Trying to learn to fly my Shoestring Stunter... Trying

[RknRusty]

I should be embarrassed to let y'all see this video, but what the heck, I learn a lot from you guys.

I tried the 10x4 woody we discussed in another thread, needled to just off peak on the rich side, but it still wanted to die in the loops. And wasn't much faster than the MA 9x5 in the flats, definitely less dependable. It shut down before the tank was empty and I had to land inverted. I also tried the wooden MA 9x5, but the Thunder Tiger didn't like that either and I ended up back with the plastic MA 9x5. I seem to always be able to count on it for a full run and enough power when I need it.

I tried to do the AMA beginner's pattern, but it was so windy, I skipped the overheads. I was also suffering from a lack of confidence. Not sure why, but some days are just like that. Especially without a backup plane. My flying was just awful today. I know I can do better. Hell, I can snatch a 1/2A plane around at will at high speeds and still smile while I'm doing it. But this is a whole new game. I'll keep at it. Hopefully I can show off something better soon.

So here is what I did today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHh-n_LvhfQ&feature=youtu.be

[Brett Buck]

I should be embarrassed to let y'all see this video, but what the heck, I learn a lot from you guys.

I tried the 10x4 woody we discussed in another thread, needled to just off peak on the rich side, but it still wanted to die in the loops. And wasn't much faster than the MA 9x5 in the flats, definitely less dependable. It shut down before the tank was empty and I had to land inverted. I also tried the wooden MA 9x5, but the Thunder Tiger didn't like that either and I ended up back with the plastic MA 9x5. I seem to always be able to count on it for a full run and enough power when I need it.

I tried to do the AMA beginner's pattern, but it was so windy, I skipped the overheads. I was also suffering from a lack of confidence. Not sure why, but some days are just like that. Especially without a backup plane. My flying was just awful today. I know I can do better. Hell, I can snatch a 1/2A plane around at will at high speeds and still smile while I'm doing it. But this is a whole new game. I'll keep at it. Hopefully I can show off something better soon.

So here is what I did today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHh-n_LvhfQ&feature=youtu.be

   Try a 10-4 APC (plastic!) instead of wood. That will DRASTICALLY unload the engine. I agree the 10-4 wood in the first part of the video is not making it, even with youtube and video camera sound, you can hear the " I am very tired" sound.

    You're doing fine, by the way, you need airtime and you are doing the right things!

   Brett

[RknRusty]

   Try a 10-4 APC (plastic!) instead of wood. That will DRASTICALLY unload the engine. I agree the 10-4 wood in the first part of the video is not making it, even with youtube and video camera sound, you can hear the " I am very tired" sound.

    You're doing fine, by the way, you need airtime and you are doing the right things!

   Brett

I even had an APC with me, but my impatience resulted in my omitting it. Patience is something I really need to make myself practice with this new endeavor.

[ray copeland]

Rusty, I think you are doin great with your practice by yourself! I can still remember my first attempts at a clover, I thought they were supposed to be below 45 degrees, you can imagine me standing on my tipee toes trying to save my plane every time. At my first attempt in a contest for beginner I can still remember someone saying in the background they had never seen a figure 8 that small! My first instruction from an experienced flyer was to make my loops bigger and smoother, really helped a lot, I think that would help you with your engine runs also. Your inverted flight looks really good. Good luck and keep it goin!

[Randy Ryan]

By the way, don't ever let embarrassment hold you back, everyone here all the way to the top flyers started out just like you. Flying with experienced pilots will give you unlimited insights that will help you progress.

[RknRusty]

Thanks, guys, y'all's encouragement will help me through this beginners part. I tend to only see the bad parts when I reflect on my performance. A flying buddy would be great. I'm the only one at my club that flies CL, and they are fascinated with it, especially when I put on a 1/2A exhibition. They're riveted and entertained but but can offer no advice.

I need to learn to handle the wind better. That was really hurting me today, just more practice i guess. An RC guy was out there and gave up because it was too windy for his fifty something inch F3 hellcat. I'm not blowing off anything Brett tells me. If I could do it over, I would try the APC 10x4. I will next time. I think the Shoestring is a good stunt trainer. I'm glad to have it. I just hope it can stand up to the punishment I'm putting it through. I haven't shown you a couple of the wheel splats I've done, but so far it's a tough little sucker.

Thanks for following my progress.
Rusty

[Paul Taylor]

Rusty
Like someone said we all started the same way your doing it.  (Just look at some of my old post)
Keep doing what your doing. Burn more fuel and break a few trainers. Have a few ready to go with no emotional ties. As soon as you can do insides and outsides without carnage on the field go to a 40 size plane and don't look back.
A expert flyer is just a beginner that never quit flying. 

