2020 Nats Opportunity

[Matt Colan]

Yolanda has told me AMA will announce that they will waive late fees for at least a while longer so if you are on the fence but are willing to take a chance then get signed up.

Do you know how much longer they will waive the late fees?

[Dave_Trible]

Not sure Matt but don’t wait much longer.  Yolanda said she will pull pre-entry data Monday or Tuesday to figure out the trophies $ AMA provides.  We will still have to pay the lion’s share of that but it all helps.  Also it greatly aids preparing and decisions I have to make.

Dave

[Matt Colan]

I’m still waiting on the possible work development. I asked and our rep isn’t sure about what is happening yet

[Paul Walker]

Dave T said:
 I have told the crew that the only major stipulation I will ask (that I know of yet) is that the Appearance judges should have gloves to handle all the airplanes.  We know the  virus can hang around  on hard surfaces for up to 72 hours.  We don't want anything passed from airplane to airplane to airplane to person.


How do the gloves help? If an airplane has something on it and they touch it, then pick up the next plane it could be attached the the second plane also. Then the owner picks it up, and now the owner may have it on them. I don't see this as a viable solution.

I would suggest that they don't touch the planes in appearance judging. Problem is we have become accustomed to having them in nice rows of like points. This requires touching, thus possible transmission.
I will not apply disinfectant to my plane prior to touching g after appearance judging as it will likely affect the finish adversely. Hands yes, but plane, no. I am not a fraidey cat, but how to protect others?

So what is the right answer?

[pmackenzie]

New pair of gloves for each model?

[Paul Walker]

New gloves for each model is an option.
 Hope they are easier to get there, as opposed to where I am.

[Mike Alimov]

I can bring a box of 100 gloves, my wife gets them from hair supply stores. Should cover all the planes and then some.

[Dave_Trible]

Mike please bring the gloves.  I'd seen some boxes at the drug store the other day.  I'll get some of those so we have enough.  Thanks Paul for starting a conversation about it-it all helps and I sure like any input I can get.  I asked myself the same question you did actually but thought we could use wipes to wipe the gloves in-between.  Some at work are doing that periodically.  But new gloves just solves it.  Another possibility might be to judge differently.  Flyer A gets checked in and the airplane weighed-he sets it on the scale.  He then picks it up and moves  so Flyer B can get to the check in table.  Flyer A puts the plane on another table and stands by while the judges look the airplane over and give it a score.  Then he is asked to carry it over to set it down-maybe in a marked row corresponding to the score it received.  (actually at this point the judging is done.  He COULD just simply be on his way with the airplane except for the show time-photo time that usually follows) . Flyer B and C move forward.  In this way the pilot is the only one who ever touches the airplane.  That to me begs another question:  As it is currently done,  is each airplane given a score as if it is the only one there at the time, or are they shuffled like musical chairs, best to worse and scoring rows/scores fall where they fall?  If that's the approach my suggestion would run afoul of that.
Dave

[Derek Barry]

Mike please bring the gloves.  I'd seen some boxes at the drug store the other day.  I'll get some of those so we have enough.  Thanks Paul for starting a conversation about it-it all helps and I sure like any input I can get.  I asked myself the same question you did actually but thought we could use wipes to wipe the gloves in-between.  Some at work are doing that periodically.  But new gloves just solves it.  Another possibility might be to judge differently.  Flyer A gets checked in and the airplane weighed-he sets it on the scale.  He then picks it up and moves  so Flyer B can get to the check in table.  Flyer A puts the plane on another table and stands by while the judges look the airplane over and give it a score.  Then he is asked to carry it over to set it down-maybe in a marked row corresponding to the score it received.  (actually at this point the judging is done.  He COULD just simply be on his way with the airplane except for the show time-photo time that usually follows) . Flyer B and C move forward.  In this way the pilot is the only one who ever touches the airplane.  That to me begs another question:  As it is currently done,  is each airplane given a score as if it is the only one there at the time, or are they shuffled like musical chairs, best to worse and scoring rows/scores fall where they fall?  If that's the approach my suggestion would run afoul of that.
Dave

Wow, just wow. I cant believe we are having this conversation.  Do you really think you are going to catch a virus by picking up a plane, outside,  in heat and sunlight? Changing gloves between handleing airplanes? You guys can not be serious!!!

