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Author Topic: Engine for Oriental build  (Read 11961 times)

Offline Sheldon Hartwell

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Engine for Oriental build
« on: December 28, 2012, 09:49:47 PM »
Hi everyone,
     With all of the great responses and feedbacks to various questions that people have asked, I figured that I would post on of my own.
      I've currently got a full fuselage Brodak Oriental on the building boards and I'm quickly approaching the stage to where I have to drill the holes for the engine mounting. The requirements on the kit itself call for a .35 to .40 engine. I have a couple of Fox .35 engines kicking around the shop, but I don't know if that will be ample power to haul the model around.
      The kit will be finished with Sig Koverall ( I love working with this stuff ), and butyrate dope. I fly strictly for fun so, blazing performance is not required. Any suggestions as to engine size or brand would be greatly appreciated.
                                                                                     Thanks Again,
                                                                                         Sheldon

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2012, 10:04:57 PM »
Hi Sheldon,
Actually the Oriental was originally designed for the Fox 35.  Many have been successfully flown with that engine.  In fact the Oriental has a relatively long nose to balance with the light engine (Fox 35).  If you decided to use a different engine an OS35S is about the same weight and would also be a good choice.
I have flown one with a LA46 and it worked very well but was built with 1 1/2 inches removed from the stock nose to get the CG where it belonged.
In other words anything much heavier than the Fox or OS 35S will require shortening the nose or UUgggh...a fair amount of tail weight (as much as a couple ounces)!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Sheldon Hartwell

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2012, 10:19:14 PM »
Hi Randy,
    You know, I was kind of wondering abou that, When I was looking at the plans, the side view of the fuselage seemed to show the outline of a Fox .35 . I didn't know if it was real, or just inked in for generic purposes.
                                                                                          Sheldon

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2012, 10:59:58 PM »
Yeah...
When the Oriental was originally designed by Dee Rice (nice fellow) the Fox 35 was pretty much the engine of choice for Stunt!
It's a very nice flying airplane if built light and straight!  I've built several in the past but not from the Brodak kit.  However the Brodak kits are typically very good.

Best of luck.  If there are anymore questions during the build there is always plenty of help available here...that's why we're here!

Randy Cuberly
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Tucson, AZ

Offline Steve Riebe

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 06:47:31 AM »
Hi Sheldon,
Actually the Oriental was originally designed for the Fox 35.  Many have been successfully flown with that engine.  In fact the Oriental has a relatively long nose to balance with the light engine (Fox 35).  If you decided to use a different engine an OS35S is about the same weight and would also be a good choice.
I have flown one with a LA46 and it worked very well but was built with 1 1/2 inches removed from the stock nose to get the CG where it belonged.
In other words anything much heavier than the Fox or OS 35S will require shortening the nose or UUgggh...a fair amount of tail weight (as much as a couple ounces)!

Randy Cuberly

I hope I'm not de-railing this thread, but I'm starting a build of the profile version of the Oriental. I was planning on using a OS LA46. Is it safe to assume I should also be building with the nose shortened 1-1/2"? Are there any other modifications I should consider?

Offline Allen Brickhaus

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 08:38:26 AM »
My Oriental finished is 43.8 ounces with a Fox 35.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 08:56:34 AM »
Mine flew great with a Brodak .40.   Even balanced on the spot.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
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Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 09:11:26 AM »
My oldest son has one with a OS .40LA and he likes it.  It had a .46LA in it before he recieved it and he was told that was a good chose also.  I just didn't have one to put in it.

Offline Jerry Higgins

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 10:31:22 AM »
Sheldon,
I have an Oriental, powered by an LA .46, I built from Pat Johnson plans several years ago.  The wing is moved forward 1/2 inch, which is within the limits Pat included on the plan of up to 1.5 inches.  The plane required about 1/4 ounce tail weight. The next one will be moved forward 1 inch. Total weight was originally 45 oz.  (The wing wood was too heavy, so will be more careful next time.)  Originally I put a modified FP 40 in the plane, which was o.k., but quickly changed over to an LA .46.  It flies beautifully and required only minor trimming of lead-out sweep.  The .46 growls around the circle with no effort turning a cyclone 11x4.5 (available at Tower) and penetrates wind well.  I have flown it in moderate to high wind at VSC; Albuquerque, NN contest, and Topeka, KS contest with no problems.  I regularly fly here in CO at 6,200 feet.  Even at 45 oz and mid 90s temperatures at high elevation, the plane handles beautifully.  The "O" is a great design, and with plenty of power it is a good flying, simple to build, classic airplane.

Hope this helps.

Jerry Higgins

Offline proparc

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 11:13:59 AM »
My Oriental finished is 43.8 ounces with a Fox 35.

Allen, what covering are you using on the wing?
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2012, 02:39:48 PM »
I hope I'm not de-railing this thread, but I'm starting a build of the profile version of the Oriental. I was planning on using a OS LA46. Is it safe to assume I should also be building with the nose shortened 1-1/2"? Are there any other modifications I should consider?

