I'm just linking in so I can harass Frank during the process. Also so I can be kept up on the posts. I won't be building but I want to follow along.
Bob
Here, in this space, the illustrious team of Frank and Ray (Frank & Ray--Frankenray--Frankenstein?) will endeavor to develop and record for posterity, or until Robert gets tired of it, a new--fresh--original--shrunk-down version of Netzeband's "Fierce Arrow". Stay tuned!
--Ray
I'll have to check my Fierce Arrow 400. It is around a 36" WS from memory. Of course it was designed to use a .15-.19 size engine, with appropriate construction. Mine flies extremely well with a McCoy RH 19, and balance is CRITICAL on it! I got the inspiration to build one from Todd Lee's version which had a Fox 19. GREAT flying machine! (of course, it didn't hurt that Todd was doing the flying. ;D )
Bill <><
Yes Ray, the plan set that I have and am sending you is for the plane in the color photo you posted.
I got these plans from aalub member at RCCD. For some reason he copied two sets of plans onto the same sheet, so it will take some concentration to get them seperated.
Wow, now that's what I call a challenge! Was it printed on thin paper, with another set lying beneath it when he photographed it? Or is it just a double exposure? Oh, I know, it's like that Da Vinci Code thing, a way to keep the design a secret...except to the elect few, those brilliant intellectuals that can crack the code, kinda sorta like you & me, Frank...yeah, that's it.
--Ray
Hi Frank, How 'bout "Arrow1" or "ArrowOne", referring to the .061 size (1 cc)? Best I can do so far.
--Ray
Here is a link to Flying Models Plan CD149 1/2A Fierce Arrow. This is the one I have seen fly very well.http://www.carstens-publications.com/plans_directory.php?search=category&terms=c/l%20stunt&table_orderby=&returnpage=2
Well, there's our plane, Frank...just as I visualized it. Wanna just buy those plans and build it?
--Ray
I just ordered a set of plans. $8 (cheap); $4 S&H (outrageous), total $12. Obviously I agree with your #2. I guess we could still do a "public build" as before.
Not an auspicious day. I ruined my Autogyro, don't get to develop an original little Fierce Arrow, temp here just went below zero with windchill -20+, warnings posted. Brrr.
--Ray
Hey Mike,Hey Ray,
Yeah it should be interesting reading. Can you photograph and post, or something?
--Ray
OK Richard, you asked for it...Really I always intended to post pics if only to give you guys a laugh. I just decided to touch it up a little, and hadn't painted the cowling yet. Just did all that, so as soon as paint dries I'll put it all together and photograph it for posterity. This PM for sure.
--Ray
Well, you've said that twice now, Frank...I appreciate the sympathy and encouragement, but hate to see you have to eat your words, man. Just wait and see. Looks like a 10-year-old did it (probably an insult to 10-year-olds the world over).
--Ray
Frank and Ray you guys should be ashamed of yourselves..............You guys are a HORRIBLE INFLUENCE ON ME!!!!!!!!
First it's a "Slob", now it's 1/2A stunters!!!!!!!!! I love flying my Fierce Arrow 400, now I will have to build a 1/2A Fierce Arrow..............
Frank and Ray you guys should be ashamed of yourselves..............You guys are a HORRIBLE INFLUENCE ON ME!!!!!!!!Hey Bill!
First it's a "Slob", now it's 1/2A stunters!!!!!!!!! I love flying my Fierce Arrow 400, now I will have to build a 1/2A Fierce Arrow..............
HI Frank,
Check your PMs. As to an online build,I would love to............but.......... I have three "clients" plaes that I have to really get to work on. I need to get those done, then..........
Bill <><
Hey Bill!
After turning 2-3 sec laps you might re-consider that .40-.60 sized stunter!! HB~> LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ If you can slow these little guys down, they can be a blast though!!
Long lines, Richard, long lines. Frank's suggestion of 50' may be about right. Then just think of all the room you have for maneuvers! I've mentioned before that I fly my 1/2A stunter on 48' lines; I've used as long as 52'--OK as long as it's calm. Then you can just let the little guys rip along and still turn a leisurely 4-sec. lap (about 55 mph). A Norvel .061 will do that with a 6x2 prop.
Bill, as slow as Frank and I go, tinkering with design and such, you'll probably still be able to get in on this build. After all, how many weeks have we messed with those little autogyros? First post on that thread was Dec. 17. Just now winding down, 6 weeks later. And according to Larry it's basically a 3-hour build...
--Ray
Not yet, but mail hasn't come yet today. I hope...
Yeah, I saw that. Neat plane to have. Might be useful too for comparing with the 1/2A version.
We are amazing, aren't we? Wonder how much band Robert has...
I have set a lot of things on fire, including combat wings that crashed and burned, but never my pants. I think I'll let you keep the lead on that one.
--Ray
Friday and still no plans. I quote Ray---"SIGH".WHAAAaaaaaaa..!! :'(
WHAAAaaaaaaa..!! :'(Hi Rich HIHI%%
You got your motor and kit didn'tya?hehehe.....That a .35 size arrow?
Hi Rich HIHI%%
The box says the Arrow wants a .40-.46. I asked my pal Rick Sawicki about that and he helped me to decide to put a .51 into it.
Hi Frank,
Sir Charles of Reeves flys his Fierce Arrow with an FP 40! Don McClave had a Fox 35 in his, IIRC, as did the original.
BUT! I think an ST G51 is the way to go! As long as the balance can be maintained. Been told often that the CG is critical on the F-As. y1 ;D
Bill <><
Hi Frank,
I am supposing that it's built like the Fierce Arrow 400 I did. The root rib is part of the fuselage side, sorta, on the FA 400. It all builds together around itself!
