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Author Topic: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.  (Read 21199 times)

Offline Phil Krankowski

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I want a plane capable of flying the full pattern.  I would like to stay with a smaller engine like the OS25LA-S, but I am not against going with a bigger engine.  I don't own an engine for this purpose yet.  (Looking for a good, used, "value priced" engine if possible)

I have a Super Ringmaster with a new Fox 35 stunt on it.  I have not yet fully broke in the engine, and it is... cantankerous.  (1 qt on the bench, and a couple tankful through it on the plane, 2 flights of very inconsistent run.  I need to learn more too.)  I understand this plane won't do pattern very well with any engine.  I also suspect this plane is too heavy since it is an old plane I scored and repaired (film instead of dope and tissue)

I see the Flite Streak ARF (and understand there are problems with the fuse, but it sound like a good ship in general) however I don't hear about what it can DO, or how well it can do it.

I am also a person who enjoys building so kits are an option.  (scratch build too I would rather a kit)  I don't want to drop more than $100 on a kit though.  Scratch building the Flite Streak is still an option.

I haven't ruled out electric.

Phil

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 05:40:04 PM »
If you are OK with the Flite-Streak class, consider the Brodak kit of the Shark 402. With an FP-20 or 25 it flies a great pattern. In fact, it has twice on the Stunt 25 class here in NorCal. Great Pat Johnston design.
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 05:49:59 PM »
Handsome looking.

Phil

Offline proparc

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2013, 05:57:35 PM »
I couldn't do much better than Balsa Butchers suggestion but, there is always the Magician in kit form. An oldey-but-goody. y1
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2013, 05:59:12 PM »
Hi Phil,
The Flite Streak, built from a kit...is and excellent flying airplane with a OS LA 25 and would serve you just fine to learn the pattern.

However personally I prefer a larger airplane but still a profile simply because they are easier to repair.  My personal choice for anyone wanting to learn to fly the pattern right is the Brodak Cardinal with an OS LA46.  It's an Ideal combination because both the airplane and the engine are user friendly and easy to set up and trim.  The larger airplane with strong power is simply easier to fly under less than perfect conditions and will teach you more about flying stunt because of the flaps.  While it's just a little more complicated it teaches you all the lessons you need to learn about trimming and flying that are needed to compete.  If you learn with a flapless airplane then you will need to still learn to trim a "real" stunter when you move up.
I would get two of these kits and build one and while you're flying build the other one.  If you're serious you really need two similar flying airplanes then any mishap will not stop your progress for any appreciable time, and that's important.

It's also important that you have an experienced stunt buddy, expert level, to help you trim and learn to fly the right way to minimize learning mistakes.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of other opinions and a lot of them will be from sport fliers that don't think it's necessary to be so serious...well they're probably right if you're not serious.  If you are then do it this way.

I taught my brother to fly the pattern as a rank beginner, never having had a handle in his hand, to being promoted to the expert class in less than two years.  Certainly a lot of the credit for that goes to him and his never say die attitude,  but most of it was having good equipment and someone to teach trimming functions and what should be expected in response from the airplane.  He crashed several times but always had another airplane to back up the effort.

I guess it just depends a lot on how serious you are!

Randy Cuberly
Tucson AZ
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2013, 06:03:17 PM »
Brett Buck has pounded the drum for a Sig Skyray powered by an LA-25 (actually he started out advocating the FP-20, but you can't get that new anymore, so now he's pushing the LA-25).

It worked well for me, once I finally started listening to him.  The LA-25 with a 10-4 prop is a trouble-free engine, the Skyray is an easy airframe to build and trim.  While a flapped airplane flies prettier, a non-flapped airplane has a lot fewer variables to contend with while trimming, and it's not as critical that you get all of them right.

One difference between the Skyray (or the Fright Streak) and that Shark 402 is the wing structure: when you bonk into the ground with a Skyray the covering bursts, a few ribs break, and you can be back in the air after an easy evening's work.  With a wing that has a sheet leading edge, when you bonk into the ground the outside (or both) wings break off right at the fuse, or the wood in the wing sheeting gets crushed, etc., and you've got a rebuild on your hands.

Brett says build three, and take all of them to the flying field -- that way when you crash one, you just grab another one and keep practicing.  I never seemed to have enough time for more than three flights a session (this went way up when I made myself a stooge), so just having one wasn't that much of an issue.

So: get a Skyray kit and build it.  Make templates of anything that's not on the plans.  Then build two more.

I'd make sure to put weight boxes on the outer tips, and make the leadouts adjustable -- it's nice to get that stuff all tweaked in, rather than trusting to the kit as built.  Other than that, build it quick and fly it like you stole it.
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2013, 06:42:11 PM »
Shark 402 w/ Brett Buck engine set-up actually flies better the the Skyray (I've flown 'em both) however the Skyray does go together quicker. Pays yur money and takes yur choice. 8)
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2013, 08:02:06 PM »
So, summing up with a OS25LA

Shark 402
Skyray
Flight streak kit or scratch (NOT ARF.)

Since I poked at Brodak's what about the Super Clown?

for the OS46LA
Cardinal (Brodak)

Other planes for the OS46LA?