Hi Steve,
The answer to your question depends somewhat on what muffler you plan to use on the LA46.  If the stock OS muffler is used (it works very well but is heavy) 1 1/2 inches of either shortening the nose or moving the wing forward (best choice) would be my reccommendation. If a tongue muffler is used 1 inch should be adequate.
I would add however that I'm really not familiar with the profile kit so can't make much in the way of other potential changes.  I would simply add that the common problem with all profiles is flexibility of the rear portion of the fuselage so any additional stiffening back there will usually reap benefits, providing it doesn't add a lot of extra weight.  I'm a firm believer that stifness of components is more important than a few extra ounces, but efforts should still be made to keep the structure light.  There's always a trade off here and it's somewhat dependent on the individual design.  The Oriental has a good wing and will carry some weight, especially with the LA46 for power.  I would think 45 to even 47 ounces would yield acceptable results.
In general a thicker stab is stiffer and always improves stability and flying ability, so that's one area I usually address on most profiles.

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Richard Koehler

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2012, 04:55:59 PM »
Just finished my Oriental last month from a Brodak Kit that I thought was mostly excellant.  I added a tank hatch to mine so that I could get at the tank easily to change it if necessary.  I also love Sig Coverall but I wound up using Ultracoat on the wings and Rustoleum on the fuselog and trim.  I built mine around a new Brodak 40 and am having trouble with that engine so I haven't flown mine yet.  With the B-40 and tongue muffler my Oriental came out at 43 oz.  What I wish I had done was to use one of my Fox-35's or my Double Star 40.  Good luck!

Offline proparc

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2012, 05:21:43 PM »
Just finished my Oriental last month from a Brodak Kit that I thought was mostly excellant.  

Richard, your Oriental is beautiful! Did you spray any clearcoat over your Rustoleum?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 05:38:48 PM by proparc »
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2012, 05:28:35 PM »
Hi Sheldon,

Depending on what purpose you have in mind, the engine choice is quite variable.  An all out competition machine might look towards a .46LA, Brodak .40, Magnum .36XLS, or even an Aero Tiger .36. (my favorite)

If it is for fun and sport, a Fox .35 will work fine if built at a "reasonable" weight.  See Allen B.'s model above. (and it is for competition!)

It is true that Dee Rice designed the Oriental for a Fox .35, and they will still fly awful good with one.

BIG Bear
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James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

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Offline Sheldon Hartwell

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2012, 06:19:15 PM »
Hi all,
    This is  fantastic input to my original question, but, having several references to the OS-46, is there enough clearance between where the engine is mounted and the firewall ? I ask this because the needle valve is located behind the motor itself. I ask this because there are several other engines ( slightly higher in price ) in the same catagory. Some of the options include Fox, Super Tigre, and Stuka Stunt Works engines.
                                                                                   Thanks again,
                                                                                               Sheldon

Offline proparc

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2012, 06:44:53 PM »
I apologize for getting caught up with Richard's Oriental,(it's nice looking man). As to Sheldons question-it's a no brainer, Aero Tiger 36!! y1
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Allen Brickhaus

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2012, 06:56:26 PM »
Allen, what covering are you using on the wing?

The older see through MonoKote.

The Brodak like kind may have the same hue

Offline Allen Brickhaus

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2012, 06:57:59 PM »
Richard, your Oriental is beautiful! Did you spray any clearcoat over your Rustoleum?

With the exception of RustOleum clear coat and metallics all the paints are fuel proof to 35% nitro.


Offline Bill Little

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2012, 07:51:19 PM »
Hi all,
    This is  fantastic input to my original question, but, having several references to the OS-46, is there enough clearance between where the engine is mounted and the firewall ? I ask this because the needle valve is located behind the motor itself. I ask this because there are several other engines ( slightly higher in price ) in the same catagory. Some of the options include Fox, Super Tigre, and Stuka Stunt Works engines.
                                                                                   Thanks again,
                                                                                               Sheldon

Hi Sheldon,

First, convert the rear NVA to a normal one in front.  The venturi is available from Tower as well as an NVA for The OS .20-.25 FP and LA.  Then seal the backplate with silicon.  Also, do not over tighten the bolts.  Many simply replace the back plate with an aluminum one from member Curtis Shipp.  Then fit as large a tank as possible.  The .46 can vary widely as to need fuel used.

Bill
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2012, 08:49:21 PM »
Hi all,
    This is  fantastic input to my original question, but, having several references to the OS-46, is there enough clearance between where the engine is mounted and the firewall ? I ask this because the needle valve is located behind the motor itself. I ask this because there are several other engines ( slightly higher in price ) in the same catagory. Some of the options include Fox, Super Tigre, and Stuka Stunt Works engines.
                                                                                   Thanks again,
                                                                                               Sheldon

Sheldon,
If price is no object the Aero Tiger from Randy Smith at Aeroproducts is the engine of choice...very light, very powerful, and great running stunt engine.
Albeit a little more expensive than the others mentioned.
I have two of them and they are definitely plug and play...best of the lot of 36/40 stunt engines.  The LA46 will fly a larger plane but is considerably heavier and is not necessary for the Oriental.

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Allen Brickhaus

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2012, 12:21:42 PM »
L&J Fox .35 installation in the Oriental.

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2012, 06:02:10 PM »
I'm not doing a classic right now but if I were I think I would get me a new Enya .35.  Was looking at their website the other day and I think folks have been overlooking some nice stuff.  May get one just to keep for the future. I think Randy has them.

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Offline proparc

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2012, 07:17:45 PM »
I'm not doing a classic right now but if I were I think I would get me a new Enya .35.  Was looking at their website the other day and I think folks have been overlooking some nice stuff.  May get one just to keep for the future. I think Randy has them.

