stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Dave Nyce on January 06, 2025, 02:41:02 PM
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I email Sig Mfg about every 6 months to ask when they plan to resume shipping CL balsa kits. Today, I received this response:
Hi Dave,
We are making the twister and shoestring by the end of the first quarter. Others will follow threw the year.
Thanks,
Sig
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Good to hear. I can't wait for the complaints on the price of them......
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I email Sig Mfg about every 6 months to ask when they plan to resume shipping CL balsa kits. Today, I received this response:
Hi Dave,
We are making the twister and shoestring by the end of the first quarter. Others will follow threw the year.
Thanks,
Sig
#^ The world is a better place when you can buy a Twister Kit.
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Oooooh…laser cut? Do we know?
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I sure don't know but I understood they sold all the equipment in Iowa when they closed. They probably will have to lazer cut it-likely have it done offshore l bet since the balsa operation is gone too. Hope the best for them.
Dave
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This is good news if it turns out to be true. I will definitely buy a kit to show them a little support.
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If the rumor comes to fruition every organized C/L club in the country should blow a little dust off the "kitty" and order at least one each of both the Twister and Shoestring kits. And, don't be asking for a club discount. Once received they can raffle them off at their next meeting or club event. y1
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I already have a Twister framed up by the late & great Gary Letsinger...that I need to finish up and fly while I can still walk. :! Steve
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Was it from a kit or scratch built?
I already have a Twister framed up by the late & great Gary Letsinger...that I need to finish up and fly while I can still walk. :! Steve
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Kit, but VERY well built. No tail feathers yet.
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Good!
Kit, but VERY well built. No tail feathers yet.
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If they are laser cutting wouldn't it be easy to re-design the Twister knowing what is known about Fancherizing and who flys these things. Making the same old plane? Come on guys, get smart. Should make a Fancherized version of the full fuselage Tornado. I would buy a couple of them.
MM :)
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If they are laser cutting wouldn't it be easy to re-design the Twister knowing what is known about Francherizing and who flys these things. Making the same old plane? Come on guys, get smart. Should make a Francherized version of the full fuselage Tornado. I would buy a couple of them.
MM :)
*Fancherized*, his name Terry G. "Ted" Fancher.
Brett
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*Fancherized*, his name Terry G. "Ted" Fancher.
Brett
Indeed. A Renton, WA native boy, too. y1 Steve
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If they are laser cutting wouldn't it be easy to re-design the Twister knowing what is known about Francherizing and who flys these things. Making the same old plane? Come on guys, get smart. Should make a Francherized version of the full fuselage Tornado. I would buy a couple of them.
MM :)
Well first, they have to actually decide to make the kit. If you think back, they have said this a couple of times before, stating that they would be bringing kits out by a certain time and then nothing. Redesigning means extra costs, and a bigger increase in the kit price. Brodak lists the Banshee at $117 (out of stock, or course) which is roughly the same construction and size as a Twister, and a redesign would put it at $150 to $175 maybe? Maybe $200 if the balsa situation does not improve?? And none of the modifications would do any good for someone that is just learning to build and fly. May I also point out that gentleman from Japan that posted the flight videos of his "White Twister" flying a fantastic pattern with it and when asked, he said the model was completely stock and powered by a Brodak .40, and even gave the control horn and bell crank set up lengths. That was one of the things that made the Twister so attractive, that is was low cost, and a simple airplane that was easy to build and finished out at lightweight. But first, as I said, we need to see the kits first and they have told us all this before. I'll believe it when we see them. The way that they are going about this restructuring, it's kind of like producing kits while living in the basement of your parents house!! Every move they make probably affects the other two businesses that are under the same roof.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Didn't Duke Fox start out building engines on his kitchen table?
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Didn't Duke Fox start out building engines on his kitchen table?
He jobbed out many of the operations until he had his first house with a garage and used that. Even when he first teamed up with Dale Arnold, they both did their work in their respective garages. Then they acquired their first building once engines sales picked up in the late 1940's. That was the building on Varna St. that you see on the green Fox boxes.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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If the rumor comes to fruition every organized C/L club in the country should blow a little dust off the "kitty" and order at least one each of both the Twister and Shoestring kits. And, don't be asking for a club discount. Once received they can raffle them off at their next meeting or club event. y1
That's a great idea!
