Northwest Regionals

[Tim Wescott]

Beginner and Intermediate were judged by people both of whom are women.  ...  Profile judges were both world stunt champions.

And man, were they strict.  Normally I walk away from an Intermediate (or even Sportsman Profile) match feeling like I was judged on a different scale than if I'd been flying Advanced or Expert.  This weekend was different.  I got the feeling that David and Paul were judging Profile on the same scale, and with the same amount of attention, that they would have judged Open at the Nats.  The feeling I got from Alice and the Dragon Lady was similar -- they were paying attention, and they weren't giving us any slack at all for being bottom-feeders.  I appreciate that no end -- since I've started doing well in Intermediate I've been looking at the Advanced and Expert score boards and asking myself where I would have ended up, then thinking "no, that's too high".  This time I felt like things were much more realistic.

Between the number of competitors and the weather I'm sure that Sunday was grueling for all the judges; I know that I was happier to be out flying in heavy rain than I would have been huddled over a clipboard trying to write on soaked paper.  

I'm glad we have folks in the community that are willing to step up and do the job.

[Derek Barry]

Hey, Derek, you build very nice planes as far as I can tell. So, excuse yourself from any east coast comments.   

10-4 Randy. 

Derek

[Doug Moon]

This is an interesting line of conversation that could get out of hand very fast and looks to be headed that way.

I saw several words in the thread that could be taken to heart right off the bat, Craftsmanship and Pride.  These two words were used in very broad and sweeping assumptions that start this very kind of conversation that leads to nothing good and more bickering, insults, pointless diatribes, and on and on and on….  These things are very sensitive topics, correct?

East Coast / West Coast jabs are all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out.  And somewhere along the way there is always an eye poking.

It is very clear to all of us aero modelers, and anyone who works with their hands on anything, there is a sense of pride in one’s craftsmanship no matter what the level.  Case and point in the “Sam’s Streak” thread.  The look on his face after the build is complete and model is ready for flight says it all.  If he enters that model in a contest in the beginner class where there are no appearance points awarded and no BOM rule for entry does he all of a sudden have no pride in his craftsmanship?  That makes no sense.

The contest and how it is run has no bearing on someone’s pride that they take in building a model airplane.  At least it doesn’t for me and for many others I know.  When I set out to build a model I plan to do it to the best of my abilities.  Sure, from time to time we slap together a trainer or two but that isn’t what you take to a contest to compete with.  I would think that this would be the case for anyone anywhere in the world that decides to build their own model to compete with.  It has to be the best they can offer or they can’t be at their best on the field. If someone is going to give the model 14 or 15 points means nothing. That has no bearing one’s pride or craftsmanship they have in their model.  Do you think Howard Rush or Derek Barry are going to show up at a contest with a plane that is less than stunning when it comes to the fit and finish and execution of the task attempted?  HELL NO!

Statements that an entire group of modelers based on geographical location and the type of contest that is run in their area have no pride and don’t care about craftsmanship are going to be taken negatively no matter the intent. This should be a known fact by now concerning any borderline comments when it comes to East Coast vs West Coast… 

[Eric Viglione]

Doug - Your not too bad at hitting tiny nails with big hammers yourself... right on. Once again, we fall victim to the pitfalls of electronic communication, and perhaps a poke that should have been left un-poked. Unfortunately, letting a silly statement pass is as bad as accepting it as truth, and I can see where some would, or even should, want to make a correction.

EricV

[Howard Rush]

    Names? <crickets chirping>

I think Dennis could have been referring to the Bob Hunt wing in my last IC-powered Impact.  It is not alone west of the Rockies. 

[Howard Rush]

Statements that an entire group of modelers based on geographical location and the type of contest that is run in their area have no pride and don’t care about craftsmanship are going to be taken negatively no matter the intent.

The opposite may be true.  A person who takes an immaculate model to a contest where it won't get appearance points does so for the purist of motives.  Someone like me, however, will touch up and wax his plane for a couple of points, but for a contest without appearance points, he won't.  I haven't been to many eastern stunt contests recently, but I've been to the Nats, where there is a roomful of beautiful airplanes, and I've been to the world championships, where there are fewer.  Look at the airplanes that show up at the US F2B team trials.  Same guys, same geographical distribution as the Nats.  Team trials airplanes aren't as pretty, because the contestants don't have the incentive to make them so.  Appearance points make for contests that are more impressive to observers.  I think they help to sell the event to prospective participants and to the public.  I don't see why all CDs just don't go by the AMA rules.