For any
Tip weight box
Adjustable lead outs
Build 2 or 3 of the same aircraft.

I'm not super serious currently.  I want a good flying plane so I can build confidence and skill.  I fly 1/2a in my side yard, and just finished a Baby Flight Streak, haven't flown it yet.  I just learned there is a flying club near me, but they don't list CL and I missed the open house last month.  I have a Brodak stooge since I rarely have anyone who is even interested around. 

At least my neighbor understands, he flies RC out of his driveway.

Phil

Offline 55chevr

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2013, 08:07:57 PM »
A Sig Twister wouldn't be a bad choice ... builds quick and they fly well.


Joe
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2013, 09:11:11 PM »
I'm currently flying a Fancherized Twister; I like it but I think I need to move up to something with a real fuselage.

I wouldn't be surprised if that Shark flies better -- I was just looking at how well it'd repair!
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2013, 09:17:20 PM »
I see the Flite Streak ARF (and understand there are problems with the fuse, but it sound like a good ship in general) however I don't hear about what it can DO, or how well it can do it.

   A full-size Flite Streak with a 25LA/APC 9-4 is an excellent combination that can easily do the full pattern. The Skyray 35 is very similar, and easier to build, but either one will do fine as a trainer. I also strongly suggest building more than one of them, so you aren't at a dead stop on the first crash.


    Brett

Offline RknRusty

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2013, 09:33:06 PM »
Hey Phil, now consider the source here... as you know, I'm a rank beginner. But I have recently asked the same questions. The Skyray has been recommended to me by experienced guys more than any other. The reasons I've been given are compelling to me. They are, that it has tough light ply ribs and the wings can sustain a lot of the punishment of training; it pairs up with the .25 schnurle engine I have; it's easy to build and repair; flies well; and having no flaps makes learning less complicated while you have so much to think about already. That last point is in no way meant to be argumentive with Randy's thoughts on flaps.
Rusty
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2013, 09:37:12 PM »
That last point is in no way meant to be argumentive with Randy's thoughts on flaps.

I hope this isn't arguing with Randy's thoughts on flaps...

If you build fast and have that expert flying buddy that Randy was talking about to set the ship up for you, then flaps are great.  If you don't have that expert flying buddy who's ready and able to trim your plane for you every time you crash, then flaps can be a detriment until you're flying well enough to know what the heck you're seeing when you fly the thing.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Curare

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2013, 09:56:48 PM »
This may sound like a stupid question( hey it's me, what else would you expect!?!) but what's the big deal with flaps?

My last 4 ships have had flaps and they didn't really cause me any issues (that I know of). Provided the control geometry is correct and if not, at the very least adjustable, and your flaps are straight, why wouldn't you?
Greg Kowalski
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2013, 12:10:19 AM »
This may sound like a stupid question( hey it's me, what else would you expect!?!) but what's the big deal with flaps?

My last 4 ships have had flaps and they didn't really cause me any issues (that I know of). Provided the control geometry is correct and if not, at the very least adjustable, and your flaps are straight, why wouldn't you?

Well you actually make some good points but... while I'm in favor of learning the pattern with flaps I admit they do add another dimension to trimming.  That dimension is both good and bad from the standpoint of a beginner. 
If flaps are not properly aligned with the elevator and thrust line they can cause instability and tracking problems and uneven turn rates between inside and outside maneuvers.  They add a dimension to lateral stability also...as in wing up or wing down.  They should have hard points at the horn connectors so they can be twisted if necessary to correct for wing warps or misalignment of flaps to each other.
Actually this can be a good thing because if you don't have flaps and you have even a slight warp in the wing it's more difficult to correct, requiring tabs or wedge devices to be attached to the wing I'm sure you've seen these sprouting from the wings of non-flapped airplanes.  A slight twisting of the flaps is much easier and actually more effective.
The best thing about using flaps however is that they make for a faster learning curve because you get used to the response and trimming factors from the beginning and don't have to re-learn things as you progress...uuhhhh well not as many things anyway.

When you do decide to go to a larger, probably heavier, built up airplane the flaps are not just an option but really a necessity to achieve the corner and turn rates needed to be competitive...If you start learning with them from the beginning it'll just be old hat when you move up.

However if you're not really serious about competition, and just want to learn the pattern for sport flying then the Skyray/LA25 or Flite Streak/LA25 is the least expensive good way to go.  A Fancherized Twister mentioned earlier can be a good option also...personally I detest the way stock twisters fly, and would never recommend one in stock form for a stunt trainer and boy are they Ugly.  LL~ LL~

Personally, if you want a flapless really good flying stunter and don't mind scratch building the Fancher "Doctor" is the best there is.  I think the plans are available from PAMPA.  An LA46 is also a great match for that also.

This also is not meant to be an argument with any of the previous suggestions as they were all good in my opinion...I just wanted to explain the argument for flaps a bit further.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2013, 12:38:03 AM »
Since we're making comparisons, I'm just curious. My Shoestring, unflapped, is the only larger than 1/2A plane I've ever flown, so I have nothing to compare it to. For me, it's very easy to control and aside from my low skill set it's pretty pleasant, turns what I think are really tight corners, and is very cooperative to put it through the paces. So my question to you guys that know so much about different planes, how would you say the SS stacks up as an unflapped beginner plane compared to some of the ones we're talking about here?