And something a good friend told me.  Fly down but not for very long. 

But most of all, slow down, relax, fly big, and most of all have fun. 

[Reptoid]

    I don't want to seem like I'm being critical or start a debate about who knows what but you need to lower your tank like I suggested before in the other thread.
   Changing the propeller or the needle setting is not going to correct the fact that it's leaner on outsides than it is on insides (as you can see in the video). Hence the reason that when you leaned it out overall,  it quit lean in an outside loop (after sagging lean badly on several previous outside loops)
   Once you get it adjusted so that it's even inside or outside you can play with props and tweek the needle setting for the type of run and airspeed you want.

[Rick Bollinger]

Rusty, I fly beginner as well. You are doing a great job. Best tip I could give is. Lessen handle spacing like has been said. And make maneuvers big and high. Concentrating on smooth. Hope to see you at a contest sometime.

[RknRusty]

Thanks. Everyone who answered chipped in some helpful perspective and advice. I'll pay attention to it and keep working on it. And Reptiod, you're right, I should've lowered my tank. I was surprised at how fast it ran inverted, especially in that set of outside loops. By the third one I felt like I was clipping the weeds. I need to make myself take the time to relax, be patient and use more of the air, bigger and smoother. I laughed at Ray's story about the smallest figure 8s.

Last week I was eagerly trying to jump straight into advanced stunts, trying V8s. This week I backed up and started where I should. Hopefully soon I'll have some improved results to show off. Meanwhile, the Yak-9 is slowly coming along. I don't know if it'll be as good of a trainer, but at least it'll be a backup.

Rusty

[john e. holliday]

Boy Rusty, I wish I could be there in person to help you.   Biggest fault I see is that you are rushing it, especially the outsides.  If you are like what I used to be many years ago,  the big airplanes were too much for the pocket book and worry about crashing.   I think everyone started there first loops big and tightened up too much at the top of the loops.   Your outsides do look like they are being rushed too much.  But, that is where practice comes into play.   I know SC is a big state, but hopefully you can find someone fairly close to fly with, even just once a month if distance is the problem.   Like I said, I wish I could be there with you.

[Bill Johnson]

....If you are like what I used to be many years ago,  the big airplanes were too much for the pocket book and worry about crashing. 

That's what I'm worried about. I like Ty's advice "three or four more practice planes. Go to a meet and usually some one has a few old bangers for sale cheap. Look them over, make an offer. No emotion attached so if  you break one, repair it and fly the wings off." Plus I'm starting with a 1/2A.

Good luck, Rusty. I like your idea of filming the flights. Not only can these guys advise, but you can also review your maneuvers.

[Steve Helmick]

I've tried (and tried) to watch the video, but for some reason, the airplane stops and then shows up someplace else. I can hear some of the engine run (10-4 TF wood, Power Point assumed), and it seems either lean or some sort of tank problem, leading me to ask if it runs the same upright and inverted?

If you can fly a 1/2a well, you should be stellar with the Shoe, assuming that it's straight and well powered. I have considerable disdain for Master Airscrew props and would encourage you to try the nasty looking APCs, because they work so very well!  Steve

[Jim Thomerson]

It is important to get the engine to run consistantly.  Until it does, you are really held up on learning maneuvers.  I'd second the advice to fly big and high, and pay attention to how the engine runs.  Move the tank around, try different props, etc.,  until the engine does the same good thing every time and is utterly boring.  Ideally you get to the point where you do not hear the engine, because you are not paying any attention to it, and are focused on flying the airplane.

[Jim Morris]

Alot of good advise on hear. Yes, your engine runs need to be consistant or you will be chasing your tail to learn the pattern.After the engine runs are worked out,fly, fly and learn the beginner pattern. Believe it or not you will wreck less planes doing the pattern over and over. At least thats my experience.

[RknRusty]

Boy Rusty, I wish I could be there in person to help you.   Biggest fault I see is that you are rushing it, especially the outsides.  If you are like what I used to be many years ago,  the big airplanes were too much for the pocket book and worry about crashing....

John, I'd be honored to have you as my tutor. I know one guy from another club about 45 miles away and he's mastering the novice pattern, and has years of experience "playing" with the big CL planes. We're going to try and get together once a month or so. Stooge flying really is a lot of work for me. I'm a 28 year dialysis patient, and though I feel really good, my stamina gets worn down just getting out and setting up to fly. I'm pretty tired by the time of the first flight. Having an occasional flying buddy will at least make those days much easier. Looks like rain, but if they're wrong, maybe he and I can meet up at my field on Sunday.

...Good luck, Rusty. I like your idea of filming the flights. Not only can these guys advise, but you can also review your maneuvers.

