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Author Topic: Luftwaffe Camo  (Read 10422 times)

Rick_Huff

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Luftwaffe Camo
« on: February 04, 2016, 04:10:41 PM »
Hi everyone,
I'm nearing the painting stage of my new PA plane, a Messerschmitt Bf 110, and need advice for the camo paint scheme.  I thought the scale forum would be the right place to find some help.  I've done a little research and I like the mid-war, summer camo pattern of RLM 74, 75 and 76 colors.  I've never painted a camo pattern, so any advice would be helpful.  Has anyone here built a plane with Luftwaffe camo?  Does anyone sell RLM paint, or paint chips that I could match? 
Thanks in advance,
Rick

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2016, 04:41:41 PM »
These color chips are advertised with the plastic modeling magazines, I have one set of their color chips (RAF) and they are good stuff

I have been collecting information on the BF-110 for awhile and trying to find a picture that matches a camo scheme is hard to find, I will look thru my files and see what I have

http://www.iliad-design.com/charts.html

Sometimes the paint line is a hard edge and other times it's a soft edge. I would not be surprised if the exact shapes on the photographs match the camo pattern drawings.

Klass Kote sells paint that is pre-mixed to match the military colors

http://www.klasskote.com/military_colors

Fred
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 05:23:16 PM by Fred Cronenwett »
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2016, 05:40:35 PM »
Good resource Fred,,
of course the web represented colors are not uh,, representative of the colors,,

I bought a set of color chips and mixed my own for my bf 109 stunter,,

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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2016, 05:55:42 PM »
found this on a google image search, typical grey bottom with the camo pattern on top. the dog on the nose is well documented

Fred

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Rick_Huff

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2016, 06:11:32 PM »
Fred, Mark,
Thanks for the replies.  I ordered the paint chips and will try to match them when i get them.  I agree about the actual Bf 110 photos, its very hard to pick out the pattern.  There's lots of photos on a google search, but most of them are of models (not that there's anything wrong with that!). 
As a novice to scale planes, were the planes painted at their home fields to match the missions?  If so, I'd guess that there was a fair amount of leeway in the details of the camo pattern.
Rick

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2016, 06:57:22 PM »
 
 LOT's of great ideas here...

 http://www.markstyling.com/
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2016, 08:25:52 PM »
I pulled out my copy of the iliad RAF color chips and they agree with the other RAF color chips I have, so the website gives you can idea of what the color is but the actual color chip you get is very good and also comes with some paint schemes shown. The RAF pack included some spitfire or Hurricane paint schemes shown.

One project I have never started is a CL scale Bf-110 because the documentation is tough to get. The wartime pictures were not that good compared to today and the information is less than complete. for CL scale I really need a full walk around of one airplane and clearly shows the paint job and markings. I can prove the colors but proving the paint scheme is not as easy.

I have heard that the wartime paint jobs varied and the colors may or may not per specification.  The wartime aircraft probably did not look anything like a restored warbird flying today in terms of the paint job quality.

Good luck with the Bf-110!

Fred
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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2016, 09:03:58 PM »
Another idea for the color scheme and camo pattern....the good plastic models often have really good information, and sometimes have color 3-views of the airplanes. since you are not entering scale competition you don't have to be as picky has CL scale pilots are and have some liberty on the paint scheme.

Fred
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2016, 09:14:34 PM »

 Oops, sorry, for some reason I was thinking '109 when I added my above reply. Anyway, there are a lot of great schemes to check out on that site.

 How about some photos of your 110?
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Wayne Willey
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2016, 09:33:15 PM »
I really want to do a semi scale stunt version of this airfame,  S?P
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Rick_Huff

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2016, 05:47:05 AM »
I don't think I'd even call my plane "semi scale", so I can be "creative" with the paint scheme.  I want to get it as close as possible though.  Here is a photo of the plane on the paint stand (sans flaps, elevators and cowls).  The carbon veil has been applied and I am now filling the weave with dope and zinc stearate. 
Rick

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2016, 08:39:21 AM »
I like it ,,
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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2016, 10:35:45 AM »
like it...nothing like twins, when I get all four motors going on the B-29 it gets my juices flowing!