My friend wants me to fly his Ukey. He says it's an easy one to fly and pretty much indestructible.
Rusty
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2013, 12:53:55 AM »
Since we're making comparisons, I'm just curious. My Shoestring, unflapped, is the only larger than 1/2A plane I've ever flown, so I have nothing to compare it to. For me, it's very easy to control and aside from my low skill set it's pretty pleasant, turns what I think are really tight corners, and is very cooperative to put it through the paces. So my question to you guys that know so much about different planes, how would you say the SS stacks up as an unflapped beginner plane compared to some of the ones we're talking about here?

  No offense, but it is not very good compared to a Flite Streak or Skyray (or UKEY or the other slow-combatty-type airplanes). It's more on the Ringmaster end of the scale.

   Brett

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2013, 06:18:06 AM »
So, summing up with a OS25LA

Shark 402
Skyray
Flight streak kit or scratch (NOT ARF.)

Since I poked at Brodak's what about the Super Clown?

for the OS46LA
Cardinal (Brodak)

Other planes for the OS46LA?


For any
Tip weight box
Adjustable lead outs
Build 2 or 3 of the same aircraft.

I'm not super serious currently.  I want a good flying plane so I can build confidence and skill.  I fly 1/2a in my side yard, and just finished a Baby Flight Streak, haven't flown it yet.  I just learned there is a flying club near me, but they don't list CL and I missed the open house last month.  I have a Brodak stooge since I rarely have anyone who is even interested around.  

At least my neighbor understands, he flies RC out of his driveway.

Phil
My own learning experience pre-dates the Skyray and LA engines so I may be biased but I still lean toward the older learning path.  You went through a couple Ringmasters or other flapless type airplanes for basic, learning round loops and inverted.  You then moved to a Magician (using the same .35 engine) with flaps to learn squares, triangles and the vertical maneuvers.  The flaps will give you the square corners but also the 'panic button turn' to get you out of trouble.  You mention the Super Clown.  Though I never before had one I think it might work pretty well.  In fact I just bought a kit of it.  It seems to me a good choice to 'manufacture' enmass as a training fleet for my grand kids.  The added work to put on flaps is well worth it once you are past the loops/inverted part of your learning. You ARE going to use flaps latter so might as well start using them early on.

Dave

It seems the OS .25 is being used as a direct replacement for the long stroke .35.  Not sure it's quite the same but works.  Plenty of .35s around (other than Fox). 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 06:56:12 AM by Dave_Trible »
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2013, 07:40:33 AM »
 No offense, but it is not very good compared to a Flite Streak or Skyray (or UKEY or the other slow-combatty-type airplanes). It's more on the Ringmaster end of the scale.

   Brett
No offense taken, I wasn't fishing for pleasing answers, I honestly wanted to know where it stacked up. Seeing as how I never hear talk of the SS here, I didn't expect much. I never expected to own it when the original owner/builder invited me to try flying a big plane one day, but dropped the handle and demolished it before I got a chance. I pieced the broken rear fuse and the rest of the rubble back together and was happy with the way it flew. On the other hand now that I'm finally getting to where I can fly scoreable beginner shapes, maybe when I move up to a real stunter, I'll be even more pleasantly surprised. A Skyray, or a Streak shaped Skyray, or a Streak is what I would like to build as its replacement. The old Yak-9 kit on my table now, another gift, looks like it'll serve as a fun flyer that will serve to grow my building skills as I graduate from 1/2A building.

Thanks for the reply Brett, I'm always glad when you chip in, and I still have a few years to go before I start getting all crotchety and thin skinned.  

Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
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Offline MarcusCordeiro

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2013, 10:03:16 AM »
How about a Pathfinder?? With the LA 46...
I've learned a lot flying a couple of ARF Pathfinders... love that ship...

Marcus
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2013, 10:29:22 AM »
for the OS46LA
Cardinal (Brodak)

Other planes for the OS46LA?

Slews of planes for the OS 46LA.  Go spelunking among the threads and you'll find that the LA 46 has gained a reputation for a very versatile engine.  My own small experience bears this out -- if you're willing to mess with the venturi size and/or fine tune it by piling on layers cut from ladies' nylon stockings, you can pretty much dial in your desired flight characteristics.

If you scratch build, a Fancherized Twister would be good -- it has the same easy to repair wing structure that I like in the Skyray and Fright Streak, only with flaps.  You may also want to consider Fancherizing a Sig Banshee.  Or look through the Flying Models back issues -- they've published some good 40-sized profiles.

I'd choose a profile, with a Skyray-like wing structure*, and no really fancy features that will make it hard to build or repair.  I'd also consider leaving off the flaps, for the reasons I gave -- but if you have an expert willing to tune your plane for you, consider leaving them on.

