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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Dave_Trible on January 07, 2020, 11:35:55 AM
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PAMPA has yet to name the Event Director, CL Aerobatics for the 2020 event. This needs to be accomplished in the next days or weeks to begin planning. A CD license will be required. Full support and some compensation is included.
Interested persons please inquire here:
VegasDave4@gmail.com
Thank You
The management
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Dave, I was the CLPA event director for three years. I had no CD license. Have things changed?
I asked before volunteering and was told the overall Nat's director has a CD license, and that was all that was necessary.
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Just a friendly tip. As the current "management" you might want to start recruiting judges in advance of your pending ED appointment.
Derek
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Dave, I was the CLPA event director for three years. I had no CD license. Have things changed?
I asked before volunteering and was told the overall Nat's director has a CD license, and that was all that was necessary.
Paul I can ask directly of AMA but I was told by someone else it had been made a requirement. I had thought perhaps that simply nobody had inquired or cared to ask before. I will ask tomorrow to verify.
Just to say- I just recently got my CD license and it’s really no big deal to get one.
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Just a friendly tip. As the current "management" you might want to start recruiting judges in advance of your pending ED appointment.
Derek
Derek I had thought (and how it worked out when I was the Assistant) the ED would be involved in recruiting of the judges, with Mark’s help and guidance. I don’t think PAMPA was directly involved with that, at least in that case.
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I just emailed Yolanda about the CD question. I’ll report when I hear back.
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Derek I had thought (and how it worked out when I was the Assistant) the ED would be involved in recruiting of the judges, with Mark’s help and guidance. I don’t think PAMPA was directly involved with that, at least in that case.
You are correct, however, we don't have an ED yet. Judge, tabulator, and other volunteer positions should be getting filled now. The longer we wait, the less likely we will have everyone we need to run the contest. Please don't take this the wrong way, but until the ED spot is filled, you are the big man in charge... I'm sure that whomever might take the position, would be very grateful for anyone who you might be able to get.
Just a suggestion, nothing else.
Derek
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Thanks Derek. I had planned to obtain the list of personnel from last year and get email off to Mark O. I know this will also require some extra work this year because the guys at AMA who made trophies and shirts have both retired and they tell us some of this will be up to us to resource on our own. This I had already planned to pursue from the PAMPA side of things. I may see about working a deal with the other control line groups to source/buy together as group.
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Thanks Derek. I had planned to obtain the list of personnel from last year and get email off to Mark O. I know this will also require some extra work this year because the guys at AMA who made trophies and shirts have both retired and they tell us some of this will be up to us to resource on our own. This I had already planned to pursue from the PAMPA side of things.
I'll see what I can do for trophies. I'll send you a private email.
Talk to you soon.
Derek
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I'll see what I can do for trophies. I'll send you a private email.
Talk to you soon.
Derek
Thank you sir. Yolanda says they will send out art work for the plates. This might just be for the unofficial events-not totally clear yet.
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Yolanda just answered my email. YES it is required but she says "it's easy to get"... y1
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Yolanda just answered my email. YES it is required but she says "it's easy to get"... y1
This invalidates the results of Nats for which PW was event director, as well as any weddings or baptisms he preformed as ED.
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Oh that's too easy. A fine of three more Nats ED assignments is levied.
We have our first OFFICIAL crew volunteer! Don Main will return as pull tester. Thanks to him.
Dave
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Oh that's too easy. A fine of three more Nats ED assignments is levied.
We have our first OFFICIAL crew volunteer! Don Main will return as pull tester. Thanks to him.
Dave
I volunteer Brett to run the Nats. No need to tell him till he gets there. I'm sure he will understand.
Derek
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If u are an ED why do u need a CD's license ??. all the years I ran Racing at the Nats I was never asked if I had a CD's license
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If u are an ED why do u need a CD's license ??. all the years I ran Racing at the Nats I was never asked if I had a CD's license
That was back when you were young. Things have changed...
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To be honest we may not know. I think the question has been seldom asked......
Dave
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This invalidates the results of Nats for which PW was event director, as well as any weddings or baptisms he preformed as ED.
Who won those years? Maybe somebody doesn't have twelve titles after all. And if PW can't produce a birth certificate...I suggest a FISA inquiry.
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(crickets)........
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Today I am reaching out to quite a few former judges, tabulators, pull testers, etc., hoping to fill those slots for this Nats. I am getting a number of 'failed message' returns with outdated emails. If you are one of these folk OR anyone who would like to help crew this time in some capacity please let me know by email ASAP. I prefer this method for both time management and the hearing aids hate the phone these days so I seldom use it. My email: VegasDave4@gmail.com
Thank You.
Dave
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That was back when you were young. Things have changed...
how about a little respect for your Elders
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how about a little respect for your Elders
Bob, as you know, I respect my elders. My respect for you is immeasurable.
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Something I've really noticed: the ladies are all quick to reply and eager to help. (thank you). The guys..............thanks to those who have so far.
#1fanMMG !
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We haven’t held a banquet for the last 2-3 years for a couple reasons. I am thinking about having an OPENING dinner this time the evening of the pilots meeting, before we all get too wound up in contest week. I hope we can find a restaurant that can handle our group and you will just order and pay as individuals. Allen Goff is helping to find a venue.
Dave
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Dave, Kathleen and I still plan to help with tabulating and judging, and I know some of the other gals in DVIII will be volunteering in the areas of tabulating and running scores. Kathleen and I will volunteer again to run the CLASSIC/ NOSTALGIA-30, and OTS events if needed. I think I will also be a judge, or whatever with Bob Brookins in the Intermediate NON-Sanctioned event on the Sunday.
Doug
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Doug and Kathleen Thank You! You can always be counted upon.
Dave
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As of this evening we have half the judges, 3 of 4 pull testers, 4 of 5 or 6 gals in the tab trailer, all unofficial event directors on board, one of two or ? computer gurus. Have not determined appearance judges yet. Also have 1 of two field helpers to patch cracks and other odd jobs. Keep it coming folks!
Thanks!
Dave
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Bump.
Derek
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My count right now has eight judges so far. Last year we had 14. I’m hearing we may have a very good turnout with a few flying who haven’t for a while. This also includes about three of our regular judges who are flying this time. That means we need a few NEW judges to come forward.........
Dave
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Still looking for five more to judge, one pull tester, one more gal for the tab trailer.........Come spend some time in Muncie with us....
Dave
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Folks we are still looking for about four more brave souls to step up and judge. If you haven’t judged at the Nats before please don’t worry. Mark will get you trained and offer any coaching you may want. If you are coming to spectate or enter non- official events, consider giving this a try. We are beginning to realize as our group is growing older we need to bring up a new batch of judges to cover the bases.
If it helps, AMA is going to announce that for the first time, they will wave the $50 basic registration fee for first- time Nats goers this year.
It seems to have fallen to me to be the ED this year. I am trying to plan an WELCOMING dinner for Monday evening. We are looking at options ranging from pizza at the LPad to a catered event at Ball State University. I am trying to keep the cost reasonable but yet have a good social gathering.
Please come join us and help out if you can.
Thanks!
Dave
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Update: We will have a Welcoming Banquet Monday evening July 13, 6:00 pm at Ball State University, Cardinal Hall. This will be buffet style with Italian lasagna, pasta, salads and breads. Tickets will be about $18.00 and includes gratuity. You may buy your tickets at the pilot's meeting at the 180 building Monday afternoon.
Once again we will be asking for donations in two ways:
The trophy fund; a few of the trophies are purchased by the AMA based upon the number of entries for each event. The rest are purchased with donations. The cost for our part in the last couple years was about $800.00. It could run a little more this time because the AMA isn't making them in house anymore and is working out an arrangement with an outside source. I will post a separate thread soon for that. We are in the process of adding Visa and MasterCard to the PAMPA website to send money there in addition to (and potentially in place of ) PayPal. You will be able to donate there or simply send a check to us earmarked for that fund.
The judges GoFundMe fund; is already up and running. This was done for the first time last year and garnered about $1200.00 to help our judges and crew with some of their expenses. Donate early-and often!
All for now.......
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Update: We will have a Welcoming Banquet Monday evening July 13, 6:00 pm at Ball State University, Cardinal Hall. This will be buffet style with Italian lasagna, pasta, salads and breads. Tickets will be about $18.00 and includes gratuity. You may buy your tickets at the pilot's meeting at the 180 building Monday afternoon.
Once again we will be asking for donations in two ways:
The trophy fund; a few of the trophies are purchased by the AMA based upon the number of entries for each event. The rest are purchased with donations. The cost for our part in the last couple years was about $800.00. It could run a little more this time because the AMA isn't making them in house anymore and is working out an arrangement with an outside source. I will post a separate thread soon for that. We are in the process of adding Visa and MasterCard to the PAMPA website to send money there in addition to (and potentially in place of ) PayPal. You will be able to donate there or simply send a check to us earmarked for that fund.
The judges GoFundMe fund; is already up and running. This was done for the first time last year and garnered about $1200.00 to help our judges and crew with some of their expenses. Donate early-and often!
All for now.......
Thanks for stepping up Dave, and thanks for putting together a banquet. The Barry's will make the rookie of the year prop, as we have done for the past 7-8 years.
Derek
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If the Nats does happen (I know many states are opening up in the next couple weeks), When should people arrive. I would hope to fly classic and judge PA. Banquet Monday night. Would arriving Monday be reasonable, or does something happen Sunday? Everything finishes Saturday afternoon, correct?
Last nats I attended was Reno 84 and I was 9.
Also, is there a poorman's page where people look for roomates to split the room cost?
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David, poor man's page? Well you are on it! Provided the Nats will still go the action actually begins the first Sunday with Beginner and Intermediate. It is critical EVERYONE in there Monday for the Pilot's meeting and Appearance judging (STILL LOOKING FOR APPEARANCE JUDGES). I hope to still have the Banquet but will have to see where everything is with the university/virus, etc. I will also need to believe we will have enough turn out to make it feasible.
As per usual Classic, Old Time and N30 will happen on Tuesday. Open and Advanced will begin Wednesday. We believe it probable the turn out could be smaller than usual. We have formulated possible adjustments into the schedule depending on what level of entry we have. It is possible we will fly four qualifying rounds on Wednesday instead of two Wednesday and two Thursday. If we do that we will fly the semi-finals on Thursday and the Top 4-5-6 on Friday along with Junior and Senior. Final entry will dictate that option, and we can't really know entirely until the close of entries at the Pilot's meeting Monday.
If the Nats goes on, we will do our best to run as 'normally' as we can but this will be a very different Nats than we've ever known so we will adjust and do our best. If it happens, we will fly, we will have fun! Then we will hope for something closer to normal next year. With the postponement of the Worlds this year I'd think our full team will likely be with us-a piece of good news. The fact they did postpone the Worlds which was scheduled a month AFTER the Nats might not bode well for the Nats if that has any weight in AMA's decision.
Dave
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they are going to make a decision on the nats on JUNE 10 but we need to get entries in by JUNE 1st to avoid a Penalty ????
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Good question...I've messaged HQ for clarification and to see if they will move the penalty date to July 1st. I completely understand people wanting to wait until they know what is going on. However when and if they DO decide to go on with I will ask, beg, everyone to get signed up ASAP so that we can RUSH the plans on through with regards to trophies, banquet, etc. I will need a clue as to turnout to get our act together. Also remember AMA pays for a certain (limited) number of the trophies based upon ADVANCE ENTRIES by the penalty date. The rest are on us. If you wait till the last minute-well it's not helpful.
Dave
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I sent an Email to AMA yesterday expressing my concern that they would cancel and got this reply from Joyce Hagar this morning FWIW-----------Thanks for your input. At this point we are going forward with all the plans we normally do for a Nats. It is not AMA intention to the cancel the Nationals but we do have to wait and see how the governor handles Muncie’s opening. I really feel by June everything will be back to whatever the new normal will be. Stay safe
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I might suggest that AMA promise a 100% refund policy in the event The Nat is cancelled.
That way we could go ahead and enter in the hope that the show goes on.
Here in Michigan, our power-crazed governess is so impressed with he self-proclaimed authority, she will NEVER end her "state of emergency". I hope that Indiana and some of our neighbors take a more rational approach.
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Well Scale for RC and CL just got cancelled. NOTICE: THE 2020 AMA SCALE NATIONALS BOTH RC AND CL SCALE HAS BEEN CANCELLED. From Mike Barbee: The board members and officers of NASA have unanimously voted and decided to cancel the 2020 Scale R/C & C/L Nationals. This decision was made because of the risk of the Covet 19 virus and time and financial constraints brought on by the virus to competitors and spectators. We believe that this is both a logical and safe decision. We are however still planning on the NASA Scale Classic to be held September 10-13th at AMA. The qualification process for this event will NOT be in effect. Everyone is invited to come out and participate in this season end event. We will keep close watch on Government mandates and recommendations leading up to this time.
Thank you and stay safe and responsible.
Mike Barbee President NASA
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So an answer came about the late entry fee: they pushed it out to June 12th. Thus, if they say “go” on the 10th you have two days (and a weekend) to get entered before the late fee is charged...don’t shoot the messenger.
Dave
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thanks Dave. I still haven't heard back from ama
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2 days ?
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I also was a little surprised . The answer came in a group email since it appears a number asked the same question. Scale already backed out and I sense another SIG or two is thinking about it. ALL the SIGs including ours are hearing from some of our members they likely will stay home even if the Nats goes on because it seems it will still be too much of a risk to take to travel and perhaps get sick-and be hundreds of miles away from home and their support system. IMAC has suggested the late fees be waived altogether as well as other concessions to the pilots under the circumstances but I would be surprised if that happens. It seems to me and others that if this comes off, it will be not representative of any Nats we've seen. As the states attempt to open some it is obvious we will see another swell in infection, prolonging the issue. More updates will surely come..........BTW AMA did say that if they cancel ALL fees will be refunded. It seems they may want to get most the pre-entries in as possible so they can gauge the probable turnout-maybe before they make that final decision.
Dave
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Thanks for your efforts, Dave, much appreciated! D>K
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I agree that you are doing a commendable job Dave.
