Modelers vs pilots

[Shorts,David]

I drank caffeine tonight, so here goes. I don't want to say anything negative about most people, but I will say some positive things. And I don't want this to discourage anybody, because there's nothing wrong with arfs and rtfs at all and many of us have been grateful for them at times. But...
There used to be a time I bought arfs and planes built by others. I loved flying and had no interest in how planes were built. In fact, I thought building from a kit, let alone scratch building, was insane.

For me, the joy of flying a plane is really about fifty percent of the joy of modeling. Well, that's pretty good, but if I didn't build it, it drops to about twenty five percent. After all, I'm just reeping the fruit of someone else's work. It's like karaoke. Sure, it's fun and all, but performing with a band that practiced, is live, and maybe even wrote the tune just destroys singing karaoke for me.
The 100 percent joy comes from building, maybe even designing, then flying and working on something I built. Now I've unlocked even more joy.
I have a few friends into jeeps. They will tell you, real jeeps aren't bought, they're built. It unlocks more joy

Here's another thought. If I build and fly a strega, if I win. Windy can share in part of my success. But if I actually fly Windy's plane, who really earned the trophy, the guy who designed and spent a hundred hours, or the guy who wiggles his wrist for six minutes?

Arfs and rtfs are still nice. I flew arfs for years but any praise of the plane belonged to someone else. I just enjoyed half of a hobby.
Some people don't like the BOM rule. Well, let's put it this way, I don't just want to fly against you, I want to build against you too. Wow, that's a different level of competition at that point. If you want to sing karaoke, that's cool, I do to from time to time too. Just know that I've got a band and we write originals too. (Oh, and one of the secrets to a long life is always having something on the workbench.-its a true study in nonegenarians)

[Brent Williams]

As a guy who is busy as hell with 5 kids, demanding work and many other time intensive interests, I have really enjoyed flying the many planes that I have purchased or have been given (resurrected...) since returning to the hobby 7 or 8 years ago.  Yes, I have built several planes during this period as well.  Without those purchased/gifted planes, though, there is zero chance that I would have progressed as rapidly or had as many chances to even fly. 

The discussions and preening about who gets to be a true enthusiast of the hobby fall pretty flat to my ears.  One could argue, "don't be offended", however it denigrates those who love this hobby but have limitations of time, space, building skill or an allergy to the building materials/dust/smells.

I guess Miles Davis was an amateur because he didn't build his trumpet.
I suppose John Coltrane could have been better if only he had manufactured his saxophone.

[Gerald Arana]

I drank caffeine tonight, so here goes. I don't want to say anything negative about most people, but I will say some positive things. And I don't want this to discourage anybody, because there's nothing wrong with arfs and rtfs at all and many of us have been grateful for them at times. But...
There used to be a time I bought arfs and planes built by others. I loved flying and had no interest in how planes were built. In fact, I thought building from a kit, let alone scratch building, was insane.

For me, the joy of flying a plane is really about fifty percent of the joy of modeling. Well, that's pretty good, but if I didn't build it, it drops to about twenty five percent. After all, I'm just reeping the fruit of someone else's work. It's like karaoke. Sure, it's fun and all, but performing with a band that practiced, is live, and maybe even wrote the tune just destroys singing karaoke for me.
The 100 percent joy comes from building, maybe even designing, then flying and working on something I built. Now I've unlocked even more joy.
I have a few friends into jeeps. They will tell you, real jeeps aren't bought, they're built. It unlocks more joy

Here's another thought. If I build and fly a strega, if I win. Windy can share in part of my success. But if I actually fly Windy's plane, who really earned the trophy, the guy who designed and spent a hundred hours, or the guy who wiggles his wrist for six minutes?

Arfs and rtfs are still nice. I flew arfs for years but any praise of the plane belonged to someone else. I just enjoyed half of a hobby.
Some people don't like the BOM rule. Well, let's put it this way, I don't just want to fly against you, I want to build against you too. Wow, that's a different level of competition at that point. If you want to sing karaoke, that's cool, I do to from time to time too. Just know that I've got a band and we write originals too. (Oh, and one of the secrets to a long life is always having something on the workbench.-its a true study in nonegenarians)

I'm with you David. And I'll go you one farther. When I was in Glider competition I got the greatest joy out of "Designing and Scratch" building my own competition glider. The frosting on the cake was winning and having the "only" glider that wasn't a look alike of all the rest.

Keep up the good work, Jerry

[John Gluth]

I'm with you David. Current culture is of instant gratification. Including ready to eat frozen foods.
Bought AFRs or RTFs, at the sacrifice of satisfaction only a builder enjoys! E-RC club here is almost entirely RTF and hovering toys.

[Frank Imbriaco]

I entered this hobby as a kid(5th grade) in 1960. I built  the most crude crap imaginable. Totally unflyable.  Received zero help at home- Dad totally disinterested. Joined my first club in 1965 after repeatedly getting kicked out of a nearby park for making noise.  There I saw some beautiful aircraft and asked lots and lots of questions from the adults. Most were helpful, others had sealed lips. I met  really good builders who had big families(like John D'Ottavio with 6 kids). He gave me unlimited building advice, but never worked on my ships. Back then, almost everyone built their own.

In the late sixties, I bought two aircraft( Detroit Stunter and Smoothie) that weren't built by me. They were tattered up ,oil soaked heavy beasts that I detested. Building each and every R/C Pattern, Scale  and U/C Stunter and combat ship since 1969 has been the only way for me. Now a days,  I do tap into others, like Bob Hunt, for different techniques and approaches to building.