Yeah, I was trying to use my new stopwatch while flying and almost plowed a row at the field, so I quit using it. But when I got home, I watched the video and clicked off my lap times and run time. FYI, it's 5.2 seconds in the flat laps, 5.0 inverted(will fix that), and 5:13 on my engine run from crank to cutoff. And I like showing off too.

I've tried (and tried) to watch the video, but for some reason, the airplane stops and then shows up someplace else. I can hear some of the engine run (10-4 TF wood, Power Point assumed), and it seems either lean or some sort of tank problem, leading me to ask if it runs the same upright and inverted?

If you can fly a 1/2a well, you should be stellar with the Shoe, assuming that it's straight and well powered. I have considerable disdain for Master Airscrew props and would encourage you to try the nasty looking APCs, because they work so very well!  Steve

Steve, I record in HD. If you click the little "Gear" looking icon on the lower right of the Youtube window, you can select a lower resolution. That should smooth it out for you.

The Shoestring is straight in every direction except for 2 degree outboard thrust wedges on the engine, and some rudder offset. The wings, stab, and fuse are straight. I can set it on glass and a jig and trace the LE and TE with a caliper and see no warps in the wing. It never loses tension, and only pulls too hard when it's on its lean end run. I can see the outboard wheel peeking out from behind the inboard wheel, so it has a very small yaw. In my first posts here I was worried about it having an outboard tip-high roll, but it's level according to a couple of different spotters I've tasked with watching it.

I am a confident 1/2A flier, have been since I was a kid, and can freestyle all of the basic stunts, even the overgeads. Never tried smoothing them out into regulation shapes though, since I fly full speed. As in a bladder fed Norvel .061 on a 7.2oz Streak with a 5x3 prop, screaming fast. So I've got the reflexes, and I'm finding it's hard to slow them down.

Maybe I should put a slow prop on one of my babies, maybe an APC 6x2, and fly some pattern flights with that. The setup is quick and easy too, just set up the wing holder stooge, unroll the handle and lines and fly. So I'm not whipped by the time I launch my first flight. I know Jim Thomerson has said he likes to fly a pattern with a 1/2A to tune up before a contest with a full sized one.

It is important to get the engine to run consistantly.  Until it does, you are really held up on learning maneuvers.  I'd second the advice to fly big and high, and pay attention to how the engine runs.  Move the tank around, try different props, etc.,  until the engine does the same good thing every time and is utterly boring.  Ideally you get to the point where you do not hear the engine, because you are not paying any attention to it, and are focused on flying the airplane.

When I first got it dialed in back on June 2nd(no camera that day) I had my tank lower and it was pretty close between inverted and upright. After that, I remade my tank mount and had it set higher resulting in what you saw in my last two videos. When I cleaned her up today I set it even with the centerline and can easily adjust from there. The problem was obvious in yesterdays flights.

[RknRusty]

A week from Huntersville and I've spent all Summer trying to get an engine run I can fly with. I tried a lot of you guys' suggestions and finally cherry picked the magic puzzle pieces. Today was the first time I could fly without diddling with the engine, props, tank, venturi, spraybar... Yiiii, it was driving me nuts. I couldn't just fly and practice.

So today the recipe was a home made .025" head gasket stacked on top of the stock .015", a 9x4 Master Airscrew prop, 10/22 fuel(rather than 15/22), and the game was on. I got five flights.

Flight 1. Too lean, un-stuntable

Flight 2. Slightly richer, launch at 11,900 - 12,000 RPMs, over leans when I make turns, a few stunts, a few aborts and greased a nice tail wind landing.

Flight 3. (Video)1/8 turn richer, about 11,800 RPMs, and it only over leans when I pull too tight loops, but I fly a full pattern, although the H8s and OH8s were too tight and ugly, but complete.

Flight 4. Same needle, opened up loops and 8s, full pattern and I'll be happy to fly that well in Huntersville.

Intermission. ARF RC guy arrives and I turn the field over to him and take a break.

Flight 5. (Video) Getting late and I hurry. Same needle and RPM, this is to be the crown jewel of the day. Long rolling takeoff and noticed the stooge line wrapping around my ankles. I flew and kicked and flailed my feet and flew and kicked. I did a few distracted goofy stunts but never got the line off until I finally popped it after the OH8 which was a total botch. The ARF guy congratulates me on an amazingly skillful flight. I asked him if he saw me kicking at the stooge line, and he said, "Yeah, there's no rule against that is there?" I'm glad he was impressed. This one will make a comical video.

I hope the wind is blowing in Hville. Last week I had trouble with loose wingovers and OH8s with no tailwind. One more inch of pitch might be the cure for that if it comes down to it. My overhead 8s need to get consistently wider. I'm still turning too soon up there. Did one good one today though.