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Perhaps if SIG were a franchise, they could produce a fancherized Twister. With a tip of the hat to Scientification: R U understanding?
Sorry gents, too much coffee this morning.
Dave Mo...
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Well first, they have to actually decide to make the kit. If you think back, they have said this a couple of times before, stating that they would be bringing kits out by a certain time and then nothing. Redesigning means extra costs, and a bigger increase in the kit price. Brodak lists the Banshee at $117 (out of stock, or course) which is roughly the same construction and size as a Twister, and a redesign would put it at $150 to $175 maybe? Maybe $200 if the balsa situation does not improve?? And none of the modifications would do any good for someone that is just learning to build and fly. May I also point out that gentleman from Japan that posted the flight videos of his "White Twister" flying a fantastic pattern with it and when asked, he said the model was completely stock and powered by a Brodak .40, and even gave the control horn and bell crank set up lengths. That was one of the things that made the Twister so attractive, that is was low cost, and a simple airplane that was easy to build and finished out at lightweight. But first, as I said, we need to see the kits first and they have told us all this before. I'll believe it when we see them. The way that they are going about this restructuring, it's kind of like producing kits while living in the basement of your parents house!! Every move they make probably affects the other two businesses that are under the same roof.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Take a look at Jay Smith's article in the January Model Aviation.
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Take a look at Jay Smith's article in the January Model Aviation.
I did!! And that is what I am basing my comments on. I think it's more about what he doesn't say. I mentioned his article in the other thread. He only had about 3 sentences to say about the visit, and given SIG's history and it's place in the history of the hobby industry, if he had any enthusiasm about what he saw, I think he would have had more to say. Rizzo has been saying the same basic thing for 4 years now and we've watched this move along at a snail's pace. It's got to all be depending on finances as far as how fast he can move forward and progress. One thing I keep in mind is the complaints from people here on Stunthangar about customer service issues, such as paying for an order and then never seeing their items and then no communications about afterward. There were as many complaints about SIG as there were about Okie Air and RSM's new owner for a while. They seemed to have improved some in that respect as people have gotten used to the situation and watch what they are are ordering. We need all the resources for supplies that we can get, and I will be glad if SIG manages to come back to help fill that need, but I have my doubts that they will be anything close to what they once were. If they do get on more firm ground, will they make good on back orders and such from the last 4 years, and either provide the products ordered or refund their money?? From what I see on their website, they have filled in some areas with stock but still have the words "SOLD OUT" on way too many sections to give me much confidence. As I search the site I keep in mind the items I used to buy and still would buy today, and it's more than just kits, and there are a lot of things missing or SOLD OUT. To produce kits, you need balsa wood. They sold off that capability to cut their own, and now will have to source that on the open market. That WILL greatly affect their prices if they do manage to produce anything, and that doesn't include everything needed to produce a kit, from the box to everything else that is in it. They most likely will have to outsource that part of the process. At least they can produce their own plastic parts, I would think. You have to remember that SIG produced everything for their kits in house and that kept prices down, controlled quality, and available stocks up. Imagine having to start this process over from scratch and trying to bring all this together from several sources? If you have any interruptions in any supply chain, things grind to a halt. It is kind of ironic that SIG started out with Glenn and Hazel cutting and selling wood in the basement of their home, and were once the worlds largest supplier of hobby woods of all kinds, and now can't provide any.
On another SIG note, I got a message that Hazel has been moved from her home by SIG Field to an assisted living facility in Montezuma, and that there is an auction being held soon for the house and contents. I have not been able to find out if SIG Field is included in this. Think of all the fun and good times that have been held there over the years!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Thank you, Dan for the reality check.
My optimism for them to succeed comes from my not-joyous memories of starting a new business. I want to support the new SIG for any products they can supply. The hobby business is certainly at a historical tough spot now. A challenge for them for sure.
