What is the bestest-flying, goodest-looking profile stunt ship for LA-46?

[Scott Richlen]

So, what would you guys recommend as the best flying and really good looking profile stunt ship?  This would be for a club build so it can be scratch-built or maybe we'll make our own kit, so I'm not looking for a commercial kit or an ARF.  We'd power it with an LA-46 or electric equivalent.

Also, if you can, please post a picture of your favorite candidate.

Thanks!

[Lyle Spiegel]

The 40 size Cardinal is a great choice. Very good performance without complex construction. Check Brodak web site , no longer available as ARF/ARC but I think they have the kit. Should have photo.

[Scott Richlen]

Thanks guys, but I'm not looking for a commercial kit or an ARF.

BTW, most of our guys that have had the Cardinal say it is just "okay".  Like the Twister there are a bunch of things that can make it a better-flying plane.

But again, thanks for the interest and the quick response.  It'll help generate discussion.

[Robert Zambelli]

I did the development work on the P-40 and Cardinal ARCs and ARFs when they were being produced by Sun Models in China.
Around 50 flights on each of the four, by me and a number of others.
In my opinion (and other pilots), the P-40 is definitely the better of the two.

Bob Z.

[David Ebers]

Sounds like a great club project. How many planes do y'all plan to build?

My three choices would be Fancher Twister,  Bob Hunt's Prowler or RD-1 as a starting point. (Sorry, no pictures. Plenty available in the search).

You can draw out the "mannequin of numbers" (words out of Bob Hunt's mouth)-nose moment, engine thrust line, wing location and stab location and make the profile look like you want it to look. Add wing tips, change elevator tips and rudder shape.

Start out with a Twister wing kit or a lost foam wing jig (that Bob Hunt guy again) for the Prowler or RD-1.

[Dennis Nunes]

Hi Scott,

Here is a picture of my favorite profile candidate that is powered by an LA 46 called Circulas 46. This was published in the final edition (Issue 1 - 2019) of Stunt News entitled "Building a Circulas 46".  For further information please see the link at:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/classifieds-92/plans-for-circulas-46/msg573206/#msg573206


Circulas 46 uses some simple and basic construction techniques that make it an easy to build model, but is more than just a basic profile. I'm also developing an electric equal at this time called the Circulas 46 IIe.

Enjoy,
Dennis

[M Spencer]

The ORIENTAL has a good wing , would require at least on wing rib template .

Ive had a 71 ounce twin 20/25 powered Me 262 that on 70 ft of .018 Laystrate flys an accuate pattern , Even if the guy filming it tells me after , he only knows how to do STILLS on his new camera . 
a 38 ounce one around 74 ( 1974 ! ) 2 OS 20s , 41 ounce with muffler . YOU WILL FIT THE MUFFLERS = parental advice .
previously in a 35 ounce Whirlwind , no mufflers .  1 in. less chord behind the spar ( 7 in O A Chord ) a maggot bifurcated with a combat wing,
the subsequent turn of the century aforesaid 262 , a& 60 Oz Whirlwind ( Fox 25s 7 19s )  & De H Mosquito ( Veco 19s )
this 262s run ST 20/23s , G 15's , OS 20/25s , FP 25 clones , & MVVS D7 diesels .
plus a 60 Oz 54 in long Meteor NF 11 in IDF markings & a DB Il.3 I think , artound 60 ounce .

ALL FLY WELL .

NOT that im suggesting you should emulate that , tho youre welcome to . BUT THAT the origiator of the concept , H C QUECK of Yak 9 fame ,

did a Zero , Kitty Hawk , Mustang , & F W 190  , on a smaller 9 36 inch ) wing ,  followed by some twits Mosquito & Me 110 .
as I had the magazines for these & the Oriental , and some tight ass would lent his De H Mosq. plan , the obvious solution
as both wings were 48 X 8 , plus tips , was to use the renowned & superior ORIENTAL WING , moments & areas ,
reshaping the edges in appropriate style . ( The Fuse. side views & fin are actually scale renings sacaled to suit .

THEREFORE the the Staggering Outlay of ONE WING RIB TEMPLATE you might have Whole Squadrons , of Warbirds . Single Engined .
or F1 Goodyear racers , or freestyle ( As a Design  STYLING COMPETITION ) as however it may whet your fancy .

The ORIENTAL write up suggests the Wing will cope with 60 ouce all up weight , no trouble . With two props it does with 70 ounce on 70s .

suggesting you could use a bit off glue & timber where necesary . Of cost cut with a parralel FOAM WING if you get 48 inch foam blocks .
A miserable sod would use cardboard for wing skins , but the horrible cheap plastic book cover heat adhere / shrink stuff they use on F2D combat wings , with no complaints , if you leave me out 

Would be more than adequate . And some would suggest two pot polyuretane would be supperior to Dope & Tissue  , for Fuse / Flaps & tail feathers .
Pity you cant ? get Colemans Mustard Tins , for tanks , for 3d.  still . 