I believe this is exactly the kind of thing Brett was worried about, and its making me strongly reconsider coming.

Derek

[Steve Fitton]

My plane is only handled once when it is placed in the back row so odds of it getting coronavirus are remote.

[Crist Rigotti]

What about launching and retrieving? Will gloves be required?  More than just the builder/pilot will handle the model during the competition.

[Dave_Trible]

What about launching and retrieving? Will gloves be required?  More than just the builder/pilot will handle the model during the competition.

I’m not asking anything from the contestants,  just a few of the crew- for their safety and all the pilots- at least the ones who care about it.

Dave

[Crist Rigotti]

I’m not asking anything from the contestants,  just a few of the crew- for their safety and all the pilots- at least the ones who care about it.

Dave

Got it.
Thanks.

[Brett Buck]

I believe this is exactly the kind of thing Brett was worried about,

  It is. I have yet to see a hard list of these precautions "for safety", and a statement that we won't start making them up on the fly.

That's what I am really concerned with - everyone with the most conservative view of what constitutes "safety" will start adding stuff, on the fly, that result in what has resulted in many other cases I have been involved with - "safety screechers".

   Without knowing one way or another whether Paul's concern is legitimate, or making any judgement of what people need to feel "safe" -  if it is so dangerous that you can't pick up an airplane for 72 hours, then it's too dangerous to proceed.

    What will happen, if we let it, is that throughout the weeks leading up to, and when we get there, is that people are going to start having "helpful suggestions" about what is required, and suggest them to Dave, the AMA staff, etc - even though they are not responsible in any way for epidemic protections - and then those will start being implemented, because if they aren't, the proposers will get more and more adamant about it, because they think that is what the need to "stay safe".

     The result is a spiral of increasingly draconian "safety rules", because while Derek Barry might not care or want any protection, what he wants is irrelevant, it's to "protect everyone else", the implication of which is that Derek is a thoughtless person who doesn't care about other people, and must be made to comply. That's how we ended up with masks in supermarkets, that's how we ended up with universal quarantine of even those who are not sick, neither of which accomplishes anything aside from making people "feel safe".       

    Here is the reality - if you go all the way across country to Muncie, assume that *you will be exposed to COVID-19*, and there is some extremely small chance that you will have serious symptoms and a vanishingly small chance of dying of it. It's more likely than some other infectious diseases you had to expose yourself to before this year (polio, malaria, SARS, Hanta virus, Ebola, etc.).

    If you cannot accept that risk, and expect that somehow things will be arranged for you to avoid exposure entirely, then that is probably not realistic.

    Dave Trible is *not responsible for your safety*, the AMA is *not responsible for your safety*, other people are *not responsible for your safety*, you, the individual, are solely responsible for your own safety, don't count on other people, because neither they nor anyone else knows enough to ensure that. Don't go to the NATS expecting them to "keep you safe", they can't do that and it's not their job.

   Brett

   
     

[Paul Walker]

Brett,
My only intent was to show the flaw in Dave's "appearance judges will wear gloves" decree.
If he is concerned about the judges getting it, he should be concerned about the fliers also.
Me, I am going. I talked to Yolanda and she said the only Impact to the fliers would be to have to go to the "white house" to register, and they would have hand sanitizer all over. No requirements on social distancing or masks.

[Brett Buck]

Brett,
My only intent was to show the flaw in Dave's "appearance judges will wear gloves" decree.

  Mine was to show how that same reasoning, taken to the logical end, winds up.  I wasn't criticizing at all. Also to point out that Dave and the organizers are not on the hook for your, my, or anyone else's "safety", at least as infectious diseases are concerned, any more than Gavin Newsom or Eric Holcomb. 