I met Hazel once at a model expo years ago and she signed a catalog for me. Nice lady for sure. The story of SIG is fascinating and I like when Dan and others can provide tidbits of history.
As far as new SIG, I placed 3 orders in 2024 for items listed as in-stock and all were delivered quickly with no problems.
The catalogs that old SIG put out with the beautiful color photos of their models were nothing short of model airplane porn. They supplied it all and it was a wonderful period in time.
Two points:
New SIG owns the rights to a whole line of wonderful models. It would be nice if they become available again.
My accumulated stash of SIG dope did not have white, and I had to consider compatibility of Brodak white and the possibility of a finish disaster. Now they have white in stock, and I am set. New SIG, I am guessing, has a specification sheet (recipe) they can send to a dope manufacturer (maybe Randolf) and produce a produce that is still SIG dope. A product compatible with SIG dope, cuz it is SIG dope. I have heard Brodak dope is "better". Then again, I have 30-year-old SIG doped planes that haven't dried out and are still functional (silkspan and silk). If new SIG can keep supplying dope compatible with old SIG dope, I want to be a customer.
I wish them only success.
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My optimism for them to succeed comes from my not-joyous memories of starting a new business. I want to support the new SIG for any products they can supply. The hobby business is certainly at a historical tough spot now. A challenge for them for sure.
I wish them only success.
If you have been through the drill of starting and trying to build a business, then you understand what I'm trying to say. I have been involved in establishing and building up of three businesses in my working career, and all three were manufacturing businesses started from scratch. The deal with SIG really isn't much different, only they are starting with an establish name brand and somewhat of a product line. Imagine buying a business that has been successfully producing a line of products for over 50 years, then throw all of that away and start over!! In my view that is essentially what they are doing. Add in the problems with the economy, supply chains, the pandemic, and a shrinking, changing market and you got yourself quite a chore ahead of you!! I see some similarities with the great Planes takeover of Top Flite. All they really wanted was some product names and lines like Monokote, the Gold Seal R/C kits, and a few other tidbits and then they literally threw the rest away in the dumpster!! From what I hear from people that were there, they pitched everything they were not interested in, including tooling and support stock. That allowed them to take that stuff off the books, and it was how George Aldrich got the rights to the Nobler and Flite Streak back so Brodak could change the name of their kits that they called Lightning Streak and then produced Georges Original Nobler kit. Brodak isn't too different from what SIG was in that they do a lot of their own stuff in house also to help control cost and quality. Brodak owned print shops and other business in the area that helped him out in that respect, I believe. If you liked those really nice catalogs that Hazel signed for you, SIG printed those also. They had some small presses and some bindery equipment to do all that themselves, and were familiar with it because that was what Glenn and Hazel did for a living before the hobby business came along. They had an old, 64" two color Heidelberg sheet fed press in the basement of one of the older buildings that they printed their plans on. Glenn and a couple of other employees were the only ones that knew how to tune it and tweak it, and once it was running right, they printed plans until they had what they needed for a long time plus any extra if they had paper left! They did their own plastic injection molding equipment for those kind of parts, vacu-formed their own canopies and cut their own foam wing cores, formed their own metal parts, filled their own bottles, cans and glue tubes in machines that Glenn built. They had their own machine shop and carpenter shop. It really was an amazing thing to see , but that is how people thought back then, that this is what you need to do to be successful and they were. I hear people say "Well, they should have gotten a laser cutter for making kits" but these people didn't know that SIG had one of the first ones in the industry, did their own laser cutting in addition to contract work for other kit makers and other types of lase work for other customers!! The original machine was very old, but still worked, and the last owner before Rizzo was able to sell it and replaced it with two newer, abut smaller machines, but were much faster and more up top date. There was everything there in Montezuma to produce much of the SIG line of products, including a trained work force, and they walked away from it. I could understand eliminating things, cutting back here and there as needed, but to just walk away from it all didn't make sense. I'm sure it all didn't bring very much at the auction. I'm not sure if the building and lot has been sold. I'll have to get in touch with Becky Van Dee and see what she knows about the old site.