* That wing structure -- basically with no leading edge sheeting -- means that the wing structure itself has neither torsional strength nor shear strength in the fore-aft direction.  All of that sort of strength is supplied by the covering.  This, in turn, means two things: it has the tendency to survive crashes with easily repaired damage (assuming you have many rolls of covering in your shop), and the wings will be absolutely floppy in twist until you get the covering on.  So getting unwarped wings is entirely dependent on YOU and your covering iron.  With film coverings, I generally end up adjusting the twist of the wings on those things several times over the first month of the plane's life before they settle down and stay straight.

Once you lose your knighthood and can no longer claim the title "Sir Crashalot" then you really want to go to a wing with a D-tube structure.  Its lack of crash survivability won't matter, and if it's straight coming out of the wing jig you'll be happy with it's vastly reduced tendency to warp.
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2013, 10:40:24 AM »
How about a Pathfinder?? With the LA 46...
I've learned a lot flying a couple of ARF Pathfinders... love that ship...

Marcus
It's kind of like that 25 car garage I always wanted. But now at my advancing age, I've changed my mind and want a giant model shop and hangar with 25 planes, all ready to pick up and go at my slightest whim. Fly whichever one I'm in the mood for on a given day. Of course that would be right next to my own flying field covered with golf course grass. 8)
DON'T PANIC!
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while you're doing it!

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Offline Luiz Dutra

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2013, 11:11:55 AM »
Hole Shot is a super model without flaps to .25 engine!!!!

Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2013, 11:36:31 AM »
My oldest son and I both built the Bob Hunt Hole Shot. My son built it right off Bob's plans, what a good kid. I had to follow Bob's good friend Pete and put wing tips on mine, adding about five inches to the wing span. Here's a link to my thread with a picture.
  
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=32305.0

Don't look at the finish, I'm a hack at best.  The one Pete built was beautiful. It flies great, I don't  HB~>. Bob should tell the story, but I think this is the plane Robby practiced with and then moved up to Bob's RD-1 I believe it was called.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2013, 11:59:53 AM »

Thanks for the reply Brett, I'm always glad when you chip in, and I still have a few years to go before I start getting all crotchety and thin skinned.

   I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!

   While I think that you can do a lot better than a Shoestring, its' still better to be able to fly something than not. My recommendations are tediously repetitive and can be found in a search (multiple airplanes all ready to go, Skyray 35 build from balsa instead of plywood, and a 20/25FP or 25LA with a 9-4 APC - and a big bottle of Hot Stuff). Trimmed as indicated it is still as good as anything like it, simple to build and trim properly, and capable of flying good patterns easily in almost any conditions (and I assure you I have plumbed the depths of bad conditions with it!).
 
    But almost anything like the Flite Streak, etc, has similar characteristics, and is capable of taking you well into Advanced class competition. There's still a lot of building/trimming/flying to be learned but there's no reason to struggle with something with limited performance.

     Brett

Offline Curare

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2013, 04:32:42 PM »
Well you actually make some good points but... while I'm in favor of learning the pattern with flaps I admit they do add another dimension to trimming.  That dimension is both good and bad from the standpoint of a beginner.  
If flaps are not properly aligned with the elevator and thrust line they can cause instability and tracking problems and uneven turn rates between inside and outside maneuvers.  They add a dimension to lateral stability also...as in wing up or wing down.  They should have hard points at the horn connectors so they can be twisted if necessary to correct for wing warps or misalignment of flaps to each other.
Actually this can be a good thing because if you don't have flaps and you have even a slight warp in the wing it's more difficult to correct, requiring tabs or wedge devices to be attached to the wing I'm sure you've seen these sprouting from the wings of non-flapped airplanes.  A slight twisting of the flaps is much easier and actually more effective.
The best thing about using flaps however is that they make for a faster learning curve because you get used to the response and trimming factors from the beginning and don't have to re-learn things as you progress...uuhhhh well not as many things anyway.

When you do decide to go to a larger, probably heavier, built up airplane the flaps are not just an option but really a necessity to achieve the corner and turn rates needed to be competitive...If you start learning with them from the beginning it'll just be old hat when you move up.

However if you're not really serious about competition, and just want to learn the pattern for sport flying then the Skyray/LA25 or Flite Streak/LA25 is the least expensive good way to go.  A Fancherized Twister mentioned earlier can be a good option also...personally I detest the way stock twisters fly, and would never recommend one in stock form for a stunt trainer and boy are they Ugly.  LL~ LL~




Personally, if you want a flapless really good flying stunter and don't mind scratch building the Fancher "Doctor" is the best there is.  I think the plans are available from PAMPA.  An LA46 is also a great match for that also.

This also is not meant to be an argument with any of the previous suggestions as they were all good in my opinion...I just wanted to explain the argument for flaps a bit further.

Randy Cuberly


Yeah, I hear you all counts there. My latest dog has lucky boxes everywhere, adjustable everything that I can think of, and hopefully I'll get this one sorted before I deck it. One thing that's becoming apparent to me in precision aerobatics be it controlled by a box, or on strings is that the aircraft are nothing but an accumulation of details!


edited as reply and quote were all mixed up!
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 09:29:49 PM by Curare »
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2013, 06:34:20 PM »
This has turned into a chewy thread.  Even the dog has lucky boxes!