[Shorts,David]

I guess Miles Davis was an amateur because he didn't build his trumpet.
I suppose John Coltrane could have been better if only he had manufactured his saxophone.

Hi Brent, my garage still has about 50% hand me downs and arfs. I just discovered a greater joy when it was my first airplane in the sky rather than someone else's. But heck, I didn't grow the tree or plane the wood. And some guy in Oklahoma make my belcranks, etc. Yes, we have to fit our schedules.

[Brett Buck]

As a guy who is busy as hell with 5 kids, demanding work and many other time intensive interests, I have really enjoyed flying the many planes that I have purchased or have been given (resurrected...) since returning to the hobby 7 or 8 years ago.  Yes, I have built several planes during this period as well.  Without those purchased/gifted planes, though, there is zero chance that I would have progressed as rapidly or had as many chances to even fly. 

The discussions and preening about who gets to be a true enthusiast of the hobby fall pretty flat to my ears.  One could argue, "don't be offended", however it denigrates those who love this hobby but have limitations of time, space, building skill or an allergy to the building materials/dust/smells.

I guess Miles Davis was an amateur because he didn't build his trumpet.
I suppose John Coltrane could have been better if only he had manufactured his saxophone.

     Oh, come on!  He did not say one negative thing about anyone, just that you miss out on part of the experience, which is undeniably true. You are making a choice, no one said it was the wrong choice, far from it. And the event has gone far out of its way to accommodate you and those like you, including changing the rules to permit you to do what you want. Before 1974, if you don't have you own airplane, you don't fly. Not any more.

    No one looks down on you and there is no sanction for doing what you want, you are always very welcome.

   The reaction (as many times before) - nasty little mocking comments?  This is not a new phenomenon, but I have never understood it or the logic behind it.

      I fail to understand why there is so little tolerance for people wanting to enjoy their hobby the way they enjoy it - and anticipating the counter, David said absolutely nothing negative about other people's choices, he is just relating his own enjoyment of his choice.    How has this hurt you?  And, why are you getting offended by what someone else says?

    Brett

[Avaiojet]

      I fail to understand why there is so little tolerance for people wanting to enjoy their hobby the way they enjoy it - and anticipating the counter, David said absolutely nothing negative about other people's choices, he is just relating his own enjoyment of his choice.    How has this hurt you?  And, why are you getting offended by what someone else says?

Brett,

Gee, these are great words and I read them a few times so they would sink in.

Thank you.

[Shorts,David]

Half the guys at the rc club think a kit is just a baby fox.

[Brett Buck]

Yes, I was thinking of the rc clubs where nothin is built by the flier, and if you show up with a forty sized plane you build, it's quaint or overlooked.

    And they all, universally, *tell you how much it cost, in the first two sentences, whether you ask or not*, as if the cost is some figure of merit that reflects some sort of accomplishment.  I haven't seen that sort of stuff happen in CL, at least, not yet.

    Brett

[kevin king]

Windy summed it up best when he said, "There's room in the hobby for everyone!". It holds even more weight at our
current shrinking numbers.

[Dan Berry]

We are at a point where we simply welcome a live body with a plane to fly.
We WOULD be intrigued by a dead body flying a plane but not everyone would be welcoming.

[PJ Rowland]

I mean if we ARE going to play elitist there are countless variations of even that statement.

I build my own stuff except motor

I know guys who build their own motors.
Take a look at the "russian cement mixer" thread. He did everything except combine the air molecules to his design.

People like that dont upset me, they inspire me.

I know plenty of Nats winners who havent built their own wings,

This is an old argument. I build therefore I must be an elitist?

I think the purety of stunt is indeed in the expectation, and sense of achievement of a new plane. I know plenty of people who fly a range of planes, RTF, Hand me down planes, and I welcome anyone who is interested in the sport.

What I Don't like, is when these people tell me that a prebuilt plane is better than my own. Ive flown a few of these RTF designs and they virtually ALL flew the same way. (Which isnt a bad thing and yes im fully aware the last few world champions have flown this style of plane )

If I honestly felt that they flew better than what I was able to build then id switch, its JUST that simple. This stunt scene is a competition environment, make no mistake, Im here to win.


You learn alot more about the system when you can alter anything on it at any time without needing the mold.. ,
RTF crash it ? Send it back to Europe..


I grew up pre-prebuilt and there just wasn't an option. If you wanted to fly on Sunday you had to build it first.

[John Carrodus]

Windy summed it up best when he said, "There's room in the hobby for everyone!". It holds even more weight at our
current shrinking numbers.

I'm with you Kevin. As long as the pilgrim standing before me has a keen heart and a handle attached to a CL model ( built borrowed, bought or purloined) he will always be a welcome brother of mine. If flying a selfie, more kudos where due.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

> I'm with you Kevin. As long as the pilgrim standing before me has a keen heart and a handle attached to a CL model ( built borrowed, bought or purloined) he will always be a welcome brother of mine.

John,

Well said.  One step further, we have several members of our club that enjoy other aspects of the hobby like collecting, engine setup and helping run contests.  Are we happy when they stop by the field with a kit or engine we've been after, or show up at the shop and diagnose a bent rod on an engine, using mechanical feel developed over many decades?  Yes.