Dave

Flew that motor down here in Texas. First class powerplant.
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Allen Brickhaus

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2013, 10:24:46 AM »
I'm not doing a classic right now but if I were I think I would get me a new Enya .35.  Was looking at their website the other day and I think folks have been overlooking some nice stuff.  May get one just to keep for the future. I think Randy has them.

Dave

I believe you are right Dave.  The Enya .35 sounds fine to me.

Offline Steve Thomas

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2013, 12:21:23 AM »
I'm not doing a classic right now but if I were I think I would get me a new Enya .35.  Was looking at their website the other day and I think folks have been overlooking some nice stuff. 

Quite so, Dave. I think at times there's a kind of LA46 groupthink on the forums, so that a lot of other worthy engines never get much consideration. A shame when Enya are making high-quality CL stuff that lasts forever and works right out of the box, with no need to mess with plastic backplates, remote needles etc.   

I've got an SS35 in a Chizler and it's a beautiful engine; there's also the SS30, which weighs barely more than a Fox 35, has more power, and would be a fine choice for a classic on the low 40 oz range.

Steve

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2013, 08:24:34 AM »
Quite so, Dave. I think at times there's a kind of LA46 groupthink on the forums, so that a lot of other worthy engines never get much consideration. A shame when Enya are making high-quality CL stuff that lasts forever and works right out of the box, with no need to mess with plastic backplates, remote needles etc.   

I've got an SS35 in a Chizler and it's a beautiful engine; there's also the SS30, which weighs barely more than a Fox 35, has more power, and would be a fine choice for a classic on the low 40 oz range.

Steve

Well Steve...The LA46 "Group Think" as you call it has come about because most everyone has come to realize that for the money invested there is nothing out there that runs as well for stunt.  Certainly there are other engines that run very well.  Most of them cost considerably more than the LA46 and are not as user friendly.  Most of the people here that reccommend LA46's for less than expert fliers do so because they know from experience that it will do the job and that the OS quality is very consistent.  It's always a good reccommendation.
It's not group think...it's experience.

Randy Cuberly
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Tucson, AZ

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2013, 10:49:03 AM »
And the LA .46 fits right in where the LA .40 used to be.   In my opinion they are all great engines.  It just depends on how you take care of them.   In the 70's we had a modeler tha swore by the Enya engines.  He had one in a SIG Chipmunk.  Had numerous flights on it but never flew competition.  Just a sport flyer.  The last flight on that engine the spinner, prop and hardware went flying out of the circle.  We thought it was the crank shaft finally giving up.  That shaft was fine.  The engine was locked up solid.  He took it home and the last I heard was tha he could not get the piston and rod out of the cylinder.  He stated he even took a hammer and a wooden dowel to it even after heating the cylinder.   But, since I have seen many Enya's in use by people just sport flying.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
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Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2013, 11:52:21 AM »
How is the LA 46 so popular when it's an $85 engine that doesn't work right out of the box?  You've got a garbage plastic backplate, politically correct but nearly universally hated remote needlevalve, boat anchor R/C muffler, and Japanese spec screws, all are headaches.  After you spend $15 on a normal needlevalve, and more on a real backplate, screws, and a reasonable muffler, is the LA 46 still such a great deal?  Is it acceptable to expect a novice to buy specialized tools, and rebuild a brand new engine to make it run right?  From browsing the LA 46 setup thread, it's clear that no two people are running their LA 46 the same way.  There's no consistency, props, needle valves, venturis, backplates, heads (stock, hemi, relieved), head gaskets, etc.  So now in addition to amateur mechanic, we expect the novice to sort through all the variations and pick one to make work.  Is it any wonder electrics are gaining popularity?  I understand how this becomes normal for those who like to constantly tinker, but I think as a group we tend to forget that for a novice it's a bit overwhelming to just build the plane and make it fly, much less getting it trimmed, learning to tune the needlevalve, etc without getting into the standard procedure of trying to make an LA 46 work. 

I'd run a Fox 35, or a Max-S 35.  Both are lighter, so you can build the plane to plan, and they generate the appropriate 4-2-4 stunt run.  Both work right out of the box, with all the stock parts, and none of the RC sport engine problems.  The setups are extremely consistent, all castor fuel, 10-5 or 10-6 prop, set needle, go fly.  The next step up without the amateur mechanic routine is an expensive custom engine, which most novice pilots aren't going to want to drive into the ground repeatedly. 

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2013, 04:02:27 PM »
How is the LA 46 so popular when it's an $85 engine that doesn't work right out of the box?  You've got a garbage plastic backplate, politically correct but nearly universally hated remote needlevalve, boat anchor R/C muffler, and Japanese spec screws, all are headaches.  After you spend $15 on a normal needlevalve, and more on a real backplate, screws, and a reasonable muffler, is the LA 46 still such a great deal?  Is it acceptable to expect a novice to buy specialized tools, and rebuild a brand new engine to make it run right?  From browsing the LA 46 setup thread, it's clear that no two people are running their LA 46 the same way.  There's no consistency, props, needle valves, venturis, backplates, heads (stock, hemi, relieved), head gaskets, etc.  So now in addition to amateur mechanic, we expect the novice to sort through all the variations and pick one to make work.  Is it any wonder electrics are gaining popularity?  I understand how this becomes normal for those who like to constantly tinker, but I think as a group we tend to forget that for a novice it's a bit overwhelming to just build the plane and make it fly, much less getting it trimmed, learning to tune the needlevalve, etc without getting into the standard procedure of trying to make an LA 46 work. 