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Dave already mentioned this but...NATS Registration.. just an FYI I registered Samuel today because Jrs. are free so I figured what the heck get him in early. Yolanda informed me that anyone who registers and pays before the decision date of June 10 will be given for a full refund for all fees if the Nats are cancelled. She said the pre-registration numbers are pretty close to last year at this time, just a little lower. She is encouraging people to pre-register and not wait until the June 10 decision.
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Mike that's fine with me of course. It all helps to see where we are going. I know though many will wait before they get their wallet out and I don't blame them for that either. This is just, well, all sort of messed up right now to know what to do. We will just have to see how it plays out but I do encourage any who intend to come to go ahead and get signed up and give all of us some clarity. You WILL get your money back if they cancel.
Dave
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just thought I would throw this in. if it is a go, do we know if old time will be on the cow pasture ( just kidding) or the L pad
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Bob that is usually a matter of how wet the grass is. I think most would prefer that in the grass but I could be wrong and we COULD move that and Classic/N30 to the pad if that's what the 'herd' wants to do.....We can fly on one and two and leave three and four for Advanced/Open practice as we have a couple times recently when the pasture was a mud hole. If it's hot I know the grass is much cooler than the blacktop but we can do either.
Dave
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just thought I would throw this in. if it is a go, do we know if old time will be on the cow pasture ( just kidding) or the L pad
Unless there is an unusual amount of rain (which there definitely has been at times), with proper surface prep, the "cow pasture" is actually a very nice site, and I would prefer to do the entire contest down there. If nothing else, it's a lot easier on the judges than standing out on that hot blacktop all week. But, if it does rain excessively, then, yes, even getting there without getting stuck in the mud can be an issue. David and I never even went down there in 2015.
Brett
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just thought I would throw this in. if it is a go, do we know if old time will be on the cow pasture ( just kidding) or the L pad
Bob, in all likelihood, we will have OTS and CLASSIC/N-30 on the grass circles if it is dry enough. We will run the CLASSIC/N-30 events in the morning and following a short break run the OTS event . We will try to get the grass trimmed a little shorter than last year. There were a few OTS and Classic planes that took a number of times to get in the air. I hope we don't get hit with a storm front like we did last year. The wind gave the fliers genuine hell. Many passed, but kudos to the guys that stuck it out. One of the guys even put up a pretty respectable pattern flying in some of the worst wind gusts I've seen in along time!! I believe it was Mike Schmidt.
Now all we need is the decision to have the rest of the NAT'S. I'll post a complete flyer later.
Doug
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my vote is for grass
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The NSRCA, RC pattern special interest group (SIG) has announced they are cancelling RC Pattern for this 2020 Nats due to the Covid pandemic and it's aftermath...........FYI.
Dave
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Another late development- I just received an email from Ball State. They are saying due to the Covid virus they will not be able to host our group for the banquet. I just asked them to cancel our reservation. At this point I think it may not be advisable to pursue trying to hold it elsewhere. I hope to try it with them again next year. ( In cooperation with whomever will be the ED next year)
Dave
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Sounds like it would be a genuine crap shoot for any gathering at any established eatery. If they do proceed with the stunt NATS, sounds like a big order to best local pizza place and ice creamery would be in order and for me that would be fine no mater what the world situation is! A nice , calm evening, food to eat, friends to BS with! Fly, eat, shoot the breeze, repeat as needed and not necessarily in that order until the sun goes down and the skeeters drive you off!! I wan't planning on attending but for those that really want to fly I hope it can come off in some way, shape or form.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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the racing boys order Pizza and use the school room next to the museum
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Something similar was an early suggestion. My thought however is/was that the banquet is as much a function for the gals as it is the guys and a chance to shed the oily duds for something clean and enjoy friends in an air conditioned, entertaining atmosphere. In other words "A LITTLE CLASS PLEASE'.......:-)).. It looks like now it will be BYO pizza pie........actually now I won't take any bets against cancellation altogether.
Dave
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Another late development- I just received an email from Ball State. They are saying due to the Covid virus they will not be able to host our group for the banquet. I just asked them to cancel our reservation. At this point I think it may not be advisable to pursue trying to hold it elsewhere. I hope to try it with them again next year. ( In cooperation with whomever will be the ED next year)
Just as an observation, I don't think we can practically operate the contest while doing "social distancing" and/or wearing masks, so if those are part of the plan or is required by the AMA, I can't see how it's going to work out.
Brett
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Well I'm also not sure how the Pilot's meeting would go nor the annual PAMPA meeting at HQ. I'm wondering if the 180 is even possible for us. In short the options are few and things look quite hard to do, at least anything close to normal. I will be totally honest with everyone; if I felt this was entirely up to me I'd have cancelled it a month ago. Just waiting for AMA to act responsibly. It seems some of the other SIGs are not waiting and just forcing the issue. I think about all thats left is RC Pylon, CL and outdoor FF which is to happen two weeks after our event.
Dave
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Well I'm also not sure how the Pilot's meeting would go nor the annual PAMPA meeting at HQ. I'm wondering if the 180 is even possible for us. In short the options are few and things look quite hard to do, at least anything close to normal. I will be totally honest with everyone; if I felt this was entirely up to me I'd have cancelled it a month ago. Just waiting for AMA to act responsibly. It seems some of the other SIGs are not waiting and just forcing the issue. I think about all thats left is RC Pylon, CL and outdoor FF which is to happen two weeks after our event.
Dave
If they push the social distancing thing, how can you have a caller for a pylon pilot do his job effectively standing 6 feet away and or wearing a mask. They are usually standing right behind and talking right into the pilots ear. Two weeks separation to the F/F portion isn't very long but other than for processing models at entry, they can spread out a bit. The long and short of it is the mind set of those who intended to participate and their willingness to do so now? What a crazy year this has been so far. I wasn't planning to attend, and my biggest problem right now is trying to figure out the State of Missouri's unemployment policies at this point to keep my unemployment benefits going until I get called back, find a new job (at age 64!) or retire in October when I turn 65. It seems like a LONG way to October!
Good Luck and Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Dan the realization is that quite a few of us are in that most dangerous age bracket for Covid and the idea of traveling right now might seem challenging-h#!! going to the grocery store seems threatening. We all love our sport but this cost might be too high this time. I've heard from of a number of our group who have already made the choice to stay home, not to mention those like yourself who have lost income and this year is not in the cards for them. I work in a retail store environment and it is disturbing when certain customers want to 'belly up' to you before speaking. We wear signs asking for 6 feet please- seems folks don't read or care. You ask yourself if this is the (XX#@) who gives it to you. Well at least I'm working-and getting some combat pay-but retirement looks better every day. I'm 66 in November..........I had planned to go another couple years but maybe its not any more a chance worth taking. Yes the idea of finding a new job with so many younger, healthier, lower wage workers desperate for a job is not bright. I hope you well in multiple ways...
Dave
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David, poor man's page? Well you are on it! Provided the Nats will still go the action actually begins the first Sunday with Beginner and Intermediate. It is critical EVERYONE in there Monday for the Pilot's meeting and Appearance judging (STILL LOOKING FOR APPEARANCE JUDGES). I hope to still have the Banquet but will have to see where everything is with the university/virus, etc. I will also need to believe we will have enough turn out to make it feasible.
As per usual Classic, Old Time and N30 will happen on Tuesday. Open and Advanced will begin Wednesday. We believe it probable the turn out could be smaller than usual. We have formulated possible adjustments into the schedule depending on what level of entry we have. It is possible we will fly four qualifying rounds on Wednesday instead of two Wednesday and two Thursday. If we do that we will fly the semi-finals on Thursday and the Top 4-5-6 on Friday along with Junior and Senior. Final entry will dictate that option, and we can't really know entirely until the close of entries at the Pilot's meeting Monday.
If the Nats goes on, we will do our best to run as 'normally' as we can but this will be a very different Nats than we've ever known so we will adjust and do our best. If it happens, we will fly, we will have fun! Then we will hope for something closer to normal next year. With the postponement of the Worlds this year I'd think our full team will likely be with us-a piece of good news. The fact they did postpone the Worlds which was scheduled a month AFTER the Nats might not bode well for the Nats if that has any weight in AMA's decision.
Dave
So, if things go on, what time on Monday does the meeting happen. AM or PM?
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David the typical meeting time is 2:00 or 2:30 in the afternoon. I will publish the full-week schedule if we get the go ahead on June 10th. If the 180 building is out, It would probably happen at the museum education building or even outside since we need space to do appearance judging and we could spread out.
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I wasn’t planning to attend the NATS. In fact, I’ve never attended a NATS, but it’s on my bucket list.
I recently turned 60. Not a spring chicken by any measure. But when I go to a contest I look around and it’s very evident that I’m one of the young guys in the hobby.
Rather than struggling to do EVERYTHING we can to make the NATS happen, we should make the responsible decision to protect everyone’s health and cancel this year. Many people are struggling financially right now, so likely won’t be able to attend. Many are going to decide on their own to stay away to protect themselves. The remaining people who have the means to attend and are comfortable doing so will be a small portion of previous years’ participants. Looking at it from an economy of scale perspective, it’s a whole lot of cost and effort to put on an event for such a limited audience.
Cancel now and put it to rest.
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So in today’s episode AMA sent an email to the remaining SIGs to more or less warn them that they don’t have the authority to cancel-that’s up to the Executive Council who will decide on the 10th. Don’t know what that means for the SIGs who already did. Will they lose their status? Will the AMA attempt to run those events themselves? Actually their position I think is correct. The Nats IS their contest. Watch this space.....
Dave
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So in today’s episode AMA sent an email to the remaining SIGs to more or less warn them that they don’t have the authority to cancel-that’s up to the Executive Council who will decide on the 10th. Don’t know what that means for the SIGs who already did. Will they lose their status? Will the AMA attempt to run those events themselves? Actually their position I think is correct. The Nats IS their contest. Watch this space.....
Dave
Do you think the AMA will see that SIG’s are cancelling the NATS, or wanting to cancel, and go ahead and bag the whole year? I would love to go, but don’t think I could justify spending a whole week at a contest where possibly 10-15 people would show up for in open.
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Matt I think the other SIGs backing out is both frustration tha AMA hasn’t pulled the plug and to shame them somewhat into action. Not sure it was wise though. As one of our much honored members said to me, he feels this may turn mostly into a regional contest and the results perhaps not representative of a National Championships. It getting harder to disagree with that statement. This Nats will always have an asterisk next to it regardless of what happens. I don’t want that but don’t know how to change it. If it DOES happen I will be there and don’t wish to discourage anyone from coming. We’ll make the best of it. It already seems many on our EC will miss our ByLaw mandated in-person annual meeting. We will have to wing it with something on line then look to amend the ByLaws to allow remote meetings I guess.
Dave
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So in today’s episode AMA sent an email to the remaining SIGs to more or less warn them that they don’t have the authority to cancel-that’s up to the Executive Council who will decide on the 10th. Don’t know what that means for the SIGs who already did. Will they lose their status? Will the AMA attempt to run those events themselves? Actually their position I think is correct. The Nats IS their contest. Watch this space.....
Dave
If it was the AMA that did all the work, provided all the man power, took care of all the logistics, and covered all of the costs, then that may fit the meaning of "authority " to me. What would they do if the different SIGs just didn't show up? The NATS is the AMA's party, but it's the membership that makes it run. You may have the date and the sight, but if no one shows up, do you have a contest? Sometimes it pays to just cut your losses.The EAA canceling AirVenture is a perfect example. They had no way of knowing what standards and restrictions would be in place, much less know what to do about them, so they figured they would loose far less money by canceling than they would by trying to have some kind of event and they made the decision well in advance. I think it's the same thing with the NATS but on a smaller scale. This virus crap is affecting operations within the hobby the rest of the year and into next year, so why not focus on day to day operations and how you will handle things moving forward? In our club here, we are trying to figure out the rest of our meager contest schedule, and that is proving to be a challenge. After sitting back , looking at things and reading a lot on the whole situation, I think the best thing the AMA could do is cancel and the sooner the better. I'm sure the membership of ALL the SIGs have better things to attend to and can make better use of their time.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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It kinda saddens me to see so many in favor of cancellation. I’m in the higher risk category with multiple heart stents, diabetes and 61 years of age. My business is deemed essential (military manufacturing) so my life essentially hasn’t changed with the exception of no nice restaurants to visit. I also lean towards the BS over-hyped attitude to this whole pandemic crap. My group here at work has been well exposed to it. Six guys have had all the symptoms and all been pretty sick but none were hospitalized and got through it just fine. I’d bet I’ve been well exposed to it as I work regularly with all six guys. I just don’t believe it is nearly as bad as the media would have you believe. From what I’ve read, regular flu deaths are still outpacing Covid fatalities but nobody seems too concerned about that. I don’t mean to sound like an ass or uncaring, I just don’t fear it like some do.
I’m still hoping for Nats 2020 to go on as scheduled. I am registered for Advanced and will register later today for Speed Limit Combat since my Tuesday of Nats week is open.
Matt
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Matt I know there are some who feel as you do. Quite a few others feel differently about it . I think the virus has its own vote. 100,000 lost lives to this among people who likely wouldn’t succumb to the flu-for which there are vaccines - says something else to many.. Many don’t wish to take a chance. In many cases those who DO survive spend weeks sick and perhaps in ICU. Who would want to have to do that many miles from home? Even with insurance the hospital stay might bankrupt many. If this caused the loss of ONE life among our group of friends it would be very difficult to live with. I can only say if we do this this year we will be as defensive against the virus as possible and I will look at everything we do with an eye to keeping us social distanced and be a grump about doing all that’s possible to keep us spaced and safe. That mostly works if everyone understands that their actions aren’t about choices they make for themselves but about not violating the choices others have made for their safety.
Dave
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I can only say if we do this this year we will be as defensive against the virus as possible and I will look at everything we do with an eye to keeping us social distanced and be a grump about doing all that’s possible to keep us spaced and safe.
Dave. that concerns me far more than the health risk, it's the impact on the experience that bothers me. If it's so dangerous that we have to significantly alter what we do, it's too dangerous to go on.
I don't think it *is* too dangerous to more-or-less go as we always do, but if you or the AMA think otherwise, and we will be hounded all week about masks and people screaming "6 feet!!!!!* every 10 minutes, it's a miserable experience that is not worth $4000 and a week of driving.
