Engines with pipes

[Mike Griffin]

What is the advantage/advantages of running a piped engine?

Mike

[Brett Buck]

What is the advantage/advantages of running a piped engine?

   It permits you to use engines of almost arbitrarily large amount of "power" and still be able to have exceptionally fine control of the output.

     Brett

[Howard Rush]

What is the advantage/advantages of running a piped engine?

Over an electric?  Only the sound and smell.

[wwwarbird]

 But, the sound and smell is really cool.

[Howard Rush]

What is the advantage/advantages of running a piped engine?

Over an unpiped engine?  Approximately the following:

For |Vw|<5 mph, A = 10,

For |Vw|>5 mph, A = 2 * |Vw|,

where |Vw| is wind speed, A is incremental stunt score per AMA pattern.

[Mike Haverly]

Howard, you're worth the price of admission!

Pipes are loud
Nitro smells
We got power
And that's cool!

[Bob Hunt]

But, the sound and smell is really cool.

Yeah? Not to my wife... 

Bob Hunt

[Dave_Trible]

GGGRRRUUUUUUUNNTT!!!

Dave

[Paul Taylor]

If this question is about pipes, the simple answer is power.

IC engines make more power with a tube type muffler / pipe then without.

Back in my old dirt bike days the thing to do was unbolt the factory muffler and bolt up an expansion chamber pipe. More power, and sounded cooler.

I do not run pipes on my planes yet but hope to one day.

[BYU]

Yeah? Not to my wife... 

Bob Hunt

Yes but that's only if you're in this for the "money and the women".

[Mike Griffin]

Thank you Brett and Paul for your answers.  I appreciate you answering the question.

Mike

[Osni Renato]

Hi
Besides the power and sound (which I love)
It is much easier to clean 

Osni

[Dan McEntee]

The Tuned Pipe has been around for quite a while now, and the application for stunt is different than for other model airplane uses. I can't explain it like Mr. Williams did, but it is an interesting history of development. The system had it's pioneers and developers, and it's detractors also at the time, and was far from a simple bolt on operation. The pipes themselves have changed quite a lot as time has gone by. I remember some guys being VERY frustrated and equipment being bought and sold left and right as interest came and went. Problems with run-aways and such, and other teething issues the same as any other type of power plant. You guys that were part of development and growth of the system ought to fill in the history of it. You may see some parallels to the development of the electric systems as far as speed regulation. From the way I understand it, with the advancement of today's speed controllers for the electrics, they are designing them to do the same job for the electric motor as the pipe does for the I/C engine. I was teasing Crist Rigotti about at SIG this year, all these years we've been trying to make our engines run like an electric motor, and now they are trying to get the electric motors to run our engines!
Good luck and have fun,
Dan McEntee

[Howard Rush]

Thank you Brett and Paul for your answers.  I appreciate you answering the question.

This is an example of the interesting phenomenon of a sincere, well-presented, incorrect answer being preferred over an accurate, snotty-sounding answer.  It was often like that at work.

[Brett Buck]

This is an example of the interesting phenomenon of a sincere, well-presented, incorrect answer being preferred over an accurate, snotty-sounding answer.  It was often like that at work.

     Incorrect? Interesting. Note that the title of the post is "Engines with Pipes", which most people would interpret as compared to "engines without pipes.  Not "Would someone please go OT to wedge in a lecture their latest pet project".

  How's that for both snotty AND accurate?

     Brett

[Bill Little]

If this question is about pipes, the simple answer is power.

IC engines make more power with a tube type muffler / pipe then without.

Back in my old dirt bike days the thing to do was unbolt the factory muffler and bolt up an expansion chamber pipe. More power, and sounded cooler.

I do not run pipes on my planes yet but hope to one day.

Hi Paul,

Since we (Aaron and I) have been running pipes since 1992, I do believe the question of "power" is no longer the point.  In the beginning, using a pipe to make a high revving .40 put out more power than a .60 size muffled engine was a large part of the goal.