So here's the video of flight number 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW4G4jIKVsQ&feature=youtu.be

I'll make a comical movie of the stooge act later. I look like I'm doing the Hokey Pokey and flying at the same time.

Rusty

[ray copeland]

Rusty, you are so much better than i was at that stage!! Great inverted flying.  See ya at Huntersville!! Gonna send ya a pm.

[RknRusty]

Haha, here's the video of the stooge around my ankles. I set my kick dance to music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo-rSCKgnUE&feature=youtu.be

[john e. holliday]

That is funny. But, I have a question,  Do you have the other end of your stooge line anchored to the stooge?   I have use the Bob Hunt stooge and my latest is a special off the bay.  They are spring loaded and the stooge handle I use lands about 5 to 10 feet away from me when I turn it loose.  Plus the line I use is a little stretchy also.   Got four flights in yesterday at the new circle in Lenexa KS. using the stooge.  Had to go pick up my granddaughter from practice after school.

[RknRusty]

John, my stooge is a 6" x 6" maple plank staked to the ground with two 10" gutter nails, and with two plastic coated eyelets screwed side by side. The tail skid is 3/32 wire and ends in a loop. A 14" steel shish kabob skewer hooked to the line slides through all three to hold the plane, and then under a fat rubber band for added safety and to stiffen the pull. The .018" line running out to the handle, luckily is not long enough, so it ends with 6' of dacron line at the handle. That's what was wrapping me up.

I usually throw the handle and step 5 steps back to my spot marker rag, but somehow I apparently didn't. Next thing I knew my ankles were being mummified. I managed to keep it from tightening, and finally broke the line right before the video ended. I think I was loose when I did that last figure 8.

My music caused a Youtube copyright infringement that prevents it from being viewed on a mobile device.

Rusty

[Jim Thomerson]

My stooge doesn't have the pin, which is quite long, attached to the stooge.  I don't remember if I have ever gotten tangled, but my idea is that if I did, I would not be tied to the stooge.  I would think, on getting tangled, one should just fly lazy 8's until out of fuel.  I have pulled the pin and nothing happened.  I just stood there holding the handle and contemplating the universe until the engine ran out of fuel.

[Tim Wescott]

The handle end of my stooge is the spool that the string came wrapped on.  I set the stooge and plane out so that I have to walk back about ten feet to the center of the circle, and so that the end of the stooge line is about two feet forward of the handle.  This forces me to lean forward when I grab the stooge.  I gently pull back on the stooge line, then drop (not throw!) the stooge line while I'm stepping back to fly the plane.

At the stooge, the pin is tied to the line, which is tied to the stooge.  So when I pull the pin it can't go anywhere.

No problems yet, but I've only been flying with it for about three years.

[RknRusty]

My launching routine usually keeps my feet clear of the stooge line, but I must have been concentrating so hard on a smooth rolling takeoff that I didn't pay enough attention to tossing the handle away. I've never cared about takeoff style until recently.

My landings were better before I started trying to make them pretty. I think I'm slowing too much before touching down. My best one Thursday was faster(with a tailwind) than the rest and it rolled in and stopped without bouncing. The one in the video was pretty bouncy, pretty much stalled and fell onto the grass. I will be flying over grass in the beginner class next Sunday.
Rusty

[Steve Helmick]

FWIW, when I use a stooge, I use a Stanley chalk-line reloaded with 50 lb. test Dacron fishing line. Less stretch works a lot better for me, plus the stock string is fuzzy to hold the chalk powder better and collects 'stuff'. I did NOT put in the chalk, FWIW. The Stanley reel is a bit slow...a Nordic Glider (F1A) winch would solve that, but it'd take up more room and be more likely to be damaged thrashing around in my pickup.

Once the stooge is released, I pitch or skid (depending on grass or asphalt) the spool about 20' toward the stooge to get it out of my way. I too had the stooge line get wound up in my feet...but only once. I had that happen once while flying F1A, too. Not a good experience there, either.    Steve

[RknRusty]

Changing the subject, I learned something a couple of weeks ago. Flying in dead calm air sucks. I could hardly do wingovers without the tailwind helping push it over the top, and line tension was a luxury. Maybe if I ease into the wingover and the OH8 entry, instead of my usual snap turn. I sure hope the breeze is firm and steady in Hvill next week. The closer it gets, the more things I'm thinking of to fret about. I know I can fly the whole beginner pattern now, but I'm trying my best not to think of things that could go wrong. The butterflies are plotting against me.

