Author Topic: 1/2A fierce Arrow (Read 81989 times)

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #500 on:** March 27, 2007, 05:24:24 PM »

HEY-HEY-HEY

Now Mr. Little we have Hi-Jacked this thread long enough. You go away and leave these nice gentlemen to there work. They are trying to complete a very prestigeous project. Sorry guys we got a little(no pun intended) carried away here. NAW I can't even keep a straight face written this stuff. Hope we took the edge off for a few minutes anyway. And Bill your numbers are off, there were three girls my twin sister was better lookin too.See Ya.

THE "G-MAN"

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #501 on:** March 27, 2007, 08:57:00 PM »

Hey G Man.
Saw the picture, started shaking so hard I'll delay forming the nose assy 'til tomorrow Note:

I extended the carry thru slot in the sides so the LE will fit into Rib #1 and the slot to get a stronger joint.
Wow! hangar rash! pics show more than they should!

R....

frank carlisle · « **Reply #502 on:** March 28, 2007, 01:13:35 PM »

Guys--------I am not going to say anything about BG's picture. Although I do wonder where his granddaughter got the good looks from.

Here is my excuse for not working on the Arrow. Tell me if you think it's a good one.....................................

I run a Handy Man Service and this is a very busy season. So I'm visiting as many as 3 houses a day. Fixing plumbing, caulking windows, setting up airconditioners, mending the plaster from where Uncle Ed busted his head through the wall at the Christmas Party, etc. etc. The money is very good.
Also--Jan and I are running in engines in the evenings and getting our field boxes set up for the upcoming season.
Furthermore--This LA Heat just has to be ready to fly in April and there is still a load of work to do on it.
Most importantly--I must log some couch time every day.

HOW'S THAT?

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #503 on:** March 28, 2007, 02:22:52 PM »

NOPE

"THE G-MAN"

frank carlisle · « **Reply #504 on:** March 28, 2007, 03:03:11 PM »

Quote from: Bill Gruby on March 28, 2007, 02:22:52 PM

NOPE

"THE G-MAN"

I THINK I'LL WAIT FOR ALL THE VOTES TO BE IN...........

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #505 on:** March 28, 2007, 03:40:24 PM »

Hey Frank, we're not your mother, you don't have to excuse yourself to us...feeling a little guilty are we? Post some old pictures, we won't know the difference anyway.

Seriously, by all means finish your LA Heat, it's too close to postpone now! And I suppose if you must earn a living...you shoulda married a rich woman.

--Ray

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #506 on:** March 28, 2007, 06:39:10 PM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on March 28, 2007, 03:03:11 PM

I THINK I'LL WAIT FOR ALL THE VOTES TO BE IN...........

"Couch Time?"
I have decided to call it "Power Nap". Sorta infers an active person will be the result and I dont get bothered (as much!)!

R....

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #507 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:46:14 PM »

I saw a Dagwood comic strip one time, he flips a coin and says "Heads I mow the grass, tails I clean out the garage." Next frame: "Rats! it rolled under the couch...which can mean only one thing," and he flops down on the couch for a nap. I can identify.

Frank, I hope you didn't take me seriously in the earlier post, I was just kidding with you. I wish I'D married a rich woman!

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #508 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:56:32 PM »

Quote from: minnesotamodeler on March 28, 2007, 03:40:24 PM

Post some old pictures, we won't know the difference anyway.

--Ray

Old pictures......these two are from the 1986 NATS.......that was my coolest plane ever...STUNT-FU

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #509 on:** March 30, 2007, 06:23:24 AM »

Started shaping nose assy., thought of G-Man's picture

and had to stop (was shaking too much)

.
Will resume after KOI.
Roger
ps That's not Jan's spinner, I would not dare to scratch it. It's an old, beat up Veco.

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #510 on:** March 30, 2007, 08:28:11 AM »

Roger;

You missed the good side----------When you started shaking you became a VIBRATING SANDER it would have made the job easier.

It's too early for this I'm goin back to bed, not cause I want to , cause I CAN.

"Billy G"

Bill Smith · « **Reply #511 on:** March 30, 2007, 09:08:09 PM »

the Arrows here fly on 50 ft lines use norvel .049s. the white and red one is a 20% enlargement from the plans, 13.5 ounces and flies well but needs close spacing of your lines at the handle (it turns tight). I built it this size so that if I ever wanted to I could put one of my .09 cox medallion engines in it.
Gerry took an original set of plans for the full size Arrow and shrunk them then made the necessary changes for strength and weight for the 1/2A.
the trick is that we built them on rods. you build the wing first and then make a fuselage around it.
don't know how I missed this thread. I love Arrows

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #512 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:01:51 AM »

Hey Bill,

Don't know how you've missed this thread, either! Very nice pics, thanks for posting them...we're building from the 1/2A plans by Gerry Ruschke, I don't know how that compares with your models: Is the 20% enlargement from these plans? And, I guess, is he the "Gerry" you mention? Your model spans 36"?

