Engine for Oriental build

[Larry Fernandez]

I am amused by the remarks made by the anti-Fox crowd.

Foxes work well and are inexpensive to acquire from swap meets and ebay. They won a whole lot of AMA National stunt championships back in the classic era.

Very true.
And flat head Fords kicked ass in their era.
However I have'nt seen too many flat head Fords running at NASCAR or NHRA lately.
Time moves on - and so does technology

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[De Hill]

Very true.
And flat head Fords kicked ass in their era.
However I have'nt seen too many flat head Fords running at NASCAR or NHRA lately.
Time moves on - and so does technology

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

You removed some of my post, so I will repeat it here.

The VAST majority of the controline flyers today are SPORT flyers.

Foxes will work well for them.

[Joseph Lijoi]

Phil, I agree about the run setup. I like the circumcised APC 12.25x3.75 with 46LA's. That setup pulled a super heavy Pathfinder(54oz) like it didn't know there was an airplane attached to it! That said, my experiences do lead me to believe that this is not as simple as plug-n-play. I've owned two 46LA's(I have no experience with 40LA's) and all issues were found on the first one. The second one was done "right" from start and worked very well. Here's what I experienced:
1) The motor had erratic runs which turned out to be a loose backplate. After tightening, the backplate cracked after several flights. After replacing it with a regular backplate, I've never had issues with backplate getting loose or cracking. Until I had to test emergency braking procedures by running into my flightbox on landing. The muffler broke off along with the a chunk of the crankcase...    Thus the need for motor #2
2) I experienced difficulty setting proper launch RPM's with remote NVS. The RPM's response to needle adjustments was so slow, it would take FOREVER to get the needle setting. Switching to direct FP style NVA setup fixed the issue. Motor #2 inherited this setup and I had nothing bug good runs(assuming proper prop and RPM setup).

46LA is like a Fox 35: both are good, inexpensive motors that require a number of bolt on "upgrades" to make them run right. This is the reason I do not recommend these motors to beginners.

Steve

P.S. 46LA are not longer available in CL form. RC only.

What do you recommend for a beginner?  Tower Hobbies lists both the 46 and 25 LA as in stock, so they should be available in your local hobby shop,

[john e. holliday]

As De says, Fox's work well once you learn how to run them.   I always told the guys at the R/C field anybody can run the foreign engines, but not everybody knows how to  make a Fox run.   Mainly they don't read the instructions.

[Andrew Hathaway]

The Fox 35 doesn't "require" any add on parts to work right, some people just don't know how to run them, they over-prime or under-prime, or they put them on a plane that's too big or too heavy, or they expect all the aftermarket bolt-ons to turn the engine into something it's not.  They still work as well as they always did, and if you work within those limitations you'll be happy with a Fox 35.  I've got at least three planes with stock second hand Fox 35s, they start on the first or second flip, and I only have to adjust the needle valve about a 1/4 turn every few months to deal with weather changes.  Otherwise they run the same day in and day out for hundreds of flights.  I've got several of the hi tech hop-up parts in my spare parts bin, but all the Fox 35s I actually use are stock down to the needle valve.

[Dennis Moritz]

Yep. The folks in my club run their Foxes stock. Also run them fast and run them with more break. Could be that old Foxes, used Foxes, are more reliable in general than brand new engines, that have not been run. Issues with Foxes, such as over tight piston clearance, or poorly machined bushings are evident out of the box. If the engines are used these problems were not there or have been overcome. I never got into Foxes instead I got into FP40s, Tower 40s and LA46s. Learned their ways. In my club Foxes get used in Old Time and on sport planes like Ringmasters. At times the interests overlap. Often the Fox 35 powered Ringmasters that compete in Old Time do very well. One Oriental, powered by a stock Fox 35, is very competitive in PAMPA. Mike Palko used a Fox 35 powered Twister in competition all the way into Expert. That's Mike. In our club PAMPA war wagons are, in general, powered by something other than Fox 35s. LA engines are common. FPs. Towers. Some use Suptertigre 46s and 60s. PAs, Ro-jetts for the very serious. And. Electric. Electric is gaining in popularity for many reasons.

[Steve Helmick]

I recently saw a 60th Anniversary Fox .35 Stunt. They got the muffler mountings figured out, and it only took 60 years! 

IMO, the real problem with buying a Fox .35 is that of finding suitable fuel without paying buku bucks for Hazmat freight. It's not hard to buy fuel that will keep a .46LA happy, at least with the addition of a cuppa castor. Well, that, and I hate to bench run engines. One run on the ground and if everything seems stable, I'll fly a .25LA, .46LA or Magnum .36 on the 2nd tank. I would not do that with a spendy engine, however.  Steve

[Randy Cuberly]

The Fox 35 doesn't "require" any add on parts to work right, some people just don't know how to run them, they over-prime or under-prime, or they put them on a plane that's too big or too heavy, or they expect all the aftermarket bolt-ons to turn the engine into something it's not.  They still work as well as they always did, and if you work within those limitations you'll be happy with a Fox 35.