I wonder if some CDs have looked at the rulebook in the last decade.  I see contest announcements that say, "No BOM", sometimes without mention of appearance points.  They might as well say "no outside triangles".

[RandySmith]

The opposite may be true.  A person who takes an immaculate model to a contest where it won't get appearance points does so for the purist of motives.  Someone like me, however, will touch up and wax his plane for a couple of points, but for a contest without appearance points, he won't.  I haven't been to many eastern stunt contests recently, but I've been to the Nats, where there is a roomful of beautiful airplanes, and I've been to the world championships, where there are fewer.  Look at the airplanes that show up at the US F2B team trials.  Same guys, same geographical distribution as the Nats.  Team trials airplanes aren't as pretty, because the contestants don't have the incentive to make them so.  Appearance points make for contests that are more impressive to observers.  I think they help to sell the event to prospective participants and to the public.  I don't see why all CDs just don't go by the AMA rules.

I wonder if some CDs have looked at the rulebook in the last decade.  I see contest announcements that say, "No BOM", sometimes without mention of appearance points.  They might as well say "no outside triangles".

Howard  you may have a point, and that "may" be true for a very few, however I have seen it not to be be for most of the modelers I have seen bring em !!

I also agree that CD should use and go by the rules...however many contest are club sponsored, and club run, and some insist on dumping the BOM and AP rule, that is their right if they want to do it that way, Sadly I disagree , like you, I would rather see the APs given.
 Most of the ones here however  DO NOT say  NO BOM,  they say  no appearance points, most ALL  local contest use  PAMPA skill classes that does NOT have any mandatory BOM rule, and never has.  Note their is a difference between  APs and  BOM.... some blurr  that line.

By the way...there is NO  mandatory BOM  rule at most all of the West Coast contest I have seen either, They too use PAMPA classes.
Regards
Randy

[Dennis Moritz]

Howard mention the Bob Hunt wing to me. I was having fun.

[Randy Powell]

I'd probably use some of that east coast stuff, but I can't afford it. So I just do it myself.   

[Randy Powell]

And a very nice report on Flying Lines. Nice pictures, John.

[Howard Rush]

Most of the ones here however  DO NOT say  NO BOM,  they say  no appearance points, most ALL  local contest use  PAMPA skill classes that does NOT have any mandatory BOM rule, and never has.  Note their is a difference between  APs and  BOM.... some blurr  that line.

By the way...there is NO  mandatory BOM  rule at most all of the West Coast contest I have seen either, They too use PAMPA classes.

Balderdash.  Every Stunt News issue, I wade through these "No BOM, no appearance points" contest announcements to make the contest calendar.  Last night I sent a guy who advertised "No BOM" a note to ask him if he understood that the only events requiring (and only loosely) the contestants to have built their own models are the Nats age classes.  The same club put on a contest a few years ago that had both an ARF event and a "no-BOM, no appearance points" PA event.  To wit, identical events, except that in one, the contestant was forbidden to have built his own airplane.  It's nice that these guys put on contests for us; maybe we should help out more.  

Folks unfamiliar with the rules also refer to the PA events as "PAMPA".  They haven't been for several years.  Skill classes are part of the AMA rules.  

[RandySmith]

Balderdash.  Every Stunt News issue, I wade through these "No BOM, no appearance points" contest announcements to make the contest calendar.  Last night I sent a guy who advertised "No BOM" a note to ask him if he understood that the only events requiring (and only loosely) the contestants to have built their own models are the Nats age classes.  The same club put on a contest a few years ago that had both an ARF event and a "no-BOM, no appearance points" PA event.  To wit, identical events, except that in one, the contestant was forbidden to have built his own airplane.  It's nice that these guys put on contests for us; maybe we should help out more.  

Folks unfamiliar with the rules also refer to the PA events as "PAMPA".  They haven't been for several years.  Skill classes are part of the AMA rules.  

Uhh NO  its not balderdash...they could care less if you built or did not build your plane, the only thing they are telling you is that you will get  NO  APs, you can build your plane or NOT but in those contest they just want to ***NOT***  award any appence points,,,that is the  goal.
 NOW they maybe  confusing this by saying no BOM, but since  NONE of the contest require the BOM anyway (even the West Coast contest), what they are saying is simply this ... NO APs !
And it matters NOT  that the  PAMPA  skill classes are  now all in the rule book,  They are  still, and will always  be the PAMPA skill classes...just because  AMA has adopted them doesn't  moot  the fact that they were created  by PAMPA  to promote this event. and they are  PAMPA  Skill classes , that also does not mean they can't also be  AMA skill classes 

Randy

[Paul Walker]

This really started as a N W Regionals report. If you want to talk BOM, go somewhere else.....A pace that I can avoid!

