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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Randy Powell on May 12, 2013, 02:10:58 PM
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Well, the Northwest Regionals are coming up. It's looking less and less like I'm going to make it. In fact, most won't see me till later in the summer. I will be out of town for the Stunt-A-Thon. I will be gone also for the Vancouver contest. More's the pity. But I should be back in the saddle for contests in August, September and October. Such is life sometimes.
In the mean time, I hope there is a great turnout for the Regionals. It may be the last year at the Eugene site (thanks Eugene Airport). Be nice is a lot of guys turned out.
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Randy,,,,
no you have to be there,, its not an option dude,,
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Randy,,,,
no you have to be there,, its not an option dude,,
TELL 'IM MARK!!!! Heck I'd come but I'm on the other end of the country and can hardly make the "local" meets
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Well that's a bummer.I have been impatiently waiting to see you operate with your first electric . I guess horse shows come first for a married man , eh? Keith
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Not horse shows. Work. Not fun sometimes.
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Well since you can't make the NW Regional, but will be available in October why not drop on down to Central CA for the GSSC? 35th anniversary this year, that's special.
Brian
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Brian,
That may be in the cards. Hopefully by then things will have settled down. I'm working on it.
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Brian,
That may be in the cards. Hopefully by then things will have settled down. I'm working on it.
Well Yea!
Brian
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Good new! I'm healing very well after my back surgery two weeks ago and the doctor gave me a green light to fly at Regionals. CLP** Not that any of you need to worry, I'll be taking that last place trophy. ;D I don't think I'll have new P-51 Sport .40 carrier ready, but I fixed the Corsair from last year. It's ready for a little patching then paint.
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Very good news Scott! That "plumbers putty" you use must have done the trick. Maybe I'll take pitty on you and let you win NWS40. NOT n~ Mike
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Duke and Mike, have fun! Once again I will not be attending the Regionals or Brodak's this year. Maybe something elsewhere yet to happen this year.Joe
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Joe, there are three NWS40 contests this year. One at the airport in Puyallup and two at the Auburn airport. Check http://flyinglines.org/ for dates and places. Mike
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Clear the deck! I'll be giving NW Sport Carrier a try next week. Ought to be interesting...and fun! 8)
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Very good news Scott! That "plumbers putty" you use must have done the trick. Maybe I'll take pitty on you and let you win NWS40. NOT n~ Mike
Maybe I can pull a rabbit out of the hat and take something other that 3rd place for a change.
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Clear the deck! I'll be giving NW Sport Carrier a try next week. Ought to be interesting...and fun! 8)
you can't do any worse than me!
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So, guys should start arriving today. Sigh....
Good luck you guys and I hope the weather holds up for you.
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Yep, people are arriving and the field is all set up (great work by Mike Denlis and Crew!). Alan Resinger was the first to get some flying in with some morning practice flights. Tomorrow begins the 43rd Regionals. #^
--jt
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We are all but loaded for an early get up. Just need to load clothes and pick up Doug in the morning. Can't wait to be at our first Regionals. The old Dodge will have eleven planes, me, my two boys, and Doug. Can't wait!
<= ~> #^ (PE**) CLP** HH%% o2oP
If I do it right you should have a picture of the 11 planes in the truck and then one of the homemade crash rack to protect the planes from the other gear and maybe a fast stop.
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Instead of cardboard, I always used old blankets, towels or even pillows to protect planes from the movement they get from traveling on the long distance road trips.
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Hope lots of pictures get posted here. I can attend vicariously.
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Almost all packed. I'm going to try to get some billable work done before I pack up the perishables and go.
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I would like to suggest that anybody driving in from Vancouver, B.C. area, which means going south on I-5, be awarded extra points no matter the event. Yes, even Alan. He was smart enough to get to Eugene early and is bound to have a brutal trip home.
With love from Washington state where (evidently) loads trailered on trucks are substantially stronger than freeway bridges.
Dan
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With love from Washington state where (evidently) loads trailered on trucks are substantially stronger than freeway bridges.
For the curious:
http://www.katu.com/news/local/I-5-Skagit-River-bridge-collapse-caused-by-oversize-load-208813861.html (http://www.katu.com/news/local/I-5-Skagit-River-bridge-collapse-caused-by-oversize-load-208813861.html)
Wow. I'm selfishly glad that this isn't between me and any Washington contests. They say "a couple of weeks" before things go to normal, but somehow I think it'll take longer than that to get a bridge up.
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All we really know is that the bridge is well and truly broken. But as I frequently tell folk, as a group journalists are hardly the sharpest knives in the drawer.
Last night I heard one of them mention that the sun was going down and thus it would soon be dark the river would be getting colder. For those not familiar with this area of the NW the Skagit river flows from the Cascades. The water is melted snow. From noon to midnight there can't possibly be a temperature variation worth discussing.
Another: A couple months ago we had some pretty serious slide activity. As in homes being lost. In describing the size of the problem a journo referred to the slide in square feet. I kinda thought cubic feet might give a more accurate description.
I figure in two weeks they'll have better "Detour" signs but that's about it.
Dan
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Highway 9 seems the best option around the mess. I agree with Dan; maybe 3 months, not 2 weeks. Maybe.
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Your results may vary:
"In 1994, the Northridge earthquake in Southern California damaged four bridges on the Santa Monica Freeway in Los Angeles. C.C. Myers, Inc. won the contract to replace them. The contract specified that the work had to be completed in 140 days, and the State of California, understanding the loss to the LA economy that was caused by the freeway being down, offered a $200,000 per day bonus for each day prior to the 140 days that the bridge opened. With the cooperation and extra effort from Caltrans, the City of Los Angeles, the workers, and even the citizens of LA, the company completed the job in 66 days, a full 74 days ahead of schedule. The $14.8M bonus is the largest early completion bonus paid by Caltrans. The closure of the freeway was estimated to cost the economy of the area as much as $1M per day.[5]"
McSlow
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Yea, but we are talking about Washington, here. They make each penny squeal.
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Hope lots of pictures get posted here. I can attend vicariously.
Yep, what Randy said. y1 y1 y1
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Instead of cardboard, I always used old blankets, towels or even pillows to protect planes from the movement they get from traveling on the long distance road trips.
I didn't want to get fuel on anything. Thought about going to goodwill or yard sales for old blankets. Thanks
More pictures tonight.
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Put the core of engineers on the problem. They will have the traffic moving across the river in no time.
Also I have yet seen where the college educated media could get anything right.
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No pictures? %^@
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Here's one of Paul Gibeault and my boys. He taught them about mouse racing today.
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The newspaper reports officials are looking for any existing bridge span that might be available as a temporary fix.
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Current weather report says you guys are getting typical Regionals weather.
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Since no one has reported NW Regionals weather. Here goes:
Friday started cold and overcast, although winds were slight. The sun came out around noon and it warmed up quite a bit. Winds were still calm.
Saturday was textbook flying weather: sunny and shirtsleeve weather. Winds almost none.
Sunday started overcast and cold. Throughout the day, low clouds passed through giving short rain squalls. The wind became fierce shortly after noon. Many flyers cancelled 2nd flights.
Since I entered in 3 events, I had no time for photos. There were a lot of cameras in use. I'm sure pictures will follow.
Floyd
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Bruce reported expert results: Dave, Paul, Brett, Howard and Bruce. In that order.
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I watched all of those guys flying. I would be hard pressed to pick a winner. I don't envy the judges.
Granderson was absent this year. To me, his flying beats anyone!
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The Johnson Boys had a blast, we drive home after a good nights rest. If they can sleep. The guys there were great.
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Put the core of engineers on the problem. They will have the traffic moving across the river in no time.
Also I have yet seen where the college educated media could get anything right.
You're looking for news sources that spell your way?
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Howard, don't forget I was partly educated in southern Missouri. Now how far is a far piece?
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We sure lucked out as far as rain goes, though -- rainy all week until Friday, then very little rain Friday and Saturday, some rain Sunday (I got soaked flying my first flight), then today it's coming down in that steady Oregon all-day moderate rain that makes you believe that God really could have flooded the world if he just kept the shower turned on for 40 days.
There was some wind Friday afternoon after the official flying. I rolled in around 4:00 PM and flew at around 5:00, and crashed.
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But there were NO crashes during the contest, except for the combat guys, who expect a crash.