I'd run a Fox 35, or a Max-S 35.  Both are lighter, so you can build the plane to plan, and they generate the appropriate 4-2-4 stunt run.  Both work right out of the box, with all the stock parts, and none of the RC sport engine problems.  The setups are extremely consistent, all castor fuel, 10-5 or 10-6 prop, set needle, go fly.  The next step up without the amateur mechanic routine is an expensive custom engine, which most novice pilots aren't going to want to drive into the ground repeatedly. 

Andrew,
I don't know what you've been smoking but...almost none of the things you mentioned are really necessary for the LA46 to be the best inexpensive stunt engine in existence.
The stock needle valve and back cover work fine...using silicone on the back cover is just insurance. and is something that does not require special tools to apply.
Even if the needle valve is changed it's still the least expensive good stunt engine by about $100. 
I agree that it's probably not the very best choice for the installation in question because of the weight and said so.
However to fault the engine, in general, for that is nonsense.
Most of the modifications you mentioned are done by expert (or people who want to be expert) fliers and are not necessary at all for good engine runs.
Incidentally all of the other engines you mentioned need serious modification to give good service life and have no where close to the power or ease of handling that the OS LA46 does.  I've seen stock LA46's successfully fly 640 sq in airplanes in the high 50 oz range...try that with a Fox 35 or OS 35S.
Why do you think so many folks think so highly of them and use them so much...
Also I would mention that I have several highly modified Fox 35's and OS35S's that each cost more than two LA46's.  They run good but won't give the service or fly the wide range of airplanes that the LA46 does.
I see very few if any Fox 35's flying that are stock most that run competitively have a couple hundred dollars worth of professional modifications and even then are marginal.

'Nuff said!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline david beazley

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2013, 04:27:58 PM »
Many simply replace the back plate with an aluminum one from member Curtis Shipp. 
Bill
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Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2013, 04:31:58 PM »
If the backplate and needlevalve are just fine, explain why they always come up whenever the LA46 is discussed?  Are the backplate screws not JIS screws just like all the other screws on the engine?  I'd consider a JIS screwdriver a "special tool".

Last I checked the real "experts" buy a PA or ROJett and run them by the book.  I don't see a problem with experts futzing with the LA46 anyway, my point was that the average novice has enough problems to deal with.  Why is it so typical for an expert to buy an engine that requires no fiddling, yet we're so quick to recommend the $100 box of headaches for the novice?

I don't know how you figure that Fox 35s or the 35S have a limited service life.  I buy stock Fox 35s and OS 35s off Ebay, do simple clean up, and 9 out of 10 of them run just fine.  Not like they need to last a lifetime for a Novice, since the engine will outlive the plane anyway.  The power isn't really applicable here, since we're talking about an Oriental, not a 640sq 60oz monster.  The older engines don't require modifications either, people modify them for various reasons that usually amount to trying to force the engine into a role it's not suited to fill.  Fortunately, most entry/mid level models don't require monster power, but they can benefit from an engine that runs consistently.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2013, 07:07:08 PM »
It's Andrew. Again. Cool it Andrew. You dig Foxes and OS35s and make them work. But there are other power choices that are effective. People are talking about what they have seen with their "lying eyes." Which means. People are sharing their experience. Not blowing smoke.

We run Foxes in our club. Lots of them. They are often labor intensive engine kits. Frequently need piston lapping, front bushings and so forth to replace the miss aligned or worn. Not always. But I've seen plenty needing help. Dan Banjok is kept busy doing tasks like this gratis or quid pro Coke. (Keep buying Dan Cokes. Or steak sandwiches.) The flat paddle Fox needle different. Eccentric to adjust. The muffler ears on old Foxes break off in a mild crash. Not fun for beginners. The very old Foxes have no ears. A challenge and an expense on which to hang a muffler. Not to mention the need to use care when cinching up the muffler strap, because the thin casting is easily tweaked, causing a problem for the piston liner fit. As for OS35s, an antique for which parts are no longer made. Including the fat needle valve discontinued by OS nearly 30 years ago. These engines are almost always sold without mufflers. A muffler for these is not cheap and needs a strap. At least every OS 35s I've seen has needed a strap. Cast iron piston, steel liner, are prone to damage with an over lean run. The LA46s nickel/aluminum p/l expand and go back to normal in the same situation. Much more modern setup. As for PAs and the like. They might seem plug and play for the Expert who has been at it for 30 years. Especially when they choose to forget their elaborate and complicated learning curve. I have gone to many contests and seen $600 worth of engine and pipe running away or in other ways acting funky. Dan and I just had a chat about all that goes into getting the expensive stuff to work. Suffice to say that Dan spent quite a few weekends with Windy getting his first piped motor to work in compliment with his Mustang stunter.

The OS35s and the Fox big advantage for an Oriental is their light weight. Buy a Brodak 40, if you can find one. Similar in price, far superior design, parts are available, same weight as a Fox or a 35s. The LAs are heavier. Usually need some tail weight. LA40s, Ken and Shawn Cooke fly one of these in an Oriental. Shawn has no trouble cleaning up in Advanced in local contests flying this bird. LA46s like to run a big prop. This might create some issues with this Oriental.