Thanks for hijacking the thread Howard. 

[Mark Scarborough]

This really started as a N W Regionals report. If you want to talk BOM, go somewhere else.....A pace that I can avoid!

Paul, public thanks to you and Dave for stepping up and judging profile , both classes,,

sorry my entertainment value plummeted,,, at least Pat and I found the problem,,

despite sundays uh,, weather (?) ,, I had a great time,,

[Howard Rush]

Stop by for your trophy and prize on the way back to the ranch.  See?  Back on topic.

[Paul Walker]

Tanks a lot.

[Alan Resinger]

I thought it was a battery holder.

[Paul Walker]

I thought it was a battery holder.

Were you a part of that "effort"?

[Alan Resinger]

As I recall,it was a group decision.  A rather large group.

[Alan Resinger]

When Uncle Jimby went up to get David's trophy, he went to the prize table and selected a nice holding fixture for soldering, complete with a built in magnifying glass.  There was loud applause from the electron crowd.

[Brett Buck]

Guys - a clarification. Kestas and Igor definitely *built their own airplanes* from molds, etc. They are magnificent but definitely built by themselves using very advanced techniques. Howard was joking above, these are no "parts is parts" airplane bought offshore, they are made with loving care in Southern California. Both are sportsmen of the highest order and would not have taken part in appearance judging if they did not build the airplanes.

   If you want to argue they are professionally constructed, that might be a good point, I think both are employed by a major UAV manufacturer where this sort of construction is common. Although I bet the finish isn't this good!

   An offline comment noted that the commenter wasn't aware of anyone in the US being able to build airplanes this way. I am sure there are any number of people who could do this (Howard at the head of the list, assuming you didn't care how long it took...), maybe not as nicely, but perfectly functional. Jose Modesto does something along the same lines, more like the Yatsenkos than a pure composite like I think these are, but also very nicely made. So people can do it.

 Until otherwise proven I assume ALL the airplanes that show up at a contest are legit, and meet all the requirements of the event, or the appropriate penalty is accepted. Cheating, gray areas, etc, are *virtually unheard of* in my rather extensive experience over the last 35ish years I have been doing this.

   I dug through my pictures and as near as I can tell, not only were there no "parts is parts" airplanes, there were also only a few ARFs and, in appearance judging pictures I see only one *kit*, and the rest were scratch-built. Which is about the usual mix that I see. Appearance judge Ted Fancher also noted that the quality of construction and finish was pretty exceptional, there were no dogs or even mediocre airplanes, they were uniformly well-built. There were some ARFs around, and that's fine,  but no one attempted to take credit for them - which is also universally the case.

    Note also that Igor was also one of the first people to explore the "ultra-low-rev" approach to 4-strokes, and that worked pretty darn well, too. I think Kestas was using a Stalker (maybe a 76?) and Igor some variety of electric.

   Brett

[Larry Fernandez]

To add to what Brett said.
At the Golden State Meet last year, I had the pleasure of seeing Igor's plane up close and personal. He brought out a photo album with over a hundred pictures of every step of the assembly. Ladies and Gentlemen, this plane is not an ARF or RTF. And the meticulous work and detail is unbelievable.
Brett has posted more than once, that my PT-19 is the nicest model airplane he has ever seen. This was most humbling to say the least.
But I have to say with out question, that Igor's plane was out of my league.
Igor was kind enough to spend a substantial amount of time, discussing his building, prep and painting techniques, the materials and equipment he uses.
I was blown away by little things, like his tail wheel assembly. A very scale like forked gear, that was cut from an aluminum block and filed to shape. This  was also documented with photos. As soon as I got home, I cut the tail wheel off of my PT-19, and made up a forked tail wheel assembly like his.
 Thanks Igor, it came out awesome. I will post pictures on another thread.
If any of you happen to be lucky enough to meet with Igor, take a very close look at his plane. The more you look at it, the more you will appreciate the flawless workmanship. Ask him all the questions you want, as I am certain he would love to tell you of his techniques.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team  

[Bob Whitely]

Brett is absolutely correct, Igor did build and paint his plane and it is museum
quality. All the rest that Brett said is also correct. That is what makes this hobby
what it is. Those  of you that bemoan the fact that Igor's plane is too perfect just
means that he spent more time building it than you do your models. All the rest of
us just have to work a little harder to keep up!  RJ

[PJ Rowland]

Back to topic..