I think I will think about this for a while, and reread all this advice (and search as indicated)

I was never impressed with Ringmasters, even though they are fun to fly.  I see them as a step above a slab wing trainer, but not really a stunt ship.  All the same I have a super, Jr, baby, baby PT bipe...Lots of fun.

Sir Crashalot of the round circle...yea.  I can even crash below grade with 1/2a in the side lot since the circle has a steep hill on 1/3 of it.

Phil


Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2013, 06:48:49 PM »
This has turned into a chewy thread.  Even the dog has lucky boxes!

I think I will think about this for a while, and reread all this advice (and search as indicated)

I was never impressed with Ringmasters, even though they are fun to fly.  I see them as a step above a slab wing trainer, but not really a stunt ship.  All the same I have a super, Jr, baby, baby PT bipe...Lots of fun.

Sir Crashalot of the round circle...yea.  I can even crash below grade with 1/2a in the side lot since the circle has a steep hill on 1/3 of it.

Phil



Well Ringmasters are legends and they can be made to fly a decent pattern...but probably not by a beginner.  
Anyone who thinks a Ringmaster can't fly a good pattern hasn't seen David Fitzgerald fly his with a Veco 19 (540+ pattern at VSC many years ago in Classic).
Yeah I know David could probably fly a pretty good pattern with anything...I guess that's what being a real Champion means.
I do agree that they are probably not the best stunt trainer but I do have to admit that's what I learned the pattern on...'course that was in 1954.   y1 LL~
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2013, 07:12:14 PM »
Hi Phil;
    There are really more than a dozen airplanes that will fit your requirements. I would even suggest the 1/2A Skyray, since you have  and fly 1/2A stuff, and use it to learn the basic manuevers. Won't do the whole pattern on one tank but the little booger is capable of at least the entire beginner pattern, and I have done the rest with it a few at a time. That is all you want the model to do, is be a teaching tool. Cheap, easy to fly and repairable. If you can do ANY of the manuevers with a 1/2A Skyray, you can do them with ANY airplane that you may build and it will be easier. Once you are confident with the small model, move up. No stress from crashing expensive airplanes, because you ARE gonna crash some. That is what I did with my son Sean, and it can work for any body.
    If that doesn't trip your trigger, pick one of the suggested models, and let cost and eye appeal be your guide. Do what pleases you, because that is what the hobby is all about. But keep in mind the advice about multiple models once you get to a point where things are looking consistant and your confidence increases. Multiple models of the same design helps with consistancy, and you want to strive for that all along the way. There is a guy here in St. Louis that used a single SIG Twister to go all the way from beginner to expert, and I'm talking about putting a hurt on guys at contests that were flying piped airplanes! He just practiced a lot, and wore out three engines along the way, and knew the trim of the airplane inside and out. You could do the same with any of the designs and kits mentioned.
   You will develope a set of likes and dislikes to certain things along the way, and develope a sense of how you like an airplane to perform. Keep an open mind about everything. Once you get to that level and you understand how you got there, you can pick a design and make it fly like you like. Most of my airplanes are all different sizes and such, but the controls in them are all pretty similar, so there isn't a big change in going from one to another at a contest.
    Once you get to a level of proficientcy that you feel confident in trying contests, I whole heartedly recommend that you compete. That is where you really learn. If you don't feel like competing, at least go and watch and ask questions. You can observe a lot just by watching, as Yogi Berra says! y1 y1
    When you have the whole pattern down, and understand the ins and outs of trimming an airplane, come back to that lowly Ringmaster, and try it again. It can be made to fly quite well, and I have seen guys get pretty good scores in classic contests with them, and even in intermediate level contests. You just don't want to have to try and get one to fly that good at the beginning of the learning process! It has it's limitations and you just have to work with them and around them.
     All of this won't happen in one summer either, depending on your own natural ability, and there are some guys out there that are born with it. Another friend here took only three years to go from learing how to start and set the needle valve on a Fox .35, to flying in the Expert class and placing second or third at The Vintage Stunt Championships in Tucson against some of the top guys in the country. Flying stunt is one event where what you get out of it is in direct proportion to what you put into it.
    Good luck, have fun and enjoy the trip.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Joseph Lijoi

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2013, 05:13:16 PM »
Here is a video of what the ARF Flite Streak can do:



The Aromaniacs site is excellent.

Keep in mind that it is not the plane that does the pattern but it is the pilot.  The LA 25 doesn’t vibrate much and the ARF Streak nose will probably last as long as the whole plane will, depending on your skills. 
Dan is right.  Use your ½ A’s as much as you can to do inside and outside loops and inverted flight.  The ½ A Skyray is an excellent airplane, keep it light with a clear dope finish.  The old Top Flite Junior Aces were very good built up ½ A’s

The fuse on the ARF Streak is just as stiff as solid balsa but may be less repairable. The time you saved not building allows you to have 2 backup ships.  The cost is the same as a kit, let alone covering etc.
The nose is flimsy.  Drill the motor holes out and plug with ¼ hardwood dowel, then re-drill the engine mounting holes.  You can add 1/16-1/8 plywood triplers as well.  Make a new 3/32 pushrod and use a longer control horn with the middle or inner hole to slow the controls down some.  Make a ¼ hardwood dowel and 1/16 wire loop and put it in the solid piece at the end of the fuse for your stooge.   The Brodak 38 Special landing gear works really well or make you own.  2 ¼ super light wheels.