Can you believe that that monster flew in competition at over 900 squares with a Fox 35???
Bill <><
(snip)--Ray
P.S. Fri. nite--no plans yet. Minus 40 d. windchill, -15 actual temp, predicted for Sat. AM. Why did I ever leave Okla.?
Hi Frank,
I am supposing that it's built like the Fierce Arrow 400 I did. The root rib is part of the fuselage side, sorta, on the FA 400. It all builds together around itself!
Can you believe that that monster flew in competition at over 900 squares with a Fox 35???
Bill <><
So Bill-------Should I start with building the engine crotch and then go from there? Where did you start yours? And puleeze don't say "in the basement".
"Engine crotch"...I love it! Frank, that's one of the funniest things you've said. I always thought you were kinda crotchety.
--Ray
Hi Frank,
Since it's been about 10 years since I built the FA-400, and I haven't looked at the article in about that long, about all I remember is that the plane really was built all together. No separate "assemblies" as such. But, the FA-400 is less than half the size of the regular Fierce Arrow. But, then again,. it is designed pretty much the same................
I think I could build it light enough Bill. I love drilling holes in plywood and using dabs of glue.
Do you still have your FA 400? And if so could you put up some pix? Top and bottom?
If we could get our blamed plans, we could see if the 1/2A version uses that same construction.
--Ray
Well I guess I'll use the weekend to finish painting my LA Heat. I have my work area cleaned up and ready.
I took this picture on impulse.
Sorry the plans didnt come Frank! :'(
I see dust on the Heat! n1
You weren't beating on the bench out of anger, making that dust fly, were you? HB~> LL~
Are you going to do some panel lines on it and maybe some of those cool stencils Robert used on the Tbolt? It'd just take it to another level of "cool"!! 8)
I'm looking forward to the results, irregardless! <=
Dang Frank! That truly sucks, and I hate to see it! What do you think happened? Paint shrinkage? Is it silkspan over wood/ with dope? ???
I'm hi-jacking my own thread here.
(Ahem) It's MY thread, thank you very much...and you may hijack it all you please, I've nothing to talk about anyway. Still no plans.
--Ray
I been finishing a plant stand for wifey. And tinkering with a TeeDee .020 a friend gave me...it was really all gummed up, especially the sprinkler venturi, but it's finally all clean and feels really strong. Haven't run it yet, I'd prefer temps above zero, is that too much to ask?
Oh, and finishing a LilGeo kit order.
--Ray
Yeah, the planes get prettier and the builder gets...well, whatever.
Frank, just an observation, but all those planes in the first pic (oldest) bear a strong resemblance to each other--very high aspect wing and especially stab/elevator. Were they variations on the same design? Or maybe just the style of the day? Good looking planes, anyway. Look a lot better than my plant stands.
--Ray
Well I can tell by reading the article that this is a "Gerry-built plane" #^
Hey, is it my imagination or is there more sheeting on this thing than you'd need to drop a .15 in it? Looks awefully overbuilt to me.
bob
I agree, Bob, I think it could easily stand to lose 2-3 oz. of beef...the article says "14.5 oz" on p. 2, then apparently another one weighed in at 12.5 oz., p. 3. I would hope we could get it down to 10 or 11 oz. range.
At the same time, the center section generally seems to be awfully weak--nothing in the wing runs completely through except the TE...there's a 1/16" ply wedge "carry-thru" at the LE, but that still leaves nearly 9" of chord with no visible means of support. The fuselage even interrupts the 1/32" wing planking on the LE and center section. Unless I'm missing something here.
It appears we could eliminate at least 2 fuselage formers (#5 & 7) without any consequences, strengthwise. Also ribs R-4, -6 and -8 could be half ribs, under the LE planking only. And we gotta drill some holes in, or reduce the cross section of, those 5" long maple motor mounts. And, and, and...
--Ray
I hope I can sleep tonight. While we're at it how about spacing the ribs another 1/4 inch apart each? Then we'd be at 34 inch span. <=
How about sheeting the trailing edge with 1/32 X 1/2 planking and adding a 1/8 strip across the back of that?
See my drawing--------------
That would work very well, looks like, and save a few more grams maybe. That 1/8" sq. strip is already used in one of the spars. Good idea.
I'm a little confused, by the way, about all those wing spars. 1/16" x 1/8"--laid which way? Flat, or on edge? The rib templates are less than no help. And where exactly do they terminate at the center?
The fuselage side, too, looks like it will assume a rather odd shape, part of the wing going through and part not. Guess I'll try later to sketch how I think it's supposed to go. And speaking of the fuselage, I do know from my LittleAxe experience there is WAY too much interior bracing toward the tail. I took nearly all of it out of the latest LA, even cut big lightening holes in the sides, and it is still plenty rigid.
--Ray
Mornin' Frank and Ray!
Just looked at the Fierce Arrow plan and had a couple of "suggestions".
1. "IF" the lead outs will be adjustable, and in adjusting same they have to be further fwd, looks like they might be fwd of the leading edge. Might want to make sure there is no "ram air scoop" effect that allows air into the wing while flying and possibly lifting the covering.
I would balance whatever the inboard configuration is on the outboard side. A wedge shaped shroud, 1/2 round or?? on LE or ??
2. I would add an additional hinge between the hinges shown on plan.
Not trying to interfere, just wanted to pass on some thoughts.
Roger
Mornin' Frank and Ray!
Just looked at the Fierce Arrow plan and had a couple of "suggestions".
1. "IF" the lead outs will be adjustable, and in adjusting same they have to be further fwd, looks like they might be fwd of the leading edge. Might want to make sure there is no "ram air scoop" effect that allows air into the wing while flying and possibly lifting the covering.