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But there were NO crashes during the contest, except for the combat guys, who expect a crash.
There were two in Beginner Stunt. Both involved the engine cutting out at a bad spot in a maneuver, one during the pattern (4th place, 1st flight, Jerry Olson), and one after while trying to do a cutoff loop (I can't remember the guy's name, alas, but he was the 3rd place finisher, and it happened in his second flight). The damage was mild in both cases, but each left the plane unflyable until it went home for some repairs.
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I took a couple of pictures, not as many as I should have, but this one kind of sums up the conditions. Paul is always intent and is in full charge of his game plan but this is what trying to win in extremely tough conditions looks like. This was about half way through the first round of expert, around 11:30 AM and and after David F. had already put up what turn out to be the winning score. The wind although not so strong as to be unflyable it was tormented by the trees that border one side of the field. Above 45 degrees all bets were of as far as absolute control goes but he still finished a very close second. The rain started awhile later then I got to fly, or at least survive the required time to get a pattern in. Most flew the first round with only a couple of scratches, the second round was a different story. A few of the "tough guys" flew, including Paul who has a way of pulling things out even in tough conditions, but not today. David won with his normal solid execution. Brett Buck also flew earlier and put up a solid flight, as he usually does. The last guy up in the first round was, I think, Jim Rhoades with his beautiful and Classic winning "Apterix". He handled it quite well with more than a few high resolution sphincter moments and some very low bottoms. The last scheduled flier for the round, I think, was Pat Johnston who passed.
Some time later, I noticed that the grass circle was still in action with the Intermediate fliers. I don't know how many passes they had but they kept going long after we all bailed out. Kudos to them and I didn't see any crashes either.
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Mike,
who won the pilots choice? I elected to head out as I did not place in any of my events and the near 500 mile drive was calling my name,,
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Some time later, I noticed that the grass circle was still in action with the Intermediate fliers. I don't know how many passes they had but they kept going long after we all bailed out. Kudos to them and I didn't see any crashes either.
The winning flight of the day for Intermediate was the last one, put in by Doug Knoyle for 400 points; he was rewarded for sticking it out with a bit of slightly better air, which he did a great job of leveraging to a winning flight. The second-place flight was Paul Gelinas (I'll edit this later with the right spelling) from windy Edmundton at 399, put in just before Doug. Jim Harper was in the lead coming into the first round and I was second. I chickened out after the inside loops (so that's what they mean when they say wind up) but did six inverted laps just to put a lid on my resolution not to try my luck or lack of skill or whatever before doing a half-loop to level and flying out the rest of the tank level. Jim, if I recall correctly, bagged it after two laps inverted. I'm not going to say who else flew or not -- the scores will show.
There were no crashes in Intermediate.
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Guess I'll have to wait for the Flying Lines article to come out to see more pictures.
:-[
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well the advanced was won by a Canadian,, LOL
as I recall when I stormed off,, I mean headed for home,, the storm was in the skies,
Dave McHeyne won Advanced with a 509,, second was a 502, third was a 496 and fourth with no dust collectors was Me with 493.5, as of the last time I looked at the scores,, The second round was over very quickly,, the first and second took flights,, third passed, fourth flew, and I think at that point those who were not blown into the adjacent fields, elected to pass ,, perhaps it was something to do with the judges sinking anchor bolts into the asphalt to keep from blowing into the circle,,
Saturday classic, all I know is my woes,, To short runs in classic,, the second flight was almost as good as I have ever flown the Avenger,, Profile, Pat and I shared the MakoJet,, Him in expert profile, me in sportsman,, My flight ran out of fuel just before the hourglass,, ( notice a theme here?) Pat overan on his flight,,Then his second, I cannot recall what he did,, but then my second I took off and started,, the engine went very rich just as I entered the reverse wingover,, I pulled out upright ( do you know how hard it is to do that,, man,, it sucks) ,, then as I flew out the tank the motor sort of came around and actually went a bit lean,, as I flew around level in the best air of the round,, dangit,,,, my final attempt we fueled, and set out to beat the world,, as Pat was priming it, he noted that it really did not want to turn over, my last flight did not happen, the motor was lockign up at top DC,,,, later diagnostics indicated some rather disturbing metal transfer on the piston,, One dead LA 46,,
Sunday flew the Avenger with another 300 rpm and made it through all the tricks, One of my stronger flights,, no second was attempted,,
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Mike,
who won the pilots choice? I elected to head out as I did not place in any of my events and the near 500 mile drive was calling my name,,
Alan Resinger won the concours (pilot's choice) with his gorgeous Crossfire.
Note that Dave McChene indeed won Advanced with no appearance points. He was flying an electric converted Saturn built by Chris Cox.
Electric also won expert Profile ;D
Yes Randy, John will have many pictures posted in Flying Lines shortly. He took many pictures but it take him a few days just to recover from all of his hard work putting on the contest.
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I was wishing I could have been there. But maybe not with the weather. Everyone knows I'm a weather wimp.
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I was wishing I could have been there.
Randy, you need to learn how to ask for time off. Jeeze. "Hey boss, I'm going to be out from the 23rd to the 26th. Should I come back?"
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Pete Peterson won the Overall Stunt Champ trophy with second place finishes in both Old Time and Classic.
I noticed a low score for Robert Harness on his second round Classic flight and asked him what happened? He told me that the forward motor on his Two Bits stopped running due to a poor connection. He said that the rear motor does most of the work anyway and could have probably finished the pattern. Wanting to make sure he returned home with his cool model he opted out.
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Alan Resinger won the concours (pilot's choice) with his gorgeous Crossfire.
Not as shown in the above picture, though. The added bling of vortex generators put the Crossfire over the top:
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Classic was well, Classic! Jim led Pete after the first round by 1 point I think. The second round Pete put up a flight (a really good one) to pull ahead by one more. Jim went up last and edged him out. Good friends and really good competitors, fun to watch.
In case you forget what they, the models look like here they are. Both gorgeous! Ateryx is powered by PA .51 and Pete's Caprice pulled along with an Aero Tigre .36.
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I wanted to give a great big thanks to all my fellow fliers who were kind enough to vote the new Crossfire the Concours trophy. It is indeed an honor to be included in the list of winners that include Granderson, Aron, and Perry. The line-up of outstanding models at this years Reagionals was impressive to say the least.
This years competition had to be the toughest conditions I've ever flown in. Talking with some of the other Expert fliers, most agreed that they had never had tougher conditions to fly in. It wasn't the wind, which would have been manageable it was the rolling turbulence that was constantly moving in every possible direction. Anything above 45 degrees was a crapshoot. Fitz and I were talking and he said he only once before felt conditions that bad. Ted Fancher judged and said he'd never seen so many known good planes get the crap beat out of them like it did on Sunday. It was survival mode. Only seven fliers out of 19 experts chose to fly the second round. I remember hearing one time that the difference between experts and the lower classes is that they know when not to fly. The best wind flyer I've ever seen, Mr.Walker, let out a sigh of relief upon his return to the pits after his second flight.
Alan Resinger
Howard, VG's rule.
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Alan was one of the seven that flew the second round. Must be the VG's, or big ca hones... or something. It really was bad!
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Marilou and I motored into Eugene Friday evening. I went to the field, festooned my dog with VGs, and put in a couple of flights in the waning light of day. I then arose Saturday at approximately my normal bedtime and put in a couple more before being kicked off the paved circles by racing and Classic stunt. I watched Pat Johnston put up a humdinger of a flight in Profile, only to lose his pattern and landing points to an overrun. Lacking good grass gear and being tuckered from having arisen at approximately my normal bedtime, I spent the rest of the much-nicer-than-forecast day socializing and finding out who flew what in the Saturday stunt events. Old Time was on Friday, so I don't know who flew what in Old Time. If anybody knows, please email me soon, so I can get it into Stunt News. The reason for moving Old Time to Friday, according to a tabulator, was that it is so labor intensive, all scores having to be multiplied by weighting factors. That's how pure the Northwest Regionals is, folks. We use no tabulating technology for Old Time that wasn't around in 1953.