Peter

[Ken Culbertson]

Personally I almost view our hobby as two hobbies in one.  When I am building I am an engineer, machinist, architect, artist trying to produce my ultimate creation.  When I am flying I am a skater, dancer striving for perfection.  I love both equally and for that reason I personally have no problem with the BOM rule.  I know this thread is not specifically intended to be about the BOM but it is at the heart of it.  I think it is hurting us more now than helping.  When we had the 40 point rule there was reward for all phases of building but now there are only points for "shine".  We also allow a good part of the plane to be pre-fab.  I think there needs to be a separate award for appearance from flight score.  It has taken me a full 40 years to come to this conclusion.  Society has changed but the urge to compete is still with us.  When we encounter curious people who might be drawn to the sport we forget that we don't really have hobby shops worth a damn any more and most young adults are used to being able to buy most anything ready to go.  I know it is a long road from 1st flight to the 500 club but adding to that the task of learning to build a plane capable of it has to be a turn off to those recently bitten by the CL bug.  I have a grandson who would be a natural and really wants to learn to fly.  I know he will not continue as soon as he has to build his own.  We are rapidly running out of quality Balsa.  Molded and composite is out of reach for the average builder but if we could develop our own pre-fab industry around those of us who can produce , things change dramatically.

Sorry to go on a "rant".  I just don't want to see our hobby die because we are so wrapped in tradition that we don't recognize what is, at least in part,  killing it.

Ken

[PJ Rowland]

* removed *

[Trostle]

(Clip)

When your National Champion gets away with flying what is clearly a Yatsenko Shark and noone *really* cares because he has won so many and won the worlds.

Our Current National Champion knows what our AMA rules are.

(Clip)

Unless you know absolutely for sure that our National Champion did not build his airplane, you are absolutely wrong to claim otherwise.   For your information, our current National Champion did build his airplane, that looks like a Shark, in accordance with our AMA BOM rules.

Our current National Champion knows what our AMA rules are.

Keith Trostle
Chairman
AMA Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board

[Dan Berry]

Let it die.. bom rule is only hurting you.

I can tell you from an Outside perspectives

When your National Champion gets away with flying what is clearly a Yatsenko Shark and noone *really* cares because he has won so many and won the worlds.

Im sorry, but when you started to allow people to have other people building whole wings, stabs, fuses and you assembled and painted it.. thats not what I consider being a Nats champion.


Personally.. If I ever did win the Nats with a plane I didnt even build the wings myself for.. I wouldnt consider myself a true Nats champion.

People turn a blinde eye to this and its annoying.

I put hundreds and hundreds of hours into my planes and im competing against someone who just "signs a cheque""

Im talking in Australia NOW:

Our Nats have been won multiple times by someone flying a Yatsenko shark. He has a fleet of them now.

I know of many pilots at the World champs who said similar.. that if you fly a prebuilt plane you dont really understand stunt.

I dont care if you beat me on the scoreboard, doing with a shark proves that you dont have the skills required to compete with ME on the same field.

If thats elitist SURE.

I THINK YOU SHOULD BUILD THE WHOLE DAMN THING.

Ive accepted it, but just also know officially I dont respect anyone in this event who flies a plane they didn't build.

You win ? I say you cheated

You outflew me? I say you couldn't build your own plane and outfly me , so you had to get someone else to build it.

I am reminded of the motto at the Alaska Repertory Theatre.

" We don't care how they do it in New York"

[PJ Rowland]

Ohh Im sure it was "in accordance with the rules"

Unless you know absolutely for sure that our National Champion did not build his airplane, you are absolutely wrong.

By MY DEFINITION,  there have been countless Nats winners who have uses wings built by someone else.

Sure thats allowed, and its not even frowned upon, I get it.

I source my balsa and foam, built my own cutter, I cut my own core, physically cut my own ribs, lay them in the cradle I cut, glue them all together.

Im not dismissing guys who cant build a straight, light competitive wing..but dont sit there and tell me that building hasnt been compromised even " in accordance with the rules" by allowing ANY prefab parts.

Its pretty simple for me.

Did YOU BUILD the WHOLE plane ?

Its integrity at the end of the day, I wouldn't ever ask or expect the rules to change to allow someone else to FLY it for me, or even let me FLY 1 part of it.. why is this argument any different.

Your entirely open to your opinions.. and i will admit that plenty have won the Nats " in accordance with the rules"

But was it " in the spirit? "

unless it started as a pile of balsa and ended up :
as a completed plane
 100% built by the pilot
Then 100% painted by the pilot
And 100 % trimmed by the pilot
And 100% flown by the pilot

I dont think deviation of this is open to interpretation.

National champion used to mean ( to me ) the pinnacle of skill in every area.

Not "we have changed the rules to soften this"

Ok lets forget USA for a moment, the FAI and the pinnacle of this Worlds have been reduced to a flying event.

Its accurate to say there have been "world champions who have built their own planes and others who didnt build their own planes"

Its not a big deal.... Im probably just bitter and resentful I haven't won anything, so dont take what I have to say with any authority..

[Paul Walker]

Half the guys at the rc club think a kit is just a baby fox.

I was invited to attend my local RC clubs annual Christmas dinner and bring one of my planes. The president at the time is the local hobby shop owner, and RC Pylon flier at the Nats, who knows me. Most club members brought their planes, but a CL plane was the star of the show. They were all impressed with it, then I let them hold it feeling the weight. They were totally impressed that something that looked like that could be so light.

They knew building, but did not excel at it, and most bought RTF's, but still truly appreciated a "real" modeler. Their words, not mine! 

So, don't paint them all into the same corner.

[Curare]

Ohh Im sure it was "in accordance with the rules"

Unless you know absolutely for sure that our National Champion did not build his airplane, you are absolutely wrong.