Fred
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2016, 06:27:54 PM »
I don't think I'd even call my plane "semi scale", so I can be "creative" with the paint scheme.  I want to get it as close as possible though.  Here is a photo of the plane on the paint stand (sans flaps, elevators and cowls).  The carbon veil has been applied and I am now filling the weave with dope and zinc stearate. 
Rick

 Wow, that's awesome, looks great! How about some specs? Power? Please keep the photos coming! y1
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Wayne Willey
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Rick_Huff

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2016, 06:31:45 AM »
The plane has a 54" wingspan, which puts it pretty close to 1/12 scale.  It's electric powered with two Cobra 2808/16 motors, and has electric retracts on the main gear.  The weight "goal" is 55 oz, and I think that still might be attainable.  By the way, I just found out that there's a Bf 110 in the "Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin".  There's lots of great photos of the plane, but unfortunately, nothing from above so we can't see much of the camo pattern. 
Rick

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2016, 03:12:29 PM »
I think that is one of the few restored Bf-110's and the large spinners indicate it is one of the later versions, the G model I believe. The artist 3-view I posted a few days ago is the C, D or E model with the smaller spinners. There were not that many changes between the C and G model aircraft.

That camo pattern would be difficult to paint! and you are right without a top view picture you guessing on what the top of the wing really looks like

Fred
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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2016, 03:19:37 PM »
Found this color 3-view, that has some good info....


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Rick_Huff

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2016, 04:53:36 PM »
Fred,
Thanks for the 3-D views.  I like that pattern.  Do you have any idea why they used the yellow?  Seems a little counter to the camo theme. 
Rick

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2016, 06:34:21 PM »
I don't know the reason behind the yellow bands but you are right sort of makes the aircraft easy to spot despite the Camo scheme

Fred
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2016, 12:00:50 AM »
To identify the leaders, and different units.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2016, 11:13:49 AM »
To identify the leaders, and different units.

++

what Chris said
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2016, 11:19:24 AM »
 The Squadron/Signal publication "In Action" books are always great references as well. In them you will find many period photos, line drawings of practically every type, and various color profiles. This would be 13 bucks well spent...

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/SQUADRON-SIGNAL-MESSERSCHMITT-Bf110-ZERSTORER-IN-ACTION-ZG-NIGHTFIGHTER-NJG-/390900020396?hash=item5b0374f4ac:g:VrsAAOxyVLNSyhXb
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Offline Jeff Traxler

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2016, 08:05:16 AM »
Hi Rick,
     I would use a scheme that has the yellow or other vivid color if only a little.I did a camo paintscheme on a warbird and lost it in the trees and shadows.I was really suprised how well the camo hid the plane against the backround.I had to paint the rudder yellow for reference and it was still hard to see sometimes.A snapped cable ended that headache.Trax
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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2016, 01:25:34 PM »
"I did a camo paintscheme on a warbird and lost it in the trees "

Jeff,
 I lost one in the trees too.  It took a chainsaw to get it back! (hah hah hah!)

Rick

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2016, 05:56:14 PM »
There is a 110 at the Battle of Britain Museum at Hendon outside of London. I'd think that a plastic modeling forum member or two may have done a walk around on it. I didn't think of it having difficult documentation, I like the Profile Publications stuff on it and might be perfect for a Stunt model. Love the looks.
Chris...

Rick_Huff

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2016, 12:55:32 PM »
I received the paint chips and the Squadron/Signals book.  I'm now set in what I want to do, the only question I still have is about the paint itself.  The Klasskote website shows RLM paints that differ quite a bit in color from the chips I received from Iliad.  Has anyone used the Klasskote RLM colors? 
Also, can one make a lightweight finish with the Klasskote epoxy paint?  I typically use acrylic urethane auto paint for my planes and have no experience with Klasskote.  I have had no luck in cross referencing RLM paints to either Dupont or Martin Senour auto paint.  Has anyone had better luck?
Rick

Offline chuck snyder

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2016, 06:10:03 PM »
Rick, I use Klass Kote on all my scale models. I only need one coat to get good coverage, so I suppose it is reasonably light. I used pre-mixed colors on an R/C SBD and the colors were a dead on match to the respective FS color chips. On all the other models I mixed my own colors from the several colors I have on hand.
Chuck

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2016, 07:10:59 AM »
The actual camo problem is very serious at The Brodak with all the trees in the background.  In both scale & stunt, camo and dark-colored planes are hard for the judges to see.  I guess if you fly badly this might help.  But if you are good it could limit your upside.
Paul Smith

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2016, 07:45:08 AM »
Rick, I use Klass Kote on all my scale models. I only need one coat to get good coverage, so I suppose it is reasonably light. I used pre-mixed colors on an R/C SBD and the colors were a dead on match to the respective FS color chips. On all the other models I mixed my own colors from the several colors I have on hand.
Chuck

Chuck,

Can you Post a photo or two?

I never tried that Brand.

Klass Kote is Epoxy paint, correct?

Is it a two part mix? Can it be dusted to eliminate that tape edge to some degree?

Can Klass Kote be easily sanded to eliminate that tape edge and to remove high areas or orange peel?