I will mention, in passing, that I run FP40s and Tower 40s in stunt. Flew my cheater Magician off the L-Pad in 2012. Engine run, as usual, very good, complimented my plane. The judge, who did not know me, kept asking what engine is that guy running. I am an Intermediate level flyer. But, like I said, flew off the L-pad in Advanced. The engine worked fine.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2013, 07:21:10 PM »
Yeah. I bought some JIS screw drivers. Wound up using my trusty fat American approximate in a Phillips star. It'll flatten out the JIS screw and get a grip. Frozen JIS strip the screw head out same as Phillips. Phillips is the next size up. Shazam. Those been-in-there-forever carb mount screws in particular need more muscle than brains and sophistication.

As far as cheap cheap bargain engines go, I have paid as little as $20 for a swap meet LA46 with great compression. Ran that on a stunt plane for a couple of seasons. Still works well. $40 RC 46s can be commonly had. Like all used engines in my experience. Some deals are great. Sometimes not.

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2013, 07:23:42 PM »
Do I really need to cool it when every time I share my experiences, someone asks what I've been smoking?  Really?   LL~

I asked valid questions.  Why is an LA 46 a screaming deal at $85, when the popular opinion is that it needs additional parts to be fixed right out of the box?  Should a novice flyer have to order a special screwdriver and custom parts to fix a brand new engine?  No one can answer that, except to deny that it's a problem, and to change the subject or take my comments out of the context of the thread.  

As for the rest of your comments, Dennis, I addressed most of your problems with the 35S in the last thread.  Obviously you didn't read my reply last time, or you'd already know the solutions to those problems, therefore I won't waste my time addressing them this time around.  Thanks anyway.  ::)

steven yampolsky

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2013, 07:31:32 PM »
It's Andrew. Again. Cool it Andrew. You dig Foxes and OS35s and make them work. But there are other power choices that are effective. People are talking about what they have seen with their "lying eyes." Which means. People are sharing their experience. Not blowing smoke.

I would tend to agree with Dennis. 46LA is not cheap(need to add ~$10 for a backplate, ~$30 for a normal tube muffler, ~$15 for a NVA and ventury). Even after you fix the initial problems, the motor works with a very small range of props. It is not a beginner's motor. One is MUCH better off with a stunt motor like Brodak 40 for a starter motor, especially for a model like Oriental or a Nobler. LA's are just too heavy for models designed for a Fox 35. I am yet to see a good flying Nobler or Oriental powered by an OS LA motor that didn't have led bricks loaded up in the tail. That tail weight COMPLETELY negates the benefits of a good LA.

This comes from my OWN experience. I've ran 46LA with good success, especially in modern profiles like the Pathfinder or MoBest. These designs really bring out the best 46LA can offer!

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2013, 07:36:20 PM »
If the backplate and needlevalve are just fine, explain why they always come up whenever the LA46 is discussed?  Are the backplate screws not JIS screws just like all the other screws on the engine?  I'd consider a JIS screwdriver a "special tool".


Andrew,
I'm through trying to convince you of anything...obviously not a possible task.
I will correct another of your mistakes however.  You said  "Are the backplate screws not JIS screws just like all the other screws on the engine?  I'd consider a JIS screwdriver a "special tool"".
 The answer to your question is Yes they are not JIS Screws.  The Japanese industry has not used the JIS standard for nearly 30 years.  They are ISO standard metric...and ISO standard metric tools available at any Walmart...Ace Hardware etc will work.  Not to mention that OS engines come with a standard metric allen wrench in the box.

In other words...Phooey!!!!

Go fly a FOX!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2013, 07:52:39 PM »
 n~ Oh! You got me!  n~  That's what I get for assuming something I've read multiple times on this very forum is accurate.  Even so, I would never sully my tool box with the likes of Walmart and Ace Hardware tools! 

But why would an engine without a single socket head cap screw have a metric allen wrench in the box?   I didn't see an allen wrench in the box with my LA 40, and my 46s were both obtained second hand.  Are we still talking about LAs?   

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2013, 10:00:08 PM »
Note: OS35s either need a strap on muffler or, if it is a later model, the bosses adjacent to the exhaust need to be drilled and tapped. Maybe you can find a light weight stock OS35s muffler. A Jetstream. That will then fit these drilled and tapped holes. Certainly not stock in any mail order house. A beginner's engine? Besides, anyone you buy will be a used engine, subject to all those variables. Will a beginner be able to realize if a the rod is ovalled or piston nearly fried or the thirty year old needlevalve isn't aligned right or, maybe, worn and leaking. Will the beginner free up a stock old engine properly, using some heat from a heat gun and air tool oil, or will the beginner just pull on the stock prop until, finally, the piston pops frees after damaging the weak non-bushed conrod. As far as Foxes go. Dan Banjok recently purchased a brand new 60th anniversary. Noticeable off center front bushing. Sent it back. New one the same. Dan would up drilling out the bushing, shrink fitting a new one into place, accurately reaming to fit the crank. Then he lapped in the piston. A beginner's engine? Like I said. Lots of folks in my club run Foxes. Out of nostalgia. Mebbe. But please. In my experience. These are not beginner's engines much of the time.