[Brett Buck]

Changing the subject, I learned something a couple of weeks ago. Flying in dead calm air sucks. I could hardly do wingovers without the tailwind helping push it over the top, and line tension was a luxury. Maybe if I ease into the wingover and the OH8 entry, instead of my usual snap turn. I sure hope the breeze is firm and steady in Hvill next week. The closer it gets, the more things I'm thinking of to fret about. I know I can fly the whole beginner pattern now, but I'm trying my best not to think of things that could go wrong. The butterflies are plotting against me.

   You are doing fine, this is a process, and you are doing the right things, mostly, to move ahead.

    I don't know how much I should say about this shortly before your first contest, but looking at the video, it appears your engine is not performing. At no time would I expect to see it in a 4-stroke, and it definitely should not be fading out lean on insides (which is why you are having to set it so rich). It looks fine on outsides. I suspect a tank or vibration issue but I can't imagine what it might be. It should be able to hold a steady medium 2 throughout the flight, which will give you more speed and more line tension.

     I would expect that there should be no problem with line tension even in dead air. The usual problem with this sort of combination is that it is too fast, not too slow.

   In the video I watched, there were some piloting issues as well, in particular, you seem to start out with relatively small maneuvers, and when it gets a little out of shape, it gets even tighter. That tends to bleed off speed and that also reduces the tension. That's just a matter of flying time, too.

    Ultimately, however, if you can get a decent engine run you and still have inadequate line tension (or even if the engine is still a little off), adding more tip weight will firm it up for you, and only hurt in a few places in the beginner pattern. Throw another 1/4 ounce in there and see what it does. Keep adding until something bad happens. You will get more overall tension, and make the  few corners look less smooth. Better too much than not enough. For a full AMA pattern at higher levels, that isn't a good plan, but it should work here.

    brett

   

[Tim Wescott]

What engine?  I've never had to touch my little OS FP 20 or LA 25 engines; they just run and run and run.

If it's one of those, then they should be working much better.

Are you running a fuel filter?  If not -- do so!  The instant that I started running a fuel filter on my FP-20 I went from a different flight every time to the same engine run time after time.  That "instant" isn't hyperbole, either -- it was better from the first flight.

Good luck this weekend!

[RknRusty]

Thanks for the replies. Here's all I can think to tell you that may help your picture of what I'm dealing with.
I am using a filter and I backwash it briefly after each fill. The fuel line is only 3" long and straight over the top since I inverted the spraybar. The one hole spraybar is aligned properly, pointed straight into the cavity around the sprinkler holes. The wedge tank centerline is a bit less than a quarter inch higher than the engine center, uniflow vent is open air, tank padded with a beer koozie square that's tapered slightly so the rear of the tank is kicked out a tiny bit to offset any yaw, but not kicked out enough to even be noticeable. The tank is strapped on with 2 rubber bands, and I put 2 drops per quart of Armor All in the fuel for anti-foam. The engine is braced against ~3/32" Dural bearers on both sides of the beam and tight with 2 degree nylon offset wedges, and a balanced prop. The venturi is tight against it's o-ring and I can't turn or wobble it, so I'm sure it isn't leaking air. The engine responds accurately, although slowly to needle adjustments. Could my pad be too thick causing the tank to be too far outboard?

Running full 2-stroke it pulls 3.9 second laps on 60' with a 9x4 prop, but cuts out in every turn. If I richen it and fly wide like I'm supposed to, I can avoid the coughs. In fact on my next flight after the one I recorded, I did just that. Before that excursion on Thursday, I reduced the power by adding a .025" shim to the existing .015" shim for a total head clearance of .040". The shim is home made, so I ordered and received today, a pair of new .015 shims. Using all three .015s would give me .045" clearance. I haven't decided to make that change before next weekend though. I also went down from 15% to 10% nitro. I previously had 15% because I was expecting 100F temps this Summer.

I'm going to partially re-cover the wings because there are some patches where the grass has shredded it. At that time I am going to replace the leadouts and will add some extra tip weight. I will strive for wider loops, I know this has been an issue for me since the beginning. But I have spent every practice session fooling with props and engine runs without being able to concentrate on flying. Thursday is the first day I've actually been able to fly and only think about flying, and only the second and third time I've successfully completed the pattern. Even though it was an ugly example. I know I can do better. I'll get one more practice in Columbia and then all day on Saturday in Huntersville before my contest flights on Sunday. I know I will improve as long as the engine behaves. Like I said, if I avoid tightening up, I can avoid the unnerving coughs.

I hope this gives you some useful information, and I'm willing to try some minor changes if I can have some practice time up there. One thing I have not tried is running pressure from the muffler to the uni vent. But my endurance isn't very strong, so I'm physically limited and must avoid exhaustion. I want as many consistent running flights as I can get to iron out my pattern. I don't want to be too tired Sunday morning when the beginners fly.

