Engines with pipes

[Dan McEntee]

    I guess everyone has to deal with soccer players. They tie up Buder Park with large tournaments from time to time. Frequently we have to deal with attempts to turn the model airplane sights into ball diamonds and soccer parks because there will be some parent that likes that location because it is convenient for him/her to see/coach their kid's soccer team. We have letter writing campaigns that remind everyone that there are LOTS of other parks to play soccer on, and only ONE model airplane field. There was a letter to the editor of the local newspaper by a guy that went to Buder, a known model airplane sight, to walk his dog and complained about the noise. Never mind that there are 5 other parks within 5 minutes driving time that are actually better parks for walking and hiking, but maybe they were an inconvenience to him. In talking about the situation with a Park Ranger once, I pointed out a group of kids practicing soccer, and told him I would guarantee that about half of those kids didn't want to be there, some would be interested in what I was doing and you could tell by the rubber necking going on, and they were only participating because their parents made them do it. I told him I had been flying models at Buder Park since 1975, and I would challenge him to go find ANY soccer player that was a second or third generation user of the park. Once the kids play a year or three, they move on to something else. Back in my R/C sailplane days, I was flying at another local park and getting some good lift and long flights. The kids baseball team that was playing/practicing at the next ball diamond was having a hard time concentrating on what they were doing, so the coach came over to me and told me to "bring that thing down so it doesn't distract the kids!"  And I wasn't even making any noise!!! So I politely explained to him that I was a resident of the city, had a right and permission to fly there, and that I couldn't help it if what I was doing was more fun that what he was doing! It's an ongoing battle. Always some parent that thinks they have a little political pull or influence and push you around, the after a few years they are gone and another one takes their place. It's one of those things that always made Pogo say, "Hoooo Boy!"
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[RandySmith]

At the NATs in Pasco WA. one year we were flying on a City designated site, with full permission, several 100 yards away kids were practicing Little League Baseball.
Several of the parents called the police stating they didn't want us to fly there because we were distracting them.
 The police came flying out there, driving the squad cars across the grass and into the circle to stop us from flying , and remove us from the site, They were told we had permission and this was a site that we had been flying on all week, They checked with the city then just went away.

I have seen this many many times, and most every case the model plane pilot is considered to be the one  in the wrong right off the bat.

Randy

[Randy Cuberly]

At the NATs in Pasco WA. one year we were flying on a City designated site, with full permission, several 100 yards away kids were practicing Little League Baseball.
Several of the parents called the police stating they didn't want us to fly there because we were distracting them.
 The police came flying out there, driving the squad cars across the grass and into the circle to stop us from flying , and remove us from the site, They were told we had permission and this was a site that we had been flying on all week, They checked with the city then just went away.

I have seen this many many times, and most every case the model plane pilot is considered to be the one  in the wrong right off the bat.

Randy

Very interesting Randy.
  A number of years ago we had an incident at our flying field here in Tucson.  Anyone who has been to VSC is familiar with our flying facility and the layout of the field...we sometimes share the grass area with some other events and that usually is no problem as we simply use only the hardtop circles and the other users use the grass area.  However on one occasion when Middle Schoolers were holding a cross country track meet (this is an annual event) on a Sunday when a fairly large number of folks were flying on the hardtop circles, a very irate parent (Mother of one of the participants) came storming and shouting towards the circle where a stunt pattern was being flowing shouting "Stop that thing, stop that thing" and other epithets that I wont repeat here.  Yours truly happened to be at the top of the pit area adjacent to the circle and the grass area performing pull tests when I realized she was obviously going to run into the circle.  I quickly placed myself between the circle and her in a blocking effort with my arms extended to stop her at which time she started swinging at me and repeating her verbal tirade.  Thanks to being a little younger then and having a firm background in martial arts, I managed to avert her charge and swings without actually touching her but she did fall to the ground (tripped over her own feet) at which time she bounded back up with an obvious intent to continue her assault on me and the evil airplane flying behind me.  Fortunately for her and perhaps me and the airplane her spouse (a very big burly guy) grabbed her from behind, picked her up, still screaming and carried her back across the grass area from which she had come, still kicking flailing and screaming about the airplane and noise.
  A few minutes later the running coach for the young people came over and apologized for the incident.  He said that she had complained to him that the noise from the airplanes was preventing her son from hearing the starting commands for the races and that the airplanes had no right to be in a public park.  He said he had told her that the noise wasn't loud enough to interfere with the starting commands and that the flying club had made the facility available to the runners on a sharing basis...guess that wasn't good enough for her, so she decided to take her own action.  I explained that my concern was for her being struck by the airplane and he simply shook his head and said "some people are just nuts!
  I have to agree.
  People can be really nuts about something they feel is encroaching on their little world regardless of the circumstances.

Randy Cuberly

[Igor Burger]

Igor, a 1" tank will still fit under that muffler and when the engine is mounted on plates there will be even more room.

Or you could just side mount it ............. but I highly suspect that your sense of humor is rising to the fore here!

(Charles, we covered this subject before mate.)