Stay away from the Fox 35!   

Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2013, 06:00:57 PM »
Nice video.  That's what I want.  Squares, 8's, cloverleaf...

Inverted is relatively easy, insides and outsides are trimming...although I am not "flying" my loops yet, I just bang the controls to the limit still.  1/2A means I walk across the driveway on any day with an hour of free time and get a few flights in. 


Stay away from the Fox 35!   


No.  Classic plane:classic engine.  I do like cantankerous machines, rather have an old car most of the time.  There is something to be said for starting right, and right away instead of p*ssing about for 20 minutes to get it started.  I'll probably keep the Fox 35 on fun flying and classic craft.  I do want something easier most of the time.

Phil

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2013, 06:11:52 PM »
Inverted is relatively easy, insides and outsides are trimming...although I am not "flying" my loops yet, I just bang the controls to the limit still.  1/2A means I walk across the driveway on any day with an hour of free time and get a few flights in. 

   Hi Phil;
      "Just banging the controls to the limit" is what you don't want to do. It just stalls the model and slows it down. Some guys may poo poo the 1/2A idea, but if you got'em, might as well use 'em. Like I said, they are cheap, and available, and capable to just learn the basics on.
    I agree with you on the Fox .35. Some love 'em and some hate 'em, but like the 1/2As, if you got 'em, use 'em. Just make sure to feed them proper fuel, and don't over prop them.
     I have a ARF Flight Streak with an LA.25 on it and I like it a lot. It's one of my "grab it for a flight or two" models that I can rely on. Do a search on the list here for some minor improvements to the nose to help avoid crushing. Mine balances forward of the book indicated balance point, as it was too touch for me. With the LA.25 and a APC 10-4 prop, I get a very steady, reliable and repeatable run.
     Good luck and have fun,
     Dan McEntee
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2013, 06:56:49 PM »
     "Just banging the controls to the limit" is what you don't want to do. It just stalls the model and slows it down.

     I have a ARF Flight Streak with an LA.25 on it and I like it a lot. It's one of my "grab it for a flight or two" models that I can rely on. Do a search on the list here for some minor improvements to the nose to help avoid crushing. Mine balances forward of the book indicated balance point, as it was too touch for me. With the LA.25 and a APC 10-4 prop, I get a very steady, reliable and repeatable run.
  

   This is the reason for getting better-flying airplanes - they are much more forgiving of overcontrol and less-than-masterful flying. Something like a Ringmaster, Shoestring, Buster, etc, set up correctly, can be flown through respectable patterns, safely, by master pilots. But there is little margin for error, and you can easily stall the airplane (and crash), get into the "coffin corner" (and crash), or do something wrong, barely escape, and then not be able to recover and complete the maneuvers.

    The engine is also absolutely critical. The high rev/low pitch engines are so much more effective at recovering and maintaining airspeed  than  vintage 4-2 break engines that mistakes aren't catastrophic. Part of the game is "energy management" and with old engines chugging around at low revs have to be managed a lot more carefully, or they simply stop flying. Screw up with a Flite Streak and a 20FP, no problem, in a fraction of a second it has recovered and you move on.

   By the way, the same thing applies to big-time stunt planes. They are easier still to fly, the only drawback for a beginner is that they are very difficult to build and trim, and crashing them twice a weekend is just not a good development plan.

    Brett

Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2013, 08:19:15 PM »
  This is the reason for getting better-flying airplanes - they are much more forgiving of overcontrol and less-than-masterful flying. Something like a Ringmaster, Shoestring, Buster, etc, set up correctly, can be flown through respectable patterns, safely, by master pilots. But there is little margin for error, and you can easily stall the airplane (and crash), get into the "coffin corner" (and crash), or do something wrong, barely escape, and then not be able to recover and complete the maneuvers.

    The engine is also absolutely critical. The high rev/low pitch engines are so much more effective at recovering and maintaining airspeed  than  vintage 4-2 break engines that mistakes aren't catastrophic. Part of the game is "energy management" and with old engines chugging around at low revs have to be managed a lot more carefully, or they simply stop flying. Screw up with a Flite Streak and a 20FP, no problem, in a fraction of a second it has recovered and you move on.

   By the way, the same thing applies to big-time stunt planes. They are easier still to fly, the only drawback for a beginner is that they are very difficult to build and trim, and crashing them twice a weekend is just not a good development plan.

    Brett

I know "banging the controls" is not good flying, even though it looks it to some. 

I feel the stalls happen on certain planes (but not all planes).  My coroplast wing has pin hinges instead of a cut flute, the "baby" stunt bee on it (ported out and as powerful as a BW, but with only 10 laps in it) lets me know when I am over-controlling because it won't turn with large control movements!  With the cut flute it would only do insides and trim down, no outsides.  It will inside, outside, and inverted... (haven't tried squares yet) ...as long as I am FLYING the maneuver. 