By MY DEFINITION,  there have been countless Nats winners who have uses wings built by someone else.

Sure thats allowed, and its not even frowned upon, I get it.

I source my balsa and foam, built my own cutter, I cut my own core, physically cut my own ribs, lay them in the cradle I cut, glue them all together.

Im not dismissing guys who cant build a straight, light competitive wing..but dont sit there and tell me that building hasnt been compromised even " in accordance with the rules" by allowing ANY prefab parts.

Its pretty simple for me.

Did YOU BUILD the WHOLE plane ?

Its integrity at the end of the day, I wouldn't ever ask or expect the rules to change to allow someone else to FLY it for me, or even let me FLY 1 part of it.. why is this argument any different.

Your entirely open to your opinions.. and i will admit that plenty have won the Nats " in accordance with the rules"

But was it " in the spirit? "

unless it started as a pile of balsa and ended up :
as a completed plane
 100% built by the pilot
Then 100% painted by the pilot
And 100 % trimmed by the pilot
And 100% flown by the pilot

I dont think deviation of this is open to interpretation.

National champion used to mean ( to me ) the pinnacle of skill in every area.

Not "we have changed the rules to soften this"

Ok lets forget USA for a moment, the FAI and the pinnacle of this Worlds have been reduced to a flying event.

Its accurate to say there have been "world champions who have built their own planes and others who didnt build their own planes"

Its not a big deal.... Im probably just bitter and resentful I haven't won anything, so dont take what I have to say with any authority..

OK, I'll bite on this big shiny lure. Where do you draw the line? Lets say I go and design my aircraft from the ground up, with a mind to make it out of composite. I don't have a CNC so I farm that part out, and then go about making the wings, fuse and stab, all controls tank etc. eBasically I build everything except for the powerplant lines and wheels.

Becuase it's not carved from a single log of balsa, am I cheat? Because it's virtually indestiguishable from a Yatsenko (cos i liked the style) am I a cheat?

If I'm time poor and money rich, and would rather spend my time flying than building, and I buy a Yatsenko am I cheat?

If I build my balsa model from a RSM kit, am I cheat?

If someone apart from me cuts my cores, am I cheat?

I think you're holding up a very fine screen for modellers to filter through. Most if not all would probably fit into the category of 'cheating' by your measure.

In my opinion, if you have a model, and fly it better than me, you deserve to win. If you bought it, fine, you are entitled to your choice. If you built it, that's awesome. All power to you, but I'm not going to cry and split hairs over who built what.

[Steve Thomas]

Ok lets forget USA for a moment, the FAI and the pinnacle of this Worlds have been reduced to a flying event.

Agreed, it is absolutely a flying event. Whether you or I or anyone else agrees with that or not, that is what it unashamedly is. I think you’re on thin ice using words like ‘cheat’ and ‘integrity’ in regard to flyers who fly in this flying event, when they’re in strict accordance with both the rules and spirit of the event as it’s conducted.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Two thoughts.

Model aviation is a fun hobby, as it is less expensive compared to other vehicle competition, such as Formula 1 racing.  There's a series on Netflix that shows the 8 figure budgets required to compete there, the teams of up to one thousand people.  The sub two second pit stops are quite something, as are the complexity of the driver's controls.  Achievement in that sport, like many motor sports, is a team effort, requiring many skilled people.  Is it so unreasonable to expect that certain tasks such as casting model engine blocks or cutting foam cores are performed by other team members than the pilot?

A second thought is about what happens to stunt planes when their builders are unable to fly them.  I'm aware there are two schools of thought on this, either they should be passed on to able pilots, or the leadouts should be cut so they can not be used again.  Perhaps it's being frugal to a fault, but I think the best tribute is to continue flying them.

Peter

[Tim Wescott]

...
They knew building, but did not excel at it, and most bought RTF's, but still truly appreciated a "real" modeler. Their words, not mine!
...

Back when I flew with an RC club, about 10% of the members built their own planes to some degree (and we had one guy who was afraid to even assemble ARFs, even though in my opinion he would have been an excellent builder).  Everyone appreciated the kit- and scratch-built planes, even the ARF pilots.

[Shorts,David]

Agreed, it is absolutely a flying event. Whether you or I or anyone else agrees with that or not, that is what it unashamedly is. I think you’re on thin ice using words like ‘cheat’ and ‘integrity’ in regard to flyers who fly in this flying event, when they’re in strict accordance with both the rules and spirit of the event as it’s conducted.

I was never making a point about rules or cheating. But I am saying, if you buy a vector, or a shark, or a Cox PT-19, you miss the "bonus" joy of seeing what you built fly.
I'm sure I'll fly a plane built by someone else again at some point, and I'm sure I will miss the thrill of having built it myself.
After all, I could read books about MT Everest, watch videos about it, and win the world championship of Everest Trivia. But the guy who climbed it has something I don't.
It's the joy of modeling that I enjoy. Not just the joy of piloting.  And most events, clubs, and people are welcoming either way.

[Ken Culbertson]

It's the joy of modeling that I enjoy. Not just the joy of piloting.  And most events, clubs, and people are welcoming either way.

I am with you 100% but the point I was clumsily making in my earlier post is that the new blood that is coming in is more attracted to the flying than the building and we need new blood.

KenC

[Dwayne Donnelly]

For me, I'll never be a world class pilot and I'm 100% ok with that, I just enjoy being in my shop thinking up ideas and building, My planes are not 100% will never be on the front row but they look and fly good,  as has been stated many many times by many many builders. There really is nothing like seeing something you built take flight.

