SIG control line IS coming back!

[Brett Buck]

You guys should be able to just see if the bar code numbers match, if so, you should be same same.

   That's not always true. I got one can of lacquer thinner at the hardware store, and found it did a great job with K&B SuperPoxy, which is very fussy about thinner. Great, I can go get a bunch of it. Same can, same shelf, same part number, etc, 3 weeks later, tried it - curdled up immediately. The manufacturers are both changing things on a regular basis to get something mostly functional using the current least-expensive chemicals, and to play whack-a-mole with the California Air Resources Board and Bay Area Air Quality Management District, they ban one batch, they change it and sell it until the next thing gets banned. too.

    Brett

[Paul Wescott]

Kleen Strip (wmbarr.com) sells two (2) versions of Laquer Thinner, a Calif Compliant version, and one for everybody else.  When I originally learned this as a Calif native I chucked all of my lacquer thinner.  Then on my next trip to Las Vegas with the better half, I stopped at a store and picked up a few cans of the non-compliant stuff (Shhhh!).  It seems to be the real deal.  I would hope that the good stuff can be obtained in Oregon (North West Regionals contest trip?) and Arizona (VSC trip?) as well as Nevada.

Attached (I hope) are excerpts from the MSDS from both products, and some other info.  The Calif version only has two (2) ingredients.  The version for everybody else has a whole passel of ingredients.

[Jim Svitko]

About a month ago, I bought a gallon of Kleen Strip "green" lacquer thinner.  The artwork on the can is different than from what I usually saw before.  On the back, the usual warnings and such, in English and Spanish.

On the can, it says "19% renewable and biodegradable content.  HAPS free, contains less than 1% petroleum distillates." 

At the bottom, on the back, it says "Not for sale or use in California."  It also says "environmental claims on this product are in comparison to regular Kleen Strip lacquer thinner."  "Hazardous air pollutants as defined by the EPA."

It smells like the previous gallon I had.  I use it for cleaning brushes and spray gun and it works well enough for that.

[Dave Rigotti]

Does SIG sell Kleen Strip?

[Dave_Trible]

Does SIG sell Kleen Strip?

Maybe it should.   I've used it for years with all brands of dope.  Excellent stuff.   It's foolish to pay more when this does the job just as well as anything else.

Dave

Available at any Home Depot,  Lowes, Walmart  and Ace Hardware.  The California guys should run it from another state like moonshine....

[Dave Harmon]

     The differences in lacquer thinner has been covered several times before. I think it is a state to state thing. It started years ago when Windy said on one of his videos that he could not get DuPont 3608S thinner back when we were using that a lot. He could only get 3608W that did not work. I have mentioned before that is you go around and read the ingredients on the can you might see that all it says on it is "acetone" . I hit all the places around me like auto parts stores and hardware stores and that's what I found . When Home Depot started carrying Kleen Strip, I tried some of that and it worked OK for me. Look at the photo of the back of the can that Crist posted, it's got all sorts of stuff in it!! You might have to even think outside the box a bit and not look for lacquer thinner. I bought some thinner off a local FB Marketplace ad that just said "Brush Cleaner" and the can was printed in as much Spanish as English!! That made me think it might have come from one of the border states. They can get around some rules and regulations by NOT calling it lacquer thinner. I tried thinning a sample of clear 50/50 and it worked the same as Kleen Strip. I have seen the Kleen Strip in cans with different colors also. It's confusing but being vigilant and paying attention to labels is what you gotta do!!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Just for kicks....I scanned the QR code from the picture above and it takes you to the Kleen Strip site where the SDS .pdf sheets can be dwnloaded....I didn't but that's where they are.

[wwwarbird]

   That's not always true. I got one can of lacquer thinner at the hardware store, and found it did a great job with K&B SuperPoxy, which is very fussy about thinner. Great, I can go get a bunch of it. Same can, same shelf, same part number, etc, 3 weeks later, tried it - curdled up immediately. The manufacturers are both changing things on a regular basis to get something mostly functional using the current least-expensive chemicals, and to play whack-a-mole with the California Air Resources Board and Bay Area Air Quality Management District, they ban one batch, they change it and sell it until the next thing gets banned. too.