Standard Pommy issue combat tank. bottom left corner . A Oriental'd fly with anything from a FP20 to 40 , dependingontheWEIGHT .



Thats what youd do to it , the little brats could do any W W II fighter they choose , or racer , or aerobatic champ thing, if it came to it .
though freestyle & bats in the belfry might be more illuminateing as to theier characters to the suppervisors .

The standardiseation would mean replacement componentry could be redilly to hand .

[Mike Griffin]

Hi Scott,

A couple of years ago I put out a kit of Ted Fancher's Imitation.  I am no longer producing kits but there are plans out there for this model.  It looks beautiful in the air and is not a complicated build.  I dont have plans for it anymore as I got rid of all my plans but there should be plans out there in cyber space.  I will see if I can find a couple of pictures I can post.

Mike

[M Spencer]

Skip the LAST LINE , and a few others , unless your all still wearing shorts .

One last thought , straightforward & strength , could save a few tears . And we cant stand to see grown men cry - seen the R C Scale stall over the fence with the new engine on the maiden flight , trick .

Sure , a imitation would , with a marvelous pilot , or even a good one , be marvelous ,

but if you need a good sturdy knockabout , a standardised elementary job would be quicker .The Square Wing ' talks ' to you even in mild conditions . the taper plkanform slides through easier ,
but with less feedback as to immediate location , so as a work your way through a respectable pattern , as a learning tool , the rudimentary appoach may be complimentary to easier progress .

  like you use Morris Minors for learner Drivers , not Ferrari's . ( plenty of pillocks planting Ferrarri's etc on U tube . Dunno their insurrace premiums . Youd think 100 % of replacement value per 6 months ! 

[M Spencer]

Skip the LAST LINE , and a few others , unless your all still wearing shorts .

One last thought , straightforward & strength , could save a few tears . And we cant stand to see grown men cry - seen the R C Scale stall over the fence with the new engine on the maiden flight , trick .

Sure , a imitation would , with a marvelous pilot , or even a good one , be marvelous ,

but if you need a good sturdy knockabout , a standardised elementary job would be quicker .The Square Wing ' talks ' to you even in mild conditions . the taper plkanform slides through easier ,
but with less feedback as to immediate location , so as a work your way through a respectable pattern , as a learning tool , the rudimentary appoach may be complimentary to easier progress .

  like you use Morris Minors for learner Drivers , not Ferrari's . ( plenty of pillocks planting Ferrarri's etc on U tube . Dunno their insurrace premiums . Youd think 100 % of replacement value per 6 months ! 

Apparently the profiles classic leagal too , so you could have some rivallry in candy apple & pearl custom finishing, etc . And use em for barnstorming . ( even put two wings on & have Biplanes !  )



 

[Mike Griffin]

Scott,

Here is a picture of the Imitation I built

Mike

[James Lee]

I have to go with the Imitation,  And I am Very biased, cause I gotta brag....   54 oz, Tom Lay ST 51, Dope over polyspan, Mike Griffin wing kit and eighteenth at the 2020 Nats in Open PA...
Good year for the Lee Boys...    Grandson AJ,  First in Sr Beginner, Todd fourth,  (    ) and the old guy in the Top Twenty with a profile......
thanks
Jim

[Crist Rigotti]

Scott,
The Circulas 46 looks like a winner!  I'm betting it has been influenced by the Imitation seeing Dennis is from that area.

[Crist Rigotti]

Jim,
Yup a good year for the Lee family!   Congrats to all.

[Jim Hoffman]

Straight, good power and reasonable weight are more important than design. 

My choice would be the profile Pathfinder for that LA 46 power

[Phil Spillman]

Holy Smoke, Those Lee Guys remind me of the Ever Ready Bunnies! Nice going Guys!

Phil spillman

[RogerGreene]

Well I am kinda partial to this one. It is a real good flyer. Not a kit but AMA has the plans number 471.

http://library.modelaviation.com/system/files/styles/zoom1800/private/ma/ma198504/ma198504_072.jpg?itok=s_gKAM08

Roger

[Brett Buck]

If you are talking 46LA *that has not been molested*, my first choice would be the Imitation, which is the standard we have been attempting to replicate for the last 40 years now (with varying degrees of success). Compare it to the Thundergazer, it's very close to the same airplane, and an LA46 is a HUGE improvement in performance over the ST46 the Imitation used most of the time. It also works extremely well with the 40VF, do that, and it's as good as any other airplane at any level.