Frank is first building one stock by Gerry's plans for an .049, but for our "Frankenstone Arrow" version we increased the wingspan from 30" to 34", rudder height by 1/4", length by 1/2", for the Norvel .061. Also took the liberty of changing the rib spacing (orig. 1 3/4") to 3" with 1/2 ribs between, and lightening the rear fuselage construction. I'm hoping, and it looks like it'll make it, for 10.5 to 11 oz. RTF. I have in mind more changes if I build another, mainly in the wing construction.

I'm just about ready to cover mine, looking forward to seeing how it flies. I love the look, hope the performance equals it!

Welcome, better late than never, Bill; you only have 11 pages of thread to catch up on!

--Ray

Bill Smith · « **Reply #513 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:23:23 AM »

Yes he is the Gerry of the plans you have. He used to have the best CL hobby shop in Illinois. My planes are (except for the size) built to the plans and fly great, my only problem was making sure there was adequate cooling. the engine would run inconsistently if it got too hot. The best Idea you have had is the aluminum gear the wire gear does bounce a bit, smooth landings are a little work. I had to use soft foam tires to tame them.
the small one used a balloon tank, the large one is on a uniflow.
they balanced out perfect from the plans so lightening up the rear if your doping may mean adding some weight in the tail, mine are in monokote and paint and are a little heavy.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #514 on:** March 31, 2007, 09:39:12 AM »

Yup, the balance is an unresolved issue so far, seems like it might be a little noseheavy, but I'll have to wait until the finish is on to know for sure. On the other hand, if it's as touchy as you indicate, a little forward CG may not be a bad thing.

My finish too will be Monokote (well, plastic film anyhow) and paint (Rustoleum). Tank is a homemade plastic clunk, uniflow venting. the Aluminum gear was all Frank--his suggestion, his design/dimensions, etc. I really like how it came out.

Where did you get your spinners? What size are they?

--Ray

Bill Smith · « **Reply #515 on:** March 31, 2007, 10:39:10 AM »

the spinner is Zingler (the Prop people Jo Z products Inc. old phone 213 539-2313) and they don't make them any more. I found out that they still had some and bought a few. Gerry liked them and bought all the rest. there ain't no more. they used to make them from 1.00 to 2.50 inches. good stuff.
You know with the popularity of smaller planes (RC) they might be talked into making them again. E-mail them guys.

When Comcast gets off theyre butt and gets Gerry hooked up. He will love this sight.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #516 on:** March 31, 2007, 02:42:13 PM »

We'd love to hear from him. Hope it's soon.

Bill Smith · « **Reply #517 on:** March 31, 2007, 05:06:10 PM »

finally finished reading. so how many of you are building Arrows? You know I forgot how much went into building one of these and after reading all of your play by plays I hope the nightmares don't return.
They are pretty though aren't they.
If I ever do another one I think I will just cut foam.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #518 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:04:34 PM »

The construction is a little involved, all right...that's one thing I'll change if I build another. We simplified the fuselage this time around, left out 2 formers and 4 stringers, still plenty stiff, doesn't carry anything anyway. Next time around will be the wing, I'll leave out those 2 (total

stringers under the LE sheeting, and stay with the 3" rib spacing and half ribs. That'll eliminate cutting 80(!) (count'em--7 ribs and 3 half ribs each wing, that's 20 total, 4 notches each...) notches! That in itself should cut fab time in about half!!!! Already changed the TE to a more conventional method, eliminated all notches there.

There's 3 of us currently working on FAs of one stripe or another. Frank's building stock off Gerry's plans; Roger and I have gone directly to the Frankenstone version, which Frank says he will build next. Although we lost Frank for the time being, I think he's up to his elbows in LA Heat paint...Also got a few lurkers, I think, following this thread. Has been and continues to be a very interesting and stimulating experience.

Feel free to chime in any time with your own observations, suggestions, criticisms, whatever...we're tough, we can take it.

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #519 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:08:07 PM »

Hi Bill-welcome to the thread. I was wondering where other guys were that had built this little model. Yours are very pretty. There are 3 of us building the 1/2A Arrow on this thread. We all seem to be going in spurts with the project. Ray is in the lead with Roger and me following behind.