Most Orientals I have seen recently use a version of an LA or a Brodak 40. The LAs need a couple of ounces in the tail. I have seen a few work with Foxes. OS35s are few and far between. Pristine 35s (one's that look pristine anyway in the classified pics, crock pot specials many of them) go for good money. A beginner's engine? Mebbe. If you luck out. Besides. An Oriental is certainly not a beginners airplane. Trimming issues on any full stunt plane almost always need experienced help. Beginners are better served by simpler build or ARF.



Offline Mike Callas

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2013, 11:37:07 PM »
David,
Curtis Shipp
Po Bx 1255
Gardendale, AL 35071
His e-mail should be on this site or the other Hans Rudel forum.
I bought 2 backplates from him and he ships real fast. Fits perfect.
I have a Brodak 40 in my Oriental and it flies great. I also have a couple of LA 46, one in my Pathfinder (great combo).
The Brodak is nice and light. I believe the Oriental came out around 44 oz. After breaking in on a bench it does a real nice 4-2-4 run. Still, the LA 46 just keeps going and going, sloppy 2 stroke, nice stream of smoke pouring out.
You probably do not need to modify the LA 46 and it will run fine. You can leave the stock backplate and bum an OS 25 needle from a friend at the field. The LA 46 may as well be made be Sara Lee.
But, just to be a jerk, I have also had good luck with the EVO 36 using RC fuel 18% synthetic. And it comes with a tongue muffler and 3 venturis (but I only use one at a time).
And if you think I'm smoking something, you are right-Magna, or CAO Brazillas (an Ashton VSG when I can afford one).

Mike

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2013, 12:47:19 AM »
Note: OS35s either need a strap on muffler or, if it is a later model, the bosses adjacent to the exhaust need to be drilled and tapped. Maybe you can find a light weight stock OS35s muffler. A Jetstream. That will then fit these drilled and tapped holes. Certainly not stock in any mail order house. A beginner's engine? Besides, anyone you buy will be a used engine, subject to all those variables. Will a beginner be able to realize if a the rod is ovalled or piston nearly fried or the thirty year old needlevalve isn't aligned right or, maybe, worn and leaking. Will the beginner free up a stock old engine properly, using some heat from a heat gun and air tool oil, or will the beginner just pull on the stock prop until, finally, the piston pops frees after damaging the weak non-bushed conrod. As far as Foxes go. Dan Banjok recently purchased a brand new 60th anniversary. Noticeable off center front bushing. Sent it back. New one the same. Dan would up drilling out the bushing, shrink fitting a new one into place, accurately reaming to fit the crank. Then he lapped in the piston. A beginner's engine? Like I said. Lots of folks in my club run Foxes. Out of nostalgia. Mebbe. But please. In my experience. These are not beginner's engines much of the time.

Most Orientals I have seen recently use a version of an LA or a Brodak 40. The LAs need a couple of ounces in the tail. I have seen a few work with Foxes. OS35s are few and far between. Pristine 35s (one's that look pristine anyway in the classified pics, crock pot specials many of them) go for good money. A beginner's engine? Mebbe. If you luck out. Besides. An Oriental is certainly not a beginners airplane. Trimming issues on any full stunt plane almost always need experienced help. Beginners are better served by simpler build or ARF.

As I said earlier Dennis, I addressed almost all of those concerns the last time the 35S topic came up.  I'm not going to waste my time again, when you clearly have no intention of even looking into the solutions I provided for you.  Unlike your comments intended to pester me, I've actually bought and tried the engines I post comments about.  I don't drop names, and talk about other people's experiences with an engine, I relate my own experiences and impressions of those engines, first hand accounts.  I voiced my view point, and I get attacked, dismissed, accused of blowing smoke, and dragged into a hundred tangent debates that have nothing to do with the topic. 

If the Oriental isn't a simple build, and an ideal model for a novice getting into stunt, I don't know what is.  Box fuselage, a 1/2" and 1/4" plank top and bottom blocks, 1/4" sheet tail surfaces, straight chord wing, fuselage mounted gear and a bubble canopy, how much easier could you ask for?  A flapped profile might be marginally easier to build, but the Oriental isn't by any means difficult.     

Offline REX1945

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 01:50:17 AM »
Sheldon,

      I've had 2 Orientals; one with a Foz .40 and one with a Saito .40.

      With both engines, the flew better with a shorter nose, since it was designed
 before the age of the muffler and, (yes Verginia the Fox .35 is a light engine).
The Fox plane required about an ounce of tail weight even with a shorter nose.

       My second plane had not only the nose shotened, but also a 3/4" Fox prop
extension (about the only Fox hhardware I use).  The 4 stroke  Saito was mounted
inverted. It flew fairly well until I hit a Canada goose. The goose won. It weighed
40 Oz with an APC prop. If I had one today, it would have an XOAR wood prop and
be 1 Oz lighter as a result.

I made the wing tips a lot simpler than the Brodak carved tips. I also made my own
adjustable leadouts, since the ones in the first kit didn't work well and the ones in
the second kit were missing parts.



   Also, use an arrrowshaft for the elevator pushrod and throw away the coupler that
Brodak expects you to soft solder (It doesn't take solder).    

   A much better flying plane is the Strathmoor and RSM has the parts to kit it for you.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 02:10:08 AM by REX1945 »

steven yampolsky

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2013, 02:48:01 AM »
One point to contemplate: moving the wing forward or shortening the nose will preclude you from participating in a whole category of fun contests: Classic.