     If the engine had been "improved" in any way, then some of these little 35-sized airplanes might be appropriate, since most of the "improvements" usually destroy anything good about it, particularly the power and ability to pull normal-sized airplanes.

    Brett

[Dave_Trible]

I’m sort of fond of the Shameless.

Dave

[Robertc]

I've had good luck with the MoBest by Larry Cunningham.  Pampa plan.  Works great with an LA 46.

[Kim Doherty]

So, what would you guys recommend as the best flying and really good looking profile stunt ship?  This would be for a club build so it can be scratch-built or maybe we'll make our own kit, so I'm not looking for a commercial kit or an ARF.  We'd power it with an LA-46 or electric equivalent.

Also, if you can, please post a picture of your favorite candidate.

Thanks!

I think a profile Saturn makes a pretty good profile. This is my Saturn TFP - (take-apart, foam wing, profile) Straight from the plan.

Kim

 

[Dwayne Donnelly]

I always liked the Dick Sarpolus Challenger

[Tim Wescott]

If the engine had been "improved" in any way, then some of these little 35-sized airplanes might be appropriate, since most of the "improvements" usually destroy anything good about it, particularly the power and ability to pull normal-sized airplanes.

Based purely on reputation and looking at plans, I agree with the Imitation suggestion, assuming no "improvements" to the engine internals.  It should be easy to rework it for electric, for that matter.

If anyone has such an internally "improved" engine and wants to put it right, I have a 46LA with the mounting lugs "improved" to fit a pre-existing set of holes (or maybe buggered to fit...).  The internals, however, are fine, and could be swapped into an unmolested case to get an engine that's overall stock.

[Ken Culbertson]

I built a profile of my Sandpiper design that flew extremely well with a.. ...LA46!
If you need a pedigree then go with the Imitation.  If it were my club project I would find a commercially available wing, take the dimensions from whatever it came from then have a club member design something around it.

Ken

[Steve Helmick]

There's quite a few "Star Finders" here in the PNW. It's a Norm Whittle restyle of the Pathfinder. Don't know where to get plans, but I know you could get laser cut ribs from Brodak.  Steve

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

What about Scott Richlen's "Fixed Fazer?"

[Matt Colan]

Don Hutchinson’s profile warbirds! There are some great flying profiles down here that are Don’s design. Joe Gilbert terrorized profile for years with the AT-6. I have a dauntless semi framed up that will get the LA 46 treatment. There is also the Ringmaster 576. I got to fly that one a lot with the LA 46 in front and that is one of the most fun planes I’ve ever flown!

[Joe Gilbert]

Matt called it right Don has 20 plus’s to chose from he designed them around the LA 46. Pick what you like and scratch build them. P 51 H model is my next Hutchinson build.

Joe Gilbert

[Dennis Leonhardi]

I always liked the Dick Sarpolus Challenger

Several really good choices here!  Don's designs are great for warbird fans.  One advantage of Sarpolus' Challenger is that you can use the SIG Super Chipmunk wing kit, though the one I received is really heavy!

[Tim Wescott]

Don Hutchinson’s profile warbirds! There are some great flying profiles down here that are Don’s design. Joe Gilbert terrorized profile for years with the AT-6. I have a dauntless semi framed up that will get the LA 46 treatment. There is also the Ringmaster 576. I got to fly that one a lot with the LA 46 in front and that is one of the most fun planes I’ve ever flown!

If you were doing a club build you could parcel out a different design to each person; that'd be fun.

[john e. holliday]

I am sitting here trying to keep from laughing at posts like this.  I would expect if there is 40+ kits/plans out there you would get that many answers.   My self my favorite is not a 46 size plane and it is needs refinishing.  It is the Primary Force with my good Fox 35 Stunt.

[Brent Williams]

Since your requirements include best flying, I would be looking at either the Imitation or the Pathfinder. 

[Scott Richlen]

Seems like a lot of people like the Imitation.  It is a very good flying and looking airplane.  But does it actually qualify as a profile?  I know that there has been a lot of back and forth on this since the nose is wider than 3/4" and some people claim that a profile has to have the engine mounted sideways.  What's the verdict?

(Caveat: not sure if this matters much if there are no "Profile" category contests.  The major one being the now defunct Brodaks Fly-In.   )

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Scott,

There is the Eastern Shore contest.  Still, the Imitation looks to be a strong candidate.