Exactly...that's why most folks have switched to something else for the last 40 years or so!!!

Name someone who is flying and winning anything with a stock Fox 35...Tough isn't it.  Hmmmmm I remember using Fox 35's when there really wasn't any other choice...all kinds of mods and 30+% nitro to get any power in the wind.  Whip the plane like crazy for two laps to get through the reverse wingover...pull the handle practically to the ground in the overheads to maintain line tension...oh yeah they wer really good and fun fun fun.
They are probably OK for sport fliers that don't have to fly at the mercy of the weather but just OK...why hassel with one when so much is available that is so much better.

I'm curious to know Andrew what class do you fly in for stunt that you're so full of all this wonderful information?

When expert fliers don't use something it's for a good reason...get out of 1960 there's a better world now (at least where engines are concerned).

Randy Cuberly

[De Hill]

Hi Randy,

The original question was: Engine for Oriental build.

Doesn't it depend on the skill level of the Oriental builder? If he is a competitor he certainly would use a modern engine.

If he is a sport flyer a Fox .35 would work fine; after all, the Oriental was designed for a Fox .35.

[Phil Bare]

< Hmmmmm I remember using Fox 35's when there really wasn't any other choice...>

Randy, I am really curious about a time period when Fox was the only engine manufacturer in the game?

In my collection, I have K&B green heads, three bolt Torpedos, Forsters, O&Rs, Johnsons, Vecos, McCoy Sportsmans, McCoy Red Heads and a few others that were manufactured concurently with my Foxes.  All of them will fly most any airplane designed for a .35 size engine. Of the above list, the only one still being made is the Fox.35S
I was at a meet last summer and saw a fellow flying an Ares (I think, maybe a Nobler) with a box stock Fox .35 Stunt and he put up a very competative flight, the old Fox was black from the burnt on castor yet it started and ran as well as any engine at that meet.

I have many, many engines and they all are fascinating and fun. The Fox .35 S will do a fine job in an Oriental as well as many other planes designed for a .35 size engine as will all the others that I mentioned.

[Phil Bare]

<The original question was: Engine for Oriental build.>

De, Your answer: The Oriental was designed for a Fox.35 : Makes the most sense to me, but then, I am just a sport flyer and I have only been messing with model airplanes for not quite 60 years now, so what do I know..
I can tell you that my Oriental flys fine with an old box stock Fox .35  Stunt on it. I am sure that it would fly just as well with any number of other engines also. I do think that an LA.46 would call for the Oriental plans to be enlarged by about 20% or so.

[Andrew Hathaway]

Exactly...that's why most folks have switched to something else for the last 40 years or so!!!

Name someone who is flying and winning anything with a stock Fox 35...Tough isn't it.  Hmmmmm I remember using Fox 35's when there really wasn't any other choice...all kinds of mods and 30+% nitro to get any power in the wind.  Whip the plane like crazy for two laps to get through the reverse wingover...pull the handle practically to the ground in the overheads to maintain line tension...oh yeah they wer really good and fun fun fun.
They are probably OK for sport fliers that don't have to fly at the mercy of the weather but just OK...why hassel with one when so much is available that is so much better.

Are we talking about flying and winning with a Fox 35?  Or were we talking about flying an Oriental?  I'm pretty sure my statement was that I'd use a Fox 35 or an OS 35S, and then later I stated they have limitations, but they can still work just fine keeping those limitations in mind.  However this is still a thread about an Oriental, not some 650sq in. overweight pig you tried to fly at the nats in 1982.  
 

I'm curious to know Andrew what class do you fly in for stunt that you're so full of all this wonderful information?

Well I guess you could do a few searches for contest results, or flip through the Stunt News archives and likely satisfy your curiosity.  But that won't really validate or invalidate my statements about the Fox.

When expert fliers don't use something it's for a good reason...get out of 1960 there's a better world now (at least where engines are concerned).

Randy Cuberly

Again, I thought we were talking about an Oriental.  And isn't Allen Brickhaus an expert flyer that just posted pics of his recent Oriental with a Fox 35 on the previous page?  

[Ted Fancher]

My Oriental finished is 43.8 ounces with a Fox 35.

Allen,

That may be my favorite Brickhaus paint scheme ever.  Just beautiful!

Happy New Year.