Thanks very much for taking the time to think about this, I appreciate your input.
Rusty

[john e. holliday]

After the Huntersville contest in which during the contest you may get advice.   I suggest you shorten your lines.   On my Primary Force that is running a stock LA .25 I time it at 5.0 second laps once I have it set to my liking for flying on 60 foot lines.  Prop is a Top Flite Power Point 10-4.   Of course right now the power package is on my Original Magician by Brodak and flying the same speed.   I too think you are flying too fast on 60 foot lines and over controlling which is one of the problems I have too.  Anyway go to Huntersville to have fun and learn.   Don't worry if you don't win as the learning is the winning for me.

[Tim Wescott]

I don't believe in making big changes right before a contest, so just about everything I say here is for afters, or maybe for flight #2 if you're really happy with flight #1.  The reason is that -- when you're a beginner at least -- you can make a big change for the better, but then you have to adjust for it, and that can take some flights to do.

You should be able to do far slower lap times on that length of line, at least if your speed is consistent.

You still haven't said what motor it is?

I've never had success without muffler pressure on my LA 25 or FP 20 -- the muffler pressure seems to add some consistency and regulation.  I know there are some motors where this is not felt to be the case, which is why I'm asking what the motor is.  I think running muffler pressure to the uniflow vent would be a mild enough change if you have a decent first flight.  You'll need to crank the needle in a considerable amount with the change, as the muffler pressure will be helping things along.

If it's an LA 25 or FP 2x, I'd suggest (after the contest) that you take out the head shim, and try adjusting the power by putting layers of nylon pantyhose over the venturi.  If you don't just steal an old pair from your wife, be sure to ask the saleslady if she thinks they'll make you look sexy.

I've had much better success with clunk tanks, particularly with the little OS motors.  The Hayes 3 ounce clunk is pretty much the recommended tank.  If you can't mount it behind the engine, mount it on the inboard side -- you'll get more head, you'll have plenty of room to mount it, and you'll be able to see how much fuel you have left as you fly.

And finally, for this winter, if you have the bux in your budget, buy a Sig Skyray kit.  It should fly lots better than the Shoestring.  With a two-wheel landing gear it's pretty much a "fly stunt out of the box".  It won't start holding you back until you're about halfway through Intermediate, and there's folks who've push much farther with them.  Brett Buck will tell you to build two more, with balsa ribs, off of the plans so that if you crash you can just go right on flying -- I never did, but when I was at that stage I never had time for more than two or three flights on any given day, so I never lost much if I crashed.

[Brett Buck]

After the Huntersville contest in which during the contest you may get advice.   I suggest you shorten your lines.   On my Primary Force that is running a stock LA .25 I time it at 5.0 second laps once I have it set to my liking for flying on 60 foot lines.  Prop is a Top Flite Power Point 10-4.   Of course right now the power package is on my Original Magician by Brodak and flying the same speed.   I too think you are flying too fast on 60 foot lines and over controlling which is one of the problems I have too.  Anyway go to Huntersville to have fun and learn.   Don't worry if you don't win as the learning is the winning for me.

    The over-controlling part is probably right - that's why you practice, and why we have beginner class. Unfortunately it's liable to get worse under the nerves of the contest. Again that's part of the process, everybody else has the same problem, and the only way to really learn to deal with it is to learn to deal with it. 

  But if line tension is an issue, shortening the lines and flying slower will probably make it worse. The only way it might help is if the tip weight is inadequate and the lighter lines would make it roll in less. The solution to that is to add tip weight. Otherwise slower on shorter lines will reduce the line tension. And when the engine is fixed the lap times will be supersonic on 58 or so foot lines. 60 feet of line is marginally too short for any of these sorts of models with these type engines.

   Evaluating, it appears that the fuel flow problem is leading to setting the engine *far* too slow just to keep it running on insides, which leads to line tension problems. The engine issue is preventing dialing up the speed to maybe 4.5-4.6 on 60' which will surely provide abundant tension unless something else is terribly wrong, too.

    Definitely try muffler pressure, but I would gut the entire fuel system, put in a Sullivan SS-4 clunk tank flat up against the fuselage, set up with the vent in the inner top corner, overflow to the very top (plugged for flight) and the clunk as it shows (making sure it will freely move up and down). Muffler pressure to the vent. Put everything else back to stock configuration, use something like Powermaster 10/18 RC Sport Fuel or something with similar relatively low oil content and a fair bit of synthetic. Plumbing orientation/runs are not very important, just hook it up as simply as possible.

    This example is exactly what I mean when I bleat on endlessly about getting the engine run right. Fix that and everything gets much easier.