What was very interesting is I cut the flutes off the new elevator after converting it and found that a slightly smaller elevator (1 flute less than original) turns much better than original size, or the 2 extra flutes more than original I set up as the replacement.  Not often a plane is trimmed by literally trimming the airplane with a box knife!

The reason for the change to pin hinges is a cut flute in coroplast will barely give up and almost no down for winter flying.  (Wrap the glow head with some yarn between the fins or it won't stay running, if even start, in freezing weather)

Phil

Offline Joseph Lijoi

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2013, 12:53:09 PM »
 
No.  Classic plane:classic engine.  I do like cantankerous machines, rather have an old car most of the time.  There is something to be said for starting right, and right away instead of p*ssing about for 20 minutes to get it started.  I'll probably keep the Fox 35 on fun flying and classic craft.  I do want something easier most of the time.

Phil

Ok Phil thats cool.  Some people enjoy that aspect of the hobby and having fun is what its all about anyway, so go for it.  Personally I have found that getting Foxes to run on profiles is a hobby in itself.

Learning to really fly is fun but can be risky.  That is why I am a fan of the tweaked (fixing the waek points and making sure it is straight) ARF.  An ARF Nobler with an LA46 or LA25 would be easier to fly than the Flte Streak.

The Super Clown is like a Ringmaster with flaps.  The Shark 402 is very nice kit.  It has adjustable leadouts and a tip weight box.  Nice looking too. The structure of the wing is balsa and well designed for monokote.  It has built up and carved wing tips and will take longer to build than the Skyray.  The 402 is similar to the Flite Streak but it has a larger (mostly elevator) tail, 1/2 inch longer tail moment, slow controls, and a slightly thicker wing.

The Skyray is super easy and quick to build and probably will not take much more time to build than a tweaked ARF.  The Flite Streak, Shark 402 and Skyray are all known to be good flyers.



Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2013, 06:16:50 PM »
Yes, the Fox 35 can be a hobby all by itself.  

I seem to be going with the OS 20 FP, pulled the trigger on an ebay deal a few minutes ago, RC version though. From what I have looked up the venturi is the same as the 25LA, so easy to get.  

Phil

Make that I have TWO (2) OS 20 FP on the way...however both are RC versions.
Phil
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 07:40:50 PM by Phil Krankowski »

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2013, 07:30:37 AM »
Jim Lee should jump in here about the quick build of a SkyRay.  I think he said it was two days from opening the box to flying.  Also it is still flying.
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2013, 02:29:33 PM »
Specific questions about converting the OS 20 FP.  I do not yet have them in my possession, and I don't know what muffler is on one from the classifieds here, but the other has an 842 muffler.  Does this muffler work for the "pipe" effect or is it ONLY the 2030 muffler?

The above question has been asked and *NOT* answered in the threads I have found.

I see there is a "recipe" with part numbers for converting to CL. 

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=490.msg2836#msg2836

If I need a muffler I need a muffler.  Maybe my neighbor will trade for the mufflers on his RC transport...those are 25LA's...

Phil

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2013, 04:10:58 PM »
Somewhere buried in the threads here Brett Buck says that only the 2030 will do for that.  The distance from port to baffle is just right to make it a tuned pipe working on the 3rd harmonic.

The real point about the BBTU and the FP 20 that's kind of lost now that OS doesn't make the engine any more, is that you take it out of the box, CHANGE NOTHING, put the right prop on it and the right fuel in it and go fly.

FP 20's came in an iron-piston version and an ABC (or ABN) version.  To my knowledge, you don't want the iron piston version.  There's a way to tell them apart involving the way that "MAX" is spelled out on the cylinder, but I can't remember what it is...

Brett has tested recent-production LA 25's, and reports that the BBTU for the LA 25 is the same -- take it out of the box, change nothing, use an APC 9-4 and the right fuel, and go fly.  When I started flying the LA 25 the story (not from Brett) was to use the APC 10-4, which is what I use, and it seems to work OK.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2013, 04:15:34 PM »
(snip)
FP 20's came in an iron-piston version and an ABC (or ABN) version.  To my knowledge, you don't want the iron piston version.  There's a way to tell them apart involving the way that "MAX" is spelled out on the cylinder, but I can't remember what it is...
(snip)

The way to tell the iron piston/steel sleeve from the ABN deals with the bypass side of the engine.  On the iron piston there is a vertical "step" about 1/3 of the way back from the front of the bypass.  On the ABN, it is a smooth transition.

Fortunately, my 1st OS .20FP worked just like advertised and it was an iron piston engine.  Stock venturi, NVA, 2030 muffler, APC 9-4.  Needle set just back from peak.

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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2013, 10:56:36 PM »
I had a Skyray 35 with a .25LA that flew ok, but it was the Fancherized Twister that got me through learning to do the squares, triangles, square 8's and hourglass. Talent (lack of) may have had something to do with that.