No offense, but I don't want you, the AMA, the Governor of Indiana, telling me how to conduct myself at a model airplane contest "for my own good". If individuals feel it is too dangerous to participate as normal, fine, then I would never tell them to put themselves at risk. I have had to deal with the impact to *my* life* by people in my life making that decision, but I respect it, and wouldn't take it upon myself to tell them they are wrong.
By the same token, I don't want other people deciding for me that I cannot enjoy myself or will be made miserable by people appointing themselves as my guardian. I know the risks, I accept them, I will do what I think is necessary and prudent for *me*, as long as everyone else also accepts the same risk, then we need no further protection by external entities.
Brett
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Dave. that concerns me far more than the health risk, it's the impact on the experience that bothers me. If it's so dangerous that we have to significantly alter what we do, it's too dangerous to go on.
I don't think it *is* too dangerous to more-or-less go as we always do, but if you or the AMA think otherwise, and we will be hounded all week about masks and people screaming "6 feet!!!!!* every 10 minutes, it's a miserable experience that is not worth $4000 and a week of driving.
No offense, but I don't want you, the AMA, the Governor of Indiana, telling me how to conduct myself at a model airplane contest "for my own good". If individuals feel it is too dangerous to participate as normal, fine, then I would never tell them to put themselves at risk. I have had to deal with the impact to *my* life* by people in my life making that decision, but I respect it, and wouldn't take it upon myself to tell them they are wrong.
By the same token, I don't want other people deciding for me that I cannot enjoy myself or will be made miserable by people appointing themselves as my guardian. I know the risks, I accept them, I will do what I think is necessary and prudent for *me*, as long as everyone else also accepts the same risk, then we need no further protection by external entities.
Brett
Some people have a gift of getting points across so much better than me! Thank you Brett!
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Most people will be safer at AMA Field in Indiana than the place where you live.
It will be hot, windy and out in the natural air.
I, for one, will find it refreshing to get out from under Governess Whitmer for a week. Hunkering-down has never solved a problem or won a war.
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My main focus is upon situations where we cluster indoors. We may not have any indoor venues to operate in anyway if safety guidelines are in effect. That’s why we lost Ball State. They couldn’t have our group indoors. That may also be true of the 180 building and AMA HQ. Even though I will have the trailer there I won’t pack those ladies in there to tabulate. We will put tables up on the pavilion in the open air. Also packing the crowd around the scoreboard may create issues. Out on the field in the breeze I’m not too concerned. What we will do is follow any prevailing rules. I don’t want anyone sick and I don’t want PAMPA sued for endangerment.
Dave
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What we will do is follow any prevailing rules.
I think everyone is OK with that as a plan, and I generally agree with your concerns. What we need, then, is a *clear and explicit* description of whatever rules will be in place, long before the fact, so we can make informed decisions, pro or con, as to whether it is either safe enough or unrestricted enough to make such a trip worth the (extreme) effort.
But going to all the effort to get there, then finding it to be an unacceptable or unworkable plan, maybe announced at the pilot's meeting, is far, far too late.
In any case, it is *not your problem* if someone gets sick, as long as they have accepted a risk. There is an *extremely high* likelihood that doing this, will, in fact, result in someone getting exposed and maybe sick from it. No solution will be entirely free of risk, you might have someone who gets it at the gas station on the way out of town to get there. Every single NATS(and all other human endeavor) has accepted some risk of something similar or worse - infectious disease was not invented 2 months ago, this isn't even wildly out of the ordinary (aside from the reaction to it), or the most frightening (polio), or the most likely (a car crash on the way to or from).
If someone is not willing to accept that risk, or you and the AMA aren't willing to face any risk at all, call it off right now, because "no risk" is not one of the options, any more than any other year.
Don't get me wrong, there is a real risk, higher-than-normal, and if that is unacceptable, we should not proceed. If it will only go on with elaborate work-arounds, then let us know in time to make a decision one way or another.
Brett
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I learned today from my Union Rep that our current work schedule may go on until August 1st. That being said, with the schedule I’m working, I could make it this year and not lose a bunch of leave. But I’m also with Brett and would want to make sure it’s going to be the NATS that I love! And I want to make sure it’s worth going through the overdue effort to buff out my plane for appearance judging!
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I would think that the rules we will be asked to live by will be determined by the State of Indiana and perhaps the City of Muncie. Nobody should be asking any more than that. The AMA may have a few things specific to their property but I would say not unreasonable. The rest to me is just common sense being exhibited in public places and businesses. The very fact that we will be coming from and traveling through all parts of the country , covid hot and covid cool, where it's possible to pick the virus up and bring it with us makes it important we try to act accordingly. Sure somebody may get this stuff no matter what we do but we have to try our best not to be a part of the problem.
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I think everyone is OK with that as a plan, and I generally agree with your concerns. What we need, then, is a *clear and explicit* description of whatever rules will be in place, long before the fact, so we can make informed decisions, pro or con, as to whether it is either safe enough or unrestricted enough to make such a trip worth the (extreme) effort.
But going to all the effort to get there, then finding it to be an unacceptable or unworkable plan, maybe announced at the pilot's meeting, is far, far too late.
In any case, it is *not your problem* if someone gets sick, as long as they have accepted a risk. There is an *extremely high* likelihood that doing this, will, in fact, result in someone getting exposed and maybe sick from it. No solution will be entirely free of risk, you might have someone who gets it at the gas station on the way out of town to get there. Every single NATS(and all other human endeavor) has accepted some risk of something similar or worse - infectious disease was not invented 2 months ago, this isn't even wildly out of the ordinary (aside from the reaction to it), or the most frightening (polio), or the most likely (a car crash on the way to or from).
If someone is not willing to accept that risk, or you and the AMA aren't willing to face any risk at all, call it off right now, because "no risk" is not one of the options, any more than any other year.
Don't get me wrong, there is a real risk, higher-than-normal, and if that is unacceptable, we should not proceed. If it will only go on with elaborate work-arounds, then let us know in time to make a decision one way or another.
Brett
I agree 100%
Derek
P.S. Georgia has been open for a few weeks, and as our testing increases, our new cases and hospitalizations have dropped significantly. Just in case you're not getting real news where you live.
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I would think that the rules we will be asked to live by will be determined by the State of Indiana and perhaps the City of Muncie. Nobody should be asking any more than that. The AMA may have a few things specific to their property but I would say not unreasonable.
That's fine, but I would urge you to treat it just like "Special Rules" for other competition - "The events rules are per event 322, with the following deviations", with any special requirements that would be necessary, published long ahead of time. What can't happen is a "made up on the spot" or unannounced rules or "ED discretion", because every time we have done it has been to our detriment.
If not, there is no written rule against it, the competitor can conduct themselves as they see fit, and the AMA or the contest officials get no say in the matter, nor can they try to nag people into it.
I am well aware that you might not know, or be able to know, very much ahead of time, in which case the competitor will be buying a "pig in a poke", and in many cases, an extremely expensive, potentially dangerous (if you think there is a danger), and potentially very frustrating, pig in a poke.
Brett
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I have missed the last several NATS even though I enjoy meeting the people I know. Why not say this year, 2020, is a bust and skip the doubt and cancel the aerobactic portion of the NATS. The people in government keep extending the lock down for a few things. Plan on a bigger NATS for 2021. For 2020, attend the local contests that may be held or just get out and fly for the fun of it. just thoughts from an old man. S?P
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Doc I've said I think that would be my choice given everything. The Nats is a HUGE THING to me and really a let down if it doesn't happen but it seems the dominoes have all fallen the wrong direction for this. However unlike some of the other SIGs, I don't think this should be our call to make. I HAVE made my own thoughts known to them a while back. Even so we will do our best to go along with AMA. I don't wish to risk our status as the CLPA SIG. I believe the big RC SIGs carry enough weight ($) with AMA they will get a wet noodle on the wrist. Our group is the BIG CL SIG but our numbers aren't close. Lately the AMA in general seems to appreciate CL a little more and I don't want to ruin the good will thats been growing in our favor. We will know in the next couple weeks. If you consider smoke signals, they have made no efforts to inquire , inform, or ask for trophy lists nor answered a question in that regard I asked a few weeks ago. We know they aren't making them now and it requires going to an outside vendor and had hinted early on that the SIGS may have to deal directly with this vendor. As of now it's still a mystery. They DID ask for a list of Official shirts a few weeks ago but said they wouldn't move on that till after June 10th.
Dave
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I am planning on attending the Nats this year, as I have for the past 24 years.
Control Line model airplane flying is pretty much the ultimate in social distancing,
so I am not worried one bit, and I sure as hell don't feel that I need anybody
policing how I conduct myself in public. I agree with Brett's previous post
concerning this 100%.
Steve
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Hello Dave,
I've sent you a PM. Let me know if it went through.
Thanks,
Doug
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I would encourage you if you are going to get to the Nats to go ahead and get registered. The AMA has said they will refund 100% if it is cancelled. Among other things this will help them make decisions and help us plan accordingly. It’s also not too late to volunteer. We have and will lose some of our regular crew and will be short. If you are willing to step up and let us know.......
Dave
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Dave, thank you for doing all you can to protect our interests. There have been some very wise thoughts shared on this thread.
I believe there are four issues causing the AMA to wait until June 10. One of course is what the Governor determines for the State.
Two, I am merely guessing the business side of AMA needs revenue like all other businesses in the world, especially now. Three is concerned with how many competitors are likely to participate. And finally, the latest data about the trends in the virus including the experiences of states that have relaxed their restrictions.
The only thing that seems consistent is uncertainty. I would encourage any pilot who may attend to register now. The registration fees are 100% refundable if the event is in fact cancelled. I personally believe it will be but I have registered. By registering, at least we give the AMA some data that may be helpful to them in their final decision.
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I have registered for Advanced. I was going to register for speed limit combat. When I went on AMA site, there is a $50 combat registration as well as a $10 event registration. Is this correct? Last time I officially entered the Nats, there was a Nats registration fee and then an individual event fee. I thought that when I registered for Advanced, I thought it was $50 for Nats and $45 for the event. I assumed the $50 Nats fee would cover both PA and combat. Anybody know if this is not the case? I’m not really properly prepared for Speed Limit but for the $10 event fee I thought it would be fun. If I have to pay another $50 Nats registration, kinda takes the fun out of it!
Matt
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I have the same problem if I fly racing and stunt $100 in basic entry fees. it didn't used to be that way
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That doesn’t sound right to me- maybe an oversite. Call AMA Monday to clarify. It may be mid week before I’ll get a chance with my work schedule. Let us know!
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Wife tells me Monday is a national holiday. D>K
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Yeah whoops! It’s all running together.
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You are working too hard Dave, slow down and relax more. I got two more flights Thursday and a dorked Ringmaster that is now repaired. D>K
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Yolanda's post gives me pause for concern..she indictated that the state MAY be open 100% by the 4th. If it is not, restaurants can only be 50% occupied. It is bad enough getting in before, if it us half capacity I am not sure how that will work out. Before I commit to make that long trip I will be monitoring that status. Unfortunately, AMA will not know that by June 10th. Not sure what their criteria will be to make that decision. Hope it is more than economics of the AMA.
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I was just reading from the governors website there the other day. He opened to their phase 3 in most of the state last week but kept Marion county (Muncie) back at phase 2 until June 1st because it was still having too many cases. I’m concerned that as they open it up the cases will climb again as it is elsewhere and they will pull back again. Phase 2 allows ( if I recall) no more than 10 in a group most everywhere. The eateries were scaled back much the same. Don’t know anything about the hotels. I got on the Iron Man website to see what they were doing. Apparently nobody there knows what’s going on either and their leadership hasn’t given them any guidance. Geez you can’t just wait till three or four weeks and try to figure it all out!
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Dave, Muncie is in Delaware county. Indianapolis is Marion county.
Matt
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Sorry your right but I was Marion And Delaware I think. I’ll look that up again. In any case we will need to see how opening affects things.
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Dave,
Where can I find the NATS schedule?
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I may have one at home but that doesn’t help. This should be enough info for you for now:
Sunday July 12
Intermediate and Beginner Stunt
Monday July 13
Pilots Meeting and Appearance judging. 2:00 pm
Tuesday July 14
Classic , M30, Old Time
Wednesday July 15
Advanced and Open Qualifying
Thursday July 16
Advanced and Open Qualifying *
Friday July 17
Open Semi finals , Advanced finals
Saturday July 18
Open finals, Junior and Senior Aerobatics
* There is some possibility with a very small turnout we MAY combine Wednesday and Thursday rounds into one day on Wednesday and move the following schedule forward one day and finish Friday instead of Saturday. Last I saw a few days ago we had 20 entries (combined). If the numbers don’t grow much more we may look at that but can’t know for sure until entries are closed.
Dave
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Thanks so much Dave.
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I wonder what driving to the NATS risk is compared to actually getting the Corona virus risk?
P.S. I'm going if there is a NATS this year......
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I wonder what driving to the NATS risk is compared to actually getting the Corona virus risk?
P.S. I'm going if there is a NATS this year......
~37,000 die in car accidents per year in the US
~100,000 have died from CV19 in the last 3 months
But I would say in both cases, you do have some control over your own future, it is not simply bad luck.
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Here's some interesting information, Muncie is in Delaware County: https://www.ballstatedaily.com/article/2020/03/news-delaware-county-indiana-united-states-global-coronavirus-covid-19-cases
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An update for today; this morning I looked at where we are on entries for Official events. ( I have no idea what will happen with Unofficial events)
In open we have 13 entries. Sadly we have lost one of those with the passing of Jerry Haupt. One of the others who entered early has told me he would be doubtful to come with the virus still an issue. That leaves 11 for now. Advanced entries also have 11 for now and we have two Juniors. I think we may get at least one Senior. I haven't done it yet but I will try putting these numbers into the Nats computer program and see what results it gives for the semi finals and Top? Maybe 2-3? We do have a few more days for entries so we will watch that. We still need to get the Event Director for Classic/N-30/and Old Time. That may fall to me as well. I need to contact the other EDs and see where they are.
Finally I received an email today from our Head Judge Mark Overmier and he wished to share with others:
NATS Thoughts
As we are less than two months away from the Nats I thought I would share my thoughts. I really hope we can pull this off but seems more doubtful with each passing day. I think the next month will show if the United States can open up and we can still be relatively safe. I have my doubts.