I went to the hotel to take a nap, intending to return to the field in the evening to fly more stunt, but the wx had caught up with the forecast, so we adjourned to the Outback and ate too much Australian food. I got up in the rosy fingered dawn to put in a couple of flights before appearance judging. The lineup for appearance judging was spectacular as usual. Even without Larry Fernandez and PT Granderson, there was a plethora of pretty planes. You Eastern stunt people who don't use appearance points because you think craftsmanship should be left to the Chinese should come out here to see how cool stunt planes can look.
Weather wasn't too awful when stunt began, but got kinda blustery as the first round progressed. The breeze was blowing through some trees and not whispering Louise. My flight had some bumpy air, but nothing really perverted, and my airplane got through it just fine, no doubt because of the vortex generators. I thought I had flown some darn good stunt until PW and my wife both informed me independently of the atrociousness of my overhead eights. Nevertheless, I led the Junior Varsity in the first round. The second round featured rain and more turbulence. Of those brave enough to fly, only Alan Resinger and Kestas Dvarvydis improved their scores. When Bruce Perry, who was nipping at my heels for the JV championship, passed, I allowed as how that if this round wasn't good enough for Bruce, it wasn't good enough for me. As at last year's Golden State Championships, the guy with the most vortex generators on his airplane won.
Don McClave was stunt ED and concentrated his effort on judge recruitment. He did produce some good judge pairings. Expert was judged by two gentlemen both of whom have Nats judge shirts identifying them as Ted Fancher. Advanced was judged by people named Dave, both of whom are or were married to people named Alice. Beginner and Intermediate were judged by people both of whom are women. Old Time was judged by people both of whom fly clockwise. Profile judges were both world stunt champions.
At the prize ceremony each trophy winner picks something from the table of merchandise loot. Paul Walker had departed to have dinner with his mom, so I got his trophy and at the urging of the crowd selected a nice fuel tank from the table.
Many NW Regionals contestants have been attending for over 30 years, and it's become a big family reunion. A bunch of us went to a fine dinner at the Hop Something after the contest. Marilou and I got there early so we wouldn't get home at midnight. We had a great time with the gang and got home at midnight.
See Stunt News and Flyinglines.org for the contest lowdown.
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I was a toad. I had promised Don McClave that I would judge but got caught and had to work. That and a pinched nerve in my neck made it pretty certain I wouldn't attend. But I'm glad you guys had a good contest.
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More pictures
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Another
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As I was driving down to Eugene with my new flying partner Marc, I was remembering going to my first Regionals with my old partner Dick Salter. Dick and I flew in every event the regionals offered except scale. We had some really good times. But I never really looked around at what it took to put this great event on. I told myself I am going to do that this year, as it may be the last one as we know it. What I did not realize before, was that it takes some really good dedicated people. From the people who set up and take down the event, to the wonderful people who run the different events. I went to every circle in use this year to see the event directors and helpers. As Marc and I were driving home last night he made a comment that he has not met a person he does not like, and everyone is so helpful. Everyone in every venue is willing to help, should you need it. From people helping you make a better motor run, or how to trim your aircraft for better performance, (thanks Paul) everyone is there for the same reason we are. To have fun, and do the best you can on that day. I am not going to lament on my good flights, or my bad flights, but to thank the people who allowed Marc and I to come to Eugene and have a blast. Marc and I flew the stunt venue this year. From Barbara and Annette , who worked tirelessly as the score tabulators and posters, to Mike Denliss who pull tested probably every contestant there, to our stunt event director Don, and the numerous contestants who chipped in to help. In my profile event the judges were Paul Walker and David Fitzgerald. What a thrill it was for me to have flown in front of them. And to be judged by them. And beginner and intermediate stunt. Wow, the judges they had. Two very lovely and wonderful ladies, who know the stunt world inside and out. Joan Cox, and Alice Cotton Royer.
Other event directors I saw working hard all weekend were Mike Potter for carrier. This was my partners first carrier try. Mike made Marc feel very at ease in his first carrier contest.
Mike Hazel in speed. Another well run event. If he was not timing someone, he was flying.
Dave Green for racing. Dave has not raced for a number of years, but when he did, he was the man to beat. Always a well run event when he is there.
Gene Pape for combat. Another hard working and flying gentleman. I watched from a distance and he had that event running well for 3 days.
Pat Jonhston and Mark Scarbarough not only flew stunt, they judged scale. They did the static judging and the flying judging. All while trying to fly in their own events.
So, in conclusion, as you can see, it takes a large group of dedicated people to allow me to come and play with my airplanes. Thank you all for so many wonderful years at the N.W. Regionals.
Tom
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/28/ejy9ager.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/28/myhasyru.jpg)
Check out the number of passes in the 2nd round:
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/28/ne5y3yzu.jpg)
Attendance was up this year at 80+:
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/28/ja2ubydy.jpg)
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
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Thanks guys for all the pictures.
Howard's summary is very interesting.
1) OTS: "The reason for moving Old Time to Friday, according to a tabulator, was that it is so labor intensive, all scores having to be multiplied by weighting factors."
OTS never had K factor scoring until some people in the modern era decided that having different scores for maneuvers was too hard on the judges.
In reality judges get hold of that very fast. Tabulating is simple... just add up the scores! That is why the Northeast, where OTS started and here in Dallas we have kept this as it was, not as some thought it should have been.
2) Appearance: "The lineup for appearance judging was spectacular as usual. Even without Larry Fernandez and PT Granderson, there was a plethora of pretty planes. You Eastern stunt people who don't use appearance points because you think craftsmanship should be left to the Chinese should come out here to see how cool stunt planes can look.
Can't agree more! Sadly they are losing pride in what they do.
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OTS: "The reason for moving Old Time to Friday, according to a tabulator, was that it is so labor intensive, all scores having to be multiplied by weighting factors."
OTS never had K factor scoring until some people in the modern era decided that having different scores for maneuvers was too hard on the judges.
In reality judges get hold of that very fast. Tabulating is simple... just add up the scores! That is why the Northeast, where OTS started and here in Dallas we have kept this as it was, not as some thought it should have been.
My point was that rather than giving either the judge or the tabulator a difficult task, one should foist the difficulty off to a machine.
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Does anybody here know what airplanes and engines Jess Walls and Jerry Olson flew in Beginner Stunt? I'll get in trouble if I file an incomplete report.
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You Eastern stunt people who don't use appearance points because you think craftsmanship should be left to the Chinese should come out here to see how cool stunt planes can look.
Pretty bold statement from a contest where a Ukrainian built model almost won the concours last year...
I will teach you and Brett about geographical stereotypes.
Derek
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Pretty bold statement from a contest where a Ukrainian built model won the concours last year...
I will teach you and Brett about geographical stereotypes.
I suppose you will invoke your multiple Nats concours wins (and my money's on you in 2013) as evidence. That's not fair.
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I suppose you will invoke your multiple Nats concours wins (and my money's on you in 2013) as evidence. That's not fair.
Yes I will (and thanks by the way). And how is that not fair?
Derek
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I suppose you will invoke your multiple Nats concours wins (and my money's on you in 2013) as evidence. That's not fair.
Nothing personal Howard, I just don't like being lumped in with any group. I march to the beat of my own drum. ;)
Derek
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My money is on a Ukrainian built model winning the Concours. There is strength in numbers.
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Pretty bold statement from a contest where a Ukrainian built model almost won the concours last year.
We have our own Ukrainians out here. No need to outsource.
I march to the beat of my own drum.
I always lagged behind the drummer myself.
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We have our own Ukrainians out here. No need to outsource.
Very clever Howard but did he bring Aleksandr Osetrov's molds with him to the states?
Derek
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Howard, my Beginner flight abriviated as it was was with a Super Clown powered with an OS .25 LA.
Jerry
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Derek, you're an East Coast guy? Well, eastern from here but I thought you were considered something else.
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I am certainly not saying that all East Coasters do not build beautiful airplanes. There is however a trend for East Coast contests to eliminate appearance. Beautiful airplanes have always been a major attraction to stunt. The skill classes allow you to develop both flying and building skills. I hate to it become like RC "buy a toy".
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I am certainly not saying that all East Coasters do not build beautiful airplanes. There is however a trend for East Coast contests to eliminate appearance. Beautiful airplanes have always been a major attraction to stunt. The skill classes allow you to develop both flying and building skills. I hate to it become like RC "buy a toy".
And while trend to eliminate appearance continues on the east coast, the building on the west coast just gets better and better.