I went up there to Montezuma for 28 years straight for the C/L contest and got to know Hazel, Maxey, Mike Gretz and Mike Pratt , Bob Nelson and all the others there quite well and considered them friends. I got to meet and know many of the great people in this hobby there also as a bonus. The factory was something that I had dreamed of seeing as a kid when I read they held tours and when I finally made it there and got to see it all, it was like my "Field of Dreams" and it was in Iowa also!! I really would like to see them succeed in this endeavor, but from the way they are going about it, I just have my doubts and I think it will just be a fraction of what it once was. I think we all have been experiencing what some might call the "Golden Age of Model Aviation" for the last 40 years and it will never be the same as it was.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Lets see... Just thinking out loud on my part. Brodak sells a similar model today that is laser cut for $160. Does Brodak cut their own wood? I'll assume SIG is no longer in the balsa business and has the same vendor of balsa as Brodak. What price do you think SIG will sell their Twister kit for? Methinks it would be a steal at $140 plus shipping. Brodak has a MUCH wider line of kits so they will enjoy the economy of scale for the hardware, boxes, plans, etc alone. Hmmmmm....
I wonder how many Flite Streak kits Brodak sells at $190 each? Let alone how many are are being cloned by tracing the parts and scratch building additional copies? Yet when a "valued" vendor of kits goes under some have/will offer condolences not remembering they help drive the nails into the coffin.....
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Lets see... Just thinking out loud on my part. Brodak sells a similar model today that is laser cut for $160. Does Brodak cut their own wood? I'll assume SIG is no longer in the balsa business and has the same vendor of balsa as Brodak. What price do you think SIG will sell their Twister kit for? Methinks it would be a steal at $140 plus shipping. Brodak has a MUCH wider line of kits so they will enjoy the economy of scale for the hardware, boxes, plans, etc alone. Hmmmmm....
I wonder how many Flite Streak kits Brodak sells at $190 each? Let alone how many are are being cloned by tracing the parts and scratch building additional copies? Yet when a "valued" vendor of kits goes under some have/will offer condolences not remembering they help drive the nails into the coffin.....
Another unique advantage brodak has is it has a parent company; I imagine the line of model airplane products is heavily subsidized by John’s grocery business.
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Just got an order from Sig! shipped right away!
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Just got an order from Sig! shipped right away!
It looks like silkspan is available again
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It looks like silkspan is available again
I hope you're right, but might want to check it out before we declare victory on that one.
Brett
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I hope you're right, but might want to check it out before we declare victory on that one.
Brett
I spoke with Dave Lindsey at EAA Winter Flight Fest on February 8, the indoor free flight guy, he gets his wood from the same mill that Sig is ordering from. He visited Sig and found out they expect a big wood order and will cut kits soon. So that is encouraging.
I asked about fuel, and he didn't think SIG would be supplying fuel anymore.
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It looks like silkspan is available again
Sig Medium silkspan is/was still my favorite ever.
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It looks like silkspan is available again
I emailed them and asked if it was the same stuff it use to be...he replied it should be..........
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I ordered “heavy” silkspan from Sig about a month ago. Got the order in three days. Used some of the silkspan for a test piece. Works fine, seems just like the old stuff.
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I ordered “heavy” silkspan from Sig about a month ago. Got the order in three days. Used some of the silkspan for a test piece. Works fine, seems just like the old stuff.
#^ #^ I learned Silkspan when I was 7, it is my native covering.
Ken
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Sig also has Lite Coat back in stock, and also colors. Yaaaay! 👍 #^
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Redesigning means extra costs, and a bigger increase in the kit price. Brodak lists the Banshee at $117 (out of stock, or course) which is roughly the same construction and size as a Twister, and a redesign would put it at $150 to $175 maybe? Maybe $200 if the balsa situation does not improve?? And none of the modifications would do any good for someone that is just learning to build and fly. May I also point out that gentleman from Japan that posted the flight videos of his "White Twister" flying a fantastic pattern with it and when asked, he said the model was completely stock and powered by a Brodak .40, and even gave the control horn and bell crank set up lengths. That was one of the things that made the Twister so attractive, that is was low cost, and a simple airplane that was easy to build and finished out at lightweight.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
I'm hoping they bring kits back and make them better. No need for redesign, the FTwister has already been designed and I doubt the small changes would cost another $83 in balsa. Someone just learning to fly would probably be building a 1/2a then a Ringmaster ect. The Twister, I would consider as a third step in the learning process. In that case a stable flying plane would be beneficial. I think most would be bought by experianced flyers and kit bashed anyway. Yes, it's already a good plane but even better with the mods. Prices always go up but hopefully evolution of the product continues. Imagine a less ugly Banshee and a Fancherised Tornado kit but, as you say, these things only exist in dreams at present.