I go to the Nats not to compete, but for conversation, interaction with other people, and to eat at some fine local restaurants, like the 12th Street Cafe, Cammack Station, and the Chocolate Moose. Take those away and it won't be much fun. I spend a week with friends talking about model airplanes. It is like a reunion as some people I only see at the Nats once a year.
Do I want to go to the Nats, hunker down in my hotel room until it is time to judge, go judge, stay 6 feet away from everyone and go back to hunker down in my room until the next day? No.
We may be able to keep social distancing in effect at the flying field but what about for our pilot's meeting and the appearance judging ? How will we keep social distancing in the pavilion? For the recorders in the trailer? The tents along the fencing are usually packed with people sharing conversation and trying to take a break from the sun.
For the judges:
Our training sessions in the morning will be VERY difficult if we stay six feet apart during the practice flights. Then when we gather to discuss the flight, we need to gather in close just to be able to hear each other.
During actual judging again it would be difficult to stay six feet apart. We all try to be in the right spot to judge. We sometimes run into each other moving around the circle, not watching where we are going as we are focused on the airplane on the circle. Would pilots be okay with judges spaced six feet apart, sitting in chairs and not moving except between flights?
It is hot in Muncie during NATS week in July. Sometimes stifling hot! I think it will be very uncomfortable to be wearing masks while we are sweating out in the hot sunshine.
If we do get sick, do we want to be stuck at a hospital in Muncie, away from friends , relatives and our own doctor?
These are just some thoughts about why we may need to cancel this year. Feel free to share, discuss, or refute!
Mark Overmier
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Ben and I registered today around noon, so that will add two to Advanced and one Sr.
James
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James I saw you in my count today so Advanced stands at 11. Ben was the Senior I didn't see at the time but mentioned above.
Dave
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Since I’m new to competition, what have the average entries been in open and advanced last several years?
As much as I want the Nats to happen, the more people comment, the less I’m looking forward to it. So many have already decided they aren’t willing to make the trip or aren’t looking forward to possible conditions. I don’t want my first real PA Nats to be under this dark cloud and drastically reduced numbers. At the same time, many of us are getting older and may not have that many opportunities left to fly the Nats. I’ve actually been thinking about how long I have left to improve my flying before age starts catching up with me and limiting my ability.
I think one way or another I will be there. I already have the vacation time set. If the Nats don’t happen, I’ll hang out and get some practice for several days.
Matt
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Matt these numbers right now are 1/3rd or a little less what we've had for awhile. I think it was something like 34-35 in Open last year and not sure about Advanced but I'd think mid-twenties. This, if it happens will be a shadow of what normally happens. This is one of the reasons along with the obvious safety issues which I think the most of us understand and appreciate, why some of us think it would be better just to let this one go...But I/we will try to make it happen if AMA decides to go on with it. I may need to consider the practicality of asking the judges and crew to pay and stay for another night for a two-man fly-off or something like that.
It is my hope that NEXT YEAR the next Event Director (it will not be me) will be able to lead a much better contest, maybe closer to normal. To me it seems likely there may not be enough of a viable vaccine for 10 years if ever in our lifetime. Our lives are going to be forever changed with this but maybe once we've learned a little better how to cope with this thing and perhaps at least new and better ways to treat it without near the lethality rate we have now then we can live our lives and have our Nats like we know and love. That is my hope regardless of how it works out this year.
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Mark makes some excellent points.
As Brett has already stated, if there is going to be 6 foot separation and face mask rules enforced, there is no Nats. We can't launch each other, judges can't judge accurately, pilots meeting can't happen, etc...
That being said, I already have my vacation schedule for the Nats week, and if there is one, I will most likely be there. I'm not wearing a mask, so we better get firm answers on that when they decide whether or not to have it.
The most recent report i heard, the mortality rate is .04%. I'll take my chances with the virus before I take that vaccine.
Derek
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Not to belabor the point, I just read the flu death rate (I guess from last flu season) was about .1%. The current Covid death rate is thought to be 5.9% , nearly 6 per 100. Living in the region where quite a few go to the Ozarks each weekend to lake or party, and having seen the videos of the huge party crowds there this past weekend on top each other with no thought of the virus, I'm going to be watching closely what happens in the next few weeks as these 'super spreaders' come back to family and work.
Dave
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I agree with Derek, should the Nats happen I will be there.
I also will not be wearing a mask. I will not live in fear.
Checking the mortality rates for COVID-19 yields several
different results. I just looked at two different sites with one
listing the rate at .4% and the other at 1.3%.
Steve
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Not to belabor the point, I just read the flu death rate (I guess from last flu season) was about .1%. The current Covid death rate is thought to be 5.9% , nearly 6 per 100.
That's of diagnosed cases, which is a tiny, tiny fraction of the actual number of infected. No one has very good statistics on this, and you will only see the worst-case predictions because that is what supports draconian lockdown.
What little real information suggests the infection rate is somewhere around 25-30%, ~90-100,000,000 exposed, for around 100,000 deaths, which is about, as stated above, about 0.1%.
Brett
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I'll be there if we have a NATS. No mask either. Not living in fear either.
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I'll be there if we have a NATS. No mask either. Not living in fear either.
One reason for the success of this virus is that it’s contagious before its host gets symptoms. The reason for wearing a mask is so you won’t kill other people before you develop symptoms. So you guys will drive across the country handling gas pumps and rest area doors, then show up at the Nats without masks. I don’t think propagating the virus is particularly public-spirited or patriotic, but I’ll defend to the death your right to catch it.
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One reason for the success of this virus is that it’s contagious before its host gets symptoms. The reason for wearing a mask is so you won’t kill other people before you develop symptoms. So you guys will drive across the country handling gas pumps and rest area doors, then show up at the Nats without masks. I don’t think propagating the virus is particularly public-spirited or patriotic, but I’ll defend to the death your right to catch it.
The chances of catching the virus outside are almost zero! Heat and sunlight kill the virus in short order. However, if you're that worried, i would advise you to stay sheltered in the JCT dungeon.
Derek
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For the organizers, this seems like a Herculean task to get organized given the current COVID-19 related challenges. In watching this thread unfold, I realize that the AMA and organizers are wrestling with how to make adjustments that encourage safety, negate liability, and yet try to maintain the normalcy of the traditional Nats experience/operations. Unfortunately, even if plans are laid that would allow for the event, getting everyone to comply with the safety-related adjustments sounds like a fight waiting to happen with a lot of disgusted people. If the Nats are a go, I encourage people to focus on gratitude for the opportunity to come together for this event in whatever form it takes.
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Brendan thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement. Unfortunately we know this batch of hooligans and vagabonds well enough to expect what we have here. It’s all good-I know they are discussing between them which of them will run this next year and who’s next the year after......
Dave
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Brendan thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement. Unfortunately we know this batch of hooligans and vagabonds well enough to expect what we have here. It’s all good-I know they are discussing between them which of them will run this next year and who’s next the year after......
But Dave, if it gets cancelled, shouldn't you get the joy of leading the 2021 Nats. I would hate for COVID to have killed your opportunity to bask in the glory of successfully pulling off the event. I am sure all of the other guys waiting in line would not want to steal that experience from you.
All jokes aside, you hit the lottery of years to be running things. Thanks for hanging in there with all the "hooligans and vagabonds" clamoring.
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One reason for the success of this virus is that it’s contagious before its host gets symptoms. The reason for wearing a mask is so you won’t kill other people before you develop symptoms. So you guys will drive across the country handling gas pumps and rest area doors, then show up at the Nats without masks. I don’t think propagating the virus is particularly public-spirited or patriotic, but I’ll defend to the death your right to catch it.
Well said. I continue to hear the not afraid comments from various directions (not just this forum). I think it misses the point. I wear a mask but not because of fear. I also wear seatbelts and watch my step. If it was only a matter of personal risk I’d say each to his own. In this case it seems to be shared risk to some extent. Impossible to say how much risk based on the media. Since we don’t know and masks aren’t that much of a bother I wear one. If it turns out to be a pointless effort, it hasn’t cost me that much in time or effort.
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However, if you're that worried, i would advise you to stay sheltered in the JCT dungeon.
The wine cellar at JCT Manor? Good idea. My stunt work has put me way behind in wine consumption. You should stop by and help out. Wear a mask.
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The wine cellar at JCT Manor? Good idea. My stunt work has put me way behind in wine consumption. You should stop by and help out. Wear a mask.
Air travel is cheap right now... How do you drink wine through the mask though?
Derek
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Air travel is cheap right now... How do you drink wine through the mask though?
Derek
Just poke a hole through to allow your Silly Straw to pass through. H^^
When they announced that things would start to open up in my area, a reporter stated that restaurants would have limited seating and masks would be required. She was reminded that you can't east with a mask on. The "oh yeah!" dumb look on her face was hilarious. I'm sure she wasn't told that, but it is what she reported. That's how sh*t gets started.
I look at it this way. We know the numbers are being padded and misrepresented. I have read credible estimates that the accuracy of the testing kits can be as much as 40% off and if someone dies of some other verifiable cause, and they test positive, it's listed as a Covid related death. I figure there are one whole hell of a lot of the population that do not have the virus, like 99.8% . And in contracting it, it is more a less a really bad cold. It doesn't help the fear factor when every time we log onto a computer that we are bombarded with reports on how bad Chris Cuomo is still feeling!! There are a great majority of people that have been isolating at home since early March. that is approaching 3 months, and a typical medical quarantine period is usually 14 days! And at a minimum a vast majority have been isolated with minimum contact for two months. The experts that hey parade out are constantly adjusting their stories. Now it is reported that the virus can not live on surfaces as long as what was earlier reported. They are saying Certain things just to shock and scare people into doing what they want, and it's working. I wonder when the last time was that Faucci actually saw and diagnosed a patient? Most of these people are in administration because the schmoozed their way into those jobs to get out of the hard work. (I would like to use stronger language for this point but it is a family forum!) There is a point where you want to say enough is enough! I had not planned on going to the NATS but stand with those that say if they can not go and participate in the manor that they have for the last umpteen years, shake hand with a hug a friend, have some pizza and ice cream with old buddies and bench fly with and coach some new comers, then why have the event. At the very minimum, having judges stand 6 feet apart through every step of what they are required to do is enough to complicate things .
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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One reason for the success of this virus is that it’s contagious before its host gets symptoms. The reason for wearing a mask is so you won’t kill other people before you develop symptoms. So you guys will drive across the country handling gas pumps and rest area doors, then show up at the Nats without masks. I don’t think propagating the virus is particularly public-spirited or patriotic, but I’ll defend to the death your right to catch it.
Howard,
I appreciate your desire to not spread the virus and I'll defend you're right to wear a mask to the death.
But by your reasoning, your parents should have put a mask on your face shortly after you were born (babies stick their fingers in every source of bacteria and virus which they could pass on to others who might die of said bacteria or virus). Every day of your life you should have worn a mask because every day of your life you could have come in contact or been a carrier of a bacteria or virus that might kill someone else. And by your reasoning you should wear a mask every day for the rest of your life because it just might prevent someone dying from whatever bacteria or virus is killing people that day.
There is a place for face masks. Those with compromised immune systems (those undergoing chemotherapy, for instance), and with underlying conditions that put them at high risk, can wear masks. When our son was taking chemo, we didn't ask the whole country to wear masks. It made more sense for our son to wear a mask (which he did). I willingly wore an N95 mask yesterday when I went into a VA clinic and a VA hospital because at 66 I'm a youngster in VA clinics and VA Hospitals and many of those inside those buildings are at high risk because they are in their 70's and 80's or more.
But sixty thousand people, give or take, die of the flu/pneumonia every year, and despite that fact, not even doctors and nurses have worn masks everywhere they went during the flu season in the past years. And doctors and nurses are the ones most likely to come in contact with those most susceptible to dying of the flu.
So, wear a mask if you like, but ask yourself, "When can I take it off and be absolutely certain I won't possibly pick up something that will kill somebody else?"
Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO
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If you listen and look at real data from any legitimate scientific/medical source it is plain to see that if the virus case count is coming down it is BECAUSE of the social distancing and mask usage -not in spite of it. I'm sorry but this thing has very little meaningful relationship to the flu. It far more contagious. There is NOTHING about any of this that we like. It just seems careless and dangerous to try and ignore it. You can do for yourself anything you like. I like many others am forced to work in the public and daily come into contact with those who have no respect for our choice to try and dodge this bullet and give us some space. We can actually get ticked off about it and the whole staff operates on edge. We are asked to wear our employer-supplied PPE, and sanitize our work space four times per day to keep us healthy and not infect our customers. It's working...........not fun but working........
Dave
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Here's what I'm gathering from California's regulations. If the Nat's were in CA, judges would have to wear masks (which for long periods of time can cause co2 build up). Launcher for the pilot could wear a mask. Pilot's meeting would be via loud speak of some sort, or pilots would have to wear masks if gathered close together. People in room for appearance judging would need to be limited to 25% of room capacity, which probably would be no problem from what I've seen, or else wear masks. Basically, if you're 6' apart, no need for mask. If that's not possible--mask. If indoor, then 25% of capacity is okay. This is according to CA's rules for business and services reopening.
Just thought I'd throw that out.
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Here's what I'm gathering from California's regulations. If the Nat's were in CA, judges would have to wear masks (which for long periods of time can cause co2 build up). Launcher for the pilot could wear a mask. Pilot's meeting would be via loud speak of some sort, or pilots would have to wear masks if gathered close together. People in room for appearance judging would need to be limited to 25% of room capacity, which probably would be no problem from what I've seen, or else wear masks. Basically, if you're 6' apart, no need for mask. If that's not possible--mask. If indoor, then 25% of capacity is okay. This is according to CA's rules for business and services reopening.
Just thought I'd throw that out.
Or you could move it to Georgia and run it normally.
Derek
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Or you could move it to Georgia and run it normally.
Derek
DAT'S a good idea Derek! We have a mini-version in Canton-Aug.
Doug
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This seems to be the feeling....
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This seems to be the feeling....
LL~
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This seems to be the feeling....
LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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I was talking with Yolanda at AMA today. In order to keep the group out of tight indoor spaces we will have one of the big tents like they use over on the RC fields set up at the LPad for our pilots meeting and appearance judging. May also have the PAMPA meeting there. The rest of the week it can be our ‘work hanger’ I guess.