I would balance whatever the inboard configuration is on the outboard side. A wedge shaped shroud, 1/2 round or?? on LE or ??
2. I would add an additional hinge between the hinges shown on plan.
Not trying to interfere, just wanted to pass on some thoughts.
Roger
Frank, Ray,
I have lots going on right now. My K-9 training/competing hobby is in its high activity time of year. While I have retired my "guy", I am assisting others to get ready for the Regionals and National Championships.
However - I am going to try to set aside time each day to try to build along with you. should be fun.
My 1/2A Pathfinder and Barecat need some company! y1
Roger
1/8th sides is overkill in my opinion for any 1/2A size plane. 3/32 is stretching it, and would be plenty! Lot's of very large piped planes are built with 3/32nd sides.
Bill <><
Wing spars: The front two look like they're just support for the 1/32" skin; I'm thinking they could be the 1/16" x 1/8" called for, set on edge (1/8" deep slot in the ribs). The third and fourth, supporting the skin edge and across the open bays, need to be a little beefier and are called out as 1/8" square--I think that would work OK.
Note ribs R4, R6 and R8 are reduced to half-ribs in my scheme. Whatcha'll think?
Oh--it doesn't really show up, but I like Frank's TE and plan to use it (1/32" x 1/2" sheet top & bottom, 1/8" square at final TE).
--Ray
Guys,
My lost posts were about weight saved.
In summary, removing (6) ribs/cap strips and a 3/8" strip in four places on center sheeting saves about 4.2 grams (.148 oz.).
The additional LE sheeting adds about 1.8 grams(.063 oz), aditional TE material adds ? TBDL grams.
Frank,
re spinners. Has a source been found?
Roger
Plan MM beams are set about 5/8" apart. I'm gonna take the 1/16" saved by using 3/32" sides in lieu of 1/8", and set mine at 11/16". Overall width should be the same.
Frank, when you say you will build one "according to plan" do you mean stock, 30" span, etc.? Ribs won't be the same.
I ain't plottin' out 2 different sets, nosirreebob.
--Ray
Ray, Frank,
I have two posts to this thread out there in cyber space.
Will hold off on a repeat for awhile.
Roger
Guys,
What are the dimensions of the tank compartment?
I use a 2 oz sullivan cylindrical, gives 6+minutes w/.061. It is shorter than (2) film cannisters and about the same diameter. 1 3/8" dia and approx 3 1/4' long.
I wonder if my plans are in any of the mail trucks/planes stuck in the snow up there?
Roger
Frank, 1/16" alum. is what we want, but I don't know the temper or alloy used. Seems like there was a discussion of that somewhere else. Maybe someone with knowledge will chime in here.
(snip)
--Ray
Hi Guys,
I *think* this is in reference to the LG??
I used the K&S aluminum sheeting to make the LG for my Tomahawk. Maybe .060?? I know it is the size that was close to 1/16th. This plane got a *little* porky (almost 30 oz.) and the gear will spread out every now and then on a rough landing. For the 1/2A Arrow, it would work fine! I would even drill descending size holes in it to lighten it up. I cannot see where a plane this small (under 10 oz., right?) could ever bend that aluminum unless the plane is totalled over tarmac.
Bill <><
Making the LG doesn't require a machinist at all! I made the two part ones for the Tomahawk in about 1/2 hour counting polishing. **)
Now, a "SPINNER", that's a whole different kettle of fish.....
;D
Frank, tell your buddy we'll pay anything reasonable...shouldn't lean on his friendship and good will very hard, esp. for the benefit of guys he doesn't even know! His time is worth something after all.
Seems like the gear oughtta be simple enough fabrication we could do it ourselves if we had the right material. Cut it with a hacksaw (blade in my jigsaw), bend it in a vise I imagine, polish it with a Dremel wheel. Use bolts for axles, right? Nothing to it. Spinner, I agree, is another matter--I'll happily pay for one.
Roger, re: tanks: My film cannisters just barely squeeze into a 1 1/4" wide compartment. I do have the one tank made from ovals (first of my "tank" pics above) that I can use if necessary. total fuse width is 1 7/16" approx., don't think you're gonna squeeze that 1 3/8" plastic bottle in there without some modifying, widening the cowl or something. And Frank, length may not be a problem to you but there's only 3 3/4" there and my double cannisters require every bit of it so that's gonna take some shoehorning...probably rerouting some lines. The one drawback of the .061s...they are thirsty creatures.
--Ray
PLEASE, if you are using the pattern for the formers I posted above, go back and read it again...I made a muh--muh--muh (so hard to say) muh-stake! Sorry.
--Ray
Actually I don't like itat all. We'd have to widen the fuse to 1 1/2" minimum, more if we wanted it to taper into the spinner. That's gonna look awfully bulky--IMO it would throw off the fuse proportions too much. I'd rather do without altogether, myself.
You know what? on that former #2, and the MM rails issue? If we mount the landing gear directly to the MM rails, they will have to be full width back there, at least for the width of the landing gear. Means, that relieved portion can only be about 2 1/4" long at most. I'm not sure it's worth it for a negligent weight loss. I think I'll leave mine full width, full length. 'Course I already cut them, and glued the assembly up, so now I'm back to square one...gotta toss it out and start over. Former #2 is OK as shown; relieved rails are not. Nuts. My apologies.
I'm going back and deleting the msg about relieving the rails. Also the post about the "mistake"--I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken! If I get rid of the evidence,we can just pretend the whole thing never happened.
--Ray
Actually I don't like itat all. We'd have to widen the fuse to 1 1/2" minimum, more if we wanted it to taper into the spinner. That's gonna look awfully bulky--IMO it would throw off the fuse proportions too much. I'd rather do without altogether, myself.