Just when you think you've made it to the top, Uncle Jimby, PTG, Ray Firkins and Igor raise the bar a bit higher
Its getting hard to keep up with those guys.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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We have our own Ukrainians out here. No need to outsource.
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"Our Ukrainians are better then their Ukrainians."
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Gary Gingerich went off and practised with Igor and Kestutis on the grass and racing circle, with his Yatsenko YAK 55. He got a lot of help from them. After Classic was over (I was pull test officer), I went over there and launched Gary for a few flights, and talked with both Igor and Kestutis awhile...very nice guys, pretty good English, too. Kestutis is Lithuanian, however. I copied the spelling on the score sheet...hope it's right. Anyway, that makes it only one Ukrainian (and one Lithuanian). FYI. 8) Steve
PS: My official 1st round flight was my one and only for the 5 days. I heard the "ooohhs", but not a single "aaahhh". I don't think anybody had lower "bottoms" on their outside squares, but then I didn't exactly plan it that way...the wind helped...a lot. I thought I got a pretty decent takeoff and landing, maybe even inverted laps, considering.
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And while trend to eliminate appearance continues on the east coast, the building on the west coast just gets better and better.
Just when you think you've made it to the top, Uncle Jimby, PTG, Ray Firkins and Igor raise the bar a bit higher
Its getting hard to keep up with those guys.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
No need to worry about me. I'm up to my butt in sprained body parts and RC Park Flyer and Heli parts.
Designed a Park Flyer C/L electric. Little modern E-stunt planes can be cooler than I ever imagined they could be.
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I thought West Coast stunt sheek often meant gluing together East Coast made Components, then finishing with zooty paint. Maybe I misunderstood. Something. Brodak awards appearance points in PAMPA events. I know a number of folks here, who spend the winter months constructing either on their own or at the shop of some well known person in stunt. Many retreads like myself have trouble mastering the finer points (even cruder points) of making a high appearance plane. But we can admire. And do admire. Lots of us where I fly fall into the category of re-tread and duffer. I think the elimination of appearance points at local events (usually substituting a concourse appreciation and trophy) was more an acknowledgement of the reality of what turned up. Not the other way around. Peace. (But no emoticon.)
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I thought West Coast stunt sheek often meant gluing together East Coast made Components, then finishing with zooty paint.
"We expect playwrights to learn the rules and then shatter them, and to engage with their cultural responsibilities as disclosers of truth."
Jeanie O'Hare, Chair, Yale School of Drama
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And while trend to eliminate appearance continues on the east coast, the building on the west coast just gets better and better.
You're terribly wrong. This is what we need to stamp out so SAVE A DYING HOBBY! Let's all panic and get rid of BOM RIGHT NOW!!!!
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I've never used parts east of the Mississippi.
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No need to worry about me. I'm up to my butt in sprained body parts and RC Park Flyer and Heli parts.
Designed a Park Flyer C/L electric. Little modern E-stunt planes can be cooler than I ever imagined they could be.
Actually Phil, I never really worried about you, I more-so admired you. You, Uncle Jimby and the late great Jim Tichy have elevated my modeling skills more than anyone. Every new plane you guys would bring out, only made me see the flaws in my work, and made me step up my game.
You have all been so helpful and informative with other modelers that it has helped a lot of fliers to elevate their building and finishing skills.
Many thanks Phil.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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And while trend to eliminate appearance continues on the east coast, the building on the west coast just gets better and better.
Just when you think you've made it to the top, Uncle Jimby, PTG, Ray Firkins and Igor raise the bar a bit higher
Its getting hard to keep up with those guys.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
WE have a few on the east coast that know how to build a stuntship too... and there are also several "between" the east and west coast that do a pretty good job of building !
Randy
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When I'd seen US team at W/C 1998 in Kiev. I was Pit boss, and Sound Engineer. I have thought: "may be some day I will have a chance to fly with these guys". Back then I only had an opportunity to take a picture with them and their nice models. I only knew few words in English: Hello and Friendship. Now I have American friends, became an American myself. I still have Ukrainian roots and I still have Ukrainian friends. Well know both Yatsenko brothers ; Yuriy and Andrey; Sergiy Belko; Alexandr Osetrov; Sergiy Solomyannikov; and many more. Few people from Russia, Vladimir Strahov. Since I'm familiar with Ukrainian school of BOM and now with US school; I'm taking the best out of both techniques, European and American. I always try to share my knowledge with my Stunt community. It's not fair to hear some of the negative comments towards expansion of Ukrainian model business here in US. I know that my Ukrainian friends does not steal any ideas from anybody else. They are selling their experience in order to get some money to feed their family and travel to international contests. I am not their business distributor here. I just use their model parts because I trust their quality.In many cases I have my own opinion. I'm for BOM rules because I see a good philosophy behind of it.I'm may not like all of it, but : " can't get in the Church with my own Charter", have to use as it is now. Collecting proposals seems to be not priority of our Trusties. Igor P.
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WE have a few on the east coast that know how to build a stuntship too...
The people who put on contests there must think you are elitists or weirdos or meanies set to lower the self esteem of people who pay good money for their models. They refrain from encouraging such aberrant behavior by withholding appearance points from you.
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The people who put on contests there must think you are elitists or weirdos or meanies set to lower the self esteem of people who pay good money for their models. They refrain from encouraging such aberrant behavior by withholding appearance points from you.
You west coast boys must take your local contests A LOT more seriously than us east coast guys. For us, it is more about fun and fellowship, the flying comes second to that. You can, however, bet your ass that when I get to the Nats, it is GAME ON!!!
Derek
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When I'd seen US team at W/C 1998 in Kiev. I was Pit boss, and Sound Engineer. I have thought: "may be some day I will have a chance to fly with these guys". Back then I only had an opportunity to take a picture with them and their nice models. I only knew few words in English: Hello and Friendship. Now I have American friends, became an American myself. I still have Ukrainian roots and I still have Ukrainian friends. Well know both Yatsenko brothers ; Yuriy and Andrey; Sergiy Belko; Alexandr Osetrov; Sergiy Solomyannikov; and many more. Few people from Russia, Vladimir Strahov. Since I'm familiar with Ukrainian school of BOM and now with US school; I'm taking the best out of both techniques, European and American. I always try to share my knowledge with my Stunt community. It's not fair to hear some of the negative comments towards expansion of Ukrainian model business here in US. I know that my Ukrainian friends does not steal any ideas from anybody else. They are selling their experience in order to get some money to feed their family and travel to international contests. I am not their business distributor here. I just use their model parts because I trust their quality.In many cases I have my own opinion. I'm for BOM rules because I see a good philosophy behind of it.I'm may not like all of it, but : " can't get in the Church with my own Charter", have to use as it is now. Collecting proposals seems to be not priority of our Trusties. Igor P.
If you were referring to me, I mean you no disrespect. Nor do I have a problem with Ukrainian models, here in the US or anywhere else. I have one in my shop. I have used it in local contest and won Expert. I did not, however, take appearance points for it. None were offered (as Howard has pointed out) but I would not have taken them anyways. My war is not with you it is with a couple other friends of mine who want to preach to us about BOM at our contest while allowing something, I see as non BOM, to receive appearance points at their contests.
Derek
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The people who put on contests there must think you are elitists or weirdos or meanies set to lower the self esteem of people who pay good money for their models. They refrain from encouraging such aberrant behavior by withholding appearance points from you.
Modified because it was too harsh, even for Howard.
Yes Howard, I would prefer to have AP at our contests, even if it was just for Advanced and Expert. But even back when we did have AP, some people still chose or were forced by a crash to use a borrowed airplane. They always gave up their AP to do so. But in reality it makes no difference at the local level. Everyone tries to win but like I said it is more about hanging out with friends and doing what we love.
It is funny because since we are talking about it I went back through a couple years of Huntersville (the biggest non BOM contest in my area) pictures to see how many ARFs I saw. To be honest I couldn't find many. You know want I did find? Pictures of planes built by some incredible builders and finishers. Such as, Tommy Luper, Gene Martine, Randy Smith, Charlie Reeves, Stan Powell, Dan Banjock, John Simpson, Kent Tysor, myself, just to name a few. There are more but I cannot think of them off the top of my head. If I go back a few more years I start to get pictures of Kurt Contrata, Dave Hemstrought, Ronnie Farmer. You get my point? Just because our local contest do not have AP any more it does not mean the number of quality planes being built on the east coast has gone down.