Dave
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Dave,
Make sure they don't set it up ON the L-pad #^
Rick
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Rick we could fly some ‘indoor’.
Dave
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I was talking with Yolanda at AMA today. In order to keep the group out of tight indoor spaces we will have one of the big tents like they use over on the RC fields set up at the LPad for our pilots meeting and appearance judging. May also have the PAMPA meeting there. The rest of the week it can be our ‘work hanger’ I guess.
Dave
Dave,
Any thought on where would be best to keep the airflow similar to what we have been used to?
John
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I figure to put it on the grass in the middle of the circle drive if it will fit, behind the pavilion from the pad. Might be too big. If so then likely on the other side of the road in the grass just east? of the gravel lot. I don't think it will cause any wind issues there.
Dave
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I figure to put it on the grass in the middle of the circle drive if it will fit, behind the pavilion from the pad. Might be too big. If so then likely on the other side of the road in the grass just east? of the gravel lot. I don't think it will cause any wind issues there.
Dave
I agree, the place where the scouts use to set up would be great, if it will fit.
Thanks for the updates Dave.
Derek
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The irony being missed is the virus cannot live in temps over 78F and high humidity. Being out doors is the safest place to be. Ultra violet kills germs, the sun gives of a LOT of UV.The chances of geyting Covid 19 out doors in the summer is minimal. All my life I have read and been told,get lots of fresh air and sunshine, it's healthy. Indoors is NOT healthy. H^^
I have heard this as well. But how does this fact sit with Brazil and Australia who were at the height of their summer when this broke out. Brazil is now in bad ways. How did the heat help them?
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Hey Dave, There was a huge tent set up in the grass area you are referring to in 2004 for the World competition and they left it up for the Nats that followed. It was like a big circus tent. Plenty big enough for what you need. Some one at headquarters should remember which tent it was or where it came from. Wish I could make it this year.
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Here's what I'm gathering from California's regulations. If the Nat's were in CA, judges would have to wear masks (which for long periods of time can cause co2 build up). Launcher for the pilot could wear a mask. Pilot's meeting would be via loud speak of some sort, or pilots would have to wear masks if gathered close together. People in room for appearance judging would need to be limited to 25% of room capacity, which probably would be no problem from what I've seen, or else wear masks. Basically, if you're 6' apart, no need for mask. If that's not possible--mask. If indoor, then 25% of capacity is okay. This is according to CA's rules for business and services reopening.
Just thought I'd throw that out.
What is the main reason for wearing a mask? Ask those that work in thee operating room of a hospital. Also those that work in emergency room in some situations. It is used by people to keep what ever that person has being transmitted to another person. I attended the local race track last Friday and very few people wearing masks. I have a hard time understanding people with masks when talking to them. If the old saying goes and the socalled [people in the know don't repeat it, "If you feel sick, have a fever, stay home". My wife wears a mask at work because the people who are supposed to know something require it. So if you see me and think I need a mask, just keep your distance. S?P
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I want a mask with a CF frame and some Darma silk. Perhaps somewhere in the framework someone could work in the pampa logo, or F2B. Now who's gonna make it and how much will it cost? Perhaps the silk can be removable with some light titanium or aluminum screws.
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Procrastinators rejoice!
Just visited AMA site and they have extended the NATs entry deadline to 12-June, 2 days AFTER their target decision date of 10-June.
Looks like some of us ( :-[ ) are going to have to finish our new airplanes after all...
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The irony being missed is the virus cannot live in temps over 78F and high humidity. Being out doors is the safest place to be. Ultra violet kills germs, the sun gives of a LOT of UV.The chances of geyting Covid 19 out doors in the summer is minimal. All my life I have read and been told,get lots of fresh air and sunshine, it's healthy. Indoors is NOT healthy. H^^
I tried to find a study that really gives the temperature. I found this
https://www.bing.com/search?q=temperature%20to%20kill%20covid%2019&qs=ds&form=QBRE
and linked back to WHO
https://www.who.int/csr/sars/survival_2003_05_04/en/
The kill temperature may be higher than we tolerate 132.8F° (56°C) for 15 minutes. The 78° may well be °C not F, and I'm already 98.6. Some studies have shown that higher heat will decrease the time of heat exposure. I didn't find much evidence based in actual medical studies.
I found some quotes that sunlight can take Covid virus viability from hours down to two minutes. That sounds great until I think of a single droplet hitting you directly in the eye, mouth or nose only seconds, or less, out of its donors mouth.
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Hey Dave, There was a huge tent set up in the grass area you are referring to in 2004 for the World competition and they left it up for the Nats that followed. It was like a big circus tent. Plenty big enough for what you need. Some one at headquarters should remember which tent it was or where it came from. Wish I could make it this year.
Joe I wish you could make it too. Glad you got past your medical mountain a while back. I know its got to be better for you NOT to push your luck with this D#@N virus.
I got an email from Chad at AMA. I guess the emails many may have gotten from AMA staff recently attempting to push folks into getting entered was not appreciated by the President or the Executive Counsel. This was loose-cannon activity by some staff. He said that the EC is about equally mixed right now on whether to go or not. Though I still think it's premature with regard to the virus I see from the governor's website they plan to open the state 100% on July 4th-about a week before we would arrive, unless of course we see things happen to cause a pull-back. Most everyone i've heard from in our 'family', especially the older of us still think it would be better to cancel. If they don't, WE youngsters will go have a Nats. We've had the Toasted Nats, the Frozen Nats, the Corn Nats and now the Viral Nats. We should build some Delta Darts for the tent like the old days in the Navy hangers........
Dave
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For the"for what it's worth" category, I am subscribed to the Indiana Governor's website and their Dept. of Health. Received today in the email:
The state's disaster declaration was due to expire tomorrow June 4. There has been a spike in new cases since the loosening with the count never really leveling off though the death count has slowed down. Today the Governor extended the disaster declaration until at least July 4th. It's hard to decipher the legal jargon but I think that leaves the stay at home order in place and puts the brakes on restaurants opening for inside dining or at least to full capacity.
Other data: Their testing is up and they are finding a positive result rate of 12.9%.
There are more females with the virus than males.
Cases by age:
30-39 16.3%
40-49 17.2%
50-59 16.5%
Dave
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And OK's results are totally different. Scroll to the bottom for graphs/etc:
https://coronavirus.health.ok.gov/
Andre
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Tick....Tock....Tick....Tock.....!
Dave
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Are the betting windows open for whether the NATS will be a go or not?
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Are the betting windows open for whether the NATS will be a go or not?
Well.. Covid is over right?
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I note again - we need to know *exactly*, explicitly, what we will be expected to do and what special rules we will be expected to follow. Already, they are planning for some sort of "social distancing" - otherwise, why we would we need the tent - so I am even more concerned about what they are thinking.
I want it to happen, but I want it to happen in a way that we can enjoy, rather than be an ordeal. It is not at all important to have a miserable week of being nagged just to give out a trophy.
Brett
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Maybe like our local race tracks the distancing is up to the individuals. I asked one gentleman why the masked. He stated he had a cold and did not want to spread the germs. I thanked him. The people in the concession area using masks and gloves. As stated before if you are sick stay home or protect other prople with mask and gloves. S?P
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Maybe like our local race tracks the distancing is up to the individuals. I asked one gentleman why the masked. He stated he had a cold and did not want to spread the germs. I thanked him. The people in the concession area using masks and gloves. As stated before if you are sick stay home or protect other prople with mask and gloves. S?P
The WHO and others are reporting that there is essentially no transmission by asymptomatic cases, so, if you are sick, stay at home, otherwise, we should be going about our business.
Brett
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I see today WHO is largely walking that back. It was a single person’s reply to a reporter’s question that got picked up and run away with. They still say it’s mostly unknown and that people can have very slight symptoms for a few days like muscle aches or diarrhea and not realize yet they are infected. In any event we will or should know tomorrow what the EC says- don’t know what time the meeting is or if it will even be in- person. I’m not sure if AMA folks are working from home still. I know the museum and HQ are still closed to visitors. Pretty sure that’s state law under the disaster declaration. I’m sure the EC will also have to consider since the ‘opening’ the cases in the last few days are climbing sharply again from outside Indiana where people are coming from.
The tent is my idea so you can blame me if you wish. We know most transmissions come from being indoors with many other people. This way we are really still outdoors . There is no way to guarantee the 180 or HQ will even be permissible for use at that time and I’m sure they wouldn’t want to deal with sanitation before and after it it was. I realize some, mostly the younger of us aren’t too concerned . Many if not most of the older ones are and have said so in conversation with me. If we make no effort to try to be more safe then you can bet they would stay home. Understand it isn’t ME making any rules. It IS my responsibility to try to make sure that we follow whatever the state and AMA asks us to do. So far all that AMA has said is they would furnish sanitary hand washing stations out on the field. Planning or saying much more until the issue has been decided would be a waste of time. If they say’go’, then I’m sure they will look at it. And, there is a crucial month of time in between where the situation could change rapidly. As of right now most ‘outdoor entertainment ‘is still closed or greatly curtailed there. So...we wait.
Dave
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The WHO and others are reporting that there is essentially no transmission by asymptomatic cases, so, if you are sick, stay at home, otherwise, we should be going about our business.
Brett
Was it Pete or Roger that said that?
H^^
Andre
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Was it Pete or Roger that said that?
Hope we don’t get fooled again.
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Looks like any hope for myself or any other Canadian’s is over. Just heard the borders will remain closed to the end of July (and very likely longer). Not yet confirmed, but word on the street is it will be announced in the next day or two. This also means the loss of one of your judges.
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Now that IS sad news Chris. We will miss you both.........Maybe you should get a green card......:-)). We got to get this figured out and get back to 'normal'. I hadn't even thought about the border being closed.
Dave
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Dave,
Do you know at what time today they'll announce "go" or "no go" on the Nats?
Joe Ed Pederson
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No Joe Ed, we are watching for the white or black smoke from HQ.
Dave
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Dave,
Well let us know which it is when it happens. I can't see Muncie from here.
Thanks,
Joe Ed
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No Joe Ed, we are watching for the white or black smoke from HQ.
Dave
It's a go from AMA.
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Saw the clip on FB. On, WITH EXTRA SAFETY PRECAUTIONS.
What ever that is....
Chad didn't say what that was.
They would provide as time goes on.
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Saw the clip on FB. On, WITH EXTRA SAFETY PRECAUTIONS.
What ever that is....
Chad didn't say what that was.
They would provide as time goes on.
Extra precautions include contestants having to wear MOPP 4 gear while on site
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Extra precautions include contestants having to wear MOPP 4 gear while on site
I, for one, will not wear a mask in 90 degree weather. PERIOD.
If that becomes a requirement, I will not attend.
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I, for one, will not wear a mask in 90 degree weather. PERIOD.
If that becomes a requirement, I will not attend.
But Paul, how will you signal your great virtue and show symbolic solidarity with our heroic health care workers?
No masks and no nagging about Social Distancing. Let's see the rules, explicitly. Otherwise, I am not hauling my butt 2400 miles and missing 2 full weeks of work, just to get screeched at by a legion of newly-minted safety monitors and self-styled infectious disease experts. I can get that at home.
Brett
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But Paul, how will you signal your great virtue and show symbolic solidarity with our heroic health care workers?
No masks and no nagging about Social Distancing. Let's see the rules, explicitly. Otherwise, I am not hauling my butt 2400 miles and missing 2 full weeks of work, just to get screeched at by a legion of newly-minted safety monitors and self-styled infectious disease experts. I can get that at home.
Brett
Completely agree, you just say it so much better than I could! LL~ LL~
Matt
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I agree with Paul; I will not wear a mask in order
to compete.
Steve
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I see today WHO is largely walking that back.
Of course they are. How are you going to keep people living in fear (and incidentally, paying a lot of attention to doctors) if there is nothing to fear?
The entire premise of locking up *everyone* was due to asymptomatic cases transmitting it to everyone else, like 300,000,000 Typhoid Marys. If that's not a problem, then, this is no longer a "unique and special case unprecedented in human history", and all you do is quarantine the people who get sick, while the rest of the world is unaffected, just like every other epidemic.
We certainly can't have that.
Brett
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Just talked to Yolanda.
There will be no mask requirement. Period.
The precautions do not affect us much. Registration is moved from the main headquarters to the white Nat's house out back. There will be lots of hand sanitizer around for use. That's all she knew of. AMA is trying to craft an e-mail to send to everyone explaining these issues.
So it is somewhat acceptable.
So Dave: What are the the entry levels currently for Advanced and Open?
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I wear a mask all the time for work when I interact with customers. It doesn't protect me it protects those around me from me should I have something going on. It's almost a respect thing. If go near someone who doesn't wear a mask then they don't give a crap what they could be doing to others around them. At the same time if I go near a customer who isn't wearing a mask then I tend to not wear one either. I tend to let the customer drive that part of the interaction. But we do naturally keep our distance and shaking hands is out of the question. If they prefer I wear one I comply. If they don't then I don't. It's not that big a deal and only comes into play during close contact. Flying with a mask on would be very stupid as it does restrict airflow and it will be hot on the Tarmac. That would not be in the best safety interest of the contestants.
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Chad from AMA on facebook: =68.ARDVdpV3fjqFx-Dw9ouhyuchRurwwUaB0NxVysxPgZu8i0lAtXxQooWTMDc9v1kyZ8vcBAwTFtwPdz60NagOsEQoYqRjWYezhGpsZOhcfJu4lqbrjcNv_ZiUQP_ZiGE-Xi1tbnlcpegj2KP_rkKDdu2rCZIonEQFM37SWEp6a7X_kE4_knNyX70fOgEReLQ16nDNbj8NXIKUwhJuSmp8r6yrXYxjQV5ROHwjMbLVIVsSFmkw29EACYOpqXezIISNw8kLSBBDYy0Q_i4NFA76ydktNUzFbx3PdCwRl2Q8rP65KQ1_kbblWfGbzGk2c9k0&__tn__=K-R]https://www.facebook.com/colleenpierce62/posts/10217300056281925?__xts__[0]=68.ARDVdpV3fjqFx-Dw9ouhyuchRurwwUaB0NxVysxPgZu8i0lAtXxQooWTMDc9v1kyZ8vcBAwTFtwPdz60NagOsEQoYqRjWYezhGpsZOhcfJu4lqbrjcNv_ZiUQP_ZiGE-Xi1tbnlcpegj2KP_rkKDdu2rCZIonEQFM37SWEp6a7X_kE4_knNyX70fOgEReLQ16nDNbj8NXIKUwhJuSmp8r6yrXYxjQV5ROHwjMbLVIVsSFmkw29EACYOpqXezIISNw8kLSBBDYy0Q_i4NFA76ydktNUzFbx3PdCwRl2Q8rP65KQ1_kbblWfGbzGk2c9k0&__tn__=K-R (https://www.facebook.com/colleenpierce62/posts/10217300056281925?__xts__[0)
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Doug that is about where I am personally.
