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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Mike Griffin on December 08, 2012, 09:30:36 PM
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What is the advantage/advantages of running a piped engine?
Mike
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What is the advantage/advantages of running a piped engine?
It permits you to use engines of almost arbitrarily large amount of "power" and still be able to have exceptionally fine control of the output.
Brett
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What is the advantage/advantages of running a piped engine?
Over an electric? Only the sound and smell.
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But, the sound and smell is really cool. ;D S?P VD~
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What is the advantage/advantages of running a piped engine?
Over an unpiped engine? Approximately the following:
For |Vw|<5 mph, A = 10,
For |Vw|>5 mph, A = 2 * |Vw|,
where |Vw| is wind speed, A is incremental stunt score per AMA pattern.
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Howard, you're worth the price of admission!
Pipes are loud
Nitro smells
We got power
And that's cool!
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GGGRRRUUUUUUUNNTT!!!
Dave
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If this question is about pipes, the simple answer is power.
IC engines make more power with a tube type muffler / pipe then without.
Back in my old dirt bike days the thing to do was unbolt the factory muffler and bolt up an expansion chamber pipe. More power, and sounded cooler.
I do not run pipes on my planes yet but hope to one day.
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Yeah? Not to my wife... LL~
Bob Hunt
Yes but that's only if you're in this for the "money and the women". LL~
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Thank you Brett and Paul for your answers. I appreciate you answering the question.
Mike
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Hi
Besides the power and sound (which I love) #^
It is much easier to clean ;D
Osni
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The Tuned Pipe has been around for quite a while now, and the application for stunt is different than for other model airplane uses. I can't explain it like Mr. Williams did, but it is an interesting history of development. The system had it's pioneers and developers, and it's detractors also at the time, and was far from a simple bolt on operation. The pipes themselves have changed quite a lot as time has gone by. I remember some guys being VERY frustrated and equipment being bought and sold left and right as interest came and went. Problems with run-aways and such, and other teething issues the same as any other type of power plant. You guys that were part of development and growth of the system ought to fill in the history of it. You may see some parallels to the development of the electric systems as far as speed regulation. From the way I understand it, with the advancement of today's speed controllers for the electrics, they are designing them to do the same job for the electric motor as the pipe does for the I/C engine. I was teasing Crist Rigotti about at SIG this year, all these years we've been trying to make our engines run like an electric motor, and now they are trying to get the electric motors to run our engines!
Good luck and have fun,
Dan McEntee
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Thank you Brett and Paul for your answers. I appreciate you answering the question.
This is an example of the interesting phenomenon of a sincere, well-presented, incorrect answer being preferred over an accurate, snotty-sounding answer. It was often like that at work.
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This is an example of the interesting phenomenon of a sincere, well-presented, incorrect answer being preferred over an accurate, snotty-sounding answer. It was often like that at work.
Incorrect? Interesting. Note that the title of the post is "Engines with Pipes", which most people would interpret as compared to "engines without pipes. Not "Would someone please go OT to wedge in a lecture their latest pet project".
How's that for both snotty AND accurate?
Brett
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If this question is about pipes, the simple answer is power.
IC engines make more power with a tube type muffler / pipe then without.
Back in my old dirt bike days the thing to do was unbolt the factory muffler and bolt up an expansion chamber pipe. More power, and sounded cooler.
I do not run pipes on my planes yet but hope to one day.
Hi Paul,
Since we (Aaron and I) have been running pipes since 1992, I do believe the question of "power" is no longer the point. In the beginning, using a pipe to make a high revving .40 put out more power than a .60 size muffled engine was a large part of the goal.
Now, with more powerful .60 and .75 size engines on pipe the emphasis is on power regulation, not more power.
BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM
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I started running pipes about the same time as the Littles', did the VF thing, loved them, went to PA's, love them, and along with all the good comments of what guys like in this thread, I think for me the greatest advantage has been the consistency. I mean, I set them the way Randy tells me to, prop them for my style, and just run the beasts. If some little thing seems different, I know I need to clean my fuel supply lines, switch filters, check for a hole somewhere, or some MINOR thing like that. They just run steady.
My 4-2-4 engines seem to be so temperamental in getting the right set up where the pipes are plug and play; or have been for me.