    Brett

 Yeah, I guess I should have figured that, politics, corporate games, and bean counters at their best. Hate to think any of them could ever leave anything alone, especially something that actually works.

[Brett Buck]

Yeah, I guess I should have figured that, politics, corporate games, and bean counters at their best. Hate to think any of them could ever leave anything alone, especially something that actually works.

   As everyone knows, the volatile organic compounds arising from a guy using 1/2 ounce of VOC-containing thinner to spray a model airplane once every 5 years is a critical environmental manner that, if stopped, will finally make the air perfectly clean. ]

    BTW, have you ever seen a "vapor recovery" gas nozzle? Mandatory in California.

   All of these things started with a completely valid goal and sensible and reasonable approaches. Just in my time in California, the air in LA on my trips there has gotten remarkably cleaner and heavy smog days in the Bay Area are now very rare. But once started, there is never a point where anyone says "problem solved" and dissolves the committee. Once you reach one goal, you just move the goalposts, ratchet up the regulation, lather, rinse, repeat.

     Brett

[RC Storick]

Just remember, if it's biodegradable, nontoxic, and environmentally safe, it doesn't work. You need to move if you plan to use it in any state that doesn't allow freedom.

[Dan McEntee]

  ]

    BTW, have you ever seen a "vapor recovery" gas nozzle? Mandatory in California.

   
     Brett

     We had the vapor recovery nozzles on gas pumps here for years. Made it a royal pain in the butt to fill a gas can. Then they went away , but I don't remember if they figured out that they weren't working or what happened, but they have been gone for a while now. Can't say that I missed them!!
   Type at you later,
   Dan  McEntee

[Jim Svitko]

I remember those vapor recovery nozzles.  Yes, they were a pain.  If you did not push hard enough to make firm contact, the pump would not work.  They might have been in Texas for a while, but I have not seen them in a long time.  The replacement is a circular flap.  I suppose it is supposed to be pressed against the filler opening but I see that device as nothing more than a splash shield.

[BillLee]

ChatGPT:

Vapor recovery nozzles, which were once common at gas stations, have largely disappeared due to advancements in vehicle emissions technology. These nozzles were originally required to capture gasoline vapors that would otherwise escape into the air while refueling, helping to reduce air pollution and smog-forming volatile organic compounds (VOCs).

However, starting in the late 1990s, automakers began equipping gasoline-powered vehicles with onboard refueling vapor recovery (ORVR) systems. These systems capture and recycle fuel vapors inside the vehicle’s fuel system, making the external vapor recovery nozzles redundant.

As more vehicles with ORVR systems hit the road, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) determined that the vapor recovery nozzles at gas stations were no longer necessary. In 2012, the EPA allowed states to phase out the requirement for Stage II vapor recovery systems, and most gas stations removed them in the following years. This change reduced maintenance costs for gas stations while still maintaining emissions control.

[Brett Buck]

ChatGPT:
As more vehicles with ORVR systems hit the road, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) determined that the vapor recovery nozzles at gas stations were no longer necessary. In 2012, the EPA allowed states to phase out the requirement for Stage II vapor recovery systems, and most gas stations removed them in the following years. This change reduced maintenance costs for gas stations while still maintaining emissions control.

    CARB did not get that memo.

    Brett

[Dan McEntee]

ChatGPT:

Vapor recovery nozzles, which were once common at gas stations, have largely disappeared due to advancements in vehicle emissions technology. These nozzles were originally required to capture gasoline vapors that would otherwise escape into the air while refueling, helping to reduce air pollution and smog-forming volatile organic compounds (VOCs).

However, starting in the late 1990s, automakers began equipping gasoline-powered vehicles with onboard refueling vapor recovery (ORVR) systems. These systems capture and recycle fuel vapors inside the vehicle’s fuel system, making the external vapor recovery nozzles redundant.