Flat finish right out of the can? Are the clear coats offered in matt, semi-matt or gloss?

Sorry about all the questions, but it's best to get information about a product from a person that has actually used that product and not just read something about it.

Thanks in advance.

Charles
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Offline chuck snyder

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2016, 03:10:46 PM »
Charles,
Klass Kote is a 1:1 two-part epoxy. It has to react for about 45 minutes before spraying or brushing. I then add 1/2 part Klass Kote reducer (very expensive) and 1.5 parts lacquer thinner from Walmart. I have never developed a technique to eliminate tape edges. The cured paint can be sanded, but you'll need lots of elbow grease. There are two hardeners available, gloss and satin. Extra flattening agent can be purchased separately. Gloss and satin can be mixed in any ratio to get the desired amount of gloss. Two photos of my C/L Henschel 129.
Chuck
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 03:35:03 PM by chuck snyder »

Rick_Huff

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2016, 03:22:16 PM »
Chuck,
That's a beautiful plane.  Are those RLM 74,75 and 76?  I can definitely see the need for some yellow on the plane so I'll be able to see it while flying.
Rick

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2016, 03:32:45 PM »
Rick, thanks for your kind comment. The colors are RLM 70, black green, RLM 71 dark green, and RLM 65 light blue. Or at least that is what they are supposed to be ;D
Chuck

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2016, 03:35:50 PM »
Chuck,

Nice looking models, looks like you take Scale seriously.  H^^

Thanks for the info.

Sounds like the Klass Kote works like the older K&B Epoxy we used years ago in R/C?

I'm always interested in modeler's methods of finishing, but I'm not sure I want to use an Epoxy system.

Did you see my Mig-3?

Artists acrylic, Tamiya water base, Krylon aerosol cans and automotive 2K clear also in an aerosol cans.  LL~

Charles
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2016, 06:20:16 PM »
Klass Kote I believe is the same basic product,, more or less , than superpoxy,,
I imagine it to be very durable,, but for doing multiple colors like a soft edge camo scheme, I would have some concern about dry edge overspray afecting the semi gloss , though if doen right that coule actually be an enhancment to the scale effect since moste real camo schemes are not uniform gloss with respect to the color egdes,,
I did my bf 109 with base clear automotive system and mixed my own colors to match the color chips. I was pretty happy, I used a flattening agent in the clear to get the level of gloss/matte I needed
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Rick_Huff

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2016, 12:21:34 PM »
It's finally warming up enough to think about painting the Bf110 and I have a question about the "softness" of the paint edges.  Most of the camo planes I've seen in PA used an airbrush without any masking.  This leaves a very soft edge.  Is this too soft?  Photos of Luftwaffe planes seem to have a sharper edge, but not as sharp as a taped edge would yield. 
Any thoughts?
Rick

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2016, 12:51:40 PM »
It's finally warming up enough to think about painting the Bf110 and I have a question about the "softness" of the paint edges.  Most of the camo planes I've seen in PA used an airbrush without any masking.  This leaves a very soft edge.  Is this too soft?  Photos of Luftwaffe planes seem to have a sharper edge, but not as sharp as a taped edge would yield. 
Any thoughts?
Rick

Rick,

I believe I mentioned the clay snake rolling thing. Or did I not? That's a great way to get a soft edge. Plastic guys do this all the time.

I know you don't have a double action airbrush, so the clay thing could be a consideration.

I believe I also mentioned sanding the edge with 1000 or 600. This could give you what you are looking for also. Just go easy and take your time.

Charles
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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2016, 01:37:52 PM »
Charles,
What is the clay snake rolling thing?
Rick

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2016, 04:19:09 PM »
Charles,
What is the clay snake rolling thing?
Rick

Rick,

You get some soft clay and roll it into a long snake. 3/8" in diaimeter. Take the thing and place it onto the camo line drawn on your wing. Mask it off, the side you don't want paint on.

Then remove paper, mask and the clay snake. You'll have your soft line actly where you want it.

The clay is soft, you can make "S" or whatever.

Google plastic models airbrush tricks. It might be there?

Charles
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2016, 07:06:27 AM »
Thanks, Charles

Rick

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2016, 09:13:41 AM »
Thanks, Charles

Rick

Will there be photos?

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2016, 02:05:21 PM »
like it...nothing like twins, when I get all four motors going on the B-29 it gets my juices flowing!