I'm trying to wade through all this BOM nonesess to get to the heart of the NW Regionals story, I know who won, I know who came second..


Most important of all - I know how many of the Top 10 used Vortex Generators... not to mention the Top 2...

I thought this might have perhaps been a topic of conversation more so that " He said she said BOM garbage " 
 

[Matt Colan]

Back to topic..

I'm trying to wade through all this BOM nonesess to get to the heart of the NW Regionals story, I know who won, I know who came second..


Most important of all - I know how many of the Top 10 used Vortex Generators... not to mention the Top 2...

I thought this might have perhaps been a topic of conversation more so that " He said she said BOM garbage " 
 

And the winner had more vortex generators on his plane than everybody else. I asked Dave and he said he noticed a difference with each one he put on. Ended up with five total on each wing panel. He had Four on the bottom.

[Russell Shaffer]

David also had them on the stabilizer.  He also sprayed some oil which may have helped?

[Howard Rush]

Most important of all - I know how many of the Top 10 used Vortex Generators... not to mention the Top 2...

Looks like places 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8.  They seem to work for most everybody right where you said to put them.  There's more experimenting to do with location, spacing, and orientation, but sticking them on with rubber cement makes it easy to try different configurations without messing up the airplane.

[Derek Barry]

I hate to bring this back up but a few comments have been made that I need to address. I have seen a lot of Ukrainian ARFs and RTFs, it was my fault for assuming that every one in existence was made by one of the well know distributers. Brett is right that I had no idea that someone was actually making them here in the US.  I know that other people make similar composite planes but none to the caliber of what I had seen from the Ukraine. After a talk with Larry, Howard, and Brett I was realized that I made a mistake in my assumptions. (I heard I was not the only one making these assumptions)

  Igor if you read this, I apologize for assuming that you did not build your own plane and I hope that you will one day come to the Nats so I can see it in person. Larry told me that you are among the best builder/finishers he has ever met and coming from him this says a lot!

Derek

[PJ Rowland]

Good stuff Derek, I always say anyone can make accusations but it takes a man to admit a mistake. ( Now we just need you to admit the electric is superior! hahhah )


Howard : I'm happy for others to do the experimenting now, I personally feel ( after talking to David ) that the technology has room to grow for assisting further in getting a plane to perform better. My own views for my own program are that no extra VG's beyond just the single pair on each of the wings will help me perform any better - Im happy to admit more practice is where I need to be to get into the Top 10 at a Nats.

I'm so glad that after 15 + years of using them and having COUNTLESS name fliers telling me they are useless and wont work ( or were tried back in the 60's ) that I ignored the masses and trusted my own instinct. Now here we are with multiple Nats winners and world champions using them to improve decorated stunt ships makes me realise all experiments and the effort was worth it.

My advice to anyone is - If you think your doing something right, don't let Johnny No-body tell you it wont work. However thats not to say that when a name flier gives you advice you ignore it.

Its a personal sport with only 1 outcome and only 1 winner.  This time around it was Dave Fitzgerald and his VG / PA75 Powered Thunder Gazer II.

[Igor]

I hate to bring this back up but a few comments have been made that I need to address. I have seen a lot of Ukrainian ARFs and RTFs, it was my fault for assuming that every one in existence was made by one of the well know distributers. Brett is right that I had no idea that someone was actually making them here in the US.  I know that other people make similar composite planes but none to the caliber of what I had seen from the Ukraine. After a talk with Larry, Howard, and Brett I was realized that I made a mistake in my assumptions. (I heard I was not the only one making these assumptions)

  Igor if you read this, I apologize for assuming that you did not build your own plane and I hope that you will one day come to the Nats so I can see it in person. Larry told me that you are among the best builder/finishers he has ever met and coming from him this says a lot!