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I've only used two piped engines, a PA .51 and an AAC .46VF. Finding the prop that worked for me was, I'd say, a bit more of a challenge than for a good 4-2-4 engine. Relying on Randy Aero's pipe length chart and the pinned articles in the engine forum have always worked pretty well for me, and also reliably, just like Will says. 8) Steve
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Tuned pipes seem a bit complicated to get adjusted just right.
One advantage, as with my rear-exhaust engines with mufflers, is the exhaust goo does not get all over!
Two flights last week, and there was nothing for me to wipe off!
Floyd
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Incorrect? Interesting. Note that the title of the post is "Engines with Pipes", which most people would interpret as compared to "engines without pipes. Not "Would someone please go OT to wedge in a lecture their latest pet project".
How's that for both snotty AND accurate?
OK on snottiness, I guess. Your original answer was technically correct, of course, but relied on three assumptions: 1) that the unstated thing over which which Mike asked what piped engines have an advantage was unpiped engines, b) that the reader understands the private, nonstandard definition of "power" that stunt people use, and iii) that that definition is unique.
I'll grant you that only an a$$hole such as the undersigned would pick on 1) , but I did also state the advantage of piped engines over unpiped engines without the intermediate power discussion.
It just occurred to me that you and I both assumed that Mike was asking about the stunt application. For most tuned pipe applications, Paul's answer was correct and, unlike yours and mine, did not go possibly OT to wedge in lectures on our pet model airplane event.
If I were a smiley-using man, I'd include a smiley for those who prefer their humor wetter. Sorry, Mike. I'm pretty sure I knew what you were asking. Fortunately, Brett and Frank have given you excellent answers.
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Engines with Pipes (for CLPA)
I have not run piped stunt ships. However, I have observed over the years. There are several positive reasons to use tuned pipes on a stunt ship. These comments have to do with "properly set up power trains. One of reasons to use them is to get more power and consistently more useful power from the power train. These set ups will be able to be consistent from one run to the next. The guys running good piped systems will consistently be able to perform better in windy conditions than the unpiped system
This does not mean that an unpiped ship cannot compete with the piped ships. (I have seen an unpiped ship outfly a whole field of piped ships in the wind.) It is just that the pipes tend to minimize the effect of the wind in flying a pattern more so than those ships without the pipe.
KT
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Not "Would someone please go OT to wedge in a lecture their ...
I presume your intention by using the plural pronoun is to out I and I as a Rastafarian. That lost its sting now that ganja's legal in Washington, mon.
Edited for more pronoun work and humor consistency.
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What is the advantage/advantages of running a piped engine?
Mike
It allows your mind to settle back comfortably in the knowledge that you have spent the most amount possible and therefore there is nothing more you could possibly do to ensure a win. ;D
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I presume your intention by using the plural pronoun is to out I and I as a Rastafarian. That lost its sting now that ganja's legal in Washington, mon.
Edited for more pronoun work and humor consistency.
I guess all of your pipes have a new function in life now. That is going to taste terrible....just sayin, mon!
Derek
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Tuned pipes seem a bit complicated to get adjusted just right.
One advantage, as with my rear-exhaust engines with mufflers, is the exhaust goo does not get all over!
Two flights last week, and there was nothing for me to wipe off!
Floyd
Floyd,
Are you running gas? n~
I'd like to see a photo of your set up.
I ran tuned pipes in R/C. Mild increased advantage in RPM but runs were more consistant. Once the pipe was set, it was left alone.
I still have a couple, one is interesting on how it's made, I'll dig it up and get a photo. I'm thinking it may have a use with a CL stunt model? It's thin.
My neighbor does boats. He says electric boats have it all over IC.
Charles
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Charles. I was referring to a Stalker 51, a RE glo engine with stock muffler, which I'm running in a plane called "TIBURON"
(a clone of a LEGACY). I have similar experience with RO-Jett 61 and 76.
F.C.
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I ran tuned pipes in R/C. Mild increased advantage in RPM but runs were more consistant. Once the pipe was set, it was left alone.
I still have a couple, one is interesting on how it's made, I'll dig it up and get a photo. I'm thinking it may have a use with a CL stunt model? It's thin.