Ted

[Dennis Moritz]

Allen's flying an L and J Fox 35. Crank 49$, stuffer backplate...$, hemi-head...$, L and J fitting of piston/cylinder (I guess) if needed. That costs out near $200. Does Allen's choice of a "custom modded" Fox 35 support Andrew's opinion or do the opposite? Look, I've seen at least one stock Fox 35 fly an Oriental well. But if your criteria is price, performance, ease of setup, suitability for a less experienced flier, and so on, for reasons already stated, many of us would prefer different power. I loved OS35s(es) in the early 70s. Very user friendly. Flying with a few fellows who, like myself, were not that knowledgeable, I dug the way they started right up, needled easily. Very nice power for my Buster, kept lit pretty well as we looped, flew inverted. No scary burp doing outsides (how do you handle that Andrew, by the by.) When the intensity of other worlds in which I lived dominated, I dropped out from our hobby. For 30 plus years. Coming back in, needing a rest and retreat from "getting and spending" and what not, I took our subject up again. This time lucking out, finding a club of great guys who somehow were still dedicated to this old fashioned flying of tethered planes. First off I went with my OS35s, guess what, it was gummed up, compression somehow not that good, after it got freed, the one I bought off ebay, not much better. Rod click, I figured out what that meant. My Fox 35, of 1960s vintage, bolted up to my old Buster, did this scary blatt blatt blaaaatttt, doing outsides. When a friend needed his bolt on muffler back, I started to work with FPs, LAs and their ilk. Definitely easier for me to make work. The increase in power, the availability of new engines and parts, clinched my choice.

[Grady Widener]

Were it up to me, I'd use a Thunder Tiger 42 with lowered sleeve, home made 1/32 head gasket, ST needle and custom turned 9/32 x 14° included Delrin venturi with a stocking on it.

[Randy Cuberly]

Are we talking about flying and winning with a Fox 35?  Or were we talking about flying an Oriental?  I'm pretty sure my statement was that I'd use a Fox 35 or an OS 35S, and then later I stated they have limitations, but they can still work just fine keeping those limitations in mind.  However this is still a thread about an Oriental, not some 650sq in. overweight pig you tried to fly at the nats in 1982.  
 
Well I guess you could do a few searches for contest results, or flip through the Stunt News archives and likely satisfy your curiosity.  But that won't really validate or invalidate my statements about the Fox.

Again, I thought we were talking about an Oriental.  And isn't Allen Brickhaus an expert flyer that just posted pics of his recent Oriental with a Fox 35 on the previous page?  

Andrew,
You're hopeless and I'm wasting my time...
I did want to mention that my over "weight pigs" that I was talking about were mostly 36- to 38 oz Noblers that really didn't require a lot of HP...but the Foxes still had trouble flying them in wind.  Talk to any of the experts (which I am one) that flew in that era (not 1982, more like 1958-1961) and they will tell you pretty much the same thing I've described.  Flying stunt seriously is a lot easier today than then...mostly because of the improved power plants...in fact now that electric is here it's getting even easier.  Of course those of you that still prefer to do it the hard way because of Hard Heads are very free to do so.   America is still a free country (at least for a little while longer)?  

Randy C.

[Andrew Hathaway]

Andrew,
You're hopeless and I'm wasting my time...
I did want to mention that my over "weight pigs" that I was talking about were mostly 36- to 38 oz Noblers that really didn't require a lot of HP...but the Foxes still had trouble flying them in wind.  Talk to any of the experts (which I am one) that flew in that era (not 1982, more like 1958-1961) and they will tell you pretty much the same thing I've described.  Flying stunt seriously is a lot easier today than then...mostly because of the improved power plants...in fact now that electric is here it's getting even easier.  Of course those of you that still prefer to do it the hard way because of Hard Heads are very free to do so.   America is still a free country (at least for a little while longer)?  

Randy C.

Sorry Rambling Jack, but I've never made the claims you suggest I made.  I'll say it again since you seem to have a serious problem understanding context, or maybe it's just reading comprehension in general.  We're not talking about "SERIOUS stunt", we're talking about an Oriental.  We're not even talking about "flying them in the wind".  Don't put words into my mouth just because you misunderstand my statements.  You can't change my argument and then try to point out it's flaws, it doesn't work that way.  That's why you have to resort to something so petty as to attack the skill level I fly at, as though somehow that indicates how my engines run more than my flying ability, building ability, or simply my ability to actually attend contests.  So you're an "Expert", as though there is anything stopping anyone from entering expert.  In what way does that make you qualified to say that I'm wrong when I say what engine I'd use in a specific plane?  And what does America being a free country have to do with anything?     Seriously some of you crazy old farts need to get a grip.

[Dennis Moritz]

We've been reasonable. Showed empathy. Did a frontal attack. Spoken from personal experience using "I." Recommended by psychologists when attempting to ease conflict. A winter diversion.

[De Hill]

We've been reasonable. Showed empathy. Did a frontal attack. Spoken from personal experience using "I." Recommended by psychologists when attempting to ease conflict. A winter diversion.

Dennis,

Get a grip.

[Andrew Hathaway]

Actually you've done nothing more to substantiate your own opinions beyond claiming they're better because they're yours and more people agree with you.  All with a nice helping of condescension and outright insults and rude comments.  All of Randy's claims of superior knowledge of the topic, and a higher skill level are arguments I could use against you, Dennis, but I wouldn't stoop that low.  