I do not recommend modifying geometry when building a classic design just to accommodate a modern/heavy motor. If you want to fly with an OS 46LA, build a modern design such as MoBest or Vector 46. If you want to fly a classic design, try to keep it close to original. Both approaches will result in a LOT more fun and utility.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2013, 05:26:35 AM »
Andrew, I lifted your quote about OS35s(es). You said drill out the bosses and tap. Find a Jetstream muffler. No easy task for those starting out. Most beginners do stunt with a profile. ARF Streaks for instance which mate up very well with an LA25. New plus new. Off the shelf. Cheap as you can get. Or that Sig profile with no flaps, Skyray. Then there is the world of the Twister. And the Fancherized Twister. The fellow originating this thread will sift through. Figure out what's best. After years of buying stuff on the 'bay and other mail order classifieds and swaps, careful as I can be, I still get had every now and then. There's another element also. There's running and RUNNING when it comes to our 2 and 4 stroke noise and grease makers. Lots of engines will pull a plane around. Very different to get it to compliment a tethered birdy doing the figures. A used engine of dubious origin complicates the process.

In the northeast where I live the temps in the 20s today. My back is OUT. Having spent a delightful Dec 31st getting old Enyas to crank up and spit fire. I saw a square venturi 35 turn within an eyelash of 15,000 on a 9x6. Fun! Even tho my back is OUT because of the recreation. We definitely don't want to get into a sidebar about Enyas. Well. Mebbe. Peace.



Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2013, 08:18:35 AM »
I see the new year is starting out as usual.   Everybody has an opinion about engines/motors.   What works for one may not work for the other.  I am a cheap skate at times.   So most of my engines are box stock.  Oh I have replaced the carb with a needle valve and venturi on my LA engines.   My Fox's I just run them.   I guess that is why Andrew keeps beating me in  contests as well as the other guys that I compete with.   Really Andrew has improved in his flying.   Myself I don't fly enough.  By the way that LA .46 box stock was flying the P-39 at 69 ounces with no effort using a Zingr 11-5 prop on Excaliber 10% fuel 22% oil(1/2 & 1/2).   It's just the pilot got disoriented and let the plane go striaght into to tarmac on circle one in Tuscon. 
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline phil c

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2013, 09:50:13 AM »
I would tend to agree with Dennis. 46LA is not cheap(need to add ~$10 for a backplate, ~$30 for a normal tube muffler, ~$15 for a NVA and ventury). Even after you fix the initial problems, the motor works with a very small range of props. It is not a beginner's motor. One is MUCH better off with a stunt motor like Brodak 40 for a starter motor, especially for a model like Oriental or a Nobler. LA's are just too heavy for models designed for a Fox 35. I am yet to see a good flying Nobler or Oriental powered by an OS LA motor that didn't have led bricks loaded up in the tail. That tail weight COMPLETELY negates the benefits of a good LA.

This comes from my OWN experience. I've ran 46LA with good success, especially in modern profiles like the Pathfinder or MoBest. These designs really bring out the best 46LA can offer!

My experience with the LA engines is a bit different than yours.  The 46 is still available with a venturi and needle valve  O.S. 46LA-S for the same price as the RC version.  I put it in a plane and ran it stock, with the remote needle valve and had no problems.  I put a venturi and NVA in an LA 40, bolted it into a Brodak Original Smoothie(very similar to the Oriental) set up for the Brodak 40.  Evidently I built the stab a bit heavy, because the model weighs 39 oz. using the stock muffler.  The Brodak needed an ounce or more of noseweight.

The "trick" to getting both of these engines is similar to FP20 setup.  Stock muffler, pick the appropriate venturi(they came in different sizes, but the current 46 one works pretty well) and run a low pitch, light load prop.  I use a wood 10/4.  The motor runs in a 4 cycle at around 11,000+ rpm.  With a smallish plane like the Oriental or the Smoothie that is gobs of controllable power.  The low pitch prop lets the motor run right in the middle of its power band so there is no chance of it running away.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to Sheldon, but since he has a couple Fox 35's already that would be the easiest choice, assuming they are in good running order.
phil Cartier

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2013, 10:20:17 AM »
Andrew, I lifted your quote about OS35s(es). You said drill out the bosses and tap. Find a Jetstream muffler. No easy task for those starting out.

But Dennis, you misunderstood and you're taking my reply out of it's original context.  You said the OS 35S wasn't designed for, wouldn't run well with, or wasn't sold with a muffler.  The truth is that it may not have been designed to run with a muffler, but OS had a bolt on accessory muffler (sold separately), then later they came with a strap on muffler, and they run fine on a muffler.  The early Jetstream muffler can be a little difficult to find, but it doesn't matter since there are plenty of aftermarket mufflers that bolt on after drilling the exhaust stack. Brodak and RSM both carry them, and I'm sure there are others.  There's no tapping required to run those mufflers, and drilling through a soft aluminum exhaust stack is no more difficult than drilling straight holes through maple motor mounts, so it's really well within the skill set of most modelers.  

The other part you missed is that I never suggested the OS 35S or the Fox 35 are ideal engines for beginners.  I just said that the LA 46 isn't either.  It's the only engine kit that currently gets hype.  I've seen and heard a few that really run well.  So far I haven't had any luck with mine.  Maybe I was trying the wrong prop, wrong muffler, wrong # of head gaskets, wrong needlevalve, etc.  But it's counterproductive to my goals to spend my time at the field reconfiguring an engine when I could be flying and practicing.  If it's bad for me, how is it good for someone who is at a lower skill level?  The ideal engine is one that requires virtually nothing, has a clear and simple setup, and runs consistently time after time.  To me the LA 46 doesn't fit those requirements.