    Brett

     

[Tim Wescott]

To expand on what Brett says:

Whether you decide to go with the Hayes or the Sullivan tank, make sure that the clunk can travel to both outside corners of the tank when you tilt it.  At the very least, make sure that it goes most of the way up and down, and that it can hug the outside wall when you hold the tank outside-down.  Then make sure that it goes up and down evenly.

It's pretty easy to set up a tank so that the clunk is biased up or down, or to the inside, or whatever -- you need to fiddle with things a bit to make sure this doesn't happen.  On that Sulivan 4 ounce, you probably want to use the most flexible 'medium size' tubing you can find -- the thick-walled stuff is pretty stiff.

[RknRusty]

Tim, it's a Thunder Tiger Pro .25 ABN, much like an OS, and running with a small gutted muffler. It has a Supertigre sprinkler type venturi & spraybar. Any changes I make will be minor and in practice, probably not between contest flights. I can fly it like it is now. If minor quick changes make it better that'll be good, but I can live with it. The 10 day forecast is for 5 MPH wind and 69 on Sunday which, if it comes true, is perfect for me.

When the engine sputters out in loops I think it's always my fault when I turn too tightly, and I'm determined to get over that. I did fly one full pattern on Thursday widening things out and had no sputters with the same needle setting and launch RPM as you all have watched. Those momentary losses of thrust make my bad turns worse, as can be seen in my video. I'll probably get in a couple of flights this Tuesday or Thursday and if I improve as much then as I did this week, I'll be flying pretty nice for a beginner. My confidence is improving.

A contestant who will be there next weekend contacted me and wants to give me a Skyray and another one he described as one of Watt Moore's designs with a .35. I met Watt at the 1/2A Fun Fly. So I might be set for future contests without building a new one this Winter. I was planning to build either a Skyray on Brett's advice, or a Flite Streak because I love them and want one. They're my favorite planes in my Baby fleet.

Rusty the novice

[Tim Wescott]

I fully understand not wanting to make big changes right before a contest.

Having said that, adding tip weight per Brett's advise is very safe.  Its just about guaranteed to add line tension, and the worst it'll do is make your square maneuvers look less than superbly graceful.  If you're like most beginners those moves already look like crap -- so you're not losing much, and you're gaining a lot of line tension.

I've kind of decided that personally, I'm always going to start a new ship out on too much tip weight, then as I get it turning evenly inside and outside, and get the leadouts right and all that, I'll remove tip weight to make the corners nicer.

[Brett Buck]

Tim, it's a Thunder Tiger Pro .25 ABN, much like an OS, and running with a small gutted muffler. It has a Supertigre sprinkler type venturi & spraybar. Any changes I make will be minor and in practice, probably not between contest flights. I can fly it like it is now. If minor quick changes make it better that'll be good, but I can live with it. The 10 day forecast is for 5 MPH wind and 69 on Sunday which, if it comes true, is perfect for me.

When the engine sputters out in loops I think it's always my fault when I turn too tightly, and I'm determined to get over that.

  My point was that is should *never ever* do anything funny regardless of the tightness of the corners.

   Do as much or as little as you feel comfortable with, but  I urge you to at least put in sufficient tip weight, 1/4 ounce at a time, until the airplane is at least safe in all the maneuvers regardless of the conditions. This is hard-worn knowledge from hundreds of contests over the years, it hard enough to fly at your best, but when you are trying to outthink the equipment you compound your problems.

    I also strongly suggest you seek out someone with more experience to help you troubleshoot the thing at the contest. Most people have A LOT of free time at these contests if they aren't also judging, and they will be happy to help.

    Brett

[RknRusty]

Point taken, Brett.
When I open it up to put fresh film on the wings, I'm putting in premium quality leadouts and will add 1/4oz to the outboard tip. I'll make it accessible so I can adjust the weight if necessary.

Rusty

[Tim Wescott]

If you feel pressed for time just tape weights on with shipping tape.  It's ugly, but it works.

[Brett Buck]

If you feel pressed for time just tape weights on with shipping tape.  It's ugly, but it works.

  Here is the 2006 NATs winning airplane, as was at the 2006 NATs. Modeler is a noted hack but this was 30 seconds at the field. Works on wingtips, too. Clean it up with solvent, let dry, stick it down.

     Brett

   

[RknRusty]

Here's a question, which filter is it that y'all call a "crap trap?" This is the one I use, made by Dubro:

[Will Davis]

Rusty,

This's the crap trap, if you need one I will have extra at Huntersville

[RknRusty]

I don't know if I need one or not. I don't think I have crap in my fuel, and after filling, I backwash the filter I just pumped fresh fuel through into the tank, by sucking a small amount of fuel back out of it. And after a day of flying I flush it in both directions. I'm curious because I've seen the crap trap recommended often around here.