[Randy Cuberly]

Actually you've done nothing more to substantiate your own opinions beyond claiming they're better because they're yours and more people agree with you.  All with a nice helping of condescension and outright insults and rude comments.  All of Randy's claims of superior knowledge of the topic, and a higher skill level are arguments I could use against you, Dennis, but I wouldn't stoop that low.  

Andrew,
They aren't just claims of superior knowledge they are fact.
I fully understand your writings I just don't understand your stubborn attitude of being the only one in the world that really understands how wonderful the old Fox really is...

My only question at this point is; Are you a lawyer?  That's the only thing I can think of that would begin to explain your complete refusal to listen to facts in the face of your much preferred opinions.

That's enough of this for me...I'm through.  Believe what you like.  As I said before It's a free country.

In other words...Go fly a kite... err uhhhh plane.   

Randy C.

[Andrew Hathaway]

What facts exactly Randy?  You have yet to present any argument that in any way invalidates my statements that I'd use a Fox 35 or an OS 35S in an Oriental, or that they work fine for me.  Everything you've argued has nothing to do with my statements.  I don't even know who you're trying to convince, since no one in this thread is talking about experts, serious stunt, Noblers, wind, or any of the other crap you've brought into the discussion trying to "win" the debate. 

For the record, in 2007 I took my own design stretched Flite Streak with a box stock Fox 35 to Sig as a backup plane.  I placed second in intermediate, I got beat by 17.5 points by a Magnum with a Supertigre 51.  The next day I flew the same plane, with the same box stock Fox 35 in P40.  I placed 9th in P40 behind six flyers who flew Expert in PAMPA, and ahead of 10 flyers who flew Advanced, including the 1st and 2nd place winners in that skill class.  These guys were flying the best profiles with whatever engine under a 40 they chose to run, and I beat them with the Flite Streak I built on my lap in 1994 with a box stock 40th Anniversary Fox 35.  I'd say my Foxes run pretty damn good.  I flew my Fox because I couldn't get the LA 40, FP 40, or FP 35 on my F-Twister to run right. 

In Oct 2008, I flew my Nobler with an OS 35S in Classic at the Tulsa Gluedobbers contest.  My final score was a 527, a shade under 10 points under Dale Gleeson who placed 2nd.  I believe you're probably familar with Dale, he beat you by 2.5pts in Classic at VSC last year.  Oh, and BTW I blew the exit of the cloverleaf and lost (at a minimum) my landing and pattern points.  In addition, I frequently beat the local experts in events without skill classes.  I regularly break 500 points with unflapped profiles powered by Fox 35s, or occasionally the FP 20.  That was 2008, with about two years of practice after coming back to CL.  How much better do you suppose I fly now?  You wanted to talk about skill level.      BTW I've seen pics of your planes, you shouldn't be bragging.

[Mike Callas]

Clippers just beat the Lakers

[Dennis Moritz]

Sixers beat the Lakers earlier in the week. Just got trounced by the Oklahoma City. Lakers are not very good. Sixers, I'm afraid, are in free fall.

[steven yampolsky]

They aren't just claims of superior knowledge they are fact.
I fully understand your writings I just don't understand your stubborn attitude of being the only one in the world that really understands how wonderful the old Fox really is...

Randy,

I do think that Fox is a great motor so Andrew is not the only one in the world. I do think it is "below average" when stock and pretty darn good when using "the formula": ABC P&L, stuffer backplate, proper muffler, Larry Foster head, Randy Smith HZ crankshaft and Randy Smith NVA. Switch to 15% nitro 22% oil(50/50 mix) an you will have a wonderful motor.

Unfortunately, by the time all the parts are together, the cost will be double that of a brand new Brodak 40 which will give you the same results out of the box and on 5% nitro fuel.

[john e. holliday]

All you guys need to get off the stuff you're on.   I know what I'm on,  hot coffee, black, no cream or sugar.  The other is regular Coka Cola.  I have my first place medallion hangng in the shop that my Fox .35 Stunt in the Umland International Stunt Winner helped me win last year.   I plan on winning more awards with the combination also. 

[Randy Cuberly]

What facts exactly Randy?  You have yet to present any argument that in any way invalidates my statements that I'd use a Fox 35 or an OS 35S in an Oriental, or that they work fine for me.  Everything you've argued has nothing to do with my statements.  I don't even know who you're trying to convince, since no one in this thread is talking about experts, serious stunt, Noblers, wind, or any of the other crap you've brought into the discussion trying to "win" the debate. 

For the record, in 2007 I took my own design stretched Flite Streak with a box stock Fox 35 to Sig as a backup plane.  I placed second in intermediate, I got beat by 17.5 points by a Magnum with a Supertigre 51.  The next day I flew the same plane, with the same box stock Fox 35 in P40.  I placed 9th in P40 behind six flyers who flew Expert in PAMPA, and ahead of 10 flyers who flew Advanced, including the 1st and 2nd place winners in that skill class.  These guys were flying the best profiles with whatever engine under a 40 they chose to run, and I beat them with the Flite Streak I built on my lap in 1994 with a box stock 40th Anniversary Fox 35.  I'd say my Foxes run pretty damn good.  I flew my Fox because I couldn't get the LA 40, FP 40, or FP 35 on my F-Twister to run right. 