[Matt Colan]

I am with you 100% but the point I was clumsily making in my earlier post is that the new blood that is coming in is more attracted to the flying than the building and we need new blood.

KenC

There’s a guy I’m building airplanes for that 100% fits this. He has no ambition, or time to build. From what I’ve seen in videos he has sent me, he’s a natural flyer and has progressed rapidly from a rank beginner barely able to keep the plane in the air more than a few flights at a time, to a good intermediate flyer in a year’s time. I love to build, but flying is where you’re going to end up finding more participants in this day and age, and at the end of the day, getting people flying will grow the event. As they progress they may take to building, but that will take time

[Tom McClain]

I have introduced almost 10 prospects to control line in the last two years with my musciano trainer and testors sophomore 29. All enjoyed the first couple of flights and liked watching me fly the pattern, but when they understood the effort needed to go to further and the time involved, they quit. Most are into quick gratification and not willing to make the commitment.

The pop culture is the cancer that gets in the way.

[Tom McClain]

As far as the issue of builder of the model versus buying an already to fly airplane, that is not really the issue. The issue is whether or not you are willing to put the time in and the effort for perfect practice in in order that you can compete at the level of a Paul Walker, Dave Fitzgerald, Ted Fancher, Brent Buck, Orestis Hernandez, need I say more.? 

When I was really serious about fllying, I borrowed a cavalier 670 that a friend of mine had and practiced with it and could go to meets such as the East Coast ones at Huntersville, Jacksonville, Virginia, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and compete at the level of finishing in third place without builder the model points. 

Builder of the model only becomes relevant at the level of the top Flyers win only less than five points separate them from each other.

Builder the model also is relevant if you want to be able to personalize your aircraft to yourself. Ready to fly models do not lend themselves to personalizing the airplane to your flying style.  When you build a model yourself, you know the power plant, the. fuel system, the controls, everything about the model and you are able to personalize it to yourself. Purchasing a ready to fly model does not lend itself to that reality.

[Sean McEntee]

If you didn’t grow the balsa tree yourself, it’s not BOM legal…

[Tom McClain]

One advantage to building your own stunt ship, is knowing that you’re going to have an ax that you can keep sharp and cut as much lumber as possible. What I mean by having a sharp ax is you keep working with the airplane that you built, improving it, making it fit your flying style, and it is just like a lumberjack who forgets to sharpen his ax. He may work as hard as anybody else, but he does not cut as much lumber as the ones who sharpen their ax.

[Tom McClain]

I have introduced almost 10 prospects to control line in the last two years with my musciano trainer and testors sophomore 29. All enjoyed the first couple of flights and liked watching me fly the pattern, but when they understood the effort needed to go to further and the time involved, they quit. Most are into quick gratification and not willing to make the commitment.

The pop culture is the cancer that gets in the way.

Until Americans value Freedom and rugged individualism again, individual effort sports and hobbies will be supplanted by wokeness, political correctness, and social justice foolishness. What we do here is perceived as white supremacy, not improvement of the collective. Collectivism is the cancer we must overcome.

Doubt me, look at the recent olympics. Wokeness was valued over individualism and excellence. Megan Rapinoe, Gwen Perry, and Raven Saunders are the best examples of olympians that hate the USA and have said so.

[Ken Culbertson]

As far as the issue of builder of the model versus buying an already to fly airplane, that is not really the issue. The issue is whether or not you are willing to put the time in and the effort for perfect practice....

This is a given for the person that has decided that they have a shot at joining that group.  But what about the guy who can't put together an  IKIA bookshelf but finds flying really fun and wants to compete.  He is going to quit well before he gets the "Stunt Virus" which leads one to make that commitment.  In the 60+ years I have been at this I have never seen anyone go from a level fight beginner to what is now Expert in anything less than two or three years.  Let's get new blood into the sport and wait till they are addicted before you start making the "commitment" speech.  In fact, if you need to make the "commitment" speech you probably talking to the wrong person.

For the most part, I am playing Devil's advocate here.  Since my fire I have been regulated to borrowed ARF's for my "fix".  Competed only once and basically said "never again" with an ARF.  I am as close to the grow your own balsa tree type of guy as you can find.  Since the 60's I have not competed with a plane that I not only built but also designed except for one contest  where I flew an ARF Nobler in classic.   

So why am I against the BOM in it's present form?  I want to see our hobby outlive me.

Ken

[Tom McClain]

This is a given for the person that has decided that they have a shot at joining that group.  But what about the guy who can't put together an  IKIA bookshelf but finds flying really fun and wants to compete.  He is going to quit well before he gets the "Stunt Virus" which leads one to make that commitment.  In the 60+ years I have been at this I have never seen anyone go from a level fight beginner to what is now Expert in anything less than two or three years.  Let's get new blood into the sport and wait till they are addicted before you start making the "commitment" speech.  In fact, if you need to make the "commitment" speech you probably talking to the wrong person.

For the most part, I am playing Devil's advocate here.  Since my fire I have been regulated to borrowed ARF's for my "fix".  Competed only once and basically said "never again" with an ARF.  I am as close to the grow your own balsa tree type of guy as you can find.  Since the 60's I have not competed with a plane that I not only built but also designed except for one contest  where I flew an ARF Nobler in classic.   

So why am I against the BOM in it's present form?  I want to see our hobby outlive me.

Ken

Again I will say again, it isn’t BOM that is the enemy, it is the pop culture of instant gratification. I have got over 10 to soloing straight and level, but inverted flight , let alone just doin a loop, discourages them. Why? No willingness to stay with it. Most want it now.