Charles
Our application of pipes in CL Stunt is way, way different than in RC. Or in any other use of pipes I know about, from dirt bikes to chain saws.
Dan
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Charles. I was referring to a Stalker 51, a RE glo engine with stock muffler, which I'm running in a plane called "TIBURON"
(a clone of a LEGACY). I have similar experience with RO-Jett 61 and 76.F.C.
Floyd,
My interest was seeing the muffler application, how it was set up on the model? I hate the time spent on cleaning the model.
Our application of pipes in CL Stunt is way, way different than in RC. Or in any other use of pipes I know about, from dirt bikes to chain saws.Dan
Dan,
I imagine they must be, not needing the varation of speed and all.
These thin pipes I have, be nice if they could work, I already have them.
I do have this MVVS .49 RE with a OEM pipe I mentioned early on. This could be a set-up for the smaller Lou Wolgasts Pentastar. The Pentastar kit is available in two sizes. It's a great design, I can't stop thinking about the model.
Charles
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that looks very similar to the OS VF.46 set up Iv'e been using for years.
Lynn Weedman
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that looks very similar to the OS VF.46 set up Iv'e been using for years.Lynn Weedman
Lynn,
What model do you have your OS VF .46 in?
Also, not sure you'll have this info but, what does just the engine and pipe weigh?
Charles
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Charles, where you want put the tank? I do not see too much space between muffler and NVA VD~
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One problem with rear-exhaust mufflers (and tuned pipes too, I guess) the outlet is in-line with the muffler body. Unless you build a funny-shaped fuselage, the outlet is inside, or too close to the fuselage. On all my RE engines with stock mufflers, I make a "stinger" extension from brass tubing at a 45 deg angle. JB Weld seems to hold it OK. The outlet of the extension is about 1" below the fuselage. So that takes care of exhaust goo.
I've tried using a DuBro "rubber ducky" stinger, but have a tough time keeping them attached.
Floyd
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Charles, where you want put the tank? I do not see too much space between muffler and NVA VD~
Igor,
Good point.
Maybe Lynn will post a photo?
Charles
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Charles, where you want put the tank? I do not see too much space between muffler and NVA VD~
Igor, a 1" tank will still fit under that muffler and when the engine is mounted on plates there will be even more room.
Or you could just side mount it ............. but I highly suspect that your sense of humor is rising to the fore here! :)
(Charles, we covered this subject before mate.)
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Igor, a 1" tank will still fit under that muffler and when the engine is mounted on plates there will be even more room.Or you could just side mount it ............. but I highly suspect that your sense of humor is rising to the fore here! :)(Charles, we covered this subject before mate.)
Chris,
Yes, I'm trying to remember, as you said, I believe it was a side mounted tank.
I made drawings for that shared information, I should look for them.
Do you think the future for stunt will eventually be electric?
Charles
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Stunt will be all electric when no more IC engines are allowed to compete because of the noise. I have people complain even with a muffler.
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Chris,
Do you think the future for stunt will eventually be electric?
Charles
Presuming that the future is always advancing the technology at the exclusion of what went before, then yes - but this has not always proven to be the case.
In a utopian world the ultimate will be virtual realities, so how far into the future does one care to look?
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Charles, In the future you will just fly in a dome and shine your plane image on the walls of the dome to scribe out your pattern. All the trick stuff will be in your handle/light saber. We will have long arguments about gyro stabilization in our handle to smooth out the tricks (ever try to hold a flashlight steady at 70ft?)and weather or not you built your own light saber like a true Jedi should. Pull tests will be controversial but still eliminated even though some people will provide charts to prove that the plane image has some mass and insist to multiply that mass x10. PAMPA will vote to hand out sunglasses to spectators instead. Nats Winners will get a date with carrie fisher, losers get 2 dates with carrie fisher.
Eric V.
PS: no, really, I'm serious! 2 dates with fisher! Eeeek!
Presuming that the future is always advancing the technology at the exclusion of what went before, then yes - but this has not always proven to be the case.
In a utopian world the ultimate will be virtual realities so far far into the future does one care to look?
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PS: no, really, I'm serious! 2 dates with fisher! Eeeek!
Beats the heck out of two dates with Bobby Fischer. y1
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Eric,
Quite an imagination. Are you a writer?