In Oct 2008, I flew my Nobler with an OS 35S in Classic at the Tulsa Gluedobbers contest.  My final score was a 527, a shade under 10 points under Dale Gleeson who placed 2nd.  I believe you're probably familar with Dale, he beat you by 2.5pts in Classic at VSC last year.  Oh, and BTW I blew the exit of the cloverleaf and lost (at a minimum) my landing and pattern points.  In addition, I frequently beat the local experts in events without skill classes.  I regularly break 500 points with unflapped profiles powered by Fox 35s, or occasionally the FP 20.  That was 2008, with about two years of practice after coming back to CL.  How much better do you suppose I fly now?  You wanted to talk about skill level.      BTW I've seen pics of your planes, you shouldn't be bragging.

O'mi gosh Andrew...You win.  You've convinced me I'm gonna drag out my box of Foxes, at last count there were about 15 of them in there, several worn out, and build all new airplanes for them.  I should then be able to have more fun being a sport flier.

Thanks for all your effort and wonderful facts about how great you are and how great the Fox 35 is.  Beginners and sport fliers should now use nothing but Foxes and OS35S (Oh yeah I've got a bunch of those also with worn out rods).

I yield to your superior knowledge and skill.  You can stop now!

PHHHHHTTTTTTTT....

Randy Cuberly

[Andrew Hathaway]

O'mi gosh Andrew...You win.  You've convinced me I'm gonna drag out my box of Foxes, at last count there were about 15 of them in there, several worn out, and build all new airplanes for them.  I should then be able to have more fun being a sport flier.

Thanks for all your effort and wonderful facts about how great you are and how great the Fox 35 is.  Beginners and sport fliers should now use nothing but Foxes and OS35S (Oh yeah I've got a bunch of those also with worn out rods).

I yield to your superior knowledge and skill.  You can stop now!

PHHHHHTTTTTTTT....

Randy Cuberly

Wow Randy, this has been going on for a few days now and you still can't grasp my point.  I'm starting to feel guilty about coming back to this thread and publicly embarrassing you, however you haven't shown me a bit of courtesy or respect since my first post in this thread.  Let's recap, and see if you can grasp the Cliff's Notes version, it'll be fun and I'll try to keep it short. 

My first point was that the LA46 is less than ideal out of the box.  I supported my point.  Your response was to insult me, and to deny that the LA46 has any problems.  As if there's any doubt that the plastic backplate can leak and will likely crack if the screws are tightened.  It's well documented, but only the "experts" bother replacing it with an aluminum backplate.    Then you decided to attack my choice of engines, by comparing them apples to oranges with your beloved LA46.  Did I ever say anything beyond that the Fox 35 or 35S would be my choices for an Oriental?  Did I ever say they were better than an LA46?  After you were unable to support your argument, or stay on topic, you fired off that bit about the screws not being JIS, which is possible, I was just going by what I saw substantiated by no less than a former national champion, on this very forum.  You also threw in that bit about the Allen wrench, which makes no logical sense since the LAs don't have a single socket head screw, but again you ignored that.

Next the topic of the Fox 35 came up, and you came back to tell us that no one has used a Fox 35 in 40 years, that the Fox isn't competitive, and so on, completely ignoring what the thread is all about.  Notice the very first post at the top of the thread states the following "I fly strictly for fun so, blazing performance is not required."  I'm not surprised you missed that, since you haven't seemed to have grasped anything in this thread.  Then you questioned my credibility and skill level, as though somehow it has any bearing on my statements.  I guess I wasn't aware that this was a forum by the experts, and for the experts.  I foolishly believed that anyone was allowed to contribute? 

From there on, there isn't anything from you even remotely close to being on the subject, you just insult me constantly.  But hey, that's fine, you're an old timer in the old boys club, and I'm just a kid from Kansas, what could I possibly know?  How dare I have an opinion different from yours?  I don't claim to be a great pilot, or an expert.  I don't claim to have "superior knowledge and skill".  That's your game Randy, those are the claims you made about yourself without knowing anything about me.  I don't claim the Fox 35 is a great engine, those are your words that you've inserted into my argument.  You asked about my experience, and I just gave you a few examples.  By all means, Randy, you go ahead and stick with your $240 custom engine, I'll keep flying my sub-$100 OS 35S, and maybe you'll get a chance to fly against me sometime. 

Is it any wonder more people don't want to be involved on these wonderful forums?  Where anyone less than an established expert gets greeted with open arms, and can voice their own opinion without being derided.  Oh yeah, CL is such a great family, and so welcoming, just as long as you don't ever claim to enjoy flying a Fox 35. 

[De Hill]

Andrew is correct.

[Jim Kraft]

In spades.