You know what? on that former #2, and the MM rails issue? If we mount the landing gear directly to the MM rails, they will have to be full width back there, at least for the width of the landing gear. Means, that relieved portion can only be about 2 1/4" long at most. I'm not sure it's worth it for a negligent weight loss. I think I'll leave mine full width, full length. 'Course I already cut them, and glued the assembly up, so now I'm back to square one...gotta toss it out and start over. Former #2 is OK as shown; relieved rails are not. Nuts. My apologies.
I'm going back and deleting the msg about relieving the rails. Also the post about the "mistake"--I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken! If I get rid of the evidence,we can just pretend the whole thing never happened.
--Ray
FYI - When I could not find a small spinner for the Pathfinder, I used a 7/8" Du-BRO Norvel Aluminum Spinner (aka Prop Nut) Cat. No. 776. Weighs 10 grams vs. 7 grams for the 1" Veco.
Roger
Frank/Ray,
Spinner nut -
http://www.dubro.com
Select: Dubro AC hardware/Accessories
Enter 776 in the search box - search - scroll down - there 'tis!
re.Where am I?
- search for muffler extension - no good, the one I mentioned was a throttle muffler for RC use. Looking at my "Quiet Flite" setup for possible application, more later.
- Sorting/re-weighing wood supply (It absorbs a little moisture down here)
- Finishing new 1/2A P'Finder, then bench is "clean". Need about 4 hours.
- Doing what you did - Waiting for the mailman! HB~>
Roger
Here's what I did; started over again...and, stubborn mule that I am, relieved what I could, just because I wanted relieved motor mounts. Weight loss = probably nothing; I don't care. Full thickness at back for gear mounting.
Frank,
No plans today. Weather might have caused the delay, hopefully they will arrive tomorrow.
Info for Ray and all -
Brodak has a 1 1/4" spinner, they are working on a 1", no availabilty date as yet.
Roger
Just thought I'd offer that the plane would do quite well as an electric...
::)just to muck up the works,
bob
Interesting, because that's what I planned as well--a balsa nose block to blend into the spinner easier...you can see the cut-short engine beams and gap left between them and the end of the sides, especially in the first 2 or 3 pics of mine above. It's that old thing again about, what is it, great minds, or maybe sick minds, I forget now.
Yup, I used the dims. I had posted in my earlier sketches--the one where I thought I had made a mistake but I was wrong!
The angle of former #2 measures close to 15 d. on the plans, so I made a unilateral descision to make it exactly that.
Frank, next step: Landing gear so we can do the bottom block; engine mounted and tank fabbed and installed so top cowl can be done. Both btm. block and cowl, though, also dependent on having the spinner they'll blend into--so I'm pretty much at a standstill now. Guess I could cut some ribs, after I finish the layout of them.
--Ray
Spinner sounds good, I'm ready to pay whatever he asks (well, within reason...my reason, of course).
I rough-cut the bottom block and cowl block; then couldn't stand it any more--went to work on the alum. gear. Here's the result:
First 3 pics, fabbed gear. Frank, I used your numbers but changed the pattern slightly, to leave the front edge straight and put all the taper in the back edge.
Next 2 pics: Couldn't wait to see how it would install/look.
Last pic: Note how, serendipitiousally (??), the angle on the back edge nearly matches the angle of former #2!
This gear is gonna work fine, I'm very happy with it. Fabricated easily; I bent it by C-clamping it onto my table edge and bending by hand, with just a little light tapping with a hammer. 3/4" long 2-56 bolts, 1 3/4" wheels, nylon lock nuts for keepers. Thanks, Frank, for tips and dimensions.
--Ray
Bill, I've seen those holes you speak of and they do look really cool...I don't know if I'll try that or not; this is not a particularly hard temper--I pretty much bent it with my bare hands and I ain't that much of a hoss. The LG assembly, sans wheels, weighs about 1/2 oz. as it sits. Not bad.
Frank, the axle is about 1/4" ahead of the plan location, no more, maybe a little less. If anything, along with the bigger wheels it'll enhance its grass-field landing and takeoffs a little. I'm content with it. Onward to other things!
Next challenge: Cowling carving! Oh yeah, and those rib layouts...
Frank,
Tank capacity is approximately 1.4 oz. This is just under 5 minutes for my Norvel .061. Dont have estimate for the TD, it should be more.
No plans in today's mail. f~ mailman
I guess when I start cutting wood I'll be reading your flight test reports. HB~>
Air Festival was great! Invited back next year by the RC club!!!!!!!!!
Roger
I wondered about how far forward that axle would be once you changed the layout. As I had it, it was about a 16th forward. I don't think that it's going to make much differeence either way. Originally I wanted to lay the lg out the way you did, but I refrained for fear of being chided.
Cowling carving sounds like fun. How about attaching it like we did on the Snapper?
Chided...is that anything like being smoted? (Hope we don't start that again)
Cowl attachment TBDL (ain't that a handy acronym?) The Snapper method is a distinct possibility. A bolt through the top seems to be tempting the fates to make it a two-piece cowling. (risking a split down the middle, if that's too vague.) Besides, looks like we're gonna need every bit of that tank compartment for tank.
I'm shopping for some new CAD software; the Intellicad I'm using has some bugs in it I'm tired of working around. Only Autocad I can find is $900, a little rich for my blood. Must be some decent imitations in a little more reasonable price range, right? Suggestions welcomed from any quarter.
--Ray
Frank,
I launch my .061 at 22,500, it tachs in the air approximately 25000 (we have an audio tach in the club).
For 6 1/2 minutes I would need about 1 5/8 -1 3/4 oz tank.
Using your current tank cross section, the 6 1/2 minute tank would have to be about 3" long.