Fred

L.O.L.!!  LL~ Bet this one would cause some "juices" to flow like a river!!  It really sounds so sweet after transitioning from idle to full throttle!!   ;D ;D  This was baby "Doc's" first display outing and it didn't win a thing!!   :-[  ;D

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2016, 06:37:01 PM »
Two photos of my C/L Henschel 129.
Chuck

 WOW, that thing is AWESOME Chuck!  :o
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2016, 09:52:42 AM »
Rick,

That camo edge, soft or not, is a matter of choice, unless you are copying a scheme.

This camo edge you see on my Ringmaster Warbird. After pulling the tape, I could have sanded the paint edge with 1000 or 600 and made it soft.

I didn't want a soft edge.

If I ever do want a soft edge, I'll use a double action airbrush or that clay snake.

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2016, 06:28:30 PM »
Hi Rick,
The German schemes were evolutionary in nature. The splinter schemes were fairly tight, unmasked spray jobs early on. As the war went on field paint jobs could be very neat or very loose and soft.
I could see a day fighter mid-war Me-110 being very neat and tight. That could be done with an airbrush on a big stunt model pretty easily. From a standing posture at 5 feet it would look masked, up close it would look pleasingly soft. I have pencilled in the pattern and done the edges of the dark color after painting the lighter color first, painting the edge first to your desire by experimenting with your airbrush pattern on paper, and then filling the color in between your edge lines.
I read a little on the German fighters with the knowledge of the British airplanes being painted with a large rubber mat as a template resulting in very sharp edges. The German fighters weren't painted this way.
In a field scheme, much like Ty was intimating in his posts, I suppose a brush job neatly done could produce a very sharp edge but would be very specific in nature and to a particular airplane.

I always loved the 110, the one with the yellow trim and the big wasps on the nose were always my favorites. Any of these schemes would go well soft or hard on a Stunt model. I look forward to your model being finished and seeing pictures!
Chris...

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2016, 10:07:42 PM »
My bf109 stunter was all free handed with a quality Iwata detail gun, no masking
You just draw the line, then fil it in.. keeping in mind to always direct the airflow/paint away from the light section slightly towards the darker area. Lower air pressure, over reduce the color slightly, tighten the fan control down and keep the tip relativly close to the surface compared to trying to spray areas.
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2016, 10:28:39 PM »
F|WIW here is the link to my 109 stunter in splinter camo scheme free handed as I spoke about.
take a look,,
http://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/bf-109-semi-scale-now-electric-(-and-painted)/

another thread on it you may find interesting, ,note details about exhaust stacks ( I am kinda proud of that idea)
http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/bf-109-in-prime/

 not sure its of any value but there ya go
Heck I will throw a couple picgtures here for inspiration frustration?? n~
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2016, 12:26:41 AM »
Pretty model, Mark.
Chris...

Rick_Huff

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2016, 09:39:41 AM »
Chris, Mark, Charles,
Thanks for all the helpful advice.  I will practice with my airbrush today and hope to paint this weekend (temps are supposed to be in the mid 50's).  Mark, why did you paint the white first?  I was planning on doing the crosses after the camo, though I guess the white will have a harder time covering the camo than it would over the primer. 
Rick

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2016, 10:21:17 AM »
Try this experiment some day, the results are obvious when the color is dry

Paint a sample part 1/2 with grey primer the other 1/2 with white primer, then spray the entire part a light color and you will notice the resulting color is different depending upon the color of the primer. You can use yellow, aluminum or any light color.

When I painted my B-29 with the aluminum paint I had to use white to so that it looked right

Fred
Fred Cronenwett
AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Luftwaffe Camo
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2016, 10:55:02 AM »
Chris, Mark, Charles,
Thanks for all the helpful advice.  I will practice with my airbrush today and hope to paint this weekend (temps are supposed to be in the mid 50's).  Mark, why did you paint the white first?  I was planning on doing the crosses after the camo, though I guess the white will have a harder time covering the camo than it would over the primer. 
Rick
It was how I brainstormed the sequence,, The masks for the insignia ( crosses and fuse markings) were cut but not weeded,, applied over the white base, then everything else was painted.. I then pulled the section of the insignia mask off that I wanted black, masked the ends of the openings between the eventual black area, and the camo area, sprayed the black, pulled the mask from the white portion of the insignia,, and poof, done,,

covering the camo with white is HEAVY,  leaves a big hump/edge and jus tmakes life more difficult in general. I thought my solution was pretty elegant in the long run,, ( I spend more time planning the paint phase than I do painting, in fact many of my paint schemes are driven more by how to sequence than by ultimately what I would like to do)

also, as is mentioned by Fred, paint is translucent to some extent, some colors worse than others, but definetly, the color of the substrate will impact the finished color.
In fact now days in the automotive world of collision repair, you have tintable sealers and a formula to create the proper shade of grey to apply prior to applying the color in order to get the color to match...
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137


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