Peter

[Tim Wescott]

Seems like a lot of people like the Imitation.  It is a very good flying and looking airplane.  But does it actually qualify as a profile?  I know that there has been a lot of back and forth on this since the nose is wider than 3/4" and some people claim that a profile has to have the engine mounted sideways.  What's the verdict?

The verdict is that there are different definitions of a profile; some would include the Imitation, some would not.  In the Pacific Northwest the profile stunt event rules allow any fuselage width ahead of the flap hinge line, strictly 3/4" behind the flap hinge line, and the engine has to be exposed lug to plug ("from the crank centerline to the glow plug").  Other regions are more strict -- the Sig event, for instance, has rules formulated to admit planes that conform to the dimensions of Sig profile kits, but not wider fuselages, etc.

So far we haven't made strict rules for electric motor mounting, and folks with 'lectrics have been good about showing up with easily-mounted, accessible motors.  If someone comes up with a fiendishly difficult way to mount an electric motor in a profile that gives some competitive advantage (or even if they start bragging about it and it gets tiresome), then rules may be composed to address that issue.

[Joe Ed Pederson]

Seems like a lot of people like the Imitation.  It is a very good flying and looking airplane.  But does it actually qualify as a profile?  I know that there has been a lot of back and forth on this since the nose is wider than 3/4" and some people claim that a profile has to have the engine mounted sideways.  What's the verdict?

(Caveat: not sure if this matters much if there are no "Profile" category contests.  The major one being the now defunct Brodaks Fly-In.   )

Scott,

Mark Hughes had a very good looking, good flying Imitation at the St. Louis CL Fun Fly this weekend.  Wish I had taken a picture.  He changed the front of the fuselage to be like every other profile since he knew he would use, an LA .46 (and perhaps, I didn't ask him, to avoid the issue of whether it was a profile or not).   Ted used the round nose so he could use RC engine mounts so he could test a bunch of motors on it. 

I would imagine that Mark is not the only one to change the nose to the regular profile configuration.  An Imitation with an LA .46 and a regular profile
in front of the wing is on my list of future builds.

Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO

[john e. holliday]

With the preceding definitions, I would do another Mustunt I with out the cowl and the thicker of the two air foils.

[Alan Buck]

A Limitation by Dale & Derek Barry with a Gieseke nobler wing or a vector wing in it

[Dan McEntee]

.

So far we haven't made strict rules for electric motor mounting, and folks with 'lectrics have been good about showing up with easily-mounted, accessible motors.  If someone comes up with a fiendishly difficult way to mount an electric motor in a profile that gives some competitive advantage (or even if they start bragging about it and it gets tiresome), then rules may be composed to address that issue.
[/quote]

    This could easily turn into another "profile" argument! Electric motors do have a distinct advantage in that they don't have a top or bottom or a sideways.  The SIG event was intended as an entry level event and had a .40 size limit, that was the origination of the term "P.40 Stunt" as it is mentioned on the box art of the Primary Force kit box. Ever since control line models took off as a viable form of model aviation, it was a quick and cheap way to produce a kit to have a slab fuselage and the engine mounted in side winder fashion. It's all about production costs and parts count. I say that history dictates that a profile model has a slab fuselage and the engine mounted on it's side for simplicity, and that in itself dictates what a profile is. Fuselage thickness doesn't mean crap, and whoever came up with the idea that the fuselage behind the trailing edge had something to do with it. Just the shear numbers of kits and plans that have been produced  with slab fuselages and engines mounted on their side and called "profile model" on the box art or article title dictates what a  profile is. All it takes is one trophy hunter that wants to get his duper belchfire cheater model declared legal and that is where the discrepancy starts.
   In our club, our rules follow the SIG P.40 rules, and we have added a 10 point penalty for electric models, because they have a distinct advantage . The pilot can negate that penalty by having a model with no flaps for the 10 point no flap bonus. Lots of clubs have variation of the rules, and keep in mind that there in no official AMA profile event and as far as I know, SIG more or less invented it with their P.40 event. If anyone was providing for a profile model stunt event before that, I am not aware of it. Mark Huges' Imitation is a true profile with a slab fuselage and sidewinder mounted engine,  but depending on local rules, he might not be able to fly it any where he wants and he is aware of that. But in my opinion, the Imitation as it was presented and designed is not a true, classic profile model. The fuselage was designed that way to make a quick, easy and cheap way to build a fuselage to hold everything else.
  In the long run, no particular airplane is going to make you a better stunt pilot, just as putting you into the seat of a Ferrari makes you a Formula One driver
    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

. Just the shear numbers of kits and plans that have been produced  with slab fuselages and engines mounted on their side and called "profile model" on the box art or article title dictates what a  profile is. All it takes is one trophy hunter that wants to get his duper belchfire cheater model declared legal and that is where the discrepancy starts.