I'm amazed that you actually sat through an entire reading of this thread, man it's a long one.

This is the third model Ray and I have built on line since last fall. We did a 1/2A Snapper and an .020 powered Queen Bee bi-plane. Ray is single handedly creating a resurgance in 1/2A proliferation. He produced kits of the Snapper and Queen Bee.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #520 on:** April 01, 2007, 06:23:39 AM »

Hey Frank, you forgot the Autogyro, that's 4. Kit from Black Hawk Models. How's the Heat coming?

--Ray

P.S. By the way, you know I don't use smileys, or emoticons, or whatever--but twice now, i've tried to say "eight)" and got instead a goofy smiley-face! So any time you see in my msgs a

just know I'm trying to say "eight" in a parenthisis. Kind of unnerving to see that thing appear when I wasn't trying to.

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #521 on:** April 01, 2007, 06:55:23 AM »

Oh yeah------how could I forget the auto-gyro.

The Heat looks the same as the last pictures I posted, I've been doing touch ups. Big Art has the engines ready I'll be picking them up next week.
I'm thinking maybe 3 more weeks or so before it's finished.

Jan and I spent a couple evenings last week putting 1/2A engines together. Remember that scene in "the Good,the Bad and the Ugly"? Eli Wallich staggers into town after being left stranded in the desert by Clint Eastwood. He goes into the gun shop and pieces together a pistol with parts from a variety of guns. A cylinder from one. A barrel from another. Well that's what it looked like at my work bench. We picked dual port cylinder/pistons-cases with tight cranks, the brightest glow heads and stunt tanks (all Cox parts btw) and we got 5 engines together. Then we took them out and ran them in. Some were getting better RPM than others but after a few runs on each we got steady runs from all. Now I have 4 new 1/2A models all set up with engines I know will run.

My work bench is cleared off today and the Heat is back for more work.

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #522 on:** April 01, 2007, 07:04:44 AM »

Bill Smith,
As Ray said, please do not hesitate to comment if you see us heading in an "Ah S***!" direction. We are "sorta old", tough and can take it!
Also, after flying yours, any ideas on what you might have done differently in the construction? We gather all ideas, to use now or on another/the next(?) one.
thanks,
Roger

Bill Smith · « **Reply #523 on:** April 01, 2007, 07:58:58 AM »

As I have said mine was built to the original plans that are basically scaled down straight from the full size arrow. the gear you have done and that would have been the big change for me. there is alot of wing there so weight is not a problem as far as the maneuvers and a norvel running good can pull 16 ounces through a pattern (I've seen it done). And if you have an accident (not that any of you will) you will be surprised at how strong it is. I cartwheeled mine bad (Flying in a Strong wind, dumb move) and the worst damage one rib and the stringers on the outside wing. It took me two hours to fix, and that was monokote time.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #524 on:** April 01, 2007, 12:26:20 PM »

That's kinda typical of deltas, or severely swept wings...they sort of naturally do a "tuck and roll" when they hit, nothing hits square or solid. One of the attractive things about the design type.

One of my earlier LittleAxes weighed between 15-16 ozs., the .061 pulled it fine but at 200 sq. in. it didn't have the wing to carry it very far through maneuvers. My latest, at 10 oz., flies so much better! So the FA with 300 or so squares certainly should carry a little more weight, and I know the engine will pull it. Still, I'm shooting for no more than 11 oz. with mine, think I'll make it OK.

--Ray

Bill Smith · « **Reply #525 on:** April 01, 2007, 01:50:27 PM »

the larger of mine is 35.25 wingspan, 13.5 ounces, roughly 350 sq, and is pulled by an .049. if you get around 11 ounces that would be great. I was not as carefull as I should have been selecting wood when I built mine.

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #526 on:** April 03, 2007, 10:46:51 AM »

Where did everybody go?
I "split" the nose assembly, opened the separation cuts to allow inlaying 1/64" ply around the edges. I am now gluing in the 1/64" ply "U" shapes to harden the interface.
Much more sanding/filling/lightening required.
Roger

frank carlisle · « **Reply #527 on:** April 03, 2007, 02:38:26 PM »

Looking good Roger........As to where every one went.....well.....after 11 pages......I'm still here and plan on blazing into my Arrow soon.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #528 on:** April 04, 2007, 08:23:43 PM »

Hi Guys, I been working on whipping some engines into shape. I set up on a test board a Peewee .020, TeeDee .020, new VA, that new Brodak Mk 1 I got from you, Frank, and one Cox production. Finally got them all running pretty well. The .020s are ready to go back on the planes, but I need to get a few more tanks through the VA and Brodak; and the Cox production engine had a pretty serious vibration, I need to try it again with a different prop. Now it's too cold. (sigh).