When I get the plans I want to determine if I can go "through" the slanted former/bulkhead to extend tank compartment to get closer to 2 oz.
IF I get to fly the new Pathfinder before you build the next tank, I can short tank it to check my numbers for 6 1/2 minutes.
Roger
Note: "Your mileage may vary!" ;)
I believe you've struck gold here Mr. V!! That prop nut will do just fine. What catalog is it in? Can you give us a link to that page?
Where are you at in this process?
Yes chided is like smoting. I'd like to see it again I had about 60 points toward sainthood when it got cut out. Dang!!
I'm going to use 1/16 piano wire in a horse shoe shape coming up through the tank floor with little hooks to rubberband the fuel tank in. Just like you see on many profile models. It's ugly but it's internal and it's about the only thing there is room for.
I think for my Norvel powered Arrow I'll cut an opening in former #2 to accomodate a longer tank. I'll have to look at the plans first and see what's going on back there.
I don't think the cowl needs to be so long either. I'll do some drawings tomorrow for a tank that slides into the compartment instead of dropping in as it does now
Are the tank corners outside the fuselage radius?
--Ray
I have high hopes of plans arriving today, soooo-
I'm going out now toshovel snow, oops,, mow the lawn. Sorry guys! #^ Roger
No plans. No mail.
Presidents Day, Gov't holiday.
Roger
Cowl anchoring looks great: Simpler than the Snapper method...the brass tube eliminates the problem of overtightening and splitting the cowl...Located in center, not either end, that's good...think you'll still need alignment pins of some kind? I'm still impressed...
--Ray
Frank,
Arghhh, I need plans.
:! Looked at your nose/cowl photos, dont have dimensions, and thought -
You might want to consider adding a small air scoop/chin scoop "under" the engine to provide cooling air to the crankcase, which can also flow upward and out the "vent".
Roger
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the compliment Bill. Overbuilding is pandemic in our CL community. I get guilty of over building by adding louvers and ply windscreens decorating the model with stuff not necessary for it to function. Crash proof a plane?? I see guys put a load of epoxy on wing joints and bellcranks etc. but they always justify it by saying "I'll end up crashing it anyway". Not me!! I don't crash. Well..........at least it's not an integral part of my program. ::)
I think the Snapper is a great example of not overbuilding a small plane. And speaking of Snappers I'm guessing by the time you're done with yours it'll be within a quarter oz, of what mine and Ray's came out. Our Snppers RTF were around 6 1/2 0z.
Yup, Roger, plans call for 1/4 oz., not much. Would be good to have a box we could adjust that with. As far forward as you could make it, inside the LE sheeting. I think a cute little hatch could be done.
I can't believe nobody has any comments on all my pics above. Too embarrassed to say anything about my shoddy workmanship, or what? C'mon, I can take it...I thought the hole through former #2 was rather well done; ditto bottom block. Clever tank. Nice looking gear. You can think of something!
--Ray
Good for you, Roger...Here's my layout for 3" rib spacing, no half-ribs, on a wing stretched to 34" span.
Fellas, here's my offerings as to Te options:
First pic--as plans, as near as I can tell.
2nd--Frank's idea.
3rd--Roger's idea.
4th--"interior" TE
5th--sort of a combination of several.
Also, a pic of my suggested fuselage/fin mods. Everything I consider redundant is crossed off.
Reactions, suggestions?
--Ray
Ray,
Are you going to put a small dowel/pin in rear of cowl block to go through a small hole in top of F-2 to align and anchor rear of cowl?
Roger
I'm in the "gathering mode". Wood, plans, ideas, notes............
Will start on Nose Assy this week/weekend.
Roger
Thanks for sending the patterns Ray. I'll do what Roger did and send you a reimbursement.
Roger, the intended design is for the LE to extend about 1/16" beyond the rib ends (rib patterns are set up that way); the 1/32" sheeting is to be butted up to, and glued to, the flat surface of the LE...the entire front edge of the LE piece should be exposed. Then some minimal sanding/shaping completes the LE assembly. Not a problem; it's a method used on many designs. But keep thinking! Great! Understand. When I scaled the print, the LE did not extend past the ribs.
Here's an easy system for attaching the Le sheeting: Using yellow wood glue (but Elmer's would probably work too--I just haven't tried it), I put a liberal bead of glue on all the mating surfaces on the wing--LE, rib tops, spars. I then carefully press the sheeting into place, as close as I can get it to its final position...then pull it back off. I check to see that the glue has left continuous beads on the underside of the sheeting--I fill in any gaps. Then lay it aside and let everything dry (apart). Then get your covering iron, or your wife's clothes iron, position the sheeting exactly where it should go, and press it on with the iron. The dried yellow glue becomes a heat-sensitive adhesive. Instant bond, all glue joints continuous, no pin holes! Works like a charm.
JUst thought I'd toss that in while we're on the subject of LEs. I've never tried this, heard of it, will try it on this one. Roger
--Ray
I'm feeling like a delinquent for not participating in the build these last few days guys. Sorry.
I'm checking in on our thread every day and following the progress. Ray you're moving right along but Roger has some catching up to do.
I like Frankenstone Arrow but it will be hard to get all that on this little wing.
Ray,
Mailed something (via USPS) to you , today. H^^
Roger
Hey Frank,
Is that 1 1/8" dia.? Very nice. Next question: How much?? And how long (time-wise, that is)?
--Ray
Page 8...a new record.
Ray,
Great photo's! Thanks.
re Landing gear. We might want to consider a small gap in the sheeting and a small piece of flexible/soft foam (ie AC line insulation) to absorb some flexing, on the outboard side of the LG leg as it might flex outboard into the sheeting and damage same, "IF" we land hard ( I know - we never do that!).
My F-1, F-2 and Carry Through are done.