     The Imitation and Mustunt I (plus a bunch of others) both have convemtional engine mounts, and appear to have precedent over the SIG definition.
 
      And I don't see why it is necessary to call a difference of opinion "cheaters" or "trophy grabbers" . If someone is a "cheater", show me the paragraph and document that prevents it.

But in my opinion, the Imitation as it was presented and designed is not a true, classic profile model.

      In my opinion, it is. The PNW definition (used for years at a large regional contest and numerous local contests), also says it is. So what does that prove and who is "cheating"? What about the Mustunt I, which long predates the SIG "Profile" event?
   
 

In the long run, no particular airplane is going to make you a better stunt pilot, just as putting you into the seat of a Ferrari makes you a Formula One driver

   You know how much easier it is to get below, say, 8 minutes at the Nurburgring in a Ferrari Formula 1 car VS a diesel Chevette? You know how many bad habits you will get into driving the Chevette that you will have to unlearn later when you get a Ferrari? Go check out "supercar fail" on Youtube if you want to see.

   Brett

[Sean McEntee]

I have to go with the Imitation,  And I am Very biased, cause I gotta brag....   54 oz, Tom Lay ST 51, Dope over polyspan, Mike Griffin wing kit and eighteenth at the 2020 Nats in Open PA...
Good year for the Lee Boys...    Grandson AJ,  First in Sr Beginner, Todd fourth,  (    ) and the old guy in the Top Twenty with a profile......
thanks
Jim

Is JetBlue doing so bad that Todd can’t buy a shirt? 

[Dennis Leonhardi]

I have to go with the Imitation,  And I am Very biased, cause I gotta brag....   54 oz, Tom Lay ST 51, Dope over polyspan, Mike Griffin wing kit and eighteenth at the 2020 Nats in Open PA...
Good year for the Lee Boys...    Grandson AJ,  First in Sr Beginner, Todd fourth,  (    ) and the old guy in the Top Twenty with a profile......
thanks
Jim

Congrats to All Jim, you done good!

[Brad Smith]

The Pathfinder tricycle year for Easy er take off and landing Flys about the best of any profile out there

[Scott Richlen]

Mark Hughes had a very good looking, good flying Imitation at the St. Louis CL Fun Fly this weekend.  Wish I had taken a picture.

Can someone get a picture of his ship and post it here?  Everyone loves seeing a good-looking stunt ship!  Thanks!

[James Holford]

Call me silly but I love the lines of a Magician....



Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Steve Fitton]

I vote along with Matt and Joe for one of the Don Hutchinson profile warbirds.  They were designed with the LA-46 in mind and all I've seen have been exceptional flying planes.

[Randy Powell]

I like this one.

[Scott Richlen]

I vote along with Matt and Joe for one of the Don Hutchinson profile warbirds.  They were designed with the LA-46 in mind and all I've seen have been exceptional flying planes.

Steve: do you know if he uses the same rib or wing for most of his planes?  For a club build we need to pick one plane to build or pick a line of planes that all have the same wing or lots of commonality such that even though you can build "different" airplanes, you have a lot of commonality and it is like you are all building the same plane.

[Ken Culbertson]

What is the endgame?  A bunch of club planes to "check out".  A "Club Plane" contest where each member builds the same plane?  A contest where everybody flies the same plane (I would make 3)?  I would think how you are going to use them might influence the design you pick.  I like the Warbirds if it is an everybody builds one exercise and I like the Imitation idea if it is an everybody flies it program.  No matter. if there will be enough of them I am sure you can find one of our kit mfg. to do you a short kit or even a full kit.

ken

[Scott Richlen]

What is the endgame?

Ken, what I am working on is a "Club Build".  It isn't a contest (although it could be) but is an effort to encourage our club members to be ready to go once this Covid stuff is over.  I am concerned that most people are hunkered down to the extent that they are flying a lot less and they are building a lot less.  Granted, Covid and the lock-down forces some of that, but after months of this I am sure that some people are having a harder time coping and are reducing their activities more than they need to.

I've led our club (NVCL) on a few of these in the past.  One time a bunch of us built the P-51B profile that Pat Johnston had designed for Tom Dixon.  Another time we built Windy's Evo 40 Cardinal.  Not everyone participates but I try to pick a plane that has the widest appeal (and also pulls the guys up a rung building-wise and flying-wise.)  It takes about 6 months of planning and preparation before kick-off, so that is why I am starting now.  I'd call this the "kicking ideas around" stage of the process.  Hopefully in 6 months Covid is over and I'll be able to host our kick-off building session in my shop.