     We did and are doing launch and early orbit operations on a satellite. Launch was the week after the (unconstitutional) lockdown, which resulted in one decree after another, each person who considered themselves guardians of my safety came up with something more impacting and draconian than the last, with continuous nagging.

     Two important differences were that this was an activity with real national security implications, AND, they were paying everyone their (as you have noted several times over the years) exorbitant salary. Not a completely trivial leisure activity where the participants are making extreme efforts to attend, for their own enjoyment.

    Brett

[Crist Rigotti]

  It is. I have yet to see a hard list of these precautions "for safety", and a statement that we won't start making them up on the fly.

That's what I am really concerned with - everyone with the most conservative view of what constitutes "safety" will start adding stuff, on the fly, that result in what has resulted in many other cases I have been involved with - "safety screechers".

   Without knowing one way or another whether Paul's concern is legitimate, or making any judgement of what people need to feel "safe" -  if it is so dangerous that you can't pick up an airplane for 72 hours, then it's too dangerous to proceed.

    What will happen, if we let it, is that throughout the weeks leading up to, and when we get there, is that people are going to start having "helpful suggestions" about what is required, and suggest them to Dave, the AMA staff, etc - even though they are not responsible in any way for epidemic protections - and then those will start being implemented, because if they aren't, the proposers will get more and more adamant about it, because they think that is what the need to "stay safe".

     The result is a spiral of increasingly draconian "safety rules", because while Derek Barry might not care or want any protection, what he wants is irrelevant, it's to "protect everyone else", the implication of which is that Derek is a thoughtless person who doesn't care about other people, and must be made to comply. That's how we ended up with masks in supermarkets, that's how we ended up with universal quarantine of even those who are not sick, neither of which accomplishes anything aside from making people "feel safe".       

    Here is the reality - if you go all the way across country to Muncie, assume that *you will be exposed to COVID-19*, and there is some extremely small chance that you will have serious symptoms and a vanishingly small chance of dying of it. It's more likely than some other infectious diseases you had to expose yourself to before this year (polio, malaria, SARS, Hanta virus, Ebola, etc.).

    If you cannot accept that risk, and expect that somehow things will be arranged for you to avoid exposure entirely, then that is probably not realistic.

    Dave Trible is *not responsible for your safety*, the AMA is *not responsible for your safety*, other people are *not responsible for your safety*, you, the individual, are solely responsible for your own safety, don't count on other people, because neither they nor anyone else knows enough to ensure that. Don't go to the NATS expecting them to "keep you safe", they can't do that and it's not their job.

   Brett

   
   

I totally agree with Brett!  100%

[Crist Rigotti]

<snip I talked to Yolanda and she said the only Impact snip>

I like the way you capitalized Impact!

[Paul Walker]

I like the way you capitalized Impact!

😂😂😂

[Matt Colan]

Just registered! Looking forward to being there! 

[Dave_Trible]

Matt glad you are coming.  Also I think we may be up to 10 judges again.  Bad news are a couple who have sent messages today saying they now AREN’T coming due to the cavalier attitudes expressed herein.

Dave

[Derek Barry]

  The result is a spiral of increasingly draconian "safety rules", because while Derek Barry might not care or want any protection, what he wants is irrelevant, it's to "protect everyone else", the implication of which is that Derek is a thoughtless person who doesn't care about other people, and must be made to comply.

   Brett

Didn't take long, did it?

Derek

[Brett Buck]

Matt glad you are coming.  Also I think we may be up to 10 judges again.  Bad news are a couple who have sent messages today saying they now AREN’T coming due to the cavalier attitudes expressed herein.

  Which cavalier attitudes might those be? It was my considered opinion that this contest should not be held at all, because you and no one else can guarantee safety, and there will be plenty of people who, rightly or wrongly, expect you and the AMA to do that for them.