As more vehicles with ORVR systems hit the road, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) determined that the vapor recovery nozzles at gas stations were no longer necessary. In 2012, the EPA allowed states to phase out the requirement for Stage II vapor recovery systems, and most gas stations removed them in the following years. This change reduced maintenance costs for gas stations while still maintaining emissions control.

    The vehicle on board system does nothing unless the gas cap is properly in place. If the gas cap is not on correctly, that can trigger a "CHECK ENGINE" light with a certain ODB-II code. Otherwise, I still see vapor and fumes wafting out of the tank receptacle just like it always has. The rubber flap or disc can't really seal off or cover things, depending on the type of vehicle. But if it makes some people happy, I guess that's the main thing!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
   

[Brett Buck]

    The vehicle on board system does nothing unless the gas cap is properly in place. If the gas cap is not on correctly, that can trigger a "CHECK ENGINE" light with a certain ODB-II code. Otherwise, I still see vapor and fumes wafting out of the tank receptacle just like it always has. The rubber flap or disc can't really seal off or cover things, depending on the type of vehicle. But if it makes some people happy, I guess that's the main thing!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
   

   I think we might be talking about two different things, there is evaoprative controls (the infamous "carbon canister") that handles evaporation once the gas is in the tank, and the vapor recover gas nozzle, that sucks it up  back into the storage tank when you are fueling. This has the giant spring and cloth sheath over the metal gas nozzle, and sucks any vapor that comes back out of the filler neck.

      Brett

[Dan McEntee]

   I think we might be talking about two different things, there is evaoprative controls (the infamous "carbon canister") that handles evaporation once the gas is in the tank, and the vapor recover gas nozzle, that sucks it up  back into the storage tank when you are fueling. This has the giant spring and cloth sheath over the metal gas nozzle, and sucks any vapor that comes back out of the filler neck.

      Brett

    Yes, that's what I was referring to when I first answered your post yesterday. The ChatGPT response that Bill Lee posted mentions that the fuel pump recovery nozzles were "no longer necessary"  as more vehicles became equipped with the ORVR systems. One really doesn't have anything to do with the other, but the ChatGPT response sounds like a typical AI or even Government response that doesn't make sense !! The local/state Gas Stations Owners organization fought pretty hard against the pump nozzles at first here in Missouri , so maybe some of that effort helped get the removed. I think there were some other "operational issues" with them that caused some other incidents and accidents that helped it along.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

I can tell you from experience that having the purge canister for the fume capture system get clogged is a huge PIA since you basically cannot put fuel in the tank. Mine is clogged now and I am awaiting some extra cash to get it fixed.  It only lets me put in about .05gals per squeeze of the gas pump.  Gets better as the tank fills all the way up to .2gal @ squeeze at half full with 10 seconds between squeezes. 

Ken

[Jim Svitko]

If you want to hear a good one, I think this is it:

The older style BMW motorcycles, with carburetors, had to get some emissions controls installed in order to sell them in the U. S.  One of those emission controls was a vapor trapping system.  When the motorcycle was parked, and a rather hot day, fuel vapors from the tank were directed to the crankcase via a check valve.  Also, the tank would store some vapors in the upper portion of the tank, a separate compartment.  This made it impossible to completely fill the tank due to the way the tank was made.

When trying to start the engine on a hot day, all those vapors in the crankcase were then drawn into the airbox.  And some of the vapors trapped in the tank were also pulled into the airbox.  This made for an overly rich mixture that would not ignite.  Crank, crank a bit more, until those vapors were drawn thru the engine and out the exhaust.  Finally, the engine would start.  Or, you could crack the gas cap to let the vapors escape and then the engine would start normally.

So, those vapors, which the EPA mandated be trapped, eventually ended up in the atmosphere anyway, either thru the exhaust while the engine was being cranked, or when the gas cap was cracked.  But, there was a vapor trapping system and the EPA was satisfied.  They just did not know the the vapors ended up in the atmosphere anyway.

[BillLee]

This really is off topic, but interesting in any case.

Below is a schematic of the evaporative control system as I found on my 2004 F150. This schematic is showing the flow of air/fumes for the actual recovery.

