to keep things simple. They are durable and last a very long time. I still have lines that I was flying with 15 years ago.

the 2.4 Ghz will allow lines to be bare wire and greatly simplify the installation and use of the system and improve the performance of the model.

One huge advantage of electronics controls is that the JR radios that I use with DSC have end point adjustment and servo reversing. I can use the end point adjustment to get the idle set just right in a matter of minutes. I did that same thing with my 3-line corsair back in 1990 and it took over 1/2 hour to adjust the pin location in the handle to get it set just right.

There is a darker side to the issue that hasn't surfaced so far in this discussion. Allowing an RF link opens up the potential for some skullduggery. What's to stop someone from setting up a system that uses an auxilliary controller, stationed clandestinly outside the flight circle, to do all of the fancy stuff? Don't think for a moment that this is the first mention of such an idea.

C/L General Rule Paragraph #2 is quite clear. All control inputs whether mechanical or electronic have to go down the lines.

And while on the topic of technology, don't forget that C/L "Fly-By-Wire" technology has been demonstrated. There is no mechanical link between the bellcrank and the elevator.

Does the pitch mode have to direct mechanical connect or can it have electronics involved?  Right now as I read it FIA is direct connect - AMA can have electronics as long as pitch control is through the lines.

Again, only my humble opinion ...
As long as the lines are used to control the pitch, what difference does it make whether the control is mechanical or electronic? The lines cannot just be a tether to keep the aircraft from flying out of the circle. The building and flying skill of the pilot is what counts regardless.

In todays world we have no choice but to embrace technology or be relegated to the ranks of dinosaurs.

Again, only my humble opinion ...
As long as the lines are used to control the pitch, what difference does it make whether the control is mechanical or electronic? The lines cannot just be a tether to keep the aircraft from flying out of the circle. The building and flying skill of the pilot is what counts regardless.

In todays world we have no choice but to embrace technology or be relegated to the ranks of dinosaurs.

Under the current AMA rules I do believe that you could fly the model tethered, say with a twisted insulated pair of wires attached between the model and a chest harness.  You would then fly the model with a direct connect RC flight box that sends the controll down the twisted pair. This would comply with the rule that the lines are used to control pitch - break a line and you crash!  Just think with this set up if the lines go slack line you could fly level until the lines tightened back up.  I have actually considered trying this and showing up at a contest to see what happens.

But above all have fun!!!

PS RF control may be over all cheaper and for the plug and play generation it will be easy!  

Is there a division here, between those who "wanna have fun" and those who want all the worldly fame, fortune and glory of winning a Scale C/L contest?      

I consider the physical connection from hand to elevator an essential part of the Fun in C/L. For the rest, I am all for making it reliable and easy to set up, in whatever way that can be accomplished. YMMV.

The point values of 20 for retracts and 10 for anything else that moves are based on mechanical systems that require a high degree of skill and ingenuity to achieve.

Paul,

Small point of historical accuracy.  As I mentioned earlier, the first use of digital signals down the lines to control R/C servos was in 1974 by Mike Stott and myself.  But there were other non-mechanical ways to actuate scale operations with electrical power down the lines that were tried all through the 1960s, and probably the 1950s.  I never used one, or was around to witness them, but numerous magazine articles and Nats reports of that time mentioned such systems.  None that became common place, like the later digital systems, but they were around.  So you can't say that the point values were based on mechanical systems only.

In fact the point values that you quote are from C/L Sport Scale which didn't exist at the Nats, or in the rule book, until 1977 or '78 (memory slightly foggy on the exact date the sport scale rules were adopted).  So even the use of today's digital controls pre-dates the point values you mentioned. 

Nonetheless I understand your contention.  You want more points for doing it the hard way.  Always difficult to draw the line on that idea?  Where do we stop?  Should I get more points if I cut down my own balsa tree and mill my own sheets.  Should I get more points for building my own engine?  Historically "building it yourself" has a bearing on the static portion of the scale score, but not too much on the flying portion.

Mike Gretz

The handle the pilot is holding is still doing elevation/pitch of the model, right?   I admire someone with the determination and talent/skill to do the electronics.   Also isn't there an event in Scale for those that want to compete or get their feet wet in scale competition?   Plus why is it that some people are against inovation and progress?   

So...

What is the point of tethering an R/C model?

Win-win,

EXCEPT - People who have built models that comply with honest Control LKine rules.

EXCEPT - People who have invested time and money in businesses based on complying with the rules.

Fortunately, this lunacy will have to clear one, and maybe several Contest Boards to get into The Rule Book.  The is the biggest and dumbest idea since lowering the age limits on Junior & Senior, which instantly destroyed both age groups.

-------------------

So the cost of a CL scale model goes up $300 and we're all still equal.  Where's the Win-Win in that?

If everybody wanted the newest thing, everybody would just buy RC park flyers and let Free Flight and Control Line vanish. 

The ongoing existance of the above is evidence that sport is not like business or war.  You don't need the newest thing to survive.  Archery and horse racing are still alive as sports, for the same reasons as FF and CL.