Now, with more powerful .60 and .75 size engines on pipe the emphasis is on power regulation, not more power.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Will Hinton]

I started running pipes about the same time as the Littles', did the VF thing, loved them, went to PA's, love them, and along with all the good comments of what guys like in this thread, I think for me the greatest advantage has been the consistency.  I mean, I set them the way Randy tells me to, prop them for my style, and just run the beasts.  If some little thing seems different, I know I need to clean my fuel supply lines, switch filters, check for a hole somewhere,  or some MINOR thing like that.  They just run steady.
My 4-2-4 engines seem to be so temperamental in getting the right set up where the pipes are plug and play; or have been for me.

[Steve Helmick]

I've only used two piped engines, a PA .51 and an AAC .46VF. Finding the prop that worked for me was, I'd say, a bit more of a challenge than for a good 4-2-4 engine. Relying on Randy Aero's pipe length chart and the pinned articles in the engine forum have always worked pretty well for me, and also reliably, just like Will says.   Steve

[FLOYD CARTER]

Tuned pipes seem a bit complicated to get adjusted just right. 

One advantage, as with my rear-exhaust engines with mufflers, is the exhaust goo does not get all over!

Two flights last week, and there was nothing for me to wipe off!

Floyd

[Howard Rush]

 

    Incorrect? Interesting. Note that the title of the post is "Engines with Pipes", which most people would interpret as compared to "engines without pipes.  Not "Would someone please go OT to wedge in a lecture their latest pet project".

  How's that for both snotty AND accurate?

OK on snottiness, I guess.  Your original answer was technically correct, of course, but relied on three assumptions: 1) that the unstated thing over which which Mike asked what piped engines have an advantage was unpiped engines, b) that the reader understands the private, nonstandard definition of "power" that stunt people use, and iii) that that definition is unique.  

I'll grant you that only an a$$hole such as the undersigned would pick on 1) , but I did also state the advantage of piped engines over unpiped engines without the intermediate power discussion.  

It just occurred to me that you and I both assumed that Mike was asking about the stunt application.  For most tuned pipe applications, Paul's answer was correct and, unlike yours and mine, did not go possibly OT to wedge in lectures on our pet model airplane event.  

If I were a smiley-using man, I'd include a smiley for those who prefer their humor wetter.  Sorry, Mike.  I'm pretty sure I knew what you were asking.  Fortunately, Brett and Frank have given you excellent answers.  

[Trostle]

Engines with Pipes (for CLPA)

I have not run piped stunt ships.  However, I have observed over the years.  There are several positive reasons to use tuned pipes on a stunt ship.  These comments have to do with "properly set up power trains.  One of reasons to use them is to get more power and consistently more useful power from the power train.  These set ups will be able to be consistent from one run to the next.  The guys running good piped systems will consistently be able to perform better in windy conditions than the unpiped system  

This does not mean that an unpiped ship cannot compete with the piped ships.  (I have seen an unpiped ship outfly a whole field of piped ships in the wind.)   It is just that the pipes tend to minimize the effect of the wind in flying a pattern more so than those ships without the pipe.

KT

[Howard Rush]

Not "Would someone please go OT to wedge in a lecture their ...

I presume your intention by using the plural pronoun is to out I and I as a Rastafarian.  That lost its sting now that ganja's legal in Washington, mon.

Edited for more pronoun work and humor consistency.

[Chris Wilson]

What is the advantage/advantages of running a piped engine?

Mike

It allows your mind to settle back comfortably in the knowledge that you have spent the most amount possible and therefore there is nothing more you could possibly do to ensure a win.

[Derek Barry]

I presume your intention by using the plural pronoun is to out I and I as a Rastafarian.  That lost its sting now that ganja's legal in Washington, mon.

Edited for more pronoun work and humor consistency.

I guess all of your pipes have a new function in life now.  That is going to taste terrible....just sayin, mon!

Derek

[Avaiojet]

Tuned pipes seem a bit complicated to get adjusted just right.  

One advantage, as with my rear-exhaust engines with mufflers, is the exhaust goo does not get all over!

Two flights last week, and there was nothing for me to wipe off!

Floyd

Floyd,

Are you running gas?  

I'd like to see a photo of your set up.

I ran tuned pipes in R/C. Mild increased advantage in RPM but runs were more consistant. Once the pipe was set, it was left alone.