Paul according to the AMA site right now ( and it might change some in the next couple days with this decision) we have:
Open. 17 of which I know two will not be there.
Advanced. 17
I will ask again for any help we can get to judge, tabulate and judge/direct unofficial events. We have lost a few and will be spread very thin. I also have yet to nail down appearance judges. Consider helping out.
Dave
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Doug that is about where I am personally.
Paul according to the AMA site right now ( and it might change some in the next couple days with this decision) we have:
Open. 17 of which I know two will not be there.
Advanced. 17
I will ask again for any help we can get to judge, tabulate and judge/direct unofficial events. We have lost a few and will be spread very thin. I also have yet to nail down appearance judges. Consider helping out.
Dave
Are you asking me to judge appearance?
Would love to...as long as you don't mind me flying as well. Just entered!
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Well that’s not kosher.....but maybe something over in the unofficial side of things....
Dave
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Dave,
I'll be arriving for the Nats on Saturday (the 11th) and leaving on Wednesday the 15th around noon.
I'm entered in Beginner Stunt only.
After flying beginner stunt, I can help with pull tests and running scores from the judges to the tabulators each day until noon on Wednesday.
Looking forward to it,
Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO
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Look me up when you get there Joe Ed. I’m sure I’ll have things to do. I’m short one or two pull testers and will need a small crew to tape up cracks on the LPad etc.
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I'll look you up when I get there. Happy to help with anything but judging.
Joe Ed
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Just FYI another Open contestant has decided to stay home- and our Head Judge- due to Covid safety concerns........
Dave
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Just FYI another Open contestant has decided to stay home- and our Head Judge- due to Covid safety concerns........
Dave
If there are not more than say 25 open contestants, I will likely drop out as well. I will not drive for 3 days for the size of a local contest.
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Sort of the point I made weeks ago (and addressed with the AMA EC).......water under the bridge now. John Paris has stepped up to be a judge. That does cut one of the pre-entries but very welcomed. I believe I will not hold a general PAMPA meeting. Many of the board members will not be in attendance so we will hold an on-line meeting to meet the statute in the ByLaws and the points of the meeting will be posted on the PAMPA website.
Dave
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Currently waiting on work schedule developments for the month of July to know whether or not I can make it. Fingers crossed!
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Chad has reached out to us for a meeting tomorrow. Maybe we will know more about how they plan to address things.
Dave
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Just registered.
Derek
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is classic and M30 sep or combined
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Classic and N30 have traditionally been separate. Registration is showing it this way as well.
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Just registered
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Just registered
Plane repaired already????
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is classic and M30 sep or combined
Hello Mr.Bob, to answer your question CL and N-30 are two separate events flown together as one flight order/2 rounds. It use to be that a competitor had to choose between the two events, and could not fly both. Before I had to back out of this years NAT's I was going to let pilots fly both events if and only if they used different aircraft for each event. This was done to hopefully get more interest in N-30 and give more opportunity to competitors. However, someone else will be handling these events this year and it will be up to them how these events will be formatted. I appreciate Dave T very much for running the NAT's and hope someone will lend a hand. It's really pretty easy to do these three events. The fliers always made things so easy for me. Most of the time I was just in the way! We always had people show up and just start doing anything to help.
I'm going to send Dave some material to use for these events in a few days if needed. I'm always available if someone needs to talk to me. Dave has my contact info., as well as this forum.
Thanks,
Doug
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Doug thanks for this. As it so happens I just got off the phone with Bob Brookins. He will be running the Classic/N30, OT., and as usual the Intermediate this time. I want to thank him and you Doug for all you always do. We may need to get you and Bob together on stuff.....He did ask that folks wait until the Monday pilots meeting to sign up for these events and not get tangled up with Intermediate on Sunday.
Dave
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Another announcement: Wes Eakin will be stepping in as Head Judge for 2020. Thanks Wes!
Dave
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How many advanced/open judges do you currently have?
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Paul I believe we are at 7-8 right now. I haven't touched base with all of them recently so will be doing that in the next couple days to confirm they are coming. We have lost three from what we started with. Another, I will likely have to use as an appearance judge. I don't know about a rule saying a judge couldn't judge both appearance and be a flight judge but don't think we've ever done that that I know of. I may choose to do so if there are no objections among the pilots.
Dave
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That was done last year with the Smith brothers I believe.
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Thank you. I didn’t remember that. I’ll be on that meeting with AMA on my lunch break. I’ll report what I learn this afternoon.
Dave
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Paul I believe we are at 7-8 right now. I haven't touched base with all of them recently so will be doing that in the next couple days to confirm they are coming. We have lost three from what we started with. Another, I will likely have to use as an appearance judge. I don't know about a rule saying a judge couldn't judge both appearance and be a flight judge but don't think we've ever done that that I know of. I may choose to do so if there are no objections among the pilots.
Dave
Sent you a PM Dave.
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Paul I believe we are at 7-8 right now. I haven't touched base with all of them recently so will be doing that in the next couple days to confirm they are coming. We have lost three from what we started with. Another, I will likely have to use as an appearance judge. I don't know about a rule saying a judge couldn't judge both appearance and be a flight judge but don't think we've ever done that that I know of. I may choose to do so if there are no objections among the pilots.
Dave
Dave you could maybe get some one from one of the other events to help. D>K
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I sat through the first hour of the meeting and never got a word in or really learned anything. It’s still going on but I had to get back to work. They never got off the first topic. The SIGs that pulled out are razing smell because some within their groups went around them straight to AMA to say they will go ahead and run the events. Apparently AMA said OK.......... I will learn more later.
Dave
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Dave you could maybe get some one from one of the other events to help. D>K
There may be a couple places we could do that but most jobs I have need experienced help at this level.
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Hi Dave - Wayne & I did judge both appearance judging and flight judging last year, so I know you won’t be setting any precedents by doing that.
Wayne and I are not likely to attend this year, it is a personal decision just as it is for everyone. Because of who we have interaction with, Wayne manages and has close proximity to many elderly people in his work managing a nice commercial condominium down on Bayshore Boulevard & I run a business where many people rely on me, we are not willing to add to the risk we already face for getting infected by Covid-19 by going to the Nats. It could have a large and potentially deadly effect on those we work with. Closer to home, Wayne’s mother-in-law is in her late 80’s and I am in close proximity to my almost 90 year old brother-in-law. We are not thinking of ourselves, as with everyone, we are dying to hit the contest trail, but our feeling is there is always next year when hopefully we have a vaccine.
If it were just Wayne and I, we probably would still not be making the long trip. Driving through states, staying in hotels and eating in restaurants just to arrive at a location where people have gathered from all across our great land doesn’t seem like a great idea at the moment to us. To be frank, after reading the AMA Presidents statement, I am surprised the Nats were not cancelled, lots of liability issues. Like I said, attending this years Nats is a personnel decision. Like Paul, we go to the Nats because of what it is, the greatest contest in the world. Clearly that is not what it is going to be this year, probably just a watered down version dangerous to get to. I know how far it is from Florida, which is a drop in the bucket compared to those who come from out west and beyond.
There seems to be a somewhat pervasive and cavalier attitude here towards Covid-19. Not seeing much discussion about how to run the Nats contest safely, only comments about can we have it. Since States reopened, the Rona is now peaking and raging again in both Arizona and Florida. For those who think themselves immune, ask the 20 year old girl who just had to have a double lung replacement or the 24 year old man who just died yesterday in Florida because of the virus. Arizona intensive care facilities were at 90% yesterday and are in danger of being overwhelmed. The virus is likely to get worse in the coming months before we start to see any more improvement in the situation. The virus likes cold and colder months will be here before long.
For those of you who go, we wish you Godspeed and safe travels, please do your best to stay safe. We love all our flying buddies and would be heartbroken if something happened to anyone. Again, this is a personal decision, so to each his own. For those of you who go, have a great time.
Jim Smith
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Jim thank you so much for your post. We will miss you but lets hope for a better next year. Yes the impression I got from most 'inside' AMA was they really expected to cancel. The Executive Counsel voted otherwise apparently due to some last-minute euphoria about things re-opening. What some of the SIGs were saying in the meeting was that polling of their members showed at or nearly 100% wished to cancel. Thats partly why some were so upset about certain ones that went around them to AMA. They don't believe those 'renegades" can pull together enough help to do it properly. AMA may still pull those plugs given the heat from yesterday.
We will have a Nats. I've made contact with most of the crew and so far I've learned of only one more who is planning to stay home. I so very much appreciate the couple who have just stepped up to help us. Yolanda has told me AMA will announce that they will waive late fees for at least a while longer so if you are on the fence but are willing to take a chance then get signed up.
There are many different ideas about the virus with little hope of making everyone look at it the same way. To me it's just science and medical data without any outside spin on it. I'll admit is scares the heck out of me. I have to live in the public each day and get uncomfortable being around my four grandkids at times who we try and protect. My daughters are tied in knots about how and when school will happen this year for them. I'm just asking everyone to give respect to others wishes on the issues. I have told the crew that the only major stipulation I will ask (that I know of yet) is that the Appearance judges should have gloves to handle all the airplanes. We know the virus can hang around on hard surfaces for up to 72 hours. We don't want anything passed from airplane to airplane to airplane to person.
Our meeting and processing will be a little out of the ordinary. We won't have the big screen or any of that. You will present yourself with your plane at the tent. You will be checked in at that point rather than by roll call during the meeting. The airplane will be weighed and put into the possession of the Appearance judges. I anticipate the meeting will be short and over a while before the judging is finished so you'll just hang out a bit. You will be handed your flight order and circle assignments as you enter to pick up your airplane. We will be starting with only two or three circles (TBD).
Dave
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As far as those Sigs who have members who are trying to usurp the authority of their Sig, they should be brought before a disciplinary committee and either expelled or suspended from their Sig. Members always agree before ever gaining membership to any Sig that they will abide by the bylaws. Members who run off Willy Nilly trying to subvert their duly elected officials decisions leads only to chaos and damage to the Sig. Just ask PAMPA, I think we all learned our lesson on that one and do our best to put it behind us.
Shame on AMA for exacerbating a bad situation by agreeing to let these people subvert their organization. It smacks of a money grab and in my humble opinion AMA would have been far better off appealing to their membership for a donation to help offset the loss of Nats events. I would have gladly donated, but right this second , I wouldn't give them a plug nickel.
Dave, in the unfortunate event you should ever be faced with a decision like that, I have every confidence you would do exactly as I would and bring these members before a disciplinary committee. PAMPA has decided to move forward with our event, so whether I agree or disagree, I will abide by our by-laws and support our executive councils decision.
Again, for all attending this year, have a safe trip and a good time.
Jim Smith
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Yolanda has told me AMA will announce that they will waive late fees for at least a while longer so if you are on the fence but are willing to take a chance then get signed up.
Do you know how much longer they will waive the late fees?
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Not sure Matt but don’t wait much longer. Yolanda said she will pull pre-entry data Monday or Tuesday to figure out the trophies $ AMA provides. We will still have to pay the lion’s share of that but it all helps. Also it greatly aids preparing and decisions I have to make.
Dave
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I’m still waiting on the possible work development. I asked and our rep isn’t sure about what is happening yet
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Dave T said:
I have told the crew that the only major stipulation I will ask (that I know of yet) is that the Appearance judges should have gloves to handle all the airplanes. We know the virus can hang around on hard surfaces for up to 72 hours. We don't want anything passed from airplane to airplane to airplane to person.
How do the gloves help? If an airplane has something on it and they touch it, then pick up the next plane it could be attached the the second plane also. Then the owner picks it up, and now the owner may have it on them. I don't see this as a viable solution.
I would suggest that they don't touch the planes in appearance judging. Problem is we have become accustomed to having them in nice rows of like points. This requires touching, thus possible transmission.
I will not apply disinfectant to my plane prior to touching g after appearance judging as it will likely affect the finish adversely. Hands yes, but plane, no. I am not a fraidey cat, but how to protect others?
So what is the right answer?
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New pair of gloves for each model?
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New gloves for each model is an option.
Hope they are easier to get there, as opposed to where I am.
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I can bring a box of 100 gloves, my wife gets them from hair supply stores. Should cover all the planes and then some.
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Mike please bring the gloves. I'd seen some boxes at the drug store the other day. I'll get some of those so we have enough. Thanks Paul for starting a conversation about it-it all helps and I sure like any input I can get. I asked myself the same question you did actually but thought we could use wipes to wipe the gloves in-between. Some at work are doing that periodically. But new gloves just solves it. Another possibility might be to judge differently. Flyer A gets checked in and the airplane weighed-he sets it on the scale. He then picks it up and moves so Flyer B can get to the check in table. Flyer A puts the plane on another table and stands by while the judges look the airplane over and give it a score. Then he is asked to carry it over to set it down-maybe in a marked row corresponding to the score it received. (actually at this point the judging is done. He COULD just simply be on his way with the airplane except for the show time-photo time that usually follows) . Flyer B and C move forward. In this way the pilot is the only one who ever touches the airplane. That to me begs another question: As it is currently done, is each airplane given a score as if it is the only one there at the time, or are they shuffled like musical chairs, best to worse and scoring rows/scores fall where they fall? If that's the approach my suggestion would run afoul of that.