MM next.
Roger
Ray, My favorite prop for the Norvel .061 is the APC 6x2. It allows the revs the small engine wants, ie consistent engine runs and does not load it down.
Roger
He has a set of plans also and is planning on building your version of the Arrow. I don't know how soon he'll get started or if he will participate with us, but he'll be building one too.
He wanted to know if he could get the CAD folder from you. Apparently he can produce plexi-glass templates on one of his machines.
I sent Jan a link to your post about the cad file Ray. I sure hope he posts here. y1
Jan contacted me via email; I sent him the CAD drawings I have. Just waiting now to see if he can get them in usable form.
--Ray
Ahhhh... the good ol' optivisor! Geez, Frank, I didn't know that you needed one of those, too! **)
With my 8 pairs of reading glasses and my tri-level optivisor, I can see better than when I was a kid! LOL!!
Bill <><
I don't need anything that magnifies my mistakes...
--Ray
P.S. Frank, you know that little materials list I gave you was just for the wing, right? Better add another sheet or two of 1/16" for the fuselage.
Looking good Ray. Now that you've shown us the way, I am going to cut ribs today and get this wing built. Maybe I'll one up you and put a 4 inch bellcrank in mine.
Do you already have some of the sheeting on the wing?
Have you given any thought as to how you are going to finish it? Monocote? Dope and Tissue?
So your adjustable lead out stays exposed and that portion of the wing tip doesn't get covered?
HI YALL;
I haven't posted on this before so I thought I'd let you know someone else was watching your progress. So far after seeing ALL the posts you guys have become pretty good problem solvers. When will it be ready for the rest of us? Seriously you are to be commended for your staulwart(did I spell that right) effort on this project. I will be watching to see the final results. You have taken on a monumental task by what I have read so far. Keep up the good work.
"Billy G"
PS-----Frank BRBV means I got big fingers LOL
Ray I want to try that iron on method of yours. What is the brand name of the glue you use?
The sheeting looks good. You're getting way ahead of me.
I went to see Snoopy. You must have kids around.
Frank,Roger,
1/16" LE sheeting will add approx. 8.8grams/.3 0z.. Then we add additional weight for thicker capstrips which will have to be sanded to blend in to the TE sheeting.
Suggest we wait and see how the pin/glue method works.
Ray,
D>K I believe the F-2 Blkhd is angled to provide " the angle and locating surface for the wire LG".
We are using Formed Al gear mounted to the underside of the MM's.
Question: I studied your latest photo's, great work!!!!! Based on where you are on Final Assembly, do you think F-2 could be installed vertically and moved aft to the area of the second wing spar?
If so, I believe the round Sullivan 2 oz tank can be made to fit if "heated and squeezed" a little .
MM will have to be extended aft to mount F-2 but some of the extra length at front can be eliminated trying to keep MM wt. the same.
I'll try to heat/squeeze a tank if you believe F-2 can be located, as above.
Roger
Roger,
F2 could probably be moved as you suggest; it would have to be resized (smaller) since it would gain a little height, not sure how much without laying it out. Just watch that you don't encroach on your bellcrank space. It would add some weight, as you note the MM beams must be extended with it, ditto the ply. tank floor...then that leaves the landing gear with less support too, especially if you try thinning the MM's down to lose some of the add'l weight. Or if you cut some new gear with more forward sweep, perhaps it too could be moved back and mounted where the beams are supported by F2.
2 oz. fuel capacity is probably worth the effort if you wanted to run a little rich and still have that 6-7 minute engine run that the whole pattern would require. I'll do a little checking in CAD and see what all is involved, later this AM.
I also agree you ought to wait on changing the sheeting to 1/16"--center section sheeting would also have to be changed; to really fit, the TE would need to be the same stuff. I think it might add more weight than we realize. I'll add the underside sheeting this AM also with "pins and glue" and see how it looks.
On that note, Frank, you really want me to post pics of my bad construction??!! What kind of masochist do you think I am? heh heh just kidding. I'll try to get some pics of it too. If the bottom comes out better I'll probably remove the top and redo it anyhow.
--Ray
Lets not forget that you'll be adding nose weight with the spinner attached.
Those ribs are a pain, for sure...Roger, they look good to me. If you're concerned about that little tab missing on R1 between the two 1/8" spars, don't be...not even practical to try to keep it in there; if you get it cut OK you'll knock it out when installing the spars. I wouldn't worry about it (don't, even). It'll be covered by the center section sheeting anyhow. Also looks like R3 needs the 1/8" square cut off the back. I can't see another thing wrong.
Ray, Thanks, I agree with all of the above but they just seem bad to me. But then, sheeting and cap strips do hide alot of ah sh**s! n~
IMO boxing in the spars at R6 and 7 isn't necessary. You know to notch the rib only 1/16" deep, and on the spar a matching 1/16" deep notch...then taper the spars from that notch to the end (3") down to 1/16", themselves. When it's all glued together at the end, it makes a good substantial structure...besides, not much stress on the spars 'way out at the tip like that. But you can judge all that after you get it together, and box in the spars if it looks necessary to you. Yes, the "idea" re. boxing will wait until wing assembled, like your idea better. Like Frank said, these will be 3 different versions of the same plane!
On the carrythrough at the bottom, for your wider tank: Seems like the front tongue ought to be the same narrower dimension as the original, or else your MM beams will be too widely spaced or not in contact with the sides... maybe you could build out the sides with soft balsa blocks or something. Or use wider beams..., that's it; it's why the lower F1 has notches rather than holes. Sorry, you're way ahead of me. I'm slow sometimes but usually do get there. So am I , that's why it took so long for pics! n~
re. Fabbing your fuselage sides. D>K I was thinking about this. Have you thought of transferring sheeted R-1 outline to an over size sheet, sand/trim for fit , then cut the forward(vertical), top/bottom (longitudinal)fuselage lines?