  All I wanted was a clear indication of what we were going to do, in order to make an informed decision on a moderately risky and extremely costly and difficult trip. I have no idea whether it will even be possible to do it in any case.

     So, what exactly do you want me (and Derek and Crist and Matt and everyone else) to do now? Stay away so others can be pretend to be "safe"? Come anyway to fill out the card?

      Brett

[Dave_Trible]

Brett I really don't have the time or desire to argue with you or anyone else.  I have and do consider you, Derek and most all of you my friends and don't wish to change that.  Trying to put on a Nats in the middle of a pandemic hasn't been done before and scares the crap out of a lot of folks.  We live in a society of people, not on an island so I try to consider all and error on the side of safety.  Yes I tried to get the AMA EC to call this one off just for these reasons but they chose otherwise and so as not to damage our (PAMPA) position with AMA,  I also didn't, as about half the other SIG's did pull us out.  So now we have more than half our participants staying home really fearing or being told by doctors it is not safe to come and many of the rest who ARE coming more than a little nervous about it, including all those who are giving of themselves to run this thing so that you and others can enjoy your time.  Many of those are not youngsters and to them this is dangerous.  I'm doing my best to stay out of the way of the competitors and not ask a damn thing of them other than they try to respect others-the Golden Rule.  All this hellabaloo over asking one or two JUDGES to put on gloves for about an hour to help calm a few nerves and just maybe prevent someone from getting sick.  How is this worthy of your ire?  Out on the field you are totally free to do as you wish and handle your airplanes and choose your helpers.  I KNOW you will see at least a few wearing gloves and maybe even masks.  We live in a time when we should just accept that.  You can simply do as you wish but please allow others to so as well without the grief.

Dave

[Derek Barry]

Brett I really don't have the time or desire to argue with you or anyone else.  I have and do consider you, Derek and most all of you my friends and don't wish to change that.  Trying to put on a Nats in the middle of a pandemic hasn't been done before and scares the crap out of a lot of folks.  We live in a society of people, not on an island so I try to consider all and error on the side of safety.  Yes I tried to get the AMA EC to call this one off just for these reasons but they chose otherwise and so as not to damage our (PAMPA) position with AMA,  I also didn't, as about half the other SIG's did pull us out.  So now we have more than half our participants staying home really fearing or being told by doctors it is not safe to come and many of the rest who ARE coming more than a little nervous about it, including all those who are giving of themselves to run this thing so that you and others can enjoy your time.  Many of those are not youngsters and to them this is dangerous.  I'm doing my best to stay out of the way of the competitors and not ask a damn thing of them other than they try to respect others-the Golden Rule.  All this hellabaloo over asking one or two JUDGES to put on gloves for about an hour to help calm a few nerves and just maybe prevent someone from getting sick.  How is this worthy of your ire?  Out on the field you are totally free to do as you wish and handle your airplanes and choose your helpers.  I KNOW you will see at least a few wearing gloves and maybe even masks.  We live in a time when we should just accept that.  You can simply do as you wish but please allow others to so as well without the grief.

Dave

Dave,

 I'm sure I speak for the others when I say that we consider you a friend too, and none of us want that to change either. We are also aware that you sorta got stuck running this thing. I know that you were certain that the AMA would cancel and you wouldn't have to deal with this mess, but that didn't happen, and now you are forced to the best you can with what you have. Please don't think that my frustration is directed specifically at you, you just happen to be the guy in charge right now. Its not a job that many want, and there usually is more complaining than praise involved. The best advice I can offer is to make educated decisions, make them public early, and stand by them, even when people like me (or Howard) complain.