I still have a couple, one is interesting on how it's made, I'll dig it up and get a photo. I'm thinking it may have a use with a CL stunt model? It's thin.

My neighbor does boats. He says electric boats have it all over IC.

Charles

[FLOYD CARTER]

Charles.  I was referring to a Stalker 51, a RE glo engine with stock muffler, which I'm running in a plane called "TIBURON"
(a clone of a LEGACY).  I have similar experience with RO-Jett 61 and 76.

F.C.

[dirty dan]

I ran tuned pipes in R/C. Mild increased advantage in RPM but runs were more consistant. Once the pipe was set, it was left alone.

I still have a couple, one is interesting on how it's made, I'll dig it up and get a photo. I'm thinking it may have a use with a CL stunt model? It's thin.


Charles

Our application of pipes in CL Stunt is way, way different than in RC. Or in any other use of pipes I know about, from dirt bikes to chain saws.

Dan

[Avaiojet]

Charles.  I was referring to a Stalker 51, a RE glo engine with stock muffler, which I'm running in a plane called "TIBURON"
(a clone of a LEGACY).  I have similar experience with RO-Jett 61 and 76.F.C.

Floyd,

My interest was seeing the muffler application, how it was set up on the model? I hate the time spent on cleaning the model.

Our application of pipes in CL Stunt is way, way different than in RC. Or in any other use of pipes I know about, from dirt bikes to chain saws.Dan

Dan,

I imagine they must be, not needing the varation of speed and all.

These thin pipes I have, be nice if they could work, I already have them.

I do have this MVVS .49 RE with a OEM pipe I mentioned early on. This could be a set-up for the smaller Lou Wolgasts Pentastar. The Pentastar kit is available in two sizes. It's a great design, I can't stop thinking about the model.

Charles

[Lynn Weedman]

that looks very similar to the OS VF.46 set up Iv'e been using for years.

Lynn Weedman

[Avaiojet]

that looks very similar to the OS VF.46 set up Iv'e been using for years.Lynn Weedman

Lynn,

What model do you have your OS VF .46 in?

Also, not sure you'll have this info but, what does just the engine and pipe weigh?

Charles

[Igor Burger]

Charles, where you want put the tank? I do not see too much space between muffler and NVA 

[FLOYD CARTER]

One problem with rear-exhaust mufflers (and tuned pipes too, I guess) the outlet is in-line with the muffler body.  Unless you build a funny-shaped fuselage, the outlet is inside, or too close to the fuselage.  On all my RE engines with stock mufflers, I make a "stinger" extension from brass tubing at a 45 deg angle.  JB Weld seems to hold it OK.  The outlet of the extension is about 1" below the fuselage.  So that takes care of exhaust goo.

I've tried using a DuBro "rubber ducky" stinger, but have a tough time keeping them attached.

Floyd

[Avaiojet]

Charles, where you want put the tank? I do not see too much space between muffler and NVA 

Igor,

Good point.

Maybe Lynn will post a photo?

Charles

[Chris Wilson]

Charles, where you want put the tank? I do not see too much space between muffler and NVA 

Igor, a 1" tank will still fit under that muffler and when the engine is mounted on plates there will be even more room.

Or you could just side mount it ............. but I highly suspect that your sense of humor is rising to the fore here!

(Charles, we covered this subject before mate.)

[Avaiojet]

Igor, a 1" tank will still fit under that muffler and when the engine is mounted on plates there will be even more room.Or you could just side mount it ............. but I highly suspect that your sense of humor is rising to the fore here! (Charles, we covered this subject before mate.)

Chris,

Yes, I'm trying to remember, as you said, I believe it was a side mounted tank.

I made drawings for that shared information, I should look for them.

Do you think the future for stunt will eventually be electric?

Charles

[john e. holliday]

Stunt will be all electric when no more IC engines are allowed to compete because of the noise.   I have people complain even with a muffler.   

[Chris Wilson]

Chris,
Do you think the future for stunt will eventually be electric?

Charles

Presuming that the future is always advancing the technology at the exclusion of what went before, then yes - but this has not always proven to be the case.

In a utopian world the ultimate will be virtual realities, so how far into the future does one care to look?