Derek

Thank you Derek ! You do not have to apologize! But thank you again ! Tell you honestly I have used all ready to that, when stunt people see my Extra 300S ; made using Alexandr Osetrov's kit, many of them instantly think that is unposible to build in garage style shop, and conclusion is: It is  ARF. "The guy obviously reach if he can buy it " in many cases the envy may be involve. So it does not help our US stunt community any how. I think this is typical stereotype what they have. Bob Hunt has made many explanation in his articles about Ukrainian composite models and Ukrainian builders. Mainly about Yatsenko's models. This is very narrow  stunt market for those models. And they have started to sale their kit in different packages. Than was time , when they have reconsidered how kit is supposed to be made, in order to make process of assembly more simple.People, who tried to build models in their shops, using Ukrainian kits (Premolded shells etc.) made those wrong and damaged reputation of brand. Yes, it is require skills and more knowledge compare to traditional build of models technic out of balsa wood kit. Some times many consultations and build of model class. But it is possible. Lets say : if you would come over to Car show and watched there beautiful car, the newest  Look and technology; and than yo come over in to another room and see there : same car in scratch units , as kit. It cost : 60% less from Ready do drive car. What would you think ? You would collect all the aspects of your possibilities and critically put it on the weight scale, before you buy it. If you would like to talk more about it lets not irritate Our stunt community wit BOM rules  etc. on the forum. We can talk on the phone or E mail. Please look my name in PAMPA book. Thank you again ! Igor.

[Derek Barry]

Good stuff Derek, I always say anyone can make accusations but it takes a man to admit a mistake. ( Now we just need you to admit the electric is superior! hahhah )


Howard : I'm happy for others to do the experimenting now, I personally feel ( after talking to David ) that the technology has room to grow for assisting further in getting a plane to perform better. My own views for my own program are that no extra VG's beyond just the single pair on each of the wings will help me perform any better - Im happy to admit more practice is where I need to be to get into the Top 10 at a Nats.

I'm so glad that after 15 + years of using them and having COUNTLESS name fliers telling me they are useless and wont work ( or were tried back in the 60's ) that I ignored the masses and trusted my own instinct. Now here we are with multiple Nats winners and world champions using them to improve decorated stunt ships makes me realise all experiments and the effort was worth it.

My advice to anyone is - If you think your doing something right, don't let Johnny No-body tell you it wont work. However thats not to say that when a name flier gives you advice you ignore it.

Its a personal sport with only 1 outcome and only 1 winner.  This time around it was Dave Fitzgerald and his VG / PA75 Powered Thunder Gazer II.

Dave called me a few months back and asked if I had tried them yet, I told him no. He is convinced that they do in fact do something and he seemed to really like it. My new plane flies better than anything I have built in many years so I don't think I will be gluing any little VGs to mine. Dave said that if I want to beat Paul then I better use them. I guess we will see if VGs trump towering awesomeness in a month and a half...

Derek

[Derek Barry]

( Now we just need you to admit the electric is superior! hahhah )

Well..............Not yet. I did fly Bob's Genesis Extreme and it flies very well. He said the Crossfire is much better and after we are done in Muncie, assuming the weather is good, I will get a ride on that one too. So I can't say superior just yet but it is defiantly good.

I still love my PA 65!

Derek

[Doug Moon]

Dave called me a few months back and asked if I had tried them yet, I told him no. He is convinced that they do in fact do something and he seemed to really like it. My new plane flies better than anything I have built in many years so I don't think I will be gluing any little VGs to mine. Dave said that if I want to beat Paul then I better use them. I guess we will see if VGs trump towering awesomeness in a month and a half...

Derek

I tried them in the hot summer months after the 2011 nats.  They do work! I did a write up on it somewhere on this board.

Flights of towering awesomeness will be in Muncie this year for sure.  But who will own them??...............some bald guy Dallas has a pretty good idea...

[Derek Barry]

I tried them in the hot summer months after the 2011 nats.  They do work! I did a write up on it somewhere on this board.

Flights of towering awesomeness will be in Muncie this year for sure.  But who will own them??...............some bald guy Dallas has a pretty good idea...

 

[Martin Quartim]

I'm so glad that after 15 + years of using them and having COUNTLESS name fliers telling me they are useless and wont work ( or were tried back in the 60's ) that I ignored the masses and trusted my own instinct. Now here we are with multiple Nats winners and world champions using them to improve decorated stunt ships makes me realise all experiments and the effort was worth it.

My advice to anyone is - If you think your doing something right, don't let Johnny No-body tell you it wont work. However thats not to say that when a name flier gives you advice you ignore it.

PJ

I know exactly  how you feel! There is a Winston Churchil quote that I love and it is perfect for situations like this "The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is"

Martin

[Howard Rush]

My new plane flies better than anything I have built in many years so I don't think I will be gluing any little VGs to mine.

At least let us see it while it's still pretty.  Better yet, save it for a rainy day and fly the Matrix airplane.