Offline Joseph Lijoi

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2013, 11:12:14 AM »
Hi everyone,
     With all of the great responses and feedbacks to various questions that people have asked, I figured that I would post on of my own.
      I've currently got a full fuselage Brodak Oriental on the building boards and I'm quickly approaching the stage to where I have to drill the holes for the engine mounting. The requirements on the kit itself call for a .35 to .40 engine. I have a couple of Fox .35 engines kicking around the shop, but I don't know if that will be ample power to haul the model around.
      The kit will be finished with Sig Koverall ( I love working with this stuff ), and butyrate dope. I fly strictly for fun so, blazing performance is not required. Any suggestions as to engine size or brand would be greatly appreciated.
                                                                                     Thanks Again,
                                                                                         Sheldon

Sheldon the Fox 35 is ample power for 1962.  If you build light and fly on short lines then it will be enough for fun flying, but to me there is nothing fun about Fox 35's.  I like the Evo 36, mainly because it runs well on RC fuel.  An FP or LA 25 will put out more power than the Fox and vibrates much less.  It is about the same mass as the Fox.  IMO well broken in modern engines running flat props are more reliable, powerful and easy to tune.  Good luck.


Offline Bill Heher

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2013, 11:51:12 AM »
i'm no expert, and never had the flying skill to arrant a big $$ stunt motor. I do have multiple examples of the engines at the coreofthis thread, fox .35s. OS S35, FP 35-S, FP 40, LA 40, LA 46. I have also flown various Orientalswith most of the engines listed. I have had Brodak ARFs, a kit built, a profile, and flown themallrepaired  / heavy.

I feel the OS FP.35-S is a prety goodmatch for an Oriental, smoother and a bit more ooomph than a tock Fox 35 Stunt, easy on fuel so fitting a big enough tank is no head-ache, and fairly eay to get at swaps and on-line.

i agree that the LA .46 is a great runniing,fuel siping, reliable easy tous engine, but you don't need that much motor in a plane designed fo3 Fox35sand other old school / baffle piston engines.
Bill Heher
Central Florida and across the USA!
If it's broke Fix-it
If it ain't broke- let me see it for a minute AMA 264898- since 1988!

Offline De Hill

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2013, 01:50:44 PM »
I am amused by the remarks made by the anti-Fox crowd.

Foxes work well and are inexpensive to acquire from swap meets and ebay. They won a whole lot of AMA National stunt championships back in the classic era.

The Oriental was designed for the Fox .35.  So was the Nobler, the Ares, and many other of the classic stunters.

The majority of the controline flyers today are SPORT flyers, not competiton flyers, and Foxes work fine for them.
De Hill

steven yampolsky

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Re: Engine for Oriental build
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2013, 01:58:36 PM »
My experience with the LA engines is a bit different than yours.  The 46 is still available with a venturi and needle valve  O.S. 46LA-S for the same price as the RC version.  I put it in a plane and ran it stock, with the remote needle valve and had no problems.  I put a venturi and NVA in an LA 40, bolted it into a Brodak Original Smoothie(very similar to the Oriental) set up for the Brodak 40.  Evidently I built the stab a bit heavy, because the model weighs 39 oz. using the stock muffler.  The Brodak needed an ounce or more of noseweight.

The "trick" to getting both of these engines is similar to FP20 setup.  Stock muffler, pick the appropriate venturi(they came in different sizes, but the current 46 one works pretty well) and run a low pitch, light load prop.  I use a wood 10/4.  The motor runs in a 4 cycle at around 11,000+ rpm.  With a smallish plane like the Oriental or the Smoothie that is gobs of controllable power.  The low pitch prop lets the motor run right in the middle of its power band so there is no chance of it running away.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to Sheldon, but since he has a couple Fox 35's already that would be the easiest choice, assuming they are in good running order.

Phil, I agree about the run setup. I like the circumcised APC 12.25x3.75 with 46LA's. That setup pulled a super heavy Pathfinder(54oz) like it didn't know there was an airplane attached to it! That said, my experiences do lead me to believe that this is not as simple as plug-n-play. I've owned two 46LA's(I have no experience with 40LA's) and all issues were found on the first one. The second one was done "right" from start and worked very well. Here's what I experienced:
1) The motor had erratic runs which turned out to be a loose backplate. After tightening, the backplate cracked after several flights. After replacing it with a regular backplate, I've never had issues with backplate getting loose or cracking. Until I had to test emergency braking procedures by running into my flightbox on landing. The muffler broke off along with the a chunk of the crankcase...   HB~> Thus the need for motor #2
2) I experienced difficulty setting proper launch RPM's with remote NVS. The RPM's response to needle adjustments was so slow, it would take FOREVER to get the needle setting. Switching to direct FP style NVA setup fixed the issue. Motor #2 inherited this setup and I had nothing bug good runs(assuming proper prop and RPM setup).

46LA is like a Fox 35: both are good, inexpensive motors that require a number of bolt on "upgrades" to make them run right. This is the reason I do not recommend these motors to beginners.

Steve

P.S. 46LA are not longer available in CL form. RC only.


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