[Steve Helmick]

Rusty...use the CrapTrap! See if it makes a difference or not...in the long haul, it will be a plus. I gotta add...big filter screen area is the way to go...the double domed screens in the CrapTrap is a good design. Be sure to put it in with the fine screen toward the NV.  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

I don't know if I need one or not. I don't think I have crap in my fuel, and after filling, I backwash the filter I just pumped fresh fuel through into the tank, by sucking a small amount of fuel back out of it. And after a day of flying I flush it in both directions. I'm curious because I've seen the crap trap recommended often around here.

I'm not sure what you're doing but -- don't fill though the filter.  If it catches anything it'll be on the wrong side.

[Brett Buck]

I don't know if I need one or not. I don't think I have crap in my fuel, and after filling, I backwash the filter I just pumped fresh fuel through into the tank, by sucking a small amount of fuel back out of it. And after a day of flying I flush it in both directions. I'm curious because I've seen the crap trap recommended often around here.

    Unless you are doing something silly, it's probably not systemically contaminated, but it only takes one bit of crud to mess up a flight. Everybody is right, don't fill through the fuel pickup line. At the very least it makes the fuel line more likely to come off in flight. Silicone tubing likes to weld itself to brass or copper fittings if you don't disturb it, and you want to take advantage of that. Fill through the vent, until fuel comes out the overflow, and then plug the overflow tube afterwards.

    Your filter is fine, probably, and it's certainly not a likely cause of your engine run issue as shown in the video.

     Brett

[Steve Fitton]

Find Dan Banjock at Huntersville on Friday morning.  He is a genius at getting a motor run.

I tried the Thunder Tigre .25 in a flightstreak sized plane for my son, and it went waaaay too fast on the apc 9x4 and screwed him into the ground.  I didn't try to tune the powertrain further because I had plenty of FP-25s to use instead.  At first glance, for me at least, the TT25 seems much more aggressive and powerful than the FP/LA.

[RknRusty]

Find Dan Banjock at Huntersville on Friday morning.  He is a genius at getting a motor run.

I tried the Thunder Tigre .25 in a flightstreak sized plane for my son, and it went waaaay too fast on the apc 9x4 and screwed him into the ground.  I didn't try to tune the powertrain further because I had plenty of FP-25s to use instead.  At first glance, for me at least, the TT25 seems much more aggressive and powerful than the FP/LA.

Yeah, Steve, that about sums it up. The GP might be a little slower than the Pro, but any engine that hauls it around at 1/2A speeds is definitely too aggressive. If it was any earlier in the game, I'd put my 1958 Fox stunt .35 on it. And I'm building a fun flyer that the .25 might do better on, a Sterling Yak-9 kit that's made out of wood that looks like they found in a dumpster behind a baseball bat factory. You could beat somebody to death with the LE sticks out of that kit.

Guys, everyone, thanks so much for your patience, ideas, and suggestions. I'll use what I can between now and next Sunday and let you know how I do. If I can get someone to work my camera, I'll post one last video of my Shoestring contest flight before I move on to whatever I graduate to. Oh, and Dan Banjock might find me before I find him. I've never met him but he's coming with someone I do know and respect and plan to hook up with. While I'm there, I'm going to try my hand with one of Mike Londke's combat screamers too. Can't wait for that.

And if I'm really happy about my Tuesday practice, I'm sure I won't be able to resist posting back and telling you how great I did.

Crusty Rusty

[Ward Van Duzer]

Note that Brett states that your filter is OK, (probably ?). Despite the praises of these I have found that Crap Traps will leak air around the tubing. I have replaced filters for two flyers (one a Jr. Champion) and cured their ails. Any tiny air leak will drive you nuts! Change your filter now...

Ward-O

[john e. holliday]

Well yesterday and last week my OS 40 started giving me fits.  Would start and then quit before I got to the handle.  Yesterday I finally changed to a Fox Idle Bar and got a half way decent run.   Then I decided the APC 11-5 club was too much and found a Top Flite 10-6 Power Point.   What a difference.   Have a slight warp in the plane that I need to correct  before attempting a full pattern.   Also the Fox .25 is still breaking in.

[Brett Buck]

Note that Brett states that your filter is OK, (probably ?). Despite the praises of these I have found that Crap Traps will leak air around the tubing. I have replaced filters for two flyers (one a Jr. Champion) and cured their ails. Any tiny air leak will drive you nuts! Change your filter now...

  Leaks in Crap Traps are very rare, we have found 2 cases over the time they are available. You can screen for it, they leak only when the end of the clear tube gets "tucked under" when they insert the end fittings.

    Brett