Roger
--Ray
Obviously you are not new to modeling. Please keep the posts and pictures coming.
New to "modeling"?? I think Roger probably gave Oba St. Clair some tips on C/L flying......................?????????Bill,
(love ya man! ;D )
Bill <><
Well, I grew up in the cultural desert of Oklahoma, so don't know who "Oba St. Clair" is, but I think I get the drift! Roger, you gonna take that laying down?? Nope, see my reply! :-) Roger, I'm not following your last point...can't visualize what you have in mind. Keep in mind the LE sheeting needs a shelf to sit on/attach to at the fuselage sides, which is what rib R1 provides. that may have nothing to do with what you're proposing since, as I say, I can't picture it. Indulge my slowitude and try again!Ray, I interpreted your note as indicating you were concerned about fabbing the sides to match existing/sheeted R-1 contour. Knowing it will be a trial and error fit, what I plan to do is overlay the plans and trace the "sheeted R-1" outline.
--Ray
Looks good, Roger...that's 2 oz. tank, right? Yes! It should be a fun plane, no reason for short flights unless it turns out nose heavy with a full tank. That oughtta be plenty!
I been tinkering around with the main fuselage...determined the construction method in the article has no advantage; I'm doin' it the "old-fashioned way"-- gonna finish sheeting the wing, then build the fuse on the wing rather than a separate component. I see much difficulty in maintaining alignment of all the parts/pieces otherwise. Agree!
I'll have a pattern for the fuse sides developed soon (have it already; just need to use it & see that it actually fits). Roger, with your MM assembly 1/4" taller and somewhat wider, you'll need to adjust my pattern accordingly if you use it.
They look good, you are doing all the trail blazing work, thanks! I can use the patterns as a starting point, for sure.
Once the sides are on, can you weigh it to give us an idea of what it is at this stage? Roger --Ray
New pics...
#1: Fuselage parts
#2: F4 and F6 on fuselage ((F3 was already there)
#3: Flapilator ready to hinge
#4: The "parts" patterns I'[ll be sending to you guys if you want 'em.
Ray, Frank and Roger;
Outstanding work. Ray that last set of pictures was awesome. Looks like it won't be much longer. You guys are to be commended, this has been a labor of love. It has been a pleasure to watch the three of you bring it all together. Will this be availlable to the rest of us when you finish? Please don't stop now keep up the magnificent work, you three are truely professionals.
"Billy G" #^ #^ #^
Ray, thanks for the "current weight".
Hmm, nose heavy.
I glued the mounts to F-2 and the carry through last night, did not lighten mounts. Think I'll get out the Dremel and do that.
Hope to start on nose assy today, "with photo's to follow". y1
I "was" going to use built up flaps, looks like we need weight aft.
D>K If tail skid/wheel doesnot add enough weight, we "might" consider a small weight box in fuselage behind F-8. Cant go any further aft, unless we build a tail boom. LL~.
Roger
Yup, it remains to be seen how much the covering/finishing will pull the CG back, I know flying wings are very sensitive to that, what with their short couplings and all. If it turns out to be needed, another change I might make on a "next" FA is to shorten the nose, move the engine back maybe 1/2" or 3/4". Hope it isn't necessary as it would change the look.
Speaking of looks, I'm glad you talked me into enlarging the rudder, Frank. To me it looks just right; I think it would indeed have been too small left stock. (I added 1/4" of height and 1/2" of length--Patterns I'm sending reflect that.)
Ray, Frank and Roger;
Outstanding work. Ray that last set of pictures was awesome. Looks like it won't be much longer. You guys are to be commended, this has been a labor of love. It has been a pleasure to watch the three of you bring it all together. Will this be availlable to the rest of us when you finish? Please don't stop now keep up the magnificent work, you three are truely professionals.
"Billy G" #^ #^ #^
These comments are very flattering Bill. Thanks.
At this point the question might be possed "how many stunt fliers does it take to change a light bulb?" On the other hand one could pose the question how many pages does it take to build the wing of a half a sized airplane? Not complaining mind you. Was just curious. ::)
bob branch y1
I add my hearty "amen" to that. Thank you, Bill, for the compliments. There's something to try to live up to!
--Ray
Sorry Guys;
Been busy bustin Leo Ms' chops, Ain't been here to cheer you along. Where pray tell did Roger come up with that "Stealth Pipe" ( Where? go to - flyquiet.com Roger)You use that thing and you won't even know the engine is running. Gotta go got more fish to fry LOL See ya all later, yer doin good Boys.
Billy G" VD~
Ray,
Thanks, I spent more time on D>K than building, so far.
re. Canopy/windscreen whatever. An idea, again D>K, Once pattern is finalized,
transfer it to 1/32 balsa and form to fit. Once formed it can be strengthened from the rear/inside with CF or polyeurethane or finishing resin or ??. Paint exterior with a canopy type grey and then install. Just my thought as I do not plan to do any cockpit details.
I will mow grass today ;), then work on cowl.
Roger
Ray,
Thanks, I spent more time on D>K than building, so far.
re. Canopy/windscreen whatever. An idea, again D>K, Once pattern is finalized,
transfer it to 1/32 balsa and form to fit. Once formed it can be strengthened from the rear/inside with CF or polyeurethane or finishing resin or ??. Paint exterior with a canopy type grey and then install. Just my thought as I do not plan to do any cockpit details.
Frank,
Where is the cg on the full size plans? Bill N. said location is critical on this design.
I will mow grass today ;), then work on cowl.
Roger
Ahh, guess I'm the oldest! But you know that, my "friend" Bill ( The Big Bear) already went on the record to state that!