When they can loop and fly inverted, they want to go further and the stunt pattern just follows.  Then some want to build their own to have something better.  Few have the intestinal fortitude to stick it out.

Blaming BOM is like the SJWs blaming the country for their unwillingness to truly be an American and strive for individual excellence.

[Dave_Trible]

I don't know that the BOM rule is much of a stumbling block for most these days.  With only a very few exceptions locally,  the Nats OPEN event is the only place where it is applied.  PAMPA events don't require it.  At the Nats,  Advanced allows bought, begged, borrowed or stolen airplanes as long as they receive NO appearance points.  That in itself makes it nearly impossible to win or place very highly unless you build the airplane and receive those appearance points.  I have always been pro-BOM but having attempted MANY times over the decades to get new people involved,  for many its a bridge too far to expect them to build very much.  The younger people didn't usually grow up with a home workshop nor parents who valued this skill set.  To think they can or will provide the space, accept the mess and acquire the materials and tools to build may look like a mountain to new folks. I also realize we tend to push new people into competition.  In the beginning they just want to play with their toys.  Maybe they should just be allowed that space.  The rest will follow if the interest is there.  I think we can't afford to shun ANYONE who has interest in our sport regardless of how big a bite they are wanting to take.  Things and people have changed.  The best thing I think is for us to accept that and try to adapt somewhat if we have to.  Those who become 'lifers' will build at some point when they find that HUGE dimension of our hobby benefits them. 

Dave

[Tom McClain]

As a guy who is busy as hell with 5 kids, demanding work and many other time intensive interests, I have really enjoyed flying the many planes that I have purchased or have been given (resurrected...) since returning to the hobby 7 or 8 years ago.  Yes, I have built several planes during this period as well.  Without those purchased/gifted planes, though, there is zero chance that I would have progressed as rapidly or had as many chances to even fly. 

The discussions and preening about who gets to be a true enthusiast of the hobby fall pretty flat to my ears.  One could argue, "don't be offended", however it denigrates those who love this hobby but have limitations of time, space, building skill or an allergy to the building materials/dust/smells.

I guess Miles Davis was an amateur because he didn't build his trumpet.
I suppose John Coltrane could have been better if only he had manufactured his saxophone.

The premise of this thread is flawed. It is not modelers vs pilots, it is the pop culture of laziness and instant gratification and the unwillingness to persist that is the enemy of sports, hobbies, and the search for personal excellence.

[Gerald Arana]

Can someone explain this "WOKE" crap to me please?

I looked up "WOKE" in my unabridged dictionary and it says "AWAKE". How is being awake a political thing??

Jerry

PS: Thank you.

[Tom McClain]

Can someone explain this "WOKE" crap to me please?

I looked up "WOKE" in my unabridged dictionary and it says "AWAKE". How is being awake a political thing??

Jerry

PS: Thank you.

“Woke” is the sad state of being properly aware of perceived but false social injustice like systemic racism, ageism, white privilege, prejudice both known and unknown and the belief that whites are oppressors and everyone else is oppressed such as critical race theory and the belief that hard work, persistence, freedom, individual rights, and the search for personal excellence is racist.

[Brett Buck]

It has long been obvious that there is a wide range of opinion about what is acceptable. I am personally comfortable with what we have (a reasonable definition of what can and can't be pre-fabricated, and a clear statement about how building and flying is the intent). Given that, I am not going to be pointing fingers, and encourage everyone else to not point fingers, at individuals, just because you don't like the rule (either too strict/exist at all,  or too lax).

   I really don't appreciate brickbats tossed at Orestes. He has gone to more effort to show his work than any of the rest of us have - Warren has never checked my build pictures, since there aren't any - and made the grade. He knows and understands the rules, he signed a document saying he was going to follow the rules, so as far as I am concerned, that's good enough for me, case closed.

Otherwise, I would be at least as aggrieved as anyone else, because he has beat me out of multiple Walker Trophy wins and at least a few team spots. *I* lost those contests, and *I* am responsible for those, not anyone else, not sneaky rules violations, nothing but *not building and flying well enough to win*. I lost the 2008 NATS by 1.25 points - while making at least 30 points worth of correctable errors. The Shark didn't cause those.

   I haven't been victimized, and by extension, *neither has anyone else*.  Orestes Hernandez is a stellar competitor and fine and honorable man. Anything who might imagine he does not deserve what he has gotten in stunt *doesn't know what he is talking about*.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

“Woke” is the sad state of being properly aware of perceived but false social injustice like systemic racism, ageism, white privilege, prejudice both known and unknown and the belief that whites are oppressors and everyone else is oppressed such as critical race theory and the belief that hard work, persistence, freedom, individual rights, and the search for personal excellence is racist.

  Socialism/Communism are (stupid) ideas intended to address class warfare. The USA is a classless society, "all men are created equal" and "equal protection" make class distinctions wrong and illegal.

    So, to implement socialism/communism, you first have to *create* class warfare. Enter the "woke" movement - everyone is out to screw everyone else, white men are the ultimate culprits behind it all, and for someone to succeed, someone else has to lose, because life is a zero-sum game. Take it seriously, and you *will* have class warfare  - at which point the socialists/communists can swoop in with their solution.

    Of course, it doesn't and can't solve the problem, all it does is pick different winners and losers, and in every single example so far, *greatly polarized* society into oligarchs and crushed almost everyone else into grinding inescapable poverty, while dragging down the entire system to second-world levels, far worse than it was originally.