MM :)
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Redesigning means someone experienced enough to know what should be changed. How many hours in CAD to make it happen?
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I think that I read that SIG sold all of their die cutting machines. If they still have the dies they could probably get new machines. That would rule out design changes, too expensive to make new dies. If they are instead going to invest in laser cutters then design changes are not only feasible but likely if they just reach out to us first. All that matters is that it fits into the box.
Ken
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As part of my student training I worked at the Fisher Body Livonia Trim Plant and watched tradesmen make steel rule cutting dies. It's not all that high tech or expensive. And once it in production it makes sheets of parts on the order of one per second, not four minutes per sheet.
Maybe the step is to laser cut the plywood blank and have a robot insert the steel rules. Or else offshore the whole thing to workers in The Phillipines or Pakistan.
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I think that I read that SIG sold all of their die cutting machines. If they still have the dies they could probably get new machines. That would rule out design changes, too expensive to make new dies. If they are instead going to invest in laser cutters then design changes are not only feasible but likely if they just reach out to us first. All that matters is that it fits into the box.
Ken
And therein lies the next problem. Shipping boxes as long as the usual kit box got really expensive. From that standpoint making parts under 30" makes a lot of sense even though you would need to splice longer parts. I'd expect Sig would just farm out the laser cutting. There are plenty of businesses around to do that now without investing in equipment or the labor to run them.
Dave
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Sig also has Lite Coat back in stock, and also colors. Yaaaay! 👍 #^
I was unable to find thinner on the site - do you have a link?
Brett
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Redesigning means someone experienced enough to know what should be changed. How many hours in CAD to make it happen?
The previous post about just making it the Fancherized version would be a good place to start, and only requires a few parts to change.
Brett
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I was unable to find thinner on the site - do you have a link?
Brett
I only see quarts Brett.
https://sigmfg.com/products/sig-supercoat-thinner?variant=21455969583182
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I was unable to find thinner on the site - do you have a link?
Brett
I use Klean Strip Lacquer Thinner from Home Depot without any problems. $21 a gallon.
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I ordered 4 gallons of thinner from SIG about 7 years ago. I did not request signature required, but that is how they were shipped. Made it to my steps in Washington (the State) but couldn't be delivered. Also, could not change delivery address to my work because they were hazardous. Got 3 attempted delivery notes on my door and they went all the way back to Iowa. Shipped out a second time to my work address and I could sign. Cans look like the box was dropped from ten feet. Buckled and crimped but none of them leaked. I wanted a supply to last a while and got it, the hard way.
Quarts are a little more in price but do not ship as hazardous. Saves money, I think.
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I use Kleenstrip Lacquer Thinner from Home Depot without any problems. $21 a gallon.
What you get and what we get may not be the same! CARB.
Brett
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What you get and what we get may not be the same! CARB.
Brett
This new can I just got seems to have very little odor compared to the last can I got 2 years ago.
This can is most assuredly a new can. On the back it tells us not to drink this stuff!
Maybe when you're here for the Nats, pick up a gallon or so to take back with you. Or I can bring some to the Nats for you.
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I just checked a Fresno CA. Home Depot and the can they show is exactly the same can that I have.
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I just checked a Fresno CA. Home Depot and the can they show is exactly the same can that I have.
What you get and what we get may not be the same! CARB.
Brett
I have been getting the same stuff at Wal Mart.
Has to say 'high solvency' on the back of the can....just like in the picture.