[Randy Cuberly]

Hi Randy,

The original question was: Engine for Oriental build.

Doesn't it depend on the skill level of the Oriental builder? If he is a competitor he certainly would use a modern engine.

If he is a sport flyer a Fox .35 would work fine; after all, the Oriental was designed for a Fox .35.

De
If you read my original posts you will see that I agree with this...Then all of a sudden someone is making statements against anything except Foxes and OS35S's.  All I wanted to do was keep the use of those engines in their proper place.  I would never agree that those engines are the very best for a beginner.

Not sure how all this got started.  But it has become merely a sounding board for one individual.

Randy Cuberly

[Randy Cuberly]

Wow Randy, this has been going on for a few days now and you still can't grasp my point.  I'm starting to feel guilty about coming back to this thread and publicly embarrassing you, however you haven't shown me a bit of courtesy or respect since my first post in this thread.  Let's recap, and see if you can grasp the Cliff's Notes version, it'll be fun and I'll try to keep it short. 

My first point was that the LA46 is less than ideal out of the box.  I supported my point.  Your response was to insult me, and to deny that the LA46 has any problems.  As if there's any doubt that the plastic backplate can leak and will likely crack if the screws are tightened.  It's well documented, but only the "experts" bother replacing it with an aluminum backplate.    Then you decided to attack my choice of engines, by comparing them apples to oranges with your beloved LA46.  Did I ever say anything beyond that the Fox 35 or 35S would be my choices for an Oriental?  Did I ever say they were better than an LA46?  After you were unable to support your argument, or stay on topic, you fired off that bit about the screws not being JIS, which is possible, I was just going by what I saw substantiated by no less than a former national champion, on this very forum.  You also threw in that bit about the Allen wrench, which makes no logical sense since the LAs don't have a single socket head screw, but again you ignored that.

Next the topic of the Fox 35 came up, and you came back to tell us that no one has used a Fox 35 in 40 years, that the Fox isn't competitive, and so on, completely ignoring what the thread is all about.  Notice the very first post at the top of the thread states the following "I fly strictly for fun so, blazing performance is not required."  I'm not surprised you missed that, since you haven't seemed to have grasped anything in this thread.  Then you questioned my credibility and skill level, as though somehow it has any bearing on my statements.  I guess I wasn't aware that this was a forum by the experts, and for the experts.  I foolishly believed that anyone was allowed to contribute? 

From there on, there isn't anything from you even remotely close to being on the subject, you just insult me constantly.  But hey, that's fine, you're an old timer in the old boys club, and I'm just a kid from Kansas, what could I possibly know?  How dare I have an opinion different from yours?  I don't claim to be a great pilot, or an expert.  I don't claim to have "superior knowledge and skill".  That's your game Randy, those are the claims you made about yourself without knowing anything about me.  I don't claim the Fox 35 is a great engine, those are your words that you've inserted into my argument.  You asked about my experience, and I just gave you a few examples.  By all means, Randy, you go ahead and stick with your $240 custom engine, I'll keep flying my sub-$100 OS 35S, and maybe you'll get a chance to fly against me sometime. 

Is it any wonder more people don't want to be involved on these wonderful forums?  Where anyone less than an established expert gets greeted with open arms, and can voice their own opinion without being derided.  Oh yeah, CL is such a great family, and so welcoming, just as long as you don't ever claim to enjoy flying a Fox 35. 

Andrew if you had bothered to read my original post you would have seen that nearly everything you've accused me of is nonsense and was done for no other purpose than to advance your ego.

My original post:

Hi Sheldon,
Actually the Oriental was originally designed for the Fox 35.  Many have been successfully flown with that engine.  In fact the Oriental has a relatively long nose to balance with the light engine (Fox 35).  If you decided to use a different engine an OS35S is about the same weight and would also be a good choice.
I have flown one with a LA46 and it worked very well but was built with 1 1/2 inches removed from the stock nose to get the CG where it belonged.
In other words anything much heavier than the Fox or OS 35S will require shortening the nose or UUgggh...a fair amount of tail weight (as much as a couple ounces)!

Randy Cuberly

You then began a diatribe on how the LA46 shouldn't be such a popular engine because of all the faults you percieved it has.

I would like to correct you on one thing.
You have not embarrassed me at any time.  Further you are not capable of embarrassing me, getting under my skin...perhaps.

I asked you earlier if you were a lawyer because you seem to be an individual that is always spoiling for and argument.  I'm very sorry I let you suck me into anything...so you win. 

Come to Tucson and fly sometime!