It is very obvious that people have very strong opinions on the virus, some very concerned, and others (like myself) who are not concerned at all. Maybe its because literally nothing in my life has changed, other than not being able to dine in my favorite Mexican restaurant for a few weeks. (that was very depressing) My job never shut down, and I spend my days in other peoples homes, usually 5-6 a day. So far, I have been asked by one person to wear a mask, (which I was happy to do) because her husband had some medical issues and was on oxygen. I live in a very big Medical district, and many of my customers are either in the medical field, or have an immediate family member who is. To say my chances of exposure are high, would be an understatement, however, life has gone on as normal, and nobody that I know has been adversely affected by the virus. Some had cold like symptoms and others were asymptomatic. I know it is very serious for people in their um... advanced years, and that much of our community would fall into that category. If you would like the appearance judges to change gloves 50 times in the matter of an hour, so be it. I just don't think it will make a difference. That is my opinion.

Derek

[john e. holliday]

Well the old DOC won't be at another NATS.  Sure miss it.  I still think people are making a mountain out of an ant hill.  If people are sick or suspect of the virus stay home.   I won't be there but the idea of the judges not touching the planes is an idea.  Let the contestant move the plane around for the judges like the scale modelers do.  If the hand sanitizers are available, use them if you are afraid of getting something.  I do hope all you folks will have a good time and not get sick from a virus.  In my opinion there is more of a chance of heat exhaustion after being in lock down for so long.  I blame the politicians and so called medical experts for my condition right now.  When temps get to 90+F degrees I have to slow down even more now.   All I know about my self is I sweat a lot and when I don't sweat I need help.  Again for all those that attend the NATS remember to have fun and enjoy the time together.

Also remember to travel safely going and coming.  I await the reports.

[Brett Buck]

  How is this worthy of your ire?  Out on the field you are totally free to do as you wish and handle your airplanes and choose your helpers.  I KNOW you will see at least a few wearing gloves and maybe even masks.  We live in a time when we should just accept that.  You can simply do as you wish but please allow others to so as well without the grief.

   Dave, I am not mad, but I do think it is perfectly reasonable to ask for some idea ahead of time what will be expected.

     I am not taking safety lightly, and I don't take responsibility for other people deciding not to come because they have somehow gotten the idea I (and maybe Derek and Paul) don't have a "proper" attitude about it. Most of those people are probably *not* being asked to drive solo 2400 miles across the country during an epidemic, with unknown conditions along the way.

     We didn't invent the Wuhan Flu, that (and the reaction to it) is the problem, not Derek and Brett.

     I assure you I am not "cavalier" about the risks, but there are a lot of different potential risks involved. This illustrates perfectly one of the risks I was talking about, basically getting tagged and called out - in public -  for other people having a different opinion about what constitutes "safety".

     I was asking what the conditions/rules are going to be, so everyone knows going in, and it doesn't turn into a nasty confrontation at the contest that spirals out of control with people finger-pointing and screaming "6 feet!!" at each other. Because I have spent the last 4 months in enclosed spaces with lots of people doing with exactly that.

  And in any case, no one can possibly be responsible for someone else's health, not you, not me, not the AMA, not Fauci, not someone wearing a SCAPE suit. Nor will I take responsibility for other people's decisions about it, far from it, I encourage everyone to recognize that there are very real risks involved with cross-country travel now, and to decide for themselves whether those risks are worth it to them.

  I know from watching it year after year after year, that the organizers and you specifically are in a no-win situation - do nothing, and some people will find it too dangerous, do too much and no one will find it an enjoyable experience. It's usually that way to some extent, but it's much worse this time.

    Thats why proceeding is, in my opinion, a mistake, precisely because half the people involved will wind up mad at the other half. Here we are a month out, it's already happening.

    It's a bad situation all around.  If I go to a model airplane contest to see my friends across the country, and they are afraid (legitimately or not) to shake hands, then, that's not the NATs.

      Brett

   

[Paul Walker]

I will shake your hand Brett!

[Dave_Trible]

We can all shake hands and pass the sanitizer!  BTW Brett,  you going to judge Classic?  I’m sure Bob would like the help.