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This new can I just got seems to have very little odor compared to the last can I got 2 years ago.
This can is most assuredly a new can. On the back it tells us not to drink this stuff!
Maybe when you're here for the Nats, pick up a gallon or so to take back with you. Or I can bring some to the Nats for you.
The differences in lacquer thinner has been covered several times before. I think it is a state to state thing. It started years ago when Windy said on one of his videos that he could not get DuPont 3608S thinner back when we were using that a lot. He could only get 3608W that did not work. I have mentioned before that is you go around and read the ingredients on the can you might see that all it says on it is "acetone" . I hit all the places around me like auto parts stores and hardware stores and that's what I found . When Home Depot started carrying Kleen Strip, I tried some of that and it worked OK for me. Look at the photo of the back of the can that Crist posted, it's got all sorts of stuff in it!! You might have to even think outside the box a bit and not look for lacquer thinner. I bought some thinner off a local FB Marketplace ad that just said "Brush Cleaner" and the can was printed in as much Spanish as English!! That made me think it might have come from one of the border states. They can get around some rules and regulations by NOT calling it lacquer thinner. I tried thinning a sample of clear 50/50 and it worked the same as Kleen Strip. I have seen the Kleen Strip in cans with different colors also. It's confusing but being vigilant and paying attention to labels is what you gotta do!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I just checked a Fresno CA. Home Depot and the can they show is exactly the same can that I have.
You guys should be able to just see if the bar code numbers match, if so, you should be same same.
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You guys should be able to just see if the bar code numbers match, if so, you should be same same.
That's not always true. I got one can of lacquer thinner at the hardware store, and found it did a great job with K&B SuperPoxy, which is very fussy about thinner. Great, I can go get a bunch of it. Same can, same shelf, same part number, etc, 3 weeks later, tried it - curdled up immediately. The manufacturers are both changing things on a regular basis to get something mostly functional using the current least-expensive chemicals, and to play whack-a-mole with the California Air Resources Board and Bay Area Air Quality Management District, they ban one batch, they change it and sell it until the next thing gets banned. too.
Brett
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Kleen Strip (wmbarr.com) sells two (2) versions of Laquer Thinner, a Calif Compliant version, and one for everybody else. When I originally learned this as a Calif native I chucked all of my lacquer thinner. Then on my next trip to Las Vegas with the better half, I stopped at a store and picked up a few cans of the non-compliant stuff (Shhhh!). It seems to be the real deal. I would hope that the good stuff can be obtained in Oregon (North West Regionals contest trip?) and Arizona (VSC trip?) as well as Nevada.
Attached (I hope) are excerpts from the MSDS from both products, and some other info. The Calif version only has two (2) ingredients. The version for everybody else has a whole passel of ingredients.
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About a month ago, I bought a gallon of Kleen Strip "green" lacquer thinner. The artwork on the can is different than from what I usually saw before. On the back, the usual warnings and such, in English and Spanish.
On the can, it says "19% renewable and biodegradable content. HAPS free, contains less than 1% petroleum distillates."
At the bottom, on the back, it says "Not for sale or use in California." It also says "environmental claims on this product are in comparison to regular Kleen Strip lacquer thinner." "Hazardous air pollutants as defined by the EPA."
It smells like the previous gallon I had. I use it for cleaning brushes and spray gun and it works well enough for that.
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Does SIG sell Kleen Strip?
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Does SIG sell Kleen Strip?
Maybe it should. I've used it for years with all brands of dope. Excellent stuff. It's foolish to pay more when this does the job just as well as anything else.
Dave
Available at any Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart and Ace Hardware. The California guys should run it from another state like moonshine....