Derek
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I thought West Coast stunt sheek often meant gluing together East Coast made Components, then finishing with zooty paint. Maybe I misunderstood. Something.
Names? <crickets chirping>
Brett
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You west coast boys must take your local contests A LOT more seriously than us east coast guys.
Derek
If you call a bunch of grown men "Hurling" junk model airplane motors across a field serious, well I guess you have a point there Derek.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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Definitely. The West Coast does acid-head light-show auto paint better. On average. (Emoticons fail me. But I am laughing.) (Play a Grateful Dead jam now.)
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I have seen frustration on your face, on NWR and Golden state 2012 , not on yours only. You all most did not want to talk to me in order to express your ignorance. I all most start to think : " should I drive 900 miles away from LA each way to have that feeling before official flight ? ". But I'm strong. I have spoked with president of PAMPA with Dave, Paul, Jim, Canadians, I have seen Fenscher's couple.When I drew back at night, with my partner Kestas; contest preview was rotating in my mind. I still thinking it was valuable to me.
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Can't you guys on the West Coast guys invent something that furthers the science of control line stunt besides paint schemes. PA Engines. The Father of Electric Stunt (before he needed to shave every day). Cast carbon fiber and balsa/fiber composite wings and fuselages. Lost Foam Wings. Last time I checked... The Science of Control Line Stunt. (I am laughing again.) Where you guys been the last 15 years. (Or 20)
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Well here we go again, the east vs the west. Glad I am in the middle and do build most of my planes. Just wish I could fly them better.
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A nice contest report that has now degenerated to a BOM fight.
How sad!
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A nice contest report that has now degenerated to a BOM fight.
How sad!
I am sorry Paul, its just that twice in recent history "east coast" pilots have been called out for no apparent reason other than to make the ones doing the calling feel somehow superior or maybe to get some past aggression off their chest. Sorry but I feel obligated to reply because I am from the east and the things said are usually assumptions about how things are run over here rather than facts. The only fact they have is that most contests on the east do not have AP anymore. Some other facts are that most of the people I know do built their own planes and they take a lot of pride in their work. So, to be labeled as anti BOM is offensive to us.
At first it was some mild jabs between Howard and I. It kind of snowballed from there...
Derek
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Hey, Derek, you build very nice planes as far as I can tell. So, excuse yourself from any east coast comments. ;D
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Beginner and Intermediate were judged by people both of whom are women. ... Profile judges were both world stunt champions.
And man, were they strict. Normally I walk away from an Intermediate (or even Sportsman Profile) match feeling like I was judged on a different scale than if I'd been flying Advanced or Expert. This weekend was different. I got the feeling that David and Paul were judging Profile on the same scale, and with the same amount of attention, that they would have judged Open at the Nats. The feeling I got from Alice and the Dragon Lady was similar -- they were paying attention, and they weren't giving us any slack at all for being bottom-feeders. I appreciate that no end -- since I've started doing well in Intermediate I've been looking at the Advanced and Expert score boards and asking myself where I would have ended up, then thinking "no, that's too high". This time I felt like things were much more realistic.
Between the number of competitors and the weather I'm sure that Sunday was grueling for all the judges; I know that I was happier to be out flying in heavy rain than I would have been huddled over a clipboard trying to write on soaked paper.
I'm glad we have folks in the community that are willing to step up and do the job.
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Hey, Derek, you build very nice planes as far as I can tell. So, excuse yourself from any east coast comments. ;D
10-4 Randy. :)
Derek
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This is an interesting line of conversation that could get out of hand very fast and looks to be headed that way.
I saw several words in the thread that could be taken to heart right off the bat, Craftsmanship and Pride. These two words were used in very broad and sweeping assumptions that start this very kind of conversation that leads to nothing good and more bickering, insults, pointless diatribes, and on and on and on…. These things are very sensitive topics, correct?
East Coast / West Coast jabs are all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out. And somewhere along the way there is always an eye poking.
It is very clear to all of us aero modelers, and anyone who works with their hands on anything, there is a sense of pride in one’s craftsmanship no matter what the level. Case and point in the “Sam’s Streak” thread. The look on his face after the build is complete and model is ready for flight says it all. If he enters that model in a contest in the beginner class where there are no appearance points awarded and no BOM rule for entry does he all of a sudden have no pride in his craftsmanship? That makes no sense.
The contest and how it is run has no bearing on someone’s pride that they take in building a model airplane. At least it doesn’t for me and for many others I know. When I set out to build a model I plan to do it to the best of my abilities. Sure, from time to time we slap together a trainer or two but that isn’t what you take to a contest to compete with. I would think that this would be the case for anyone anywhere in the world that decides to build their own model to compete with. It has to be the best they can offer or they can’t be at their best on the field. If someone is going to give the model 14 or 15 points means nothing. That has no bearing one’s pride or craftsmanship they have in their model. Do you think Howard Rush or Derek Barry are going to show up at a contest with a plane that is less than stunning when it comes to the fit and finish and execution of the task attempted? HELL NO!
Statements that an entire group of modelers based on geographical location and the type of contest that is run in their area have no pride and don’t care about craftsmanship are going to be taken negatively no matter the intent. This should be a known fact by now concerning any borderline comments when it comes to East Coast vs West Coast…
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Doug - Your not too bad at hitting tiny nails with big hammers yourself... right on. Once again, we fall victim to the pitfalls of electronic communication, and perhaps a poke that should have been left un-poked. Unfortunately, letting a silly statement pass is as bad as accepting it as truth, and I can see where some would, or even should, want to make a correction.
EricV
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Names? <crickets chirping>
I think Dennis could have been referring to the Bob Hunt wing in my last IC-powered Impact. It is not alone west of the Rockies.
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Statements that an entire group of modelers based on geographical location and the type of contest that is run in their area have no pride and don’t care about craftsmanship are going to be taken negatively no matter the intent.
The opposite may be true. A person who takes an immaculate model to a contest where it won't get appearance points does so for the purist of motives. Someone like me, however, will touch up and wax his plane for a couple of points, but for a contest without appearance points, he won't. I haven't been to many eastern stunt contests recently, but I've been to the Nats, where there is a roomful of beautiful airplanes, and I've been to the world championships, where there are fewer. Look at the airplanes that show up at the US F2B team trials. Same guys, same geographical distribution as the Nats. Team trials airplanes aren't as pretty, because the contestants don't have the incentive to make them so. Appearance points make for contests that are more impressive to observers. I think they help to sell the event to prospective participants and to the public. I don't see why all CDs just don't go by the AMA rules.
I wonder if some CDs have looked at the rulebook in the last decade. I see contest announcements that say, "No BOM", sometimes without mention of appearance points. They might as well say "no outside triangles".
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The opposite may be true. A person who takes an immaculate model to a contest where it won't get appearance points does so for the purist of motives. Someone like me, however, will touch up and wax his plane for a couple of points, but for a contest without appearance points, he won't. I haven't been to many eastern stunt contests recently, but I've been to the Nats, where there is a roomful of beautiful airplanes, and I've been to the world championships, where there are fewer. Look at the airplanes that show up at the US F2B team trials. Same guys, same geographical distribution as the Nats. Team trials airplanes aren't as pretty, because the contestants don't have the incentive to make them so. Appearance points make for contests that are more impressive to observers. I think they help to sell the event to prospective participants and to the public. I don't see why all CDs just don't go by the AMA rules.
I wonder if some CDs have looked at the rulebook in the last decade. I see contest announcements that say, "No BOM", sometimes without mention of appearance points. They might as well say "no outside triangles".
Howard you may have a point, and that "may" be true for a very few, however I have seen it not to be be for most of the modelers I have seen bring em !!
I also agree that CD should use and go by the rules...however many contest are club sponsored, and club run, and some insist on dumping the BOM and AP rule, that is their right if they want to do it that way, Sadly I disagree , like you, I would rather see the APs given.
Most of the ones here however DO NOT say NO BOM, they say no appearance points, most ALL local contest use PAMPA skill classes that does NOT have any mandatory BOM rule, and never has. Note their is a difference between APs and BOM.... some blurr that line.