I'm thinking of covering my FA in white, which I'll have to order, so that's postponed for a little while. Keep after it fellas!

--Ray

P.S. Roger, that cowling is looking good. I think Frank also lined the mating surfaces with 1/64" ply; I took the lazy man's way and hardened my edges with a layer of glue. Back side, against the former, is plywood though. I think you guys's(?) way is better.

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #529 on:** April 04, 2007, 08:40:11 PM »

HEY-HEY-HEY Roger Ray and Frank OOOPS Now Bill S Too (Sorry)

I didn't go anywhere I am always here LOL

"Billy G"

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #530 on:** April 05, 2007, 06:30:46 AM »

I'm spending to much time "fiddling" w/ the nose assy. But, it is fun!

Have family (aka "snowbirds") in for a week so I'll slow way down on FA until they leave. Have to start

and think of wing assy.
Roger

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #531 on:** April 05, 2007, 02:04:25 PM »

Roger, the nose assembly just takes a lot of fiddling...but once you've got it done, you're, like, halfway through building! Because it's the motor mount, and the landing gear mount, and the tank mount, and the nose cowling, and the root for the wing construction. Only way it could be more complete is if the bellcrank mounted on it too!

--Ray

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #532 on:** April 06, 2007, 06:08:41 AM »

Hmm, bellcrank mount.
I'll think

about that!

Roger

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #533 on:** April 06, 2007, 04:20:52 PM »

Yeah, even as I wrote that I got a mental image of including a BC mount on that pod. Easy to do; one way would be to extend the MM beams, suitably thinned down, through F1 and back a couple of inches; span them with some 1/16" ply and there you are. About the right height too. Next time!

--Ray

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #534 on:** April 07, 2007, 07:51:56 AM »

Ray,
I might have missed it, but as I

, think about wing construction,

, measure,

, measure

-
there is some asymmetry in the wing span, ie about 3/16" longer inboard if we scale it up to the new span.
Did you build in any asymmetry on the wing, "flapevators" and fixed flapevator and trim tab(outboard)?
I can, at this stage, and probably will.
Roger

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #535 on:** April 07, 2007, 11:10:14 AM »

Roger, the short answer is "no", there is no asymmetry built into the drawings I did, nor IMO is there in the original. If there was intended to be, I'm certain it would be more than 3/16".

In your measuring, you might check the wingspan on the original plans--on my set it measures 30 1/8" or slightly over; supposed to be 30" even. This is typical of blueprint-type plans, they tend to stretch/shrink just a little in the printing, and not evenly either. That's why you often saw a "ruler" included on hand-drawn plans--so you could check for just that problem. Also hand-drawn plans don't--can't--have the precision pinpoint accuracy we're used to from CAD drawings.

So in our case, we have a 2" bellcrank called out, but the drawing scales 1 7/8" edge to edge. Most (but not all) of the called-out 3/16" capstrips actually measure slightly under that. 1 1/2" wheel measures 1 7/16"; but the 1 1/8" spinner is right on mark. And so on.

This is exactly why I prefer to work from called-out dimensions whenever possible, or CAD-generated patterns.

I don't care for offset wings anyhow; but if the original calls for it I will do it (re: Snapper). Lots of other guys with lots of experience and knowledge do use them, however probably just as many similarly-qualified guys don't. Your call.

If you want to stretch the inboard wing, or trim the ouboard, 3/16"--even 1/2"--it's easy to do at the "uncovered" stage, but I doubt it will make a noticeable difference in the way it flies one way or the other.

As Jimmy Dean used to say, "Whatever melts your butter."

--Ray

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #536 on:** April 07, 2007, 11:47:23 AM »

Quote from: minnesotamodeler on April 07, 2007, 11:10:14 AM

Roger, the short answer is "no", there is no asymmetry built into the drawings I did, nor IMO is there in the original. If there was intended to be, I'm certain it would be more than 3/16".

In your measuring, you might check the wingspan on the original plans--on my set it measures 30 1/8" or slightly over; supposed to be 30" even. I'm closer to 30 1/4" .This is typical of blueprint-type plans, they tend to stretch/shrink just a little in the printing, and not evenly either. That's why you often saw a "ruler" included on hand-drawn plans--so you could check for just that problem. Understand, we used "trammel points on lofting drawings, way back when I started to earn a living!first Also hand-drawn plans don't--can't--have the precision pinpoint accuracy we're used to from CAD drawings. Understand.
So in our case, we have a 2" bellcrank called out, but the drawing scales 1 7/8" edge to edge. Most (but not all) of the called-out 3/16" capstrips actually measure slightly under that. 1 1/2" wheel measures 1 7/16"; but the 1 1/8" spinner is right on mark. And so on.