Randy Cuberly

[Steve Riebe]

I thought I might make a few comments regarding the direction this thread is going. I have the utmost respect for all of you here, and several of you have been very kind and helped me out of previous problems I have had. I'm a beginner flyer, and I've had a lot of fun flying my Ringmasters, Twister, Jr. Nobler, Flight Streak, and most recently a full sized Nobler. All of these planes have plain jane out of the box engines. My Fox 35 starts with 2nd or 3rd flip, but I couldn't get it to run decent until I installed an Enya needle valve. I have a couple Fox 19's which run better then my abilities. I love the smoke trail these Fox's leave, I can just about tell how round my loops are on calm days. I also run an older Enya 35 and a couple of OS 40, and 46 LA's. I've learned to be patient with the standard location needle setting on those, but they will run pretty consistent, start easily, and again will perform better then my abilities. I joined this forum to learn from all of you, who I consider probably being the best CL'ers in the world. I think I have learned a lot, but I'm still just getting started.

I must say it hurts to see any who are bragging up their abilities because it makes me feel even more like I really don't know what I'm doing. Bickering back and forth over engine choices and making personal attacks on each other just doesn't seem to make any sense either. I hope this hobby of ours is still considered fun for all of you, and also hope it hasn't got to the point where people are only in it for recognition and trophies. Our hobby seems to need all the help it can get at this point. In my area (chicago) There's hardly anything available in hobby shops for C/L.  I have had the pleasure of meeting a few people from the circle cutters club, so I know the hobby is not completely dead. I think I might have been one of the younger guys there at a local contest (at 58 years old). I was there to meet others and observe, not to compete.  I hope we can all be friends and be here to help each other.

[Andrew Hathaway]

I would like to correct you on one thing.  You have not embarrassed me at any time

Randy Cuberly

You're right, you did that to yourself.  Look, all I did was state my opinion.  You could have ignored it like I ignore so many posts complaining about the Fox 35, or you could have made a rational counter-statement.  Instead you chose to start things off by insulting me.  I don't understand how you can begin to excuse yourself, as my only crime was disliking a specific engine.  People complain about one thing or another on these forums all the time, are they all smoking something if they don't like what you like?  You've stated time and time again that you're wasting your time, that you're through with this thread, yet you keep coming back throwing criticism at me.  Get over it.  It is insane that threads like this go this direction because Experts have to treat every question as if they're asking how to win the Walker cup.  I'm done with this thread, for real.  I apologize to the OP for my part in sidetracking the thread, and I apologize to anyone else that may have been offended along the way, including Mr Cuberly.

My Fox 35 starts with 2nd or 3rd flip, but I couldn't get it to run decent until I installed an Enya needle valve.

If you haven't already, you might want to try cutting a piece of fuel tubing about 1/4-3/8" long, and slip it over the pointy end of the needle before threading it into the spray bar.  When the needle is set it will compress between the bottom knob and the spraybar, which will help prevent leaks, vibration, and so on.  It really does help.

[De Hill]

De
If you read my original posts you will see that I agree with this...Then all of a sudden someone is making statements against anything except Foxes and OS35S's.  All I wanted to do was keep the use of those engines in their proper place.  I would never agree that those engines are the very best for a beginner.

Not sure how all this got started.  But it has become merely a sounding board for one individual.

Randy Cuberly

Hi Randy,

I regard both you and Andrew Hathaway as friends; I have known both of you for years. I think that if both of you had been standing together having this conversation, the harsh words and ill feelings would not have taken place. There are some people who had to stick their noses in your conversation which caused the ill feelings to escalate.

I doubt that you two will ever meet, but you are both  good guys, and I am happy to call you friends of mine.

De Hill

[Dick Pacini]

P.S. 46LA are not longer available in CL form. RC only.

Tower Hobbies shows them in stock right now.

[Randy Cuberly]

Thanks De,

I apologize to everyone for my part in this fiasco.
I do sometimes forget that not everyone in CL is interested in competition as that has been my only interest in it since 1952.
I did have a forced layoff of about 7 years through 2010 due to health problems.  I started flying again seriously at the beginning of 2012.  Health problems are fixed at least for the time being...modern surgical techniques are marvelous.

My best to everyone.

Randy Cuberly

[Sheldon Hartwell]

Hey guys,

      My apologies, I did'nt realize that this question was going to generate this many " passionate " responses. I only asked the question because my dad raised me on McCoy's and O & R's ( He was from the 1950's and 1960's control line era ). In talking with him, he did have high praise for other engines of the time such as Foxes, Forsters, and Doolings.
      I can't thank you people enough for all of the positive and negative input that you've given me about all of the engines discussed. As I said in my original post, I fly strictly for fun and my pure enjoyment. I haven't ever flown in competition, and probably never will. As long as I'm not working, and I'm in the " circle " life is great.

                                                                                                   Sheldon

[Mike Keville]

As the old saying goes, "Different strokes for different folks".  Let's not get too worked-up over this stuff.  Come to VSC-25 (March 19-23) and you'll see everything from 1940s sparkers to the latest hot item.