Could be virtual (sp?) and the "dome" will be over the competitor's head. n~
Charles
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Stunt will be all electric when no more IC engines are allowed to compete because of the noise. I have people complain even with a muffler.
What do these dummasses say when people mow their lawn???
Trim the hedges????
Crank up the leaf blower???
Yell at football games????
Sing loudly at concerts???
etc......... all are way way louder than my piped Stuntship!
Randy
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Randy, in all seriousness I reckon its more the repeated Doppler effect from flying a circle.
It not the volume but the warbled alarm type of noise that offends.
RRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRRrrrrrr........etc. Do that for 6 minutes at any volume and it will get on anyone's nerves.
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I think it's more about how 'useless' and unimportant the annoying activity is-like how useless, annoying, worthless, waste of time soccer is when they are playing a game or practice on what is my idea of MY time on MY flying field when I want to fly. Did I mention how morally degenerate soccer is?
Dave
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. . . Did I mention how morally degenerate soccer is?
Dave
KIDS' Soccer? Yep: "Everyone gets a trophy".
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Randy, in all seriousness I reckon its more the repeated Doppler effect from flying a circle.
It not the volume but the warbled alarm type of noise that offends.
RRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrRRRRRRRrrrrrr........etc. Do that for 6 minutes at any volume and it will get on anyone's nerves.
LOL yea I hear the doppler of my neighbors lawn mower coming and going rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr RRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRR
and his weed whacker BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
and his leaf blower whistles very loudly and high pitch as most all gas ones do.... very much MORE irritating than my Plane , and he swings it back and forth which makes a semi doppler effect to the sound....
So none of that flies with me, if you get over about 2 circles away from me it is hard to hear the plane.
It is about this... hey that guy is having FUN and making a small amount of noise...lets call the police, or complain to..whoever will listen.
honestly the kids in the park next to my house make way more noise than I ever could even with a loud airplane.
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It is about this... hey that guy is having FUN and making a small amount of noise...lets call the police, or complain to..whoever will listen.
That's it. The AMA spent years with noise reduction plans, and it doesn't make any difference. I have heard stories of people complaining about noise from electrics.
Brett
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I have heard stories of people complaining about noise from electrics.
??? ??? ??? What noise?? It's gotta be the lack of noise they're complaining about
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??? ??? ??? What noise?? It's gotta be the lack of noise they're complaining about
Randy has it exactly right. They see someone out there, doing something unusual and having fun, their lives suck, so they complain about something.
Brett
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If that logic is correct then the soccer is going to get complained about too, and if that is the case why should anyone listen?
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If that logic is correct then the soccer is going to get complained about too, and if that is the case why should anyone listen?
Not the same thing..
It isn't the soccer players that make the noise it is the crowd....they are NOT going to complain about themselves... ;D
Randy
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I guess everyone has to deal with soccer players. They tie up Buder Park with large tournaments from time to time. Frequently we have to deal with attempts to turn the model airplane sights into ball diamonds and soccer parks because there will be some parent that likes that location because it is convenient for him/her to see/coach their kid's soccer team. We have letter writing campaigns that remind everyone that there are LOTS of other parks to play soccer on, and only ONE model airplane field. There was a letter to the editor of the local newspaper by a guy that went to Buder, a known model airplane sight, to walk his dog and complained about the noise. Never mind that there are 5 other parks within 5 minutes driving time that are actually better parks for walking and hiking, but maybe they were an inconvenience to him. In talking about the situation with a Park Ranger once, I pointed out a group of kids practicing soccer, and told him I would guarantee that about half of those kids didn't want to be there, some would be interested in what I was doing and you could tell by the rubber necking going on, and they were only participating because their parents made them do it. I told him I had been flying models at Buder Park since 1975, and I would challenge him to go find ANY soccer player that was a second or third generation user of the park. Once the kids play a year or three, they move on to something else. Back in my R/C sailplane days, I was flying at another local park and getting some good lift and long flights. The kids baseball team that was playing/practicing at the next ball diamond was having a hard time concentrating on what they were doing, so the coach came over to me and told me to "bring that thing down so it doesn't distract the kids!" And I wasn't even making any noise!!! LL~ LL~ So I politely explained to him that I was a resident of the city, had a right and permission to fly there, and that I couldn't help it if what I was doing was more fun that what he was doing! It's an ongoing battle. Always some parent that thinks they have a little political pull or influence and push you around, the after a few years they are gone and another one takes their place. It's one of those things that always made Pogo say, "Hoooo Boy!"