This is exactly why I prefer to work from called-out dimensions whenever possible, or CAD-generated patterns.

I don't care for offset wings anyhow; but if the original calls for it I will do it (re: Snapper). Lots of other guys with lots of experience and knowledge do use them, however probably just as many similarly-qualified guys don't. Your call.

If you want to stretch the inboard wing, or trim the ouboard, 3/16"--even 1/2"--it's easy to do at the "uncovered" stage, but I doubt it will make a noticeable difference in the way it flies one way or the other.
Will and reconsider.
As Jimmy Dean used to say, "Whatever melts your butter."
Roger

--Ray

Bill Smith · « **Reply #537 on:** April 07, 2007, 02:12:18 PM »

there should be no offset in the wing and the 2" BC is correct the drawing is not perfect.

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #538 on:** April 07, 2007, 02:36:08 PM »

Many thanks Bill!
Good to have inputs from someone who has -

"Built and flown one!"

I'm sure Frank and Ray will agree.
Roger

Bill Smith · « **Reply #539 on:** April 07, 2007, 05:47:59 PM »

I have a bunch of 1/2A's don't know why I build them, they're not that much easier than the big guys but I just can't help myself.
I am a 1/2a junkie.
have two FAs, a nobler, pinto, several brodak planes, 3 scientific, a full size circus prince on 1/2a, and a half done grumond skyrocket.
I placed in advanced at the Renkar its only a hobby 1/2a contest last year with a FA.
We need more 1/2a contests so I can use this stuff more.
Opps I forgot the Barecat 1/2A!

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #540 on:** April 07, 2007, 07:56:45 PM »

Bill, you're a man after my own heart...I'm obviously very partial to the little stuff too. They can be a challenge but that's half the fun.

Thanks for the input from your FA experience. Always good to listen to someone who, as Roger says, has actually built and flown one! Or even two...

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #541 on:** April 11, 2007, 06:05:11 AM »

It looks like we're all doing other things right now.

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #542 on:** April 11, 2007, 06:40:05 AM »

Yep, family company leaves today. s/b back to building later this week.
Roger

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #543 on:** April 11, 2007, 07:22:48 AM »

I've actually been working on a big ol' .40-powered biplane that's been sitting around here for about 5 years now. I'm getting REAL tired of looking at it and repairing the occasional case of hangar rash, so decided while I'm waiting on some covering material for the FA, to finish thiis thing up so I can fly it once or twice and hang it up in the garage.

Here's what it's doing at my house...Global Warming ain't all it's cracked up to be. Took these pics out my back door this morning...you can see the snowflakes coming down in the second picture. Again, (sigh).

--Ray

Mike Spiess · « **Reply #544 on:** April 11, 2007, 03:36:53 PM »

YEA ain't "SPRING" in Minnesota fun Ray

Bill Little · « **Reply #545 on:** April 11, 2007, 04:40:36 PM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on April 11, 2007, 06:05:11 AM

It looks like we're all doing other things right now.

Hey, Frank! I think I forgot to mention that I got the plans you sent, and thanks! A return letter will be on it's way this weekend. Gotta wait until pay day! LOL!!

Bill <><

frank carlisle · « **Reply #546 on:** April 11, 2007, 05:01:09 PM »

I was starting to wonder what was up with them plans. Thought it was almost time to rattle your chain and see if you got 'em.

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #547 on:** April 11, 2007, 06:18:59 PM »

Cant resist.

Ray, how do you mow the grass with all that white stuff on it??

Roger

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #548 on:** April 11, 2007, 07:37:32 PM »

Oh, that's funny, yeah, rub the salt in good...I'll think about you in August when it's 115 d. down there!!

A true Minnesotan knows how: First you run the snowblower over the yard, then the lawnmower...

I've been told it has snowed somewhere in this state every month except August. I'm beginning to believe it.

--Ray

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #549 on:** April 11, 2007, 07:49:03 PM »

Quote from: minnesotamodeler on April 11, 2007, 07:37:32 PM

Oh, that's funny, yeah, rub the salt in good...I'll think about you in August when it's 115 d. down there!! I'll deserve it when you do!! Roger
A true Minnesotan knows how: First you run the snowblower over the yard, then the lawnmower... Roger

I've been told it has snowed somewhere in this state every month except August. I'm beginning to believe it.

--Ray