    They have been surprisingly successful, but make no mistake, class/race/sex distinctions in the law are opposed to *every single formative principle*, and were the *alternate* and *far superior* solution to the ills of class warfare common in the Old World. The founding principles of the republic *are the correct solution to the problems of class distinction*, they set out to solve it once and for all, and as long as we all understand that, it does.

    Brett

[John Park]

I've got more pleasure from reading this thread than from almost anything else I've read in recent times.  The enthusiasm, the intensity, the passion with which people state and defend their views is just another sign of what makes our hobby such a great 'total leisure activity', as somebody once called it.  For me, the main satisfaction is in 'doing my own thing' - it's years since I've built a kit, and I've never bought a bellcrank in my life - but that has a lot to do with growing up in a working-class family in the 1950s, when money was short and you did everything the cheapest way possible.  Now I can afford anything I want to buy, I still find myself making things from scratch with whatever materials I have to hand (I'm just finishing a C/L handle), simply for the pleasure of using such skill as I have to make something that's exactly what I had in mind, and not somebody else's idea of what I should have.
To sum it up, I think aeromodelling is about being creative, in one way or many ways - just like any other art form, except that you generally don't get very far trying to fly a portrait in oils (or a sculpture in marble!).

[Ken Culbertson]

There is a "solution" (which is really one man's idea of what everybody else thinks is stupid ).  Drop the BOM and appearance points at all but the Nats and the "Classic" events.  Replace it with a separate award for "appearance".  Competitions are at heart a flying event.  We do this pretty much already in all but Classic and Expert but it is a local thing.  I know that this will not set well with the older group (me included) but it will help with the attendance.  Ever hear of someone not flying a contest because they were not awarding appearance points?  I haven't.

Just a parting note - there is not anybody that is wrong in how they feel about this topic.

Ken

[Tom McClain]

Again I will say again, it isn’t BOM that is the enemy, it is the pop culture of instant gratification. I have got over 10 to soloing straight and level, but inverted flight , let alone just doin a loop, discourages them. Why? No willingness to stay with it. Most want it now.

But, when they can loop and fly inverted, they want to go further and the stunt pattern just follows.  Then some want to build their own to have something better.  Few have the intestinal fortitude to stick it out.  I am not talking about competition but about just Sunday Flying and doing the pattern for the pure enjoyment of Aerial Ballet.

Blaming BOM for the decline of the hobby is like the SJWs blaming the country for their unwillingness to truly be an American and strive for individual excellence.

The premise of this thread is flawed. It is not modelers vs pilots, it is the pop culture of laziness and instant gratification and the unwillingness to persist at anything that requires work and a pursuit of excellence that is the enemy of sports, hobbies, and the search for personal excellence.

What is wrong is when we let our "Feelings" guide our logic.  That is why the pop culture has run over the American Way of Freedom and Rugged Individualism and Enlightened Self Interest.  I am not talking about selfishness and narcissism but about what Dr. Jordan Peterson has described as getting one's own house in order (Informed Self Improvement based on objective truth) before you start telling others how to get their act together.

Logic and experience reveal the truth about why our hobby is declining.  Pop Culture and its subversive attack on the American Way.

[John Rist]

The Truth about the decline.  When I got into control line it was 1954.  At that time the big new thing was aviation.  New airplane designs were coming out every day. Speed records were being set daily.  Every boy (and girls) wanted to be a pilot. So interest in model airplanes was high.  Cheep functional RC systems were yet to be invented.  So control line modeling was the BIG deal.  Now the new thing on the block is electronics.  Every day new and wonderful electronic devices are showing up.  Along with this it's almost impossible to  "build your own".  Drones are the exciting new thing.   One would be hard pressed to build, from scratch, a drone.  At best you can assemble one from manufactured parts. So the natural evolution is for young people to become users not builders.  And yes they are growing up in a fast pace world of "I want it right now!"

So like most thing of the past, control line airplanes are enjoyed by only a few.  As the world moves on so does the youth of the world.  Nothing anybody can do about it.  The bottom line is stop worrying and griping about the decline of our hobby.  Go build something and fly it.  The NOW generation will do there thing and we control liners will do our thing.  Stop worrying about things you can't change and just enjoy life. Tight lines and safe landings to all.

[Matt Colan]

Tom, I have to disagree with most of what you’re saying. Aviation, and more specifically, model airplanes, is not interesting, nerdy, and not cool. That’s just a fact of life these days. The amount of people that become interested in model airplanes is incredibly small, and those interested in control-line precision aerobatics, much much smaller. I love all things aviation, I live and breathe this stuff. I enjoy working air traffic, talking to airplanes, seeing different planes, and building and flying model airplanes. That’s an interest someone has to be pretty much born with, and then fostered.

I have spent my breaks at work pitching props, balancing props, and doodling on my computer with paint scheme ideas. Today I’m going to put together a free flight airplane. It’s an inherent interest I have. One of my coworkers saw my stuff on the breakroom table one day and wrote on a paper plate “loser lounge.” It was hilarious but at the end of the day, messing with this stuff qualifies you as a nerd (in my age group) and I’m completely okay with it.

If somebody is actually interested in stunt, they will come back and continue on in their interest. You cannot force it on people, they will end up resenting it and not want to participate. Trying to associate the woke, socialism/communism, and all of their faults, with people not interested in flying model airplanes, is an incorrect assumption. My friends spend a lot of their free time playing video games and watching/playing sports. That’s not an issue of socialism, it’s part of today’s culture. It’s a dopamine problem because, like you said, it results in instant gratification, and our brains become addicted to the screen, and the Xbox/PS5.