Dave
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Mike please bring the gloves. I'd seen some boxes at the drug store the other day. I'll get some of those so we have enough. Thanks Paul for starting a conversation about it-it all helps and I sure like any input I can get. I asked myself the same question you did actually but thought we could use wipes to wipe the gloves in-between. Some at work are doing that periodically. But new gloves just solves it. Another possibility might be to judge differently. Flyer A gets checked in and the airplane weighed-he sets it on the scale. He then picks it up and moves so Flyer B can get to the check in table. Flyer A puts the plane on another table and stands by while the judges look the airplane over and give it a score. Then he is asked to carry it over to set it down-maybe in a marked row corresponding to the score it received. (actually at this point the judging is done. He COULD just simply be on his way with the airplane except for the show time-photo time that usually follows) . Flyer B and C move forward. In this way the pilot is the only one who ever touches the airplane. That to me begs another question: As it is currently done, is each airplane given a score as if it is the only one there at the time, or are they shuffled like musical chairs, best to worse and scoring rows/scores fall where they fall? If that's the approach my suggestion would run afoul of that.
Dave
Wow, just wow. I cant believe we are having this conversation. Do you really think you are going to catch a virus by picking up a plane, outside, in heat and sunlight? Changing gloves between handleing airplanes? You guys can not be serious!!!
I believe this is exactly the kind of thing Brett was worried about, and its making me strongly reconsider coming.
Derek
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My plane is only handled once when it is placed in the back row so odds of it getting coronavirus are remote.
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What about launching and retrieving? Will gloves be required? More than just the builder/pilot will handle the model during the competition.
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What about launching and retrieving? Will gloves be required? More than just the builder/pilot will handle the model during the competition.
I’m not asking anything from the contestants, just a few of the crew- for their safety and all the pilots- at least the ones who care about it.
Dave
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I’m not asking anything from the contestants, just a few of the crew- for their safety and all the pilots- at least the ones who care about it.
Dave
Got it.
Thanks.
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I believe this is exactly the kind of thing Brett was worried about,
It is. I have yet to see a hard list of these precautions "for safety", and a statement that we won't start making them up on the fly.
That's what I am really concerned with - everyone with the most conservative view of what constitutes "safety" will start adding stuff, on the fly, that result in what has resulted in many other cases I have been involved with - "safety screechers".
Without knowing one way or another whether Paul's concern is legitimate, or making any judgement of what people need to feel "safe" - if it is so dangerous that you can't pick up an airplane for 72 hours, then it's too dangerous to proceed.
What will happen, if we let it, is that throughout the weeks leading up to, and when we get there, is that people are going to start having "helpful suggestions" about what is required, and suggest them to Dave, the AMA staff, etc - even though they are not responsible in any way for epidemic protections - and then those will start being implemented, because if they aren't, the proposers will get more and more adamant about it, because they think that is what the need to "stay safe".
The result is a spiral of increasingly draconian "safety rules", because while Derek Barry might not care or want any protection, what he wants is irrelevant, it's to "protect everyone else", the implication of which is that Derek is a thoughtless person who doesn't care about other people, and must be made to comply. That's how we ended up with masks in supermarkets, that's how we ended up with universal quarantine of even those who are not sick, neither of which accomplishes anything aside from making people "feel safe".
Here is the reality - if you go all the way across country to Muncie, assume that *you will be exposed to COVID-19*, and there is some extremely small chance that you will have serious symptoms and a vanishingly small chance of dying of it. It's more likely than some other infectious diseases you had to expose yourself to before this year (polio, malaria, SARS, Hanta virus, Ebola, etc.).
If you cannot accept that risk, and expect that somehow things will be arranged for you to avoid exposure entirely, then that is probably not realistic.
Dave Trible is *not responsible for your safety*, the AMA is *not responsible for your safety*, other people are *not responsible for your safety*, you, the individual, are solely responsible for your own safety, don't count on other people, because neither they nor anyone else knows enough to ensure that. Don't go to the NATS expecting them to "keep you safe", they can't do that and it's not their job.
Brett
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Brett,
My only intent was to show the flaw in Dave's "appearance judges will wear gloves" decree.
If he is concerned about the judges getting it, he should be concerned about the fliers also.
Me, I am going. I talked to Yolanda and she said the only Impact to the fliers would be to have to go to the "white house" to register, and they would have hand sanitizer all over. No requirements on social distancing or masks.
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Brett,
My only intent was to show the flaw in Dave's "appearance judges will wear gloves" decree.
Mine was to show how that same reasoning, taken to the logical end, winds up. I wasn't criticizing at all. Also to point out that Dave and the organizers are not on the hook for your, my, or anyone else's "safety", at least as infectious diseases are concerned, any more than Gavin Newsom or Eric Holcomb.
We did and are doing launch and early orbit operations on a satellite. Launch was the week after the (unconstitutional) lockdown, which resulted in one decree after another, each person who considered themselves guardians of my safety came up with something more impacting and draconian than the last, with continuous nagging.
Two important differences were that this was an activity with real national security implications, AND, they were paying everyone their (as you have noted several times over the years) exorbitant salary. Not a completely trivial leisure activity where the participants are making extreme efforts to attend, for their own enjoyment.
Brett
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It is. I have yet to see a hard list of these precautions "for safety", and a statement that we won't start making them up on the fly.
That's what I am really concerned with - everyone with the most conservative view of what constitutes "safety" will start adding stuff, on the fly, that result in what has resulted in many other cases I have been involved with - "safety screechers".
Without knowing one way or another whether Paul's concern is legitimate, or making any judgement of what people need to feel "safe" - if it is so dangerous that you can't pick up an airplane for 72 hours, then it's too dangerous to proceed.
What will happen, if we let it, is that throughout the weeks leading up to, and when we get there, is that people are going to start having "helpful suggestions" about what is required, and suggest them to Dave, the AMA staff, etc - even though they are not responsible in any way for epidemic protections - and then those will start being implemented, because if they aren't, the proposers will get more and more adamant about it, because they think that is what the need to "stay safe".
The result is a spiral of increasingly draconian "safety rules", because while Derek Barry might not care or want any protection, what he wants is irrelevant, it's to "protect everyone else", the implication of which is that Derek is a thoughtless person who doesn't care about other people, and must be made to comply. That's how we ended up with masks in supermarkets, that's how we ended up with universal quarantine of even those who are not sick, neither of which accomplishes anything aside from making people "feel safe".
Here is the reality - if you go all the way across country to Muncie, assume that *you will be exposed to COVID-19*, and there is some extremely small chance that you will have serious symptoms and a vanishingly small chance of dying of it. It's more likely than some other infectious diseases you had to expose yourself to before this year (polio, malaria, SARS, Hanta virus, Ebola, etc.).
If you cannot accept that risk, and expect that somehow things will be arranged for you to avoid exposure entirely, then that is probably not realistic.
Dave Trible is *not responsible for your safety*, the AMA is *not responsible for your safety*, other people are *not responsible for your safety*, you, the individual, are solely responsible for your own safety, don't count on other people, because neither they nor anyone else knows enough to ensure that. Don't go to the NATS expecting them to "keep you safe", they can't do that and it's not their job.
Brett
I totally agree with Brett! 100%
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<snip I talked to Yolanda and she said the only Impact snip>
I like the way you capitalized Impact!
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I like the way you capitalized Impact!
😂😂😂
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Just registered! Looking forward to being there! #^
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Matt glad you are coming. Also I think we may be up to 10 judges again. Bad news are a couple who have sent messages today saying they now AREN’T coming due to the cavalier attitudes expressed herein.
Dave
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The result is a spiral of increasingly draconian "safety rules", because while Derek Barry might not care or want any protection, what he wants is irrelevant, it's to "protect everyone else", the implication of which is that Derek is a thoughtless person who doesn't care about other people, and must be made to comply.
Brett
Didn't take long, did it?
Derek
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Matt glad you are coming. Also I think we may be up to 10 judges again. Bad news are a couple who have sent messages today saying they now AREN’T coming due to the cavalier attitudes expressed herein.
Which cavalier attitudes might those be? It was my considered opinion that this contest should not be held at all, because you and no one else can guarantee safety, and there will be plenty of people who, rightly or wrongly, expect you and the AMA to do that for them.
All I wanted was a clear indication of what we were going to do, in order to make an informed decision on a moderately risky and extremely costly and difficult trip. I have no idea whether it will even be possible to do it in any case.
So, what exactly do you want me (and Derek and Crist and Matt and everyone else) to do now? Stay away so others can be pretend to be "safe"? Come anyway to fill out the card?
Brett
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Brett I really don't have the time or desire to argue with you or anyone else. I have and do consider you, Derek and most all of you my friends and don't wish to change that. Trying to put on a Nats in the middle of a pandemic hasn't been done before and scares the crap out of a lot of folks. We live in a society of people, not on an island so I try to consider all and error on the side of safety. Yes I tried to get the AMA EC to call this one off just for these reasons but they chose otherwise and so as not to damage our (PAMPA) position with AMA, I also didn't, as about half the other SIG's did pull us out. So now we have more than half our participants staying home really fearing or being told by doctors it is not safe to come and many of the rest who ARE coming more than a little nervous about it, including all those who are giving of themselves to run this thing so that you and others can enjoy your time. Many of those are not youngsters and to them this is dangerous. I'm doing my best to stay out of the way of the competitors and not ask a damn thing of them other than they try to respect others-the Golden Rule. All this hellabaloo over asking one or two JUDGES to put on gloves for about an hour to help calm a few nerves and just maybe prevent someone from getting sick. How is this worthy of your ire? Out on the field you are totally free to do as you wish and handle your airplanes and choose your helpers. I KNOW you will see at least a few wearing gloves and maybe even masks. We live in a time when we should just accept that. You can simply do as you wish but please allow others to so as well without the grief.
Dave
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Brett I really don't have the time or desire to argue with you or anyone else. I have and do consider you, Derek and most all of you my friends and don't wish to change that. Trying to put on a Nats in the middle of a pandemic hasn't been done before and scares the crap out of a lot of folks. We live in a society of people, not on an island so I try to consider all and error on the side of safety. Yes I tried to get the AMA EC to call this one off just for these reasons but they chose otherwise and so as not to damage our (PAMPA) position with AMA, I also didn't, as about half the other SIG's did pull us out. So now we have more than half our participants staying home really fearing or being told by doctors it is not safe to come and many of the rest who ARE coming more than a little nervous about it, including all those who are giving of themselves to run this thing so that you and others can enjoy your time. Many of those are not youngsters and to them this is dangerous. I'm doing my best to stay out of the way of the competitors and not ask a damn thing of them other than they try to respect others-the Golden Rule. All this hellabaloo over asking one or two JUDGES to put on gloves for about an hour to help calm a few nerves and just maybe prevent someone from getting sick. How is this worthy of your ire? Out on the field you are totally free to do as you wish and handle your airplanes and choose your helpers. I KNOW you will see at least a few wearing gloves and maybe even masks. We live in a time when we should just accept that. You can simply do as you wish but please allow others to so as well without the grief.
Dave
Dave,
I'm sure I speak for the others when I say that we consider you a friend too, and none of us want that to change either. We are also aware that you sorta got stuck running this thing. I know that you were certain that the AMA would cancel and you wouldn't have to deal with this mess, but that didn't happen, and now you are forced to the best you can with what you have. Please don't think that my frustration is directed specifically at you, you just happen to be the guy in charge right now. Its not a job that many want, and there usually is more complaining than praise involved. The best advice I can offer is to make educated decisions, make them public early, and stand by them, even when people like me (or Howard) complain.
It is very obvious that people have very strong opinions on the virus, some very concerned, and others (like myself) who are not concerned at all. Maybe its because literally nothing in my life has changed, other than not being able to dine in my favorite Mexican restaurant for a few weeks. (that was very depressing) My job never shut down, and I spend my days in other peoples homes, usually 5-6 a day. So far, I have been asked by one person to wear a mask, (which I was happy to do) because her husband had some medical issues and was on oxygen. I live in a very big Medical district, and many of my customers are either in the medical field, or have an immediate family member who is. To say my chances of exposure are high, would be an understatement, however, life has gone on as normal, and nobody that I know has been adversely affected by the virus. Some had cold like symptoms and others were asymptomatic. I know it is very serious for people in their um... advanced years, and that much of our community would fall into that category. If you would like the appearance judges to change gloves 50 times in the matter of an hour, so be it. I just don't think it will make a difference. That is my opinion.
Derek
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Well the old DOC won't be at another NATS. Sure miss it. I still think people are making a mountain out of an ant hill. If people are sick or suspect of the virus stay home. I won't be there but the idea of the judges not touching the planes is an idea. Let the contestant move the plane around for the judges like the scale modelers do. If the hand sanitizers are available, use them if you are afraid of getting something. I do hope all you folks will have a good time and not get sick from a virus. In my opinion there is more of a chance of heat exhaustion after being in lock down for so long. I blame the politicians and so called medical experts for my condition right now. When temps get to 90+F degrees I have to slow down even more now. All I know about my self is I sweat a lot and when I don't sweat I need help. Again for all those that attend the NATS remember to have fun and enjoy the time together. H^^
Also remember to travel safely going and coming. I await the reports. D>K
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How is this worthy of your ire? Out on the field you are totally free to do as you wish and handle your airplanes and choose your helpers. I KNOW you will see at least a few wearing gloves and maybe even masks. We live in a time when we should just accept that. You can simply do as you wish but please allow others to so as well without the grief.
Dave, I am not mad, but I do think it is perfectly reasonable to ask for some idea ahead of time what will be expected.
I am not taking safety lightly, and I don't take responsibility for other people deciding not to come because they have somehow gotten the idea I (and maybe Derek and Paul) don't have a "proper" attitude about it. Most of those people are probably *not* being asked to drive solo 2400 miles across the country during an epidemic, with unknown conditions along the way.
We didn't invent the Wuhan Flu, that (and the reaction to it) is the problem, not Derek and Brett.
I assure you I am not "cavalier" about the risks, but there are a lot of different potential risks involved. This illustrates perfectly one of the risks I was talking about, basically getting tagged and called out - in public - for other people having a different opinion about what constitutes "safety".
I was asking what the conditions/rules are going to be, so everyone knows going in, and it doesn't turn into a nasty confrontation at the contest that spirals out of control with people finger-pointing and screaming "6 feet!!" at each other. Because I have spent the last 4 months in enclosed spaces with lots of people doing with exactly that.
And in any case, no one can possibly be responsible for someone else's health, not you, not me, not the AMA, not Fauci, not someone wearing a SCAPE suit. Nor will I take responsibility for other people's decisions about it, far from it, I encourage everyone to recognize that there are very real risks involved with cross-country travel now, and to decide for themselves whether those risks are worth it to them.