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The differences in lacquer thinner has been covered several times before. I think it is a state to state thing. It started years ago when Windy said on one of his videos that he could not get DuPont 3608S thinner back when we were using that a lot. He could only get 3608W that did not work. I have mentioned before that is you go around and read the ingredients on the can you might see that all it says on it is "acetone" . I hit all the places around me like auto parts stores and hardware stores and that's what I found . When Home Depot started carrying Kleen Strip, I tried some of that and it worked OK for me. Look at the photo of the back of the can that Crist posted, it's got all sorts of stuff in it!! You might have to even think outside the box a bit and not look for lacquer thinner. I bought some thinner off a local FB Marketplace ad that just said "Brush Cleaner" and the can was printed in as much Spanish as English!! That made me think it might have come from one of the border states. They can get around some rules and regulations by NOT calling it lacquer thinner. I tried thinning a sample of clear 50/50 and it worked the same as Kleen Strip. I have seen the Kleen Strip in cans with different colors also. It's confusing but being vigilant and paying attention to labels is what you gotta do!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Just for kicks....I scanned the QR code from the picture above and it takes you to the Kleen Strip site where the SDS .pdf sheets can be dwnloaded....I didn't but that's where they are.
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That's not always true. I got one can of lacquer thinner at the hardware store, and found it did a great job with K&B SuperPoxy, which is very fussy about thinner. Great, I can go get a bunch of it. Same can, same shelf, same part number, etc, 3 weeks later, tried it - curdled up immediately. The manufacturers are both changing things on a regular basis to get something mostly functional using the current least-expensive chemicals, and to play whack-a-mole with the California Air Resources Board and Bay Area Air Quality Management District, they ban one batch, they change it and sell it until the next thing gets banned. too.
Brett
Yeah, I guess I should have figured that, politics, corporate games, and bean counters at their best. Hate to think any of them could ever leave anything alone, especially something that actually works.
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Yeah, I guess I should have figured that, politics, corporate games, and bean counters at their best. Hate to think any of them could ever leave anything alone, especially something that actually works.
As everyone knows, the volatile organic compounds arising from a guy using 1/2 ounce of VOC-containing thinner to spray a model airplane once every 5 years is a critical environmental manner that, if stopped, will finally make the air perfectly clean. ]
BTW, have you ever seen a "vapor recovery" gas nozzle? Mandatory in California.
All of these things started with a completely valid goal and sensible and reasonable approaches. Just in my time in California, the air in LA on my trips there has gotten remarkably cleaner and heavy smog days in the Bay Area are now very rare. But once started, there is never a point where anyone says "problem solved" and dissolves the committee. Once you reach one goal, you just move the goalposts, ratchet up the regulation, lather, rinse, repeat.
Brett
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Just remember, if it's biodegradable, nontoxic, and environmentally safe, it doesn't work. You need to move if you plan to use it in any state that doesn't allow freedom.
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BTW, have you ever seen a "vapor recovery" gas nozzle? Mandatory in California.
Brett
We had the vapor recovery nozzles on gas pumps here for years. Made it a royal pain in the butt to fill a gas can. Then they went away , but I don't remember if they figured out that they weren't working or what happened, but they have been gone for a while now. Can't say that I missed them!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I remember those vapor recovery nozzles. Yes, they were a pain. If you did not push hard enough to make firm contact, the pump would not work. They might have been in Texas for a while, but I have not seen them in a long time. The replacement is a circular flap. I suppose it is supposed to be pressed against the filler opening but I see that device as nothing more than a splash shield.
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ChatGPT:
Vapor recovery nozzles, which were once common at gas stations, have largely disappeared due to advancements in vehicle emissions technology. These nozzles were originally required to capture gasoline vapors that would otherwise escape into the air while refueling, helping to reduce air pollution and smog-forming volatile organic compounds (VOCs).
However, starting in the late 1990s, automakers began equipping gasoline-powered vehicles with onboard refueling vapor recovery (ORVR) systems. These systems capture and recycle fuel vapors inside the vehicle’s fuel system, making the external vapor recovery nozzles redundant.
As more vehicles with ORVR systems hit the road, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) determined that the vapor recovery nozzles at gas stations were no longer necessary. In 2012, the EPA allowed states to phase out the requirement for Stage II vapor recovery systems, and most gas stations removed them in the following years. This change reduced maintenance costs for gas stations while still maintaining emissions control.
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ChatGPT:
As more vehicles with ORVR systems hit the road, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) determined that the vapor recovery nozzles at gas stations were no longer necessary. In 2012, the EPA allowed states to phase out the requirement for Stage II vapor recovery systems, and most gas stations removed them in the following years. This change reduced maintenance costs for gas stations while still maintaining emissions control.