By the way...there is NO mandatory BOM rule at most all of the West Coast contest I have seen either, They too use PAMPA classes.
Regards
Randy
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Howard mention the Bob Hunt wing to me. I was having fun.
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I'd probably use some of that east coast stuff, but I can't afford it. So I just do it myself. LL~
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And a very nice report on Flying Lines. Nice pictures, John.
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Most of the ones here however DO NOT say NO BOM, they say no appearance points, most ALL local contest use PAMPA skill classes that does NOT have any mandatory BOM rule, and never has. Note their is a difference between APs and BOM.... some blurr that line.
By the way...there is NO mandatory BOM rule at most all of the West Coast contest I have seen either, They too use PAMPA classes.
Balderdash. Every Stunt News issue, I wade through these "No BOM, no appearance points" contest announcements to make the contest calendar. Last night I sent a guy who advertised "No BOM" a note to ask him if he understood that the only events requiring (and only loosely) the contestants to have built their own models are the Nats age classes. The same club put on a contest a few years ago that had both an ARF event and a "no-BOM, no appearance points" PA event. To wit, identical events, except that in one, the contestant was forbidden to have built his own airplane. It's nice that these guys put on contests for us; maybe we should help out more.
Folks unfamiliar with the rules also refer to the PA events as "PAMPA". They haven't been for several years. Skill classes are part of the AMA rules.
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Balderdash. Every Stunt News issue, I wade through these "No BOM, no appearance points" contest announcements to make the contest calendar. Last night I sent a guy who advertised "No BOM" a note to ask him if he understood that the only events requiring (and only loosely) the contestants to have built their own models are the Nats age classes. The same club put on a contest a few years ago that had both an ARF event and a "no-BOM, no appearance points" PA event. To wit, identical events, except that in one, the contestant was forbidden to have built his own airplane. It's nice that these guys put on contests for us; maybe we should help out more.
Folks unfamiliar with the rules also refer to the PA events as "PAMPA". They haven't been for several years. Skill classes are part of the AMA rules.
Uhh NO its not balderdash...they could care less if you built or did not build your plane, the only thing they are telling you is that you will get NO APs, you can build your plane or NOT but in those contest they just want to ***NOT*** award any appence points,,,that is the goal.
NOW they maybe confusing this by saying no BOM, but since NONE of the contest require the BOM anyway (even the West Coast contest), what they are saying is simply this ... NO APs !
And it matters NOT that the PAMPA skill classes are now all in the rule book, They are still, and will always be the PAMPA skill classes...just because AMA has adopted them doesn't moot the fact that they were created by PAMPA to promote this event. and they are PAMPA Skill classes , that also does not mean they can't also be AMA skill classes ;D ;D
Randy
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This really started as a N W Regionals report. If you want to talk BOM, go somewhere else.....A pace that I can avoid!
Thanks for hijacking the thread Howard. :(
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This really started as a N W Regionals report. If you want to talk BOM, go somewhere else.....A pace that I can avoid!
Paul, public thanks to you and Dave for stepping up and judging profile , both classes,,
sorry my entertainment value plummeted,,, at least Pat and I found the problem,,
despite sundays uh,, weather (?) ,, I had a great time,,
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Stop by for your trophy and prize on the way back to the ranch. See? Back on topic.
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Tanks a lot. :)
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I thought it was a battery holder.
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I thought it was a battery holder.
Were you a part of that "effort"?
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As I recall,it was a group decision. A rather large group.
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When Uncle Jimby went up to get David's trophy, he went to the prize table and selected a nice holding fixture for soldering, complete with a built in magnifying glass. There was loud applause from the electron crowd.
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Guys - a clarification. Kestas and Igor definitely *built their own airplanes* from molds, etc. They are magnificent but definitely built by themselves using very advanced techniques. Howard was joking above, these are no "parts is parts" airplane bought offshore, they are made with loving care in Southern California. Both are sportsmen of the highest order and would not have taken part in appearance judging if they did not build the airplanes.
If you want to argue they are professionally constructed, that might be a good point, I think both are employed by a major UAV manufacturer where this sort of construction is common. Although I bet the finish isn't this good!
An offline comment noted that the commenter wasn't aware of anyone in the US being able to build airplanes this way. I am sure there are any number of people who could do this (Howard at the head of the list, assuming you didn't care how long it took...), maybe not as nicely, but perfectly functional. Jose Modesto does something along the same lines, more like the Yatsenkos than a pure composite like I think these are, but also very nicely made. So people can do it.
Until otherwise proven I assume ALL the airplanes that show up at a contest are legit, and meet all the requirements of the event, or the appropriate penalty is accepted. Cheating, gray areas, etc, are *virtually unheard of* in my rather extensive experience over the last 35ish years I have been doing this.
I dug through my pictures and as near as I can tell, not only were there no "parts is parts" airplanes, there were also only a few ARFs and, in appearance judging pictures I see only one *kit*, and the rest were scratch-built. Which is about the usual mix that I see. Appearance judge Ted Fancher also noted that the quality of construction and finish was pretty exceptional, there were no dogs or even mediocre airplanes, they were uniformly well-built. There were some ARFs around, and that's fine, but no one attempted to take credit for them - which is also universally the case.
Note also that Igor was also one of the first people to explore the "ultra-low-rev" approach to 4-strokes, and that worked pretty darn well, too. I think Kestas was using a Stalker (maybe a 76?) and Igor some variety of electric.
Brett
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To add to what Brett said.
At the Golden State Meet last year, I had the pleasure of seeing Igor's plane up close and personal. He brought out a photo album with over a hundred pictures of every step of the assembly. Ladies and Gentlemen, this plane is not an ARF or RTF. And the meticulous work and detail is unbelievable.
Brett has posted more than once, that my PT-19 is the nicest model airplane he has ever seen. This was most humbling to say the least.
But I have to say with out question, that Igor's plane was out of my league.
Igor was kind enough to spend a substantial amount of time, discussing his building, prep and painting techniques, the materials and equipment he uses.
I was blown away by little things, like his tail wheel assembly. A very scale like forked gear, that was cut from an aluminum block and filed to shape. This was also documented with photos. As soon as I got home, I cut the tail wheel off of my PT-19, and made up a forked tail wheel assembly like his.
Thanks Igor, it came out awesome. I will post pictures on another thread.
If any of you happen to be lucky enough to meet with Igor, take a very close look at his plane. The more you look at it, the more you will appreciate the flawless workmanship. Ask him all the questions you want, as I am certain he would love to tell you of his techniques.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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Brett is absolutely correct, Igor did build and paint his plane and it is museum
quality. All the rest that Brett said is also correct. That is what makes this hobby
what it is. Those of you that bemoan the fact that Igor's plane is too perfect just
means that he spent more time building it than you do your models. All the rest of
us just have to work a little harder to keep up! RJ
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Back to topic..
I'm trying to wade through all this BOM nonesess to get to the heart of the NW Regionals story, I know who won, I know who came second..
Most important of all - I know how many of the Top 10 used Vortex Generators... not to mention the Top 2...
I thought this might have perhaps been a topic of conversation more so that " He said she said BOM garbage "
~^
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Back to topic..
I'm trying to wade through all this BOM nonesess to get to the heart of the NW Regionals story, I know who won, I know who came second..
Most important of all - I know how many of the Top 10 used Vortex Generators... not to mention the Top 2...
I thought this might have perhaps been a topic of conversation more so that " He said she said BOM garbage "
~^
And the winner had more vortex generators on his plane than everybody else. I asked Dave and he said he noticed a difference with each one he put on. Ended up with five total on each wing panel. He had Four on the bottom.
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David also had them on the stabilizer. He also sprayed some oil which may have helped?
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Most important of all - I know how many of the Top 10 used Vortex Generators... not to mention the Top 2...
Looks like places 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8. They seem to work for most everybody right where you said to put them. There's more experimenting to do with location, spacing, and orientation, but sticking them on with rubber cement makes it easy to try different configurations without messing up the airplane.