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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At the NATs in Pasco WA. one year we were flying on a City designated site, with full permission, several 100 yards away kids were practicing Little League Baseball.
Several of the parents called the police stating they didn't want us to fly there because we were distracting them.
The police came flying out there, driving the squad cars across the grass and into the circle to stop us from flying , and remove us from the site, They were told we had permission and this was a site that we had been flying on all week, They checked with the city then just went away.
I have seen this many many times, and most every case the model plane pilot is considered to be the one in the wrong right off the bat.
Randy
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At the NATs in Pasco WA. one year we were flying on a City designated site, with full permission, several 100 yards away kids were practicing Little League Baseball.
Several of the parents called the police stating they didn't want us to fly there because we were distracting them.
The police came flying out there, driving the squad cars across the grass and into the circle to stop us from flying , and remove us from the site, They were told we had permission and this was a site that we had been flying on all week, They checked with the city then just went away.
I have seen this many many times, and most every case the model plane pilot is considered to be the one in the wrong right off the bat.
Randy
Very interesting Randy.
A number of years ago we had an incident at our flying field here in Tucson. Anyone who has been to VSC is familiar with our flying facility and the layout of the field...we sometimes share the grass area with some other events and that usually is no problem as we simply use only the hardtop circles and the other users use the grass area. However on one occasion when Middle Schoolers were holding a cross country track meet (this is an annual event) on a Sunday when a fairly large number of folks were flying on the hardtop circles, a very irate parent (Mother of one of the participants) came storming and shouting towards the circle where a stunt pattern was being flowing shouting "Stop that thing, stop that thing" and other epithets that I wont repeat here. Yours truly happened to be at the top of the pit area adjacent to the circle and the grass area performing pull tests when I realized she was obviously going to run into the circle. I quickly placed myself between the circle and her in a blocking effort with my arms extended to stop her at which time she started swinging at me and repeating her verbal tirade. Thanks to being a little younger then and having a firm background in martial arts, I managed to avert her charge and swings without actually touching her but she did fall to the ground (tripped over her own feet) at which time she bounded back up with an obvious intent to continue her assault on me and the evil airplane flying behind me. Fortunately for her and perhaps me and the airplane her spouse (a very big burly guy) grabbed her from behind, picked her up, still screaming and carried her back across the grass area from which she had come, still kicking flailing and screaming about the airplane and noise.
A few minutes later the running coach for the young people came over and apologized for the incident. He said that she had complained to him that the noise from the airplanes was preventing her son from hearing the starting commands for the races and that the airplanes had no right to be in a public park. He said he had told her that the noise wasn't loud enough to interfere with the starting commands and that the flying club had made the facility available to the runners on a sharing basis...guess that wasn't good enough for her, so she decided to take her own action. I explained that my concern was for her being struck by the airplane and he simply shook his head and said "some people are just nuts!
I have to agree.
People can be really nuts about something they feel is encroaching on their little world regardless of the circumstances.
Randy Cuberly
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Igor, a 1" tank will still fit under that muffler and when the engine is mounted on plates there will be even more room.
Or you could just side mount it ............. but I highly suspect that your sense of humor is rising to the fore here! :)
(Charles, we covered this subject before mate.)
May be I see it wrong, but seems to me that there is only few milimeters free space. And if you put motor on plates, it will not help, tank must be in level of NVA and it is only few mm from muffler.
However if you mean side mounted engine, then it can be, but in that case you have NVA out of the circle (relative to the tank), so I think motor will tend to go rich after launching. It is also not the best, because then it goes again lean overhead and such model likes to accelerate down in vertical descending segments of figures. That is why we used many years outboard mounted MVVS GRRT type with rear intake. I can say that it was my best running muffled engine ever :- )))
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Igor,
Great looking model, smooth lines! I like it! Yours?