I know from watching it year after year after year, that the organizers and you specifically are in a no-win situation - do nothing, and some people will find it too dangerous, do too much and no one will find it an enjoyable experience. It's usually that way to some extent, but it's much worse this time.
Thats why proceeding is, in my opinion, a mistake, precisely because half the people involved will wind up mad at the other half. Here we are a month out, it's already happening.
It's a bad situation all around. If I go to a model airplane contest to see my friends across the country, and they are afraid (legitimately or not) to shake hands, then, that's not the NATs.
Brett
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I will shake your hand Brett!
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We can all shake hands and pass the sanitizer! BTW Brett, you going to judge Classic? I’m sure Bob would like the help.
Dave
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I will be attempting to fly the Beginner Stunt pattern at the Nats but I couldn't find the flight time limit for the Beginner Pattern (hand signal to start engine to end of flight) in the AMA rule book. Last year, in a local contest, I flew (that's being way too generous) Beginners and went over the time limit, which I think was set at 6 minutes versus the 8 minutes for the full pattern events. I'm guessing the time limit is set by the CD or the person running the Beginner Stunt event.
Did I just miss finding the time limit in the rule book? If there isn't a shorter time limit in the AMA rule book, what will the time limit be at the Nats? Would like to know so I can determine how much fuel to put in the tank.
Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO
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Joe Ed I hope someone answers the question since I don’t know. I’m told we now have 28 Open entries. I may need to increase my order for “I made the cut” tee shirts.
Davej
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I will shake your hand Brett!
How many layers of gloves for that? Of course, I was toxic to be around long before March...
Brett
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I will be attempting to fly the Beginner Stunt pattern at the Nats but I couldn't find the flight time limit for the Beginner Pattern (hand signal to start engine to end of flight) in the AMA rule book. Last year, in a local contest, I flew (that's being way too generous) Beginners and went over the time limit, which I think was set at 6 minutes versus the 8 minutes for the full pattern events. I'm guessing the time limit is set by the CD or the person running the Beginner Stunt event.
Did I just miss finding the time limit in the rule book? If there isn't a shorter time limit in the AMA rule book, what will the time limit be at the Nats? Would like to know so I can determine how much fuel to put in the tank.
Unless there is some special rule, it's 8 minutes, but it would be greatly appreciated by all concerned if you didn't use any more than necessary.
Brett
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It's good to see so many protesting on here. As we have learned from our infallible media, a protest is one place you can't catch the virus. Dave, I'm with you on the "Do to Others." I'll be sure to bring my competition pro mask and keep it handy just in case. Now I just need to find my way to Muncie. It is in Texas, right?
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I will shake your hand Brett!
Me too!
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Yes David, in Texas just south of Atlanta.
Here’s what I have
Open ....28 but three will not be there so 25
Advanced.....19
Junior.... 3
Senior....0
Dave
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Yes David, in Texas just south of Atlanta.
Here’s what I have
Open ....28 but three will not be there so 25
Advanced.....19
Junior.... 3
Senior....0
Dave
I best bring my B game this year. I don’t want to accidentally win Advanced with the lower turnout and have fly open next year LL~
Matt
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It's good to see so many protesting on here. As we have learned from our infallible media, a protest is one place you can't catch the virus. Dave, I'm with you on the "Do to Others." I'll be sure to bring my competition pro mask and keep it handy just in case. Now I just need to find my way to Muncie. It is in Texas, right?
Get on I-80, drive 2000 miles, turn right. I know every pothole by now.
Brett
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Yes David, in Texas just south of Atlanta.
Here’s what I have
Open ....28 but three will not be there so 25
Advanced.....19
Junior.... 3
Senior....0
Dave
Ben should be registered as a Senior.
James
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James you might call them tomorrow . He shows in Advanced but nothing in Senior.
Dave
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James you might call them tomorrow . He shows in Advanced but nothing in Senior.
Dave
Will do.
James
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I will be attempting to fly the Beginner Stunt pattern at the Nats but I couldn't find the flight time limit for the Beginner Pattern (hand signal to start engine to end of flight) in the AMA rule book. Last year, in a local contest, I flew (that's being way too generous) Beginners and went over the time limit, which I think was set at 6 minutes versus the 8 minutes for the full pattern events. I'm guessing the time limit is set by the CD or the person running the Beginner Stunt event.
Did I just miss finding the time limit in the rule book? If there isn't a shorter time limit in the AMA rule book, what will the time limit be at the Nats? Would like to know so I can determine how much fuel to put in the tank.
Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO
Joe,
The 6 minute limit was something that Allen Brickhaus did to keep things moving along. His thoughts were that since the Beginner pattern takes about 4 minutes to fly, that 6 minutes would give the pilot about 2 minutes of cushion similar to what is available in the full pattern. I believe Brett is correct that the rule book only mentions an 8 minute time limit so I suppose it could be discussed with the event director.
For what it is worth, I think 6 minutes is plenty of time for a Beginner and would target this as a maximum time. The event director may honor the 8 minute limit which you will still comply with.
Good luck and have fun.
John
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Regarding the Beginner Stunt Event at this year's NATS.
Please refer to the EVENTS section.
The Beginner Stunt Event is posted there with the rules and additional information.
Hope to see you there!
"Tight Lines!" H^^
Wes
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I will be attempting to fly the Beginner Stunt pattern at the Nats but I couldn't find the flight time limit for the Beginner Pattern (hand signal to start engine to end of flight) in the AMA rule book. Last year, in a local contest, I flew (that's being way too generous) Beginners and went over the time limit, which I think was set at 6 minutes versus the 8 minutes for the full pattern events. I'm guessing the time limit is set by the CD or the person running the Beginner Stunt event.
Did I just miss finding the time limit in the rule book? If there isn't a shorter time limit in the AMA rule book, what will the time limit be at the Nats? Would like to know so I can determine how much fuel to put in the tank.
Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO
Here ya go. https://stunthanger.com/smf/event's/nats-beginner-stunt-2020/
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Here ya go. https://stunthanger.com/smf/event's/nats-beginner-stunt-2020/
So, 6 minutes - which is still PLENTY of time.
Brett
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I will be attempting to fly the Beginner Stunt pattern at the Nats but I couldn't find the flight time limit for the Beginner Pattern (hand signal to start engine to end of flight) in the AMA rule book. Last year, in a local contest, I flew (that's being way too generous) Beginners and went over the time limit, which I think was set at 6 minutes versus the 8 minutes for the full pattern events. I'm guessing the time limit is set by the CD or the person running the Beginner Stunt event.
Did I just miss finding the time limit in the rule book? If there isn't a shorter time limit in the AMA rule book, what will the time limit be at the Nats? Would like to know so I can determine how much fuel to put in the tank.
Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO
You can get it down to under 6 minutes Joe. You just need to practice, and with each flight be very specific about how much fuel you put in the tank, take off RPM, and what the air temperature is. Experiment and BE SURE! DON"T GUESS! Pick the plane that you know the best. Make each test/practice flight like it is a competition flight and record your run times and lap times . Do this EVERY FLIGHT! You are trying to achieve consistency. Work on your starting routine to make sure you are started and in the air in about 1 minute or less. Try not to take too many laps between the maneuvers, keep it at the two that are required inn the rule book. If you are doing all of the maneuvers now, all you need to do is just tie it all together for a complete flight and that is what you should focus on in practice. We'll get together at Buder and I'll coach you. YOU CAN DO IT!!!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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If memory serves Samuel was completing the Beginner Pattern right around 2 minutes 40 seconds. There isn't much to it.
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Thanks to everyone.
Joe Ed
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Angstrom is still flying Beginner and we can do all the stunts, with two laps in between and time to spare, in 2 minutes 30 seconds.
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From my email this morning Mr. Fitzgerald is asking if anyone can pick him up at the airport in Indy and bring him to Muncie. Normally no challenge but he lands during the pilots meeting. Perhaps a spouse or family member of someone? He said he would hang out at the airport until after the meeting if need be. He is judging this year so I doubt there is an airplane to transport. Please let me know. (Or Dave if you have his contact info).
Thanks!
Dave
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No airplane but perhaps a big trophy?
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Yeah I forgot about that......
Dave
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Hi Dave,
P.M. sent concerning Dave Fitzgerald transportation to Muncie.
Blessings;
Larry
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FYI we have a plan A and plan B about getting David picked up.
Dave
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FYI we have a plan A and plan B about getting David picked up.
Dave
Part of the opening ceremonies should be David parachuting in from a passing C-17
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Why didn’t I think of that? Might scratch that dang cup though.
Dave
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That sounds like what is done at most local contests. The judges score appearance when plane is put on the circle. No separate appearance judge. S?P
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Seems obvious to me but handling the planes while appearance judging seems easy enough. Judges put on a pair of gloves while handling the planes. Once done they toss the gloves. Tell all pilots that there is a possibility of viral transfer. If they are concerned about it, they put on a pair of gloves and carry their plane to a socially distant spot and disinfect it as they see fit. Those of us that aren’t concerned just pick up our planes and go get in more practice!
Matt
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Here's a suggestion for the appearance point judging issue: How about just having the pilots place their models in the appearance point area, and then have the judges just look at the tops of the models. That way they never have to pick up the models at all. They can simply record the numbers on a sheet and then transfer them to a master board that everyone can look at after the judging. I know this has never been done before, but then we've not had anywhere near the extraordinary circumstances that we have this year.
Hey, don't shoot the messenger...
Bob Hunt
Hello Bob. Well that’s something close to what I mentioned earlier. I haven’t read the judges guide to see if it says anything about the bottom of the plane. I could get a scrap of carpet to put on the table and the judges might ask the contestants to turn the crate over. Just bought 150 pair of nitrile gloves so either way. I’ll look at the guide and be talking to our judges, Mike Londke and Mike Eber. Thanks Bob!
Dave
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Here's a suggestion for the appearance point judging issue: How about just having the pilots place their models in the appearance point area, and then have the judges just look at the tops of the models.
(Clip)
I know this has never been done before, but then we've not had anywhere near the extraordinary circumstances that we have this year.
Hey, don't shoot the messenger...
Bob Hunt
Hi Bob,
Brings back memories from "several" years ago. Two people (who you know) were doing the appearance judging. When they came up to one model, it had a striking, attractive and well executed and buffed out color scheme. This was the impression until the model was turned over. The bottom had not been polished and color lines needed to be cleaned up to name a few of the problems. The model was placed among the "average, so-so" models. The pilot had received the Concours award the year before. He got a bit upset and submitted a protest. The judges showed the Event Director the problems with the inconsistent finish and the ED upheld the judges' score. The pilot took his model and went home. Evidently, he was used to models at local contests only being judged without the bottoms being looked at.
Yes, times are different with the Nats this year. I would suggest that the appearance judges this year not handle the airplanes at all.
Note to Dave Trible: There is nothing in the Judges' Guide about appearance judging. You have a good idea to have the pilot turn the plane over on a carpet or blanket for the judgess to look, without the need to touch it.
Keith
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like Scale, put it on a table with a blanket on it to bring it more up to eye level and let the contestant move it around
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Thanks Keith, saved me looking for something that isn't there-maybe it should be?.......I'm leaning heavily towards you and Bob's suggestion of the pilots doing all the handling. I'll get some soft carpet and have them turn the planes over. We may have a helper who actually is handed the score and leads the pilot to the proper row. It would be better if the pilots NOT start any discussions over the score with the judges, at least during this judging. This could actually take even less time if the judges don't handle the planes and have to walk them around. I've talked with one of the Mikes and he is fine with it.
.
Dave
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Thanks Keith, saved me looking for something that isn't there-maybe it should be?
(Clip)
Dave
Dave,
I know this is not pertinent to the current discussion, but I think your comment above has to do with putting some sort of guide in the judges' guide for appearance judging. If you want to stir up a hornet's nest, that is a good way to start.
Keith
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Oh I dare not! Please excuse the suggestion...... <=
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We’re the Jive Combat Team.
We know what is cookin’.
Our stunt is superb
And our bottoms good lookin’.
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Howard is in good form.
Dave
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I'm going to play Brett Buck's advocate here (isn't there some sort of saying about playing someone's advocate..;) )because I completely agree with the spirit of his comments. Make the appearance decision soon, publish it, stick with it so there are no surprises.
Respectfully,
David
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My plan is this fir the next 3 weeks.
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‘At a boy Tom! That’s the road to success in this game.
David today I bought a small carpet to lay on a table. We are going to do just what we were talking about above. The judges won’t actually handle the airplanes. The pilot will stay with his airplane and lay it on the table. When asked he will turn it over. The judges will pass their score to their helper who will record the score on a master score sheet and escort the pilot to the proper place to put the airplane down. This should move a little more quickly than the check in, signing of the AMA safety declaration sheet and weighing of the airplane which will be done as the flyers first arrive at the tent.
Dave
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Very nice to see that Brett B has entered!
29 Open entries now. Glad to see that.
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#^ #^ #^ :)!Joyce emailed me that the repairs on the L pad started today, should take about 4 day’s.I’ll be going out there tomorrow Friday to check it out, I’ll report tomorrow evening.
Blessings
Allen
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#^ #^ #^ :)!Joyce emailed me that the repairs on the L pad started today, should take about 4 day’s.I’ll be going out there tomorrow Friday to check it out, I’ll report tomorrow evening.
Blessings
Allen
Gee Allen I just spent $100 on 4" wide duct tape...............
Dave
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Dave, sorry but the cracks are bigger this year, $100 would not have covered it. LOL.
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What happened to the repaving that was supposed to have been done a year or so ago?
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Paul, I have been working with Joyce on the paving problem for three years now and the problem was no paving company in Indiana had room to fit into there years.all were under contract to state roadwork. Believe me we are lucky to get it now. This is considered a “5 year fix”. My son in law is a engineer for one of the largest paving companies in the Midwest and they are so consumed with interstate contracts that small jobs are not even considered.
Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.
Blessings
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Very nice to see that Brett B has entered!
That jackass? Worthless.
It remains to be seen how well travelling will work out by two weeks from now. I might get quarantined in motel in Wyoming for two weeks.
Brett
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I am needing to find a replacement for a Pit Boss. Anyone going who would like to help please let me know ASAP.
Thanks
Dave
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Repairs at AMA ongoing
Blessings