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I hate to bring this back up but a few comments have been made that I need to address. I have seen a lot of Ukrainian ARFs and RTFs, it was my fault for assuming that every one in existence was made by one of the well know distributers. Brett is right that I had no idea that someone was actually making them here in the US. I know that other people make similar composite planes but none to the caliber of what I had seen from the Ukraine. After a talk with Larry, Howard, and Brett I was realized that I made a mistake in my assumptions. (I heard I was not the only one making these assumptions)
Igor if you read this, I apologize for assuming that you did not build your own plane and I hope that you will one day come to the Nats so I can see it in person. Larry told me that you are among the best builder/finishers he has ever met and coming from him this says a lot!
Derek
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Good stuff Derek, I always say anyone can make accusations but it takes a man to admit a mistake. ( Now we just need you to admit the electric is superior! hahhah )
Howard : I'm happy for others to do the experimenting now, I personally feel ( after talking to David ) that the technology has room to grow for assisting further in getting a plane to perform better. My own views for my own program are that no extra VG's beyond just the single pair on each of the wings will help me perform any better - Im happy to admit more practice is where I need to be to get into the Top 10 at a Nats.
I'm so glad that after 15 + years of using them and having COUNTLESS name fliers telling me they are useless and wont work ( or were tried back in the 60's ) that I ignored the masses and trusted my own instinct. Now here we are with multiple Nats winners and world champions using them to improve decorated stunt ships makes me realise all experiments and the effort was worth it.
My advice to anyone is - If you think your doing something right, don't let Johnny No-body tell you it wont work. However thats not to say that when a name flier gives you advice you ignore it.
Its a personal sport with only 1 outcome and only 1 winner. This time around it was Dave Fitzgerald and his VG / PA75 Powered Thunder Gazer II.
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I hate to bring this back up but a few comments have been made that I need to address. I have seen a lot of Ukrainian ARFs and RTFs, it was my fault for assuming that every one in existence was made by one of the well know distributers. Brett is right that I had no idea that someone was actually making them here in the US. I know that other people make similar composite planes but none to the caliber of what I had seen from the Ukraine. After a talk with Larry, Howard, and Brett I was realized that I made a mistake in my assumptions. (I heard I was not the only one making these assumptions)
Igor if you read this, I apologize for assuming that you did not build your own plane and I hope that you will one day come to the Nats so I can see it in person. Larry told me that you are among the best builder/finishers he has ever met and coming from him this says a lot!
Derek
Thank you Derek ! You do not have to apologize! But thank you again ! Tell you honestly I have used all ready to that, when stunt people see my Extra 300S ; made using Alexandr Osetrov's kit, many of them instantly think that is unposible to build in garage style shop, and conclusion is: It is ARF. "The guy obviously reach if he can buy it " in many cases the envy may be involve. So it does not help our US stunt community any how. I think this is typical stereotype what they have. Bob Hunt has made many explanation in his articles about Ukrainian composite models and Ukrainian builders. Mainly about Yatsenko's models. This is very narrow stunt market for those models. And they have started to sale their kit in different packages. Than was time , when they have reconsidered how kit is supposed to be made, in order to make process of assembly more simple.People, who tried to build models in their shops, using Ukrainian kits (Premolded shells etc.) made those wrong and damaged reputation of brand. Yes, it is require skills and more knowledge compare to traditional build of models technic out of balsa wood kit. Some times many consultations and build of model class. But it is possible. Lets say : if you would come over to Car show and watched there beautiful car, the newest Look and technology; and than yo come over in to another room and see there : same car in scratch units , as kit. It cost : 60% less from Ready do drive car. What would you think ? You would collect all the aspects of your possibilities and critically put it on the weight scale, before you buy it. If you would like to talk more about it lets not irritate Our stunt community wit BOM rules etc. on the forum. We can talk on the phone or E mail. Please look my name in PAMPA book. Thank you again ! Igor.
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Good stuff Derek, I always say anyone can make accusations but it takes a man to admit a mistake. ( Now we just need you to admit the electric is superior! hahhah )
Howard : I'm happy for others to do the experimenting now, I personally feel ( after talking to David ) that the technology has room to grow for assisting further in getting a plane to perform better. My own views for my own program are that no extra VG's beyond just the single pair on each of the wings will help me perform any better - Im happy to admit more practice is where I need to be to get into the Top 10 at a Nats.
I'm so glad that after 15 + years of using them and having COUNTLESS name fliers telling me they are useless and wont work ( or were tried back in the 60's ) that I ignored the masses and trusted my own instinct. Now here we are with multiple Nats winners and world champions using them to improve decorated stunt ships makes me realise all experiments and the effort was worth it.
My advice to anyone is - If you think your doing something right, don't let Johnny No-body tell you it wont work. However thats not to say that when a name flier gives you advice you ignore it.
Its a personal sport with only 1 outcome and only 1 winner. This time around it was Dave Fitzgerald and his VG / PA75 Powered Thunder Gazer II.
Dave called me a few months back and asked if I had tried them yet, I told him no. He is convinced that they do in fact do something and he seemed to really like it. My new plane flies better than anything I have built in many years so I don't think I will be gluing any little VGs to mine. Dave said that if I want to beat Paul then I better use them. I guess we will see if VGs trump towering awesomeness in a month and a half...
Derek
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( Now we just need you to admit the electric is superior! hahhah )
Well..............Not yet. I did fly Bob's Genesis Extreme and it flies very well. He said the Crossfire is much better and after we are done in Muncie, assuming the weather is good, I will get a ride on that one too. So I can't say superior just yet but it is defiantly good.
I still love my PA 65!
Derek
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Dave called me a few months back and asked if I had tried them yet, I told him no. He is convinced that they do in fact do something and he seemed to really like it. My new plane flies better than anything I have built in many years so I don't think I will be gluing any little VGs to mine. Dave said that if I want to beat Paul then I better use them. I guess we will see if VGs trump towering awesomeness in a month and a half...
Derek
I tried them in the hot summer months after the 2011 nats. They do work! I did a write up on it somewhere on this board.
Flights of towering awesomeness will be in Muncie this year for sure. But who will own them??...............some bald guy Dallas has a pretty good idea...
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I tried them in the hot summer months after the 2011 nats. They do work! I did a write up on it somewhere on this board.
Flights of towering awesomeness will be in Muncie this year for sure. But who will own them??...............some bald guy Dallas has a pretty good idea...
::)
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I'm so glad that after 15 + years of using them and having COUNTLESS name fliers telling me they are useless and wont work ( or were tried back in the 60's ) that I ignored the masses and trusted my own instinct. Now here we are with multiple Nats winners and world champions using them to improve decorated stunt ships makes me realise all experiments and the effort was worth it.
My advice to anyone is - If you think your doing something right, don't let Johnny No-body tell you it wont work. However thats not to say that when a name flier gives you advice you ignore it.
PJ
I know exactly how you feel! There is a Winston Churchil quote that I love and it is perfect for situations like this "The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is"
Martin
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My new plane flies better than anything I have built in many years so I don't think I will be gluing any little VGs to mine.
At least let us see it while it's still pretty. Better yet, save it for a rainy day and fly the Matrix airplane.
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At least let us see it while it's still pretty. Better yet, save it for a rainy day and fly the Matrix airplane.
Doing a little touch up buffing on her right now just for you Howard.
Now the Matrix could certainly use some VGs. With VGs and a PA 75 it might be almost flyable.
Derek
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Derek - Stenciling all that Matrix code on all those little V/G's would be a royal pain even though I'm sure it would be fun to come up with some subliminal messages for PJ on them... <=
So, much to Howards dismay, I'll suggest leaving that one on display with the big prop next to it and take your best weapon to the shootout... oh, and bring the WC Dreadnought for your backup, Matrix doesn't need any temptations to come out of retirement. n1
See, I'm there for ya buddy, heh.
EricV
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Flights of towering awesomeness will be in Muncie this year for sure. But who will own them??...............some bald guy Dallas has a pretty good idea...
Well I don't know about the flights themselves but I certainly expect a royalty on the profligate use of my majestic and poetic phrase!
I came in a distant third at the Regionals and I am sure it was due to my wanton disregard for vortex generators.
Brett
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The winning flight of the day for Intermediate was the last one, put in by Doug Knoyle for 400 points; he was rewarded for sticking it out with a bit of slightly better air, which he did a great job of leveraging to a winning flight. The second-place flight was Paul Gibeault (I'll edit this later with the right spelling) from windy Edmundton at 399, put in just before Doug. Jim Harper was in the lead coming into the first round and I was second. I chickened out after the inside loops (so that's what they mean when they say wind up) but did six inverted laps just to put a lid on my resolution not to try my luck or lack of skill or whatever before doing a half-loop to level and flying out the rest of the tank level. Jim, if I recall correctly, bagged it after two laps inverted. I'm not going to say who else flew or not -- the scores will show.