You forgot "Blue dots!"
Hi All;
You ain't gonna figure out who is the oldest that way. Maybe it's me? Wanna see who is doin all this writtin to ya? Frank already saw. Follow these directions:
1) Go to the Stunt Grunt Section
2) Find the Grand Pappy Thread
3) open it up and scroll down for a big surprise
You guys gotta get out more often LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
"Billy G" VD~ VD~ VD~
LL~ VD~ VD~ VD~ VD~ NOPE VD~ VD~ VD~ VD~ LL~
"THE G-MAN"
I THINK I'LL WAIT FOR ALL THE VOTES TO BE IN........... y1
Post some old pictures, we won't know the difference anyway.
--Ray
Roger, the short answer is "no", there is no asymmetry built into the drawings I did, nor IMO is there in the original. If there was intended to be, I'm certain it would be more than 3/16".
In your measuring, you might check the wingspan on the original plans--on my set it measures 30 1/8" or slightly over; supposed to be 30" even. I'm closer to 30 1/4" .This is typical of blueprint-type plans, they tend to stretch/shrink just a little in the printing, and not evenly either. That's why you often saw a "ruler" included on hand-drawn plans--so you could check for just that problem. Understand, we used "trammel points on lofting drawings, way back when I started to earn a living!first Also hand-drawn plans don't--can't--have the precision pinpoint accuracy we're used to from CAD drawings. Understand.
So in our case, we have a 2" bellcrank called out, but the drawing scales 1 7/8" edge to edge. Most (but not all) of the called-out 3/16" capstrips actually measure slightly under that. 1 1/2" wheel measures 1 7/16"; but the 1 1/8" spinner is right on mark. And so on.
This is exactly why I prefer to work from called-out dimensions whenever possible, or CAD-generated patterns.
I don't care for offset wings anyhow; but if the original calls for it I will do it (re: Snapper). Lots of other guys with lots of experience and knowledge do use them, however probably just as many similarly-qualified guys don't. Your call.
If you want to stretch the inboard wing, or trim the ouboard, 3/16"--even 1/2"--it's easy to do at the "uncovered" stage, but I doubt it will make a noticeable difference in the way it flies one way or the other.
Will D>K D>K D>K and reconsider.
As Jimmy Dean used to say, "Whatever melts your butter."
Roger
--Ray
It looks like we're all doing other things right now.
Oh, that's funny, yeah, rub the salt in good...I'll think about you in August when it's 115 d. down there!! I'll deserve it when you do!! n~ Roger
A true Minnesotan knows how: First you run the snowblower over the yard, then the lawnmower... y1 Roger
I've been told it has snowed somewhere in this state every month except August. I'm beginning to believe it.
--Ray
Bladder pressure, flying tail, 555 squares...crazy handle from coat hanger wire and duct tape, bellcrank "suspended" on nylon cord (???), 22 d. engine offset (!!!), about a kazillion pieces, looks like complication for complication's sake, and not even very pretty...
You guys are on your own with this one.
--Ray
I was wondering what you were up to Ray..........The bipe looks real good......
It is a pain cutting the ribs this way......I much prefer stacking them. Sigh.
Looks like we're going to be good for another hundred replies or so here. Looks like anything we touch takes an awful lot of yakking and pictures to get it done.
Have you put any trim on your arrow yet? It looks good the way it is but there just isn't enuff fuss put into it yet.
I wonder what color I'll paint mine? I'm sort of thinking red,white& blue.
Thanks but I screwed up.
I just grabbed the plane and went to the contest.
No practice and grabbed the wrong fuel (norvels do not like caster) and with a plane this size engine run is very important.
so the run sucked, but I made it through the pattern and the FA looked a lot better than my flying.
I love this shot.
SoooooBill,
Other than Ray have any of you guys made progress?
There haven't been any posts for a while.
they do fly well.
... I was told that there are some additives in some of the fuels that can also cause problems but I don't know what they are I just found that the Norvel fuel worked better in Norvel engines and I try to stick with it, though I could probably use less nitro.
We'll be looking forward to watching your progress. I have one I got part way built last year. Maybe I'll be able to get to it soon.
Yes Ray....built to original plan.
I'm back to working on that 1/2A Fierce Arrow again.
Ray what did you use for a control horn in your model?
By the way Ray this thread was started ( 1-24-07 ) three years ago! My Arrow is already old. n1
Still fighting it, Frank...nothing has worked so far, fast approaching the final attempt at binocular vision, which will be a contact lens on one eye and corrective glasses lenses for both. Sounds like a hassle but if it'll get me 3D back it'll be worth it. I'm tired of living in a 2D world. If that doesn't do it I'll just get a pirate's patch I guess.
Now awaiting surgery for vocal cord nodules in a couple of weeks. You'd think I could get one thing fixed before something else broke...
About time, I say.
Cover it with SLC from the CoreHouse and show the construction. H^^
Hey guys----I'm glad to see you're all busy.
Larry--I like the Skystreak--I've seen a couple swept wing forward designs in my day. I always wanted one.-also-I have a kit Fierce Arrow from RSM. It's huge. I hope a Brodak .40 will provide enough grunt.
Bill I'd like to see your Snapper. I think I still have one in a kit from Ray around here somewhere. I'd like to see what you do for a windscreen on it.
Ray-I hope you're doing o.k. Have you been able to fly?
I have my Arrow ready to cover. There are two planes in front of it. One is a Vector 40 made to look like a jet. Then there is the LA Warmth which is a new release from RSM. I had the honor of getting to build the first kit. It's laser cut and it builds real easy.
I don't need to fly the Arrow till September so it may be several months till it gets worked on some more. No rush though. I've already been building it for three years.