Got a better photo? ;D
I understand what you are saying. The inverted setup could possibly work if an adapter was available to lower the pipe a tad. Don't need much, .125" to .1875". Correct?
Cleaner look with the engine inverted.
Looks like you have a great deal of experience with the MVVS RE engines.
Did you have issues with the NVA as you stated?
However if you mean side mounted engine, then it can be, but in that case you have NVA out of the circle (relative to the tank), so I think motor will tend to go rich after launching.
What exactly is "MVVS GRRT type with rear intake?"
Thanks for the info.
BTW. There was a modeler with an MVVS .49 like mine that had a constant bench run at 7700 RPM on U-Tube.
Charles
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Yes, manifold with offset 1" or more will solve it.
That model is called "Zarlok" what means Shark in english. You can see motor compartment and also its intake in line of crankshaft. So it means that tank fits very well. It is model of Ivan Cani, ex-czechoslovak representant. It is back from 1980 or so. It was I beamer. He was first who used MVVS GRRT and he was happy because it worked symetrically (whole engine construction is symetrical) and it always did very clean 4-2-4 run (unlike schnuerle ported HP used those days). So that was reason that almost everyone of us did similar model :-)). The only disadvantage was the weight, orriginally it was only 6,5 ccm (.40) and later MVVS drilled larger holes to 8ccm (.49) and it was stronger and lighter :- ))
MVVS 6.5 GRRT was orriginally designed for pylon racing, but since MVVS was here so they did special stunt ABC sleeve with low timing and it was able to make lot pf torque and goo stunt run. Looks like the same storry like Nelson and Jett stunt engines :-))
You can see pictures here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1755471
The "magic" muffler designed for pylon racing was not usefull for stunt, but it needed to drill hole inside the muffler to open a vent in that inside tube and safely "distuned" muffler to normal exhaust muffler. Also larger exhaust tube did run better.
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Igor,
Thanks for that info.
These MVVS .40 and .49 engines do seem a tad heavy and larger than "SPORT" engines like the OS's.
I'm guessing they are top of the line quality competitive engines?
I had two .40 but sold one. I should have kept it. All I have is one .40 and one .49.
None of mine are rear intake engines.
I'm guessing you bench run them and experiment with props and pipes?
Thanks again!
Charles
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Yes heavier, but in era after MVVS 5,6A we had on that so we could not choose :-))
And yes my first piped model was such configuration with pipe over the wing, like first piped F3A models, but later I soon went to classic inverted engine with pipe inside the fuselage, or 45 degrees mounter OS .46LA :- )) ... and later PA and JETT ... and now ... electric VD~
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ELECTRIC!
Hummm, I have the "Electra" on the drawing board.
Something I may consider when I pick up a few extra bucks. My neighbors would like that. n~
Charles
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Yes heavier, but in era after MVVS 5,6A we had on that so we could not choose :-))
And yes my first piped model was such configuration with pipe over the wing, like first piped F3A models, but later I soon went to classic inverted engine with pipe inside the fuselage, or 45 degrees mounter OS .46LA :- )) ... and later PA and JETT ... and now ... electric VD~
Igor,
Yes, your accomplishments with electrics. Kudos! H^^
Do you have a website, someplace one could go to read about your efforts and accomplishments?
Thank you for the information.
Charles
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May be I see it wrong, but seems to me that there is only few milimeters free space. And if you put motor on plates, it will not help, tank must be in level of NVA and it is only few mm from muffler.
However if you mean side mounted engine, then it can be, but in that case you have NVA out of the circle (relative to the tank), so I think motor will tend to go rich after launching. It is also not the best, because then it goes again lean overhead and such model likes to accelerate down in vertical descending segments of figures. That is why we used many years outboard mounted MVVS GRRT type with rear intake. I can say that it was my best running muffled engine ever :- )))
I agree that there are only a few millimeters left between the tank and muffler but that is all that is needed - and a 1" inch tank does fit.
This topic seems to rear its head from time to time and its a non sense, the muffler only looks impossibly low not that it actually is.
Placing the engine on plates in an invert installation will allow the tank to be raised slightly (without carving out the bearers) to get an even run from inverted to upright as not all tank feeds are exactly inline with NVA.
I had an MVVS 51 GRRT for a while, pity I sold it.
Cheers.