There were no crashes in Intermediate.
The RED is mine. And it's really spelt Edmonton (not Edmundton), but I believe Paul still lives in Leduc, south a ways, as he works at the "new" airport for one of the airlines...maybe Air Canada. "Perry Fire" is one of my favorite contest...early August. Weather is often quite nice. But like our contests, ignore the month and bring Polarfleece, just in case. Nice town. y1 Steve
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Thanks for the spelling correction.
I'd love to get up there on my own time -- alas, all the traveling I do these days is on someone else's dime.
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snip ( Now we just need you to admit the electric is superior! hahhah )
snip
I, at least, am convinced that, although vortex generators have proven modestly capable of redirecting the eye stinging smoke, the electric version is superior to the candle under difficult reading conditions.
Thomas E.
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I, at least, am convinced that, although vortex generators have proven modestly capable of redirecting the eye stinging smoke, the electric version is superior to the candle under difficult reading conditions.
Thomas E.
Not for me! It's good old fashioned whale oil and plenty of it!
Brett
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Not for me! It's good old fashioned whale oil and plenty of it!
Brett
The EPA will come to your house break the door in and confiscate ALL your illegal whale oil...... best keep that to yourself ! LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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All I've ever said is try it - at least once. Its one of those things like trimming a model if you know what your doing you will see improvements !!
If you like the benieits it presents - continue to use them If you feel the model performs better without them, then do so.
I certainly think it will take a serious effort to stop Dave or Paul at the Nats this year...
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Dave who? Which Nats? Capt. Fitzgerald has taken a couple of years off to run the US stunt Nats. To do so at the peak of his competitiveness shows his dedication to our community. It is a shame, though, to see all those vortex generators idle.
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Ok that means only one thing, and only 1 winner.
First electric to win the Nats.....
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Dave who? Which Nats? Capt. Fitzgerald has taken a couple of years off to run the US stunt Nats. To do so at the peak of his competitiveness shows his dedication to our community. It is a shame, though, to see all those vortex generators idle.
Thanks for making this point Howard.
Dave has been one of my stunt hero's for years. I know how competitive he is and for him to take a back seat to competition to run the NATS says volumes of his dedication to our great and beloved event.
Hats off to you Dave and to all who give of themselves so that we can enjoy this great hobby.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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Ok that means only one thing, and only 1 winner.
First electric to win the Nats.....
Nope
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Nope
That's a NOPE on the nope. Now don't get Bob upset!
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That's a NOPE on the nope. Now don't get Bob upset!
I will counter your nope with another NOPE! The Cutlass is ready for battle!
Derek
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That's a NOPE on the nope. Now don't get Bob upset!
Riff Raff enters the betting round and will SEE the NOPE on the nope and RAISE another NOPE!
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The betting now stands 2 nopes to one nope. Will there be a call, or raise, or.......fold?
the anticipation is killing me, tensions are high, aaahhhhhh the humanity of it all!!!!
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The betting now stands 2 nopes to one nope. Will there be a call, or raise, or.......fold?
the anticipation is killing me, tensions are high, aaahhhhhh the humanity of it all!!!!
I will call.
Paul?...
Derek
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The betting now stands 2 nopes to one nope. Will there be a call, or raise, or.......fold?
the anticipation is killing me, tensions are high, aaahhhhhh the humanity of it all!!!!
uhhh Fold !!! lets hope NOT
Randy
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uhhh Fold !!! lets hope NOT
Randy
Yeah fold is not a good word for stunt.
Derek
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Yeah fold is not a good word for stunt.
Derek
Been there, done that, yuck!!
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We have pretty much destroyed the topic of this thread. I guess one of us needs to start the "Nats trash talk thread". It's about that time.
Derek
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Speaking of "fold", my year old Impact I took to Bulgaria had one of the wing attach male fittings in the wing come loose during practice non Friday. It was on the lower inboard joint. I surmised what the noise was on its last flight Friday in the square eight and quickly got to level flight.
Removed the fitting, ground it clean of the glue, ruffed up the inside of the tube in the wing, and glued it back together. It appeared to work as it held together in the bad air on Sunday.
BTW, call.......Royal Flush!
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Nothing has bees said about those "Not quite ready for Prime Time" fliers...the Advanced Class. A look at the first 3 places shows the different approaches competitors are taking on there way to the top. First Place went to Dave McCheyne from Canada. He was flying an immaculate Electic Saturn built by top Canadian flier Chris Cox. Second was a more traditional approach, a Randy Smith designed, SV-11 based "Olympian" built and flown by...that would be me! ;D Power is a Ro-Jett 61 RE. Third place was Arizona resident Gary Gingrech. He flew a Yatsenko built Yak 55. Like all the Yatsenko planes I have seen the corners were amazing and workmanship top notch. 8)
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Nothing has bees said about those "Not quite ready for Prime Time" fliers...the Advanced Class. A look at the first 3 places shows the different approaches competitors are taking on there way to the top. First Place went to Dave McCheyne from Canada. He was flying an immaculate Electic Saturn built by top Canadian flier Chris Cox. Second was a more traditional approach, a Randy Smith designed, SV-11 based "Olympian" built and flown by...that would be me! ;D Power is a Ro-Jett 61 RE. Third place was Arizona resident Gary Gingrech. He flew a Yatsenko built Yak 55. Like all the Yatsenko planes I have seen the corners were amazing and workmanship top notch. 8)
and fourth was a Classic airframe, the Avenger,
built by me, powered by a Magnum 53,,,
Hey that rhymed,, maybe I can be on Howards team now,, LOL
there was some pretty solid flying in Advanced,, and a LARGE entry,,
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Sorry to leave you off the list Mark - no slight intended. Your plane really does round out the list variety wise. For those who are familiar with this plane, it looks even better in person than it does in the pictures. 8)
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No worries,, I just thought it filled out your comment,, top four, pretty much all four different aproaches,, now if I had a few more flights on the 109 ,, mayhaps things would have been different,,
and thanks for the comments on the Avenger,,
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We have pretty much destroyed the topic of this thread.
We've talked NWR,
BOM, and VG.
But if you're talkin' the Nats,
It's all JCT.
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We've talked NWR,
BOM, and VG.
But if you're talkin' the Nats,
It's all JCT.
Yes..........Juggernaut Carnivore Team
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there was some pretty solid flying in Advanced,, and a LARGE entry,,
Mark, of course there was a LARGE entry -- you were flying.
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Mark, of course there was a LARGE entry -- you were flying.
LMAO. Nice!
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2
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Mark, of course there was a LARGE entry -- you were flying.
Tim,,,,,,,,,,,,, D>K
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Hope this doesn't get personal like I have seen some in the past. Maybe time to shut it down.
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Hope this doesn't get personal like I have seen some in the past. Maybe time to shut it down.
Doc, if your refering to Tim and I,,we nudge each other all the time,, it is personal,, we love to flip each other chit all the time,, right Tim,,,
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Doc,
Trust me on this, Tim can take care of himself. Well.
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Doc,
Trust me on this, Tim can take care of himself. Well.
Tim needs coaching and some tachometer/NV training, but otherwise, that's true enough. LL~ Steve
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Doc, if your refering to Tim and I,,we nudge each other all the time,, it is personal,, we love to flip each other chit all the time,, right Tim,,,
Doc, it's true. Well, at least Mark is always flipping me "stuff" and I just reply in all innocence.
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innocence,, really,, naivety maybe,, but innocence,, sheesh,, next you will tell us that your worlds most labor intensive rebuild of a flight ready flight streak was all because it had issues or something,,,,, VD~
Steve,, the tach training is for sure,, have you worked him on this,, I fear he thinks all my comments are part of my "harassment" or something,,
Tim, have fun buddy,, I probably wont make Puyallup,, but plan on August,, so you are safe,, well aside from on here,,,
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We've talked NWR,
BOM, and VG.
But if you're talkin' the Nats,
It's all JCT.
Bring your cute little poems to the "Nats Trash Talk" thread...
Derek