What isn't shown is the flow when the tank is being filled. The fumes flow toward the evaporative canister, absorbed, and flows  out the "atmosphere" vent.

On my 2004 F150, that vent was routed up into an empty spot within a frame cross member between the rear wheels. The vent was attractive to mud dobbers which would eventually plug it with their mud nests. When plugged, just as Ken mentioned, filling the tank was VERY difficult, a small burst for each time squeezed the lever. Since the fumes couldn't get through/out the system, the pump senses back pressure and shuts off.

The first time I had that happen (mud dobbers in the vent pipe), I had it fixed at the local Ford dealer. They gave me the  picture of what they found, below. And which cost me a couple of hundred $s!

The second time it happened, I climbed underneath, found the vent and cleaned it myself.

[944_Jim]

Wow! From "SIG is back" to vapor recovery systems.

My 1971 Triumph TR6 has a charcoal canister. After 40-plus years it was discovered to be plugged-up while trying to figure out why the tank wasn't venting during operation.

I found out it can be disassembled, the gooey charcoal granules removed, a replacement screen for the soggy one that kept the charcoal out of the inlet/outlet hoses, and fresh aquarium charcoal poured in.

Now it breathes correctly and should work for another 40 years.

[Jim Svitko]

Yeah, the thread has drifted way off course.  But sometimes it is good to share some information and to marvel at the stupidity of government officials.  We laugh about it, but it is not amusing.

[Charles Foley]

I used SIG products since the late 60s as a young teenager. They had some really good world class people designing both RC and C/L products. With the passing of Mike Gretz a few years back SIG went down
hill. A year ago they promised a couple of RC kits to be brought back into the market. That never happened. Basically they are now nothing more than a reseller of Vietnamese made ARFs along with some hardware.  Most of their production equipment was auctioned off over a year ago when Rizzo moved the operation to Illinois. Heck, you can't even get fuel from them anymore. As far as new control line kits coming back I will believe it when I see it.

[Dave Rigotti]

Anyone buy the new Twister or Shoestring that is available "1st quarter" of the year?

I email Sig Mfg about every 6 months to ask when they plan to resume shipping CL balsa kits. Today, I received this response:

Hi Dave,

We are making the twister and shoestring by the end of the first quarter. Others will follow threw the year.

Thanks,

Sig

[Brett Buck]

You guys should be able to just see if the bar code numbers match, if so, you should be same same.

   In the case I described the bar codes, part #, etc, were identical.

   Brett

[Ken Culbertson]

I visited the SIG web site today.  The Twister is still listed at $89 but "Not in Stock".  It is not listed under "Control Line", you have to search for it.  That is an insane low price.  If they are shipping kits, someone has bought one.  Anybody know the new price?  I would also like to know what kind of wood they are shipping.

Ken

[Steve Helmick]

Back to drifting the thread...Washington state used to require emission tests. At first, they had you drive into the shop and shoved a probe up the exhaust (of your car or truck!). They may have had the drive tires on a roller dyno sort of setup, but that was LONG ago, and I may be mistaken. When all the new vehicles had multiple computers, they'd just plug into the OBD port and read what it said, and if it showed no codes, you got approved. NOW, and for about the last 5 years, there's no more testing required. My theory is that they put the burden on the repair shops to rat you out and those shops are forbiden to release your vehicle until the onboard computer says you can pass "GO" and pay $2000.

FWIW, before the computers, I put a Ford/Weber 1600cc carb on my wife's Mazda 808, and passed emissions every time...by running the tank down to about 1/8 tank and adding a gallon of shellac thinner from the hardware store. Where there's a will, there's a way. The Madza (sic) carb had about 1200 too many parts to even consider rebuilding it, and it never ran worth a crap even when brand new. Ran much better with the Fjord carb.  Steve

[John Park]

*Fancherized*, his name Terry G. "Ted" Fancher.

     Brett

   

We've got a few people over here who keep referring to the designer of the Nobler, Peacemaker, Flite Streak etc. as 'George Aldridge'!  Grrrr...