[Phil Bare]

High, Sheldon, I think that most every one here builds and flys because they enjoy the activity, I have been doing it for close to sixty years now and I still get satisfaction when I build a new bird and make that first flight. It makes no difference what the airplane is or what engine it has on it, I like em all and I think that that is common for most all modlers. I have an old well used Oriental with an old well used Fox .35 S on it and it gets around the circle just fine.
SO does my Flight Streak powered with a OS LA .25 as does my Flying Fool powered with a Forster .35. The point is, enjoy what ever it is that you have along with the interaction with those that you engage with in the hobby. With me pushing hard on 70 years old I can say, build, fly, and enjoy, life is far too short to do other wise.
Regards, Phil Bare

[john e. holliday]

Well I can't call Randy a kid as I find out he is a couple of months older then me.  I first met him when him and Walter, the other teenager were the hot shots of the Flying Eagles.   Then I left the city and did not get to see him again until Ken Smith reintroduced us a VSC banquet.   Walter I met in Tulsa years later.   Now Andrew I remember as a kid when him and his dad first got started.   I have my opinions of Andrew and his flying, but his dad is one of the greatest people to meet.   Anyway it is time to shut both parties  down in my opinion or get them together like when I was in  high school with boxing gloves and face to face.   I put my money on Randy as he has probably been down that road also.   Anyway guys drop the subject matter and get the new planes going.

[De Hill]

Doc,

Do you actually think that you are helping this situation?

[Andrew Hathaway]

Don't worry De.  Doc has just been grumpy about me and my flying ever since I moved out of beginner.  He's always got something to say about my equipment, my flights, or my attitude.  As long as he's not judging my patterns in an official capacity, I usually don't let it bother me and I enjoy seeing him at contests.  I'm not sure exactly why Doc has a problem with me, in general I like everyone.  It might have something to do with the huge age gap, it's not exactly easy to relate to the crowd at most contests when most of the people there are more than twice my age.  IDK.  Healthy debates on the internet aside, I'd never strap on the gloves and take a swing at a senior citizen.

[Allen Brickhaus]

Allen,

That may be my favorite Brickhaus paint scheme ever.  Just beautiful!

Happy New Year.

Ted

Thank you Ted,

Allen

[Randy Cuberly]

Hey Guys,
I don't see anything in this thread that indicates anyone hates anyone or wants to "take a poke" at anyone.   Disagreements like this don't end in punches unless it's in a Bar and the booze is flowing...let's stop the nonsense.  There are thousands of people in the world that I disagree with on different subjects.  I really don't want to poke any of them, and since none have tried to poke me I assume they feel the same.

UUUhhhhh...well maybe a congressman or two but they don't count...

Randy C.

[De Hill]

Thanks, Doc for sticking your nose in this thread and getting it going again.

Thanks a lot...

De Hill

[Randy Cuberly]

Thanks, Doc for sticking your nose in this thread and getting it going again.

Thanks a lot...

De Hill

De,
It's not really going again.  I think Doc's comments served to show how really ridiculous it had gotten.  Even if that didn't seem to be his intent.
We all get wrapped up in something sometimes and lose sight of what is actually going on.
I believe your earlier comment that had we been face to face this probably never would have gone past the initial stages was correct.
Thanks for being the Peacemaker.

Randy C.   

[Sheldon Hartwell]

Hi Phil Bare,
    I couldn't agree with your post more than you have stated. One of the reasons that I got more involved in tne C/L forums is that it seemed more laid back and informal. My question started out as a simple inquiry, and it grew into a much more aggresive response than I think was needed.
    What's happening to this area of our hobby ? We are the minority, it just tells me that differences of opinion are great, but let's not get consumed by them. I like all of the inputs, but can't things stay on a little more hospitable tone ?
                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                        Sheldon

[Chris Wilson]

I have a couple of Fox .35 engines kicking around the shop, but I don't know if that will be ample power to haul the model around.
                                                                                         Sheldon

Sheldon, I fully believe that the Fox 35 (despite having to now wear a power reducing muffler) will be fine considering that modern high performance  stunt props will probably pull back what is lost from the muffler.

I have a Fox 35 with a carbon fibre 10x5 Brian Ether prop that I simply must get up and running one day!

[Phil Bare]

Hi Phil Bare,
    I couldn't agree with your post more than you have stated. One of the reasons that I got more involved in tne C/L forums is that it seemed more laid back and informal. My question started out as a simple inquiry, and it grew into a much more aggresive response than I think was needed.
    What's happening to this area of our hobby ? We are the minority, it just tells me that differences of opinion are great, but let's not get consumed by them. I like all of the inputs, but can't things stay on a little more hospitable tone ?
                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                        Sheldon

Hey, Sheldon, I suppose that the same thing that makes some competative in the contests also makes them think that they have all the answers even if the question is ignored. Your question was straight forward and the most honest and logical answer was given by serveral, the Oriental was designed for the Fox.35, that answer should pretty well cover what you asked.
There are many other answers to your querstion, none of them any more correct than: The Oriental was disigned for a Fox .35. Why any need for all the vitriol, I do not know.
We all  have our likes and dislikes but fussing over them is pretty nonproductive and really does not help the individual asking the question, the hobby, nor the forum.
Phil Bare