[Derek Barry]

At least let us see it while it's still pretty.  Better yet, save it for a rainy day and fly the Matrix airplane.

Doing a little touch up buffing on her right now just for you Howard.

Now the Matrix could certainly use some VGs. With VGs and a PA 75 it might be almost flyable.

Derek

[Eric Viglione]

Derek - Stenciling all that Matrix code on all those little V/G's would be a royal pain even though I'm sure it would be fun to come up with some subliminal messages for PJ on them... 

So, much to Howards dismay, I'll suggest leaving that one on display with the big prop next to it and take your best weapon to the shootout... oh, and bring the WC Dreadnought for your backup, Matrix doesn't need any temptations to come out of retirement. 

See, I'm there for ya buddy, heh.

EricV

[Brett Buck]

Flights of towering awesomeness will be in Muncie this year for sure.  But who will own them??...............some bald guy Dallas has a pretty good idea...

  Well I don't know about the flights themselves but I certainly expect a royalty on the profligate use of my majestic and poetic phrase!

   I came in a distant third at the Regionals and I am sure it was due to my wanton disregard for vortex generators.

   Brett

[Steve Helmick]

The winning flight of the day for Intermediate was the last one, put in by Doug Knoyle for 400 points; he was rewarded for sticking it out with a bit of slightly better air, which he did a great job of leveraging to a winning flight.  The second-place flight was Paul Gibeault (I'll edit this later with the right spelling) from windy Edmundton at 399, put in just before Doug.  Jim Harper was in the lead coming into the first round and I was second.  I chickened out after the inside loops (so that's what they mean when they say wind up) but did six inverted laps just to put a lid on my resolution not to try my luck or lack of skill or whatever before doing a half-loop to level and flying out the rest of the tank level.  Jim, if I recall correctly, bagged it after two laps inverted.  I'm not going to say who else flew or not -- the scores will show.

There were no crashes in Intermediate.

The RED is mine. And it's really spelt Edmonton (not Edmundton), but I believe Paul still lives in Leduc, south a ways, as he works at the "new" airport for one of the airlines...maybe Air Canada. "Perry Fire" is one of my favorite contest...early August. Weather is often quite nice. But like our contests, ignore the month and bring Polarfleece, just in case. Nice town.  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

Thanks for the spelling correction.

I'd love to get up there on my own time -- alas, all the traveling I do these days is on someone else's dime.

[Ted Fancher]

snip ( Now we just need you to admit the electric is superior! hahhah )


snip

I, at least, am convinced that, although vortex generators have proven modestly capable of redirecting the eye stinging smoke, the electric version is superior to the candle under difficult reading conditions.

Thomas E.

[Brett Buck]

I, at least, am convinced that, although vortex generators have proven modestly capable of redirecting the eye stinging smoke, the electric version is superior to the candle under difficult reading conditions.

Thomas E.

    Not for me!  It's good old fashioned whale oil and plenty of it!

    Brett

[RandySmith]

    Not for me!  It's good old fashioned whale oil and plenty of it!

    Brett

The EPA  will come to your house break the door in and confiscate ALL   your  illegal  whale  oil......  best  keep that to yourself !     LOL 

[PJ Rowland]

All I've ever said is try it - at least once. Its one of those things like trimming a model if you know what your doing you will see improvements !!

If you like the benieits it presents - continue to use them If you feel the model performs better without them, then do so.


I certainly think it will take a serious effort to stop Dave or Paul at the Nats this year...

[Howard Rush]

Dave who?  Which Nats?  Capt. Fitzgerald has taken a couple of years off to run the US stunt Nats.  To do so at the peak of his competitiveness shows his dedication to our community.  It is a shame, though, to see all those vortex generators idle.

[PJ Rowland]

Ok that means only one thing, and only 1 winner.

First electric to win the Nats.....

[Larry Fernandez]

Dave who?  Which Nats?  Capt. Fitzgerald has taken a couple of years off to run the US stunt Nats.  To do so at the peak of his competitiveness shows his dedication to our community.  It is a shame, though, to see all those vortex generators idle.

Thanks for making this point Howard.
Dave has been one of my stunt hero's for years. I know how competitive he is and for him to take a back seat to competition to run the NATS says volumes of his dedication to our great and beloved event.
Hats off to you Dave and to all who give of themselves so that we can enjoy this great hobby.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Derek Barry]

Ok that means only one thing, and only 1 winner.

First electric to win the Nats.....

Nope

[Paul Walker]

Nope

That's a NOPE on the nope.  Now don't get Bob upset!