Dave

[Joe Ed Pederson]

I will be attempting to fly the Beginner Stunt pattern at the Nats but I couldn't find the flight time limit for the Beginner Pattern (hand signal to start engine to end of flight) in the AMA rule book.  Last year, in a local contest, I flew (that's being way too generous) Beginners and went over the time limit, which I think was set at 6 minutes versus the 8 minutes for the full pattern events.  I'm guessing the time limit is set by the CD or the person running the Beginner Stunt event.

Did I just miss finding the time limit in the rule book?    If there isn't a shorter time limit in the AMA rule book, what will the time limit be at the Nats?  Would like to know so I can determine how much fuel to put in the tank.

Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO

[Dave_Trible]

Joe Ed I hope someone answers the question since I don’t know.  I’m told we now have 28 Open entries.  I may need to increase my order for “I made the cut” tee shirts.

Davej

[Brett Buck]

I will shake your hand Brett!

 How many layers of gloves for that?  Of course, I was toxic to be around long before March...

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

I will be attempting to fly the Beginner Stunt pattern at the Nats but I couldn't find the flight time limit for the Beginner Pattern (hand signal to start engine to end of flight) in the AMA rule book.  Last year, in a local contest, I flew (that's being way too generous) Beginners and went over the time limit, which I think was set at 6 minutes versus the 8 minutes for the full pattern events.  I'm guessing the time limit is set by the CD or the person running the Beginner Stunt event.

Did I just miss finding the time limit in the rule book?    If there isn't a shorter time limit in the AMA rule book, what will the time limit be at the Nats?  Would like to know so I can determine how much fuel to put in the tank.

   Unless there is some special rule, it's 8 minutes, but it would be greatly appreciated by all concerned if you didn't use any more than necessary.

    Brett

[Shorts,David]

It's good to see so many protesting on here. As we have learned from our infallible media, a protest is one place you can't catch the virus. Dave, I'm with you on the "Do to Others." I'll be sure to bring my competition pro mask and keep it handy just in case. Now I just need to find my way to Muncie. It is in Texas, right?

[Matt Colan]

I will shake your hand Brett!

Me too!

[Dave_Trible]

Yes David, in Texas just south of Atlanta.

Here’s what I have
Open ....28 but three will not be there so 25
Advanced.....19
Junior.... 3
Senior....0

Dave

[Matt Brown]

Yes David, in Texas just south of Atlanta.

Here’s what I have
Open ....28 but three will not be there so 25
Advanced.....19
Junior.... 3
Senior....0

Dave

I best bring my B game this year. I don’t want to accidentally win Advanced with the lower turnout and have fly open next year

Matt

[Brett Buck]

It's good to see so many protesting on here. As we have learned from our infallible media, a protest is one place you can't catch the virus. Dave, I'm with you on the "Do to Others." I'll be sure to bring my competition pro mask and keep it handy just in case. Now I just need to find my way to Muncie. It is in Texas, right?

   Get on I-80, drive 2000 miles, turn right.  I know every pothole by now.

    Brett

[James Mills]

Yes David, in Texas just south of Atlanta.

Here’s what I have
Open ....28 but three will not be there so 25
Advanced.....19
Junior.... 3
Senior....0

Dave

Ben should be registered as a Senior.

James

[Dave_Trible]

James you might call them tomorrow .  He shows in Advanced but nothing in Senior.

Dave

[James Mills]

James you might call them tomorrow .  He shows in Advanced but nothing in Senior.

Dave

Will do.

James

[John Paris]

I will be attempting to fly the Beginner Stunt pattern at the Nats but I couldn't find the flight time limit for the Beginner Pattern (hand signal to start engine to end of flight) in the AMA rule book.  Last year, in a local contest, I flew (that's being way too generous) Beginners and went over the time limit, which I think was set at 6 minutes versus the 8 minutes for the full pattern events.  I'm guessing the time limit is set by the CD or the person running the Beginner Stunt event.

Did I just miss finding the time limit in the rule book?    If there isn't a shorter time limit in the AMA rule book, what will the time limit be at the Nats?  Would like to know so I can determine how much fuel to put in the tank.

Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO

Joe,
The 6 minute limit was something that Allen Brickhaus did to keep things moving along.  His thoughts were that since the Beginner pattern takes about 4 minutes to fly, that 6 minutes would give the pilot about 2 minutes of cushion similar to what is available in the full pattern.  I believe Brett is correct that the rule book only mentions an 8 minute time limit so I suppose it could be discussed with the event director.

For what it is worth, I think 6 minutes is plenty of time for a Beginner and would target this as a maximum time.  The event director may honor the 8 minute limit which you will still comply with.

Good luck and have fun.

John

[afml]

Regarding the Beginner Stunt Event at this year's NATS.
Please refer to the EVENTS section.
The Beginner Stunt Event is posted there with the rules and additional information.
Hope to see you there!
"Tight Lines!"
Wes

[mike londke]

I will be attempting to fly the Beginner Stunt pattern at the Nats but I couldn't find the flight time limit for the Beginner Pattern (hand signal to start engine to end of flight) in the AMA rule book.  Last year, in a local contest, I flew (that's being way too generous) Beginners and went over the time limit, which I think was set at 6 minutes versus the 8 minutes for the full pattern events.  I'm guessing the time limit is set by the CD or the person running the Beginner Stunt event.

Did I just miss finding the time limit in the rule book?    If there isn't a shorter time limit in the AMA rule book, what will the time limit be at the Nats?  Would like to know so I can determine how much fuel to put in the tank.

Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO

Here ya go.  https://stunthanger.com/smf/event's/nats-beginner-stunt-2020/

[Brett Buck]

Here ya go.  https://stunthanger.com/smf/event's/nats-beginner-stunt-2020/

  So, 6 minutes - which is still PLENTY of time.

    Brett

[Dan McEntee]

I will be attempting to fly the Beginner Stunt pattern at the Nats but I couldn't find the flight time limit for the Beginner Pattern (hand signal to start engine to end of flight) in the AMA rule book.  Last year, in a local contest, I flew (that's being way too generous) Beginners and went over the time limit, which I think was set at 6 minutes versus the 8 minutes for the full pattern events.  I'm guessing the time limit is set by the CD or the person running the Beginner Stunt event.

Did I just miss finding the time limit in the rule book?    If there isn't a shorter time limit in the AMA rule book, what will the time limit be at the Nats?  Would like to know so I can determine how much fuel to put in the tank.

Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO

       You can get it down to under 6 minutes Joe. You just need to practice, and with each flight be very specific about how much fuel you put in the tank, take off RPM, and what the air temperature is. Experiment and BE SURE! DON"T GUESS! Pick the plane that you know the best. Make each test/practice flight like it is a competition flight and record your run times and lap times . Do this EVERY FLIGHT! You are trying to achieve consistency. Work on your starting routine to make sure you are started and in the air in about 1 minute or less. Try not to take too many laps between the maneuvers, keep it at the two that are required inn the rule book. If you are doing all of the maneuvers now, all you need to do is just tie it all together for a complete flight and that is what you should focus on in practice. We'll get together at Buder and I'll coach you. YOU CAN DO IT!!!!
     Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[mike londke]

If memory serves Samuel was completing the Beginner Pattern right around 2 minutes 40 seconds. There isn't much to it.

[Joe Ed Pederson]

Thanks to everyone.

Joe Ed

[Brendan Eberenz]

Angstrom is still flying Beginner and we can do all the stunts, with two laps in between and time to spare, in 2 minutes 30 seconds.

[Dave_Trible]

From my email this morning Mr. Fitzgerald is asking if anyone can pick him up at the airport in Indy and bring him to Muncie.  Normally no challenge but he lands during the pilots meeting.  Perhaps a spouse or family member of someone?  He said he would hang out at the airport until after the meeting if need be.  He is judging this year so I doubt there is an airplane to transport.  Please let me know.  (Or Dave if you have his contact info).

Thanks!

Dave