It should seem slow. Part of that is the noise. An OS with the stock muffler will just sound slow. Electrics seem slower yet, but I am not going to be flying electrics in this life. Maybe next time around.  LL~ Steve
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2013, 11:30:39 PM »
I have heard the ABN version of the FP-20 was preferable but have had no problems with mine which I found out a few weeks ago is the iron piston version. Either version will work in the BB mode. 8)
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Offline Geoff Goodworth

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2013, 12:48:42 AM »
Phil, Brett says that the E-2030 muffler is the one to use. The OS Parts list says the E-2030 muffler is the stock item with the LA 25. If you can't trade one, Tower sells them.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2013, 12:55:04 AM »
Specific questions about converting the OS 20 FP.  I do not yet have them in my possession, and I don't know what muffler is on one from the classifieds here, but the other has an 842 muffler.  Does this muffler work for the "pipe" effect or is it ONLY the 2030 muffler?

The above question has been asked and *NOT* answered in the threads I have found.

I see there is a "recipe" with part numbers for converting to CL. 

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=490.msg2836#msg2836

If I need a muffler I need a muffler.  Maybe my neighbor will trade for the mufflers on his RC transport...those are 25LA's...

Phil

    I have answered - but the answer is "I don't know"!  All my experiments have been with the E2030. The 842 may work better, the same, or worse. I would try it as indicated, first, before chucking it.

    Brett

Offline dirty dan

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2013, 12:24:49 PM »
The E-2030 muffler is the one to use. And I have tried to make the other muffler (842?) work. It does not. Well, other than to muffle the engine.

Truth be told, the only exhaust system with which I have personal experience and that works as well as the E-2030 is a "real" pipe, that being a muffled version of the MACS aluminum pipe. In my view it works a little better even if those who see it sometimes make comments about lipstick on a pig. Still, I like the aluminum pipe for several reasons, one of which is the option of adjustability. Meaning the run can be made better or worse...

As to determining ABN 20FPs (and other models) from steelies I once got frustrated in trying to tell e-Bay sellers how to check for this. What ended up being the solution was to tell them to use a magnet held against the case.

Dan
 
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2013, 02:20:35 PM »
As to determining ABN 20FPs (and other models) from steelies I once got frustrated in trying to tell e-Bay sellers how to check for this. What ended up being the solution was to tell them to use a magnet held against the case.

Dan
 

So a magnet against the case will tell the difference between the liners?  I seem to have no attraction on the 3 engines with a magnet.
($20 snipe on ebay for the 3rd)  The 3 engines have the 842 muffler, and not the 2030 muffler.  All 3 are RC version.  2 have significantly better compression than the 3rd, but they all have reasonable compression.  The 3rd has more compression than the Cox .051 I was flying earlier today  (The baby flight steak turns very nicely, maiden flight).  All 3 cases/engines look identical. 

I took my Flight Streak digital plans to Office Depot yesterday, and the manager said she can't print them as they are 48 inch plans, and she only has 24 inch paper.  She is having their off-site printing handle it but it will take a week or so.

Phil


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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2013, 06:56:12 AM »
I have to conclude that using a magnet without dissassembly is inconclusive on determining the liner material.  I tested two engines I know have iron liners, my Fox 15, and my Fox stunt 35 with the magnet not sticking.  The spare piston/cylinder assembly for the Fox 15 sticks real good.  I am using a reasonably powerful donut magnet (the ceramic ones from Radio Shack) 

I will locate my tiny rare-earth magnet-on-a-stick and go in through the exhaust port, if it fits. 

Phil

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2013, 07:07:09 AM »
So a magnet against the case will tell the difference between the liners?  I seem to have no attraction on the 3 engines with a magnet.
($20 snipe on ebay for the 3rd)  The 3 engines have the 842 muffler, and not the 2030 muffler.  All 3 are RC version.  2 have significantly better compression than the 3rd, but they all have reasonable compression.  The 3rd has more compression than the Cox .051 I was flying earlier today  (The baby flight steak turns very nicely, maiden flight).  All 3 cases/engines look identical. 

I took my Flight Streak digital plans to Office Depot yesterday, and the manager said she can't print them as they are 48 inch plans, and she only has 24 inch paper.  She is having their off-site printing handle it but it will take a week or so.

Phil


Phil most any FedEx/Kinkos can do those plans on the spot.  I just pulled about 5 different sets off CDs there at 10 bucks a copy.....if you have one near you.

Dave
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2013, 07:20:49 AM »
Name tag magnets, gotta love them.  WAY more powerful than the donut magnet I used earlier.  Yes, this powerful little magnet sticks to the outside of the case quite well too.  It also fits in the exhaust, and is strong enough to draw the piston up some rotating the engine.

Turns out I have 3 iron FP 20's.

ABC piston/cylinder sets can be had for a mere $160 each.  I can almost buy 2 NEW 25LA-S's for one piston/cylinder set!

As for the plans they are ordered already through Office Depot, and I don't have a FedEx/Kinko's within an hour of me.  I have had other plans printed without problem locally, but they have been on 24x36 paper which is no problem locally.  These are on 36x48.

Phil

Offline Gordan Delaney

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Re: So what can a model do? Looking for a stunt ship for learning pattern.
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2013, 09:38:19 AM »
Pathfinder Profile with LA 46 or 40. great flying plane.

Gordy


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