I do applaud you in getting those 10 people to learn how to fly, even if the interest hasn’t stuck. It’s more than I have done over the last 15 years I’ve been flying stunt. I want to get a flight streak and LA 25 to have just in case somebody is interested. One of these days, I’m sure somebody will eventually start coming back and want to continue, but my prediction is it’s going to take a special person that will come back to fly and continue learning, and eventually building. Building an airplane is probably the most daunting task for new pilots, and an ARF is probably the best way to go about teaching them how to fly. If it crashes, you just go buy another one and continue on with learning. If you have to build a new plane after every crash, that would be incredibly discouraging to a beginner

[Tom McClain]

Tom, I have to disagree with most of what you’re saying. Aviation, and more specifically, model airplanes, is not interesting, nerdy, and not cool. That’s just a fact of life these days. The amount of people that become interested in model airplanes is incredibly small, and those interested in control-line precision aerobatics, much much smaller. I love all things aviation, I live and breathe this stuff. I enjoy working air traffic, talking to airplanes, seeing different planes, and building and flying model airplanes. That’s an interest someone has to be pretty much born with, and then fostered.

I have spent my breaks at work pitching props, balancing props, and doodling on my computer with paint scheme ideas. Today I’m going to put together a free flight airplane. It’s an inherent interest I have. One of my coworkers saw my stuff on the breakroom table one day and wrote on a paper plate “loser lounge.” It was hilarious but at the end of the day, messing with this stuff qualifies you as a nerd (in my age group) and I’m completely okay with it.

If somebody is actually interested in stunt, they will come back and continue on in their interest. You cannot force it on people, they will end up resenting it and not want to participate. Trying to associate the woke, socialism/communism, and all of their faults, with people not interested in flying model airplanes, is an incorrect assumption. My friends spend a lot of their free time playing video games and watching/playing sports. That’s not an issue of socialism, it’s part of today’s culture. It’s a dopamine problem because, like you said, it results in instant gratification, and our brains become addicted to the screen, and the Xbox/PS5.

I do applaud you in getting those 10 people to learn how to fly, even if the interest hasn’t stuck. It’s more than I have done over the last 15 years I’ve been flying stunt. I want to get a flight streak and LA 25 to have just in case somebody is interested. One of these days, I’m sure somebody will eventually start coming back and want to continue, but my prediction is it’s going to take a special person that will come back to fly and continue learning, and eventually building. Building an airplane is probably the most daunting task for new pilots, and an ARF is probably the best way to go about teaching them how to fly. If it crashes, you just go buy another one and continue on with learning. If you have to build a new plane after every crash, that would be incredibly discouraging to a beginner

Matt,

What you have said does not dissuade me one bit in the objective observed truth that I have written about.  I was an AFJROTC senior instructor for 8 years at a local high school and watched teens, grades 9-12, turn down opportunities one after another because of the pop culture and the desire for having it now.  I coached a Varsity Sporter Class Air Rifle Team of girls and boys and saw the same problems, but succeeded with 10 % of the cadets that I got to try out air rifle.  What turned the page was winning.  We ended up after 3 years of effort by winning at the state level and then at the national level.  We were first in state for three years and 10th in the nation out of 3000 schools for the same period.  But, desire and persistence and perfect practice could not be substituted for.

The same applies to control line aerobatics. 

In the real aviation world, pilots are  perceived now by youth as only glorified bus drivers.  Aviation is of no interest to many because it takes education, investment of time and resources, and persistence.  Then when youth get into military or commercial aviation they want the perks now instead of submitting to the apprentice of experience and time that piloting takes.  The Pop Culture is the cancer that causes this.  Just look at America's Got Talent and The Voice.  Instant Gratification.  The Pop Culture is the search for 15 minutes of fame and not the reward of the realization of personal improvement and the attainment of excellence after hard work and persistence.

Frustration was the key impediment of the 10 plus that I introduced to the hobby.  They couldn't wait to attain the next level of inverted flight and looping. The belief was and is that more money is the answer which is a false promise.  Don't believe me, just look at Washington DC and the proliferate spending that is ruining the nation.

[Trostle]

  Drop the BOM and appearance points at all but the Nats and the "Classic" events.  Replace it with a separate award for "appearance".  Competitions are at heart a flying event.  We do this pretty much already in all but Classic and Expert but it is a local thing.

Ken

Ken,

You just explained an approach for a rules change that is absolutely not needed.  In some areas of the country, local contests already forego appearance points and the BOM requirement which is an option for any contest just as you mention.  For those who still want to hold contests with the BOM requirement and award appearance points, they can do so.  Not doing so does not require a formal rules change.  There is no need to change the rules because some elements want to do so because they can proceed with contests that do not apply the BOM rule.

The Nats is a different situation where by a 70 year tradition, there are still age categories and the BOM requirement reigns supreme.  Until there is a complete replacement of the "old guard", it will always be that way.  The Nats is still a model airplane event, not a flying event.

Keith

[Gerald Arana]

“Woke” is the sad state of being properly aware of perceived but false social injustice like systemic racism, ageism, white privilege, prejudice both known and unknown and the belief that whites are oppressors and everyone else is oppressed such as critical race theory and the belief that hard work, persistence, freedom, individual rights, and the search for personal excellence is racist.

Thank you Tom and Brett. Your explanations are excellent.

I R now edgeamacated....
Jerry