[Eric Viglione]

Charles, In the future you will just fly in a dome and shine your plane image on the walls of the dome to scribe out your pattern. All the trick stuff will be in your handle/light saber. We will have long arguments about gyro stabilization in our handle to smooth out the tricks (ever try to hold a flashlight steady at 70ft?)and weather or not you built your own light saber like a true Jedi should. Pull tests will be controversial but still eliminated even though some people will provide charts to prove that the plane image has some mass and insist to multiply that mass x10. PAMPA will vote to hand out sunglasses to spectators instead. Nats Winners will get a date with carrie fisher, losers get 2 dates with carrie fisher.

Eric V.
PS: no, really, I'm serious! 2 dates with fisher! Eeeek!

Presuming that the future is always advancing the technology at the exclusion of what went before, then yes - but this has not always proven to be the case.

In a utopian world the ultimate will be virtual realities so far far into the future does one care to look?

[Chris Wilson]

PS: no, really, I'm serious! 2 dates with fisher! Eeeek!

Beats the heck out of two dates with Bobby Fischer.

[Avaiojet]

Eric,

Quite an imagination. Are you a writer?

Could be virtual (sp?) and the "dome" will be over the competitor's head. 

Charles

[RandySmith]

Stunt will be all electric when no more IC engines are allowed to compete because of the noise.   I have people complain even with a muffler.   

What do these dummasses  say when people mow their lawn???

Trim the hedges?

Crank up the leaf blower???

Yell at football games?

Sing loudly at concerts???

etc.........   all are  way way louder than my piped Stuntship!

Randy

[Chris Wilson]

Randy, in all seriousness I reckon its more the repeated Doppler effect from flying a circle.

It not the volume but the warbled alarm type of noise that offends.

RRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRRrrrrrr........etc.  Do that for 6 minutes at any volume and it will get on anyone's nerves.

[Dave_Trible]

I think it's more about how 'useless' and unimportant the annoying activity is-like how useless, annoying, worthless, waste of time soccer is when they are playing a game or practice on what is my idea of MY time on MY flying field when I want to fly. Did I mention how morally degenerate soccer is?

Dave

[Mike Keville]

. . . Did I mention how morally degenerate soccer is?

Dave

KIDS' Soccer?  Yep: "Everyone gets a trophy".

[RandySmith]

Randy, in all seriousness I reckon its more the repeated Doppler effect from flying a circle.

It not the volume but the warbled alarm type of noise that offends.

RRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRRrrrrrr........etc.  Do that for 6 minutes at any volume and it will get on anyone's nerves.

LOL  yea   I hear the doppler of my neighbors lawn mower coming and going  rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr  rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr RRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRR

and his weed whacker   BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz  BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ  bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

and his leaf blower whistles very loudly and high pitch as most all gas ones do.... very much MORE irritating than my Plane , and he swings it back and forth which makes a semi doppler effect to the sound....

So none of that  flies with me, if you get over about 2 circles away from me it is hard to hear the plane.

It is about this... hey that guy is having FUN and making a small amount of noise...lets call the police, or complain to..whoever will listen.

honestly the kids in the park next to my house make way more noise than I ever could even with a loud airplane.

[Brett Buck]

It is about this... hey that guy is having FUN and making a small amount of noise...lets call the police, or complain to..whoever will listen.

    That's it. The AMA spent years with noise reduction plans, and it doesn't make any difference. I have heard stories of people complaining about noise from electrics.

    Brett

[Matt Colan]

I have heard stories of people complaining about noise from electrics.

  What noise?? It's gotta be the lack of noise they're complaining about

[Brett Buck]

What noise?? It's gotta be the lack of noise they're complaining about

  Randy has it exactly right. They see someone out there, doing something unusual and having fun, their lives suck, so they complain about something.

    Brett

[Chris Wilson]

If that logic is correct then the soccer is going to get complained about too, and if that is the case why should anyone listen?

[RandySmith]

If that logic is correct then the soccer is going to get complained about too, and if that is the case why should anyone listen?

Not the same thing..
It isn't the soccer players that make the noise it is the crowd....they are NOT going to complain about themselves... 

Randy