May be I see it wrong, but seems to me that there is only few milimeters free space. And if you put motor on plates, it will not help, tank must be in level of NVA and it is only few mm from muffler.

However if you mean side mounted engine, then it can be, but in that case you have NVA out of the circle (relative to the tank), so I think motor will tend to go rich after launching. It is also not the best, because then it goes again lean overhead and such model likes to accelerate down in vertical descending segments of figures. That is why we used many years outboard mounted MVVS GRRT type with rear intake. I can say that it was my best running muffled engine ever :- ))) 

[Avaiojet]

Igor,

Great looking model, smooth lines! I like it! Yours?

Got a better photo? 

I understand what you are saying. The inverted setup could possibly work if an adapter was available to lower the pipe a tad. Don't need much, .125" to .1875". Correct?

Cleaner look with the engine inverted.

Looks like you have a great deal of experience with the MVVS RE engines.

Did you have issues with the NVA as you stated? 

However if you mean side mounted engine, then it can be, but in that case you have NVA out of the circle (relative to the tank), so I think motor will tend to go rich after launching.

What exactly is "MVVS GRRT type with rear intake?"

Thanks for the info.

BTW. There was a modeler with an MVVS .49 like mine that had a constant bench run at 7700 RPM on  U-Tube.

Charles

[Igor Burger]

Yes, manifold with offset 1" or more will solve it.

That model is called "Zarlok" what means Shark in english. You can see motor compartment and also its intake in line of crankshaft. So it means that tank fits very well. It is model of Ivan Cani, ex-czechoslovak representant. It is back from 1980 or so. It was I beamer. He was first who used MVVS GRRT and he was happy because it worked symetrically (whole engine construction is symetrical) and it always did very clean 4-2-4 run (unlike schnuerle ported HP used those days). So that was reason that almost everyone of us did similar model :-)). The only disadvantage was the weight, orriginally it was only 6,5 ccm (.40) and later MVVS drilled larger holes to 8ccm (.49) and it was stronger and lighter :- ))

MVVS 6.5 GRRT was orriginally designed for pylon racing, but since MVVS was here so they did special stunt ABC sleeve with low timing and it was able to make lot pf torque and goo stunt run. Looks like the same storry like Nelson and Jett stunt engines :-))

You can see pictures here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1755471

The "magic" muffler designed for pylon racing was not usefull for stunt, but it needed to drill hole inside the muffler to open a vent in that inside tube and safely "distuned" muffler to normal exhaust muffler. Also larger exhaust tube did run better.

[Avaiojet]

Igor,

Thanks for that info.

These MVVS .40 and .49 engines do seem a tad heavy and larger than "SPORT" engines like the OS's.

I'm guessing they are top of the line quality competitive engines?

I had two .40 but sold one. I should have kept it. All I have is one .40 and one .49.

None of mine are rear intake engines.

I'm guessing you bench run them and experiment with props and pipes?

Thanks again!

Charles

[Igor Burger]

Yes heavier, but in era after MVVS 5,6A we had on that so we could not choose :-))

And yes my first piped model was such configuration with pipe over the wing, like first piped F3A models, but later I soon went to classic inverted engine with pipe inside the fuselage, or 45 degrees mounter OS .46LA :- )) ... and later PA and JETT ... and now ... electric 

[Avaiojet]

ELECTRIC!

Hummm, I have the "Electra" on the drawing board.

Something I may consider when I pick up a few extra bucks. My neighbors would like that. 

Charles

[Avaiojet]

Yes heavier, but in era after MVVS 5,6A we had on that so we could not choose :-))

And yes my first piped model was such configuration with pipe over the wing, like first piped F3A models, but later I soon went to classic inverted engine with pipe inside the fuselage, or 45 degrees mounter OS .46LA :- )) ... and later PA and JETT ... and now ... electric 

Igor,

Yes, your accomplishments with electrics. Kudos! 

Do you have a website, someplace one could go to read about your efforts and accomplishments?

Thank you for the information.

Charles

[Chris Wilson]

May be I see it wrong, but seems to me that there is only few milimeters free space. And if you put motor on plates, it will not help, tank must be in level of NVA and it is only few mm from muffler.

However if you mean side mounted engine, then it can be, but in that case you have NVA out of the circle (relative to the tank), so I think motor will tend to go rich after launching. It is also not the best, because then it goes again lean overhead and such model likes to accelerate down in vertical descending segments of figures. That is why we used many years outboard mounted MVVS GRRT type with rear intake. I can say that it was my best running muffled engine ever :- ))) 

I agree that there are only a few millimeters left between the tank and muffler but that is all that is needed - and a 1" inch tank does fit.
This topic seems to rear its head from time to time and its a non sense, the muffler only looks impossibly low not that it actually is.

Placing the engine on plates in an invert installation will allow the tank to be raised slightly (without carving out the bearers) to get an even run from inverted to upright as not all tank feeds are exactly inline with NVA.

I had an MVVS 51 GRRT for a while, pity I sold it.

Cheers.