CARB did not get that memo.
Brett
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ChatGPT:
Vapor recovery nozzles, which were once common at gas stations, have largely disappeared due to advancements in vehicle emissions technology. These nozzles were originally required to capture gasoline vapors that would otherwise escape into the air while refueling, helping to reduce air pollution and smog-forming volatile organic compounds (VOCs).
However, starting in the late 1990s, automakers began equipping gasoline-powered vehicles with onboard refueling vapor recovery (ORVR) systems. These systems capture and recycle fuel vapors inside the vehicle’s fuel system, making the external vapor recovery nozzles redundant.
As more vehicles with ORVR systems hit the road, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) determined that the vapor recovery nozzles at gas stations were no longer necessary. In 2012, the EPA allowed states to phase out the requirement for Stage II vapor recovery systems, and most gas stations removed them in the following years. This change reduced maintenance costs for gas stations while still maintaining emissions control.
The vehicle on board system does nothing unless the gas cap is properly in place. If the gas cap is not on correctly, that can trigger a "CHECK ENGINE" light with a certain ODB-II code. Otherwise, I still see vapor and fumes wafting out of the tank receptacle just like it always has. The rubber flap or disc can't really seal off or cover things, depending on the type of vehicle. But if it makes some people happy, I guess that's the main thing!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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The vehicle on board system does nothing unless the gas cap is properly in place. If the gas cap is not on correctly, that can trigger a "CHECK ENGINE" light with a certain ODB-II code. Otherwise, I still see vapor and fumes wafting out of the tank receptacle just like it always has. The rubber flap or disc can't really seal off or cover things, depending on the type of vehicle. But if it makes some people happy, I guess that's the main thing!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
I think we might be talking about two different things, there is evaoprative controls (the infamous "carbon canister") that handles evaporation once the gas is in the tank, and the vapor recover gas nozzle, that sucks it up back into the storage tank when you are fueling. This has the giant spring and cloth sheath over the metal gas nozzle, and sucks any vapor that comes back out of the filler neck.
Brett
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I think we might be talking about two different things, there is evaoprative controls (the infamous "carbon canister") that handles evaporation once the gas is in the tank, and the vapor recover gas nozzle, that sucks it up back into the storage tank when you are fueling. This has the giant spring and cloth sheath over the metal gas nozzle, and sucks any vapor that comes back out of the filler neck.
Brett
Yes, that's what I was referring to when I first answered your post yesterday. The ChatGPT response that Bill Lee posted mentions that the fuel pump recovery nozzles were "no longer necessary" as more vehicles became equipped with the ORVR systems. One really doesn't have anything to do with the other, but the ChatGPT response sounds like a typical AI or even Government response that doesn't make sense !! The local/state Gas Stations Owners organization fought pretty hard against the pump nozzles at first here in Missouri , so maybe some of that effort helped get the removed. I think there were some other "operational issues" with them that caused some other incidents and accidents that helped it along.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I can tell you from experience that having the purge canister for the fume capture system get clogged is a huge PIA since you basically cannot put fuel in the tank. Mine is clogged now and I am awaiting some extra cash to get it fixed. It only lets me put in about .05gals per squeeze of the gas pump. Gets better as the tank fills all the way up to .2gal @ squeeze at half full with 10 seconds between squeezes.
Ken
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If you want to hear a good one, I think this is it:
The older style BMW motorcycles, with carburetors, had to get some emissions controls installed in order to sell them in the U. S. One of those emission controls was a vapor trapping system. When the motorcycle was parked, and a rather hot day, fuel vapors from the tank were directed to the crankcase via a check valve. Also, the tank would store some vapors in the upper portion of the tank, a separate compartment. This made it impossible to completely fill the tank due to the way the tank was made.
When trying to start the engine on a hot day, all those vapors in the crankcase were then drawn into the airbox. And some of the vapors trapped in the tank were also pulled into the airbox. This made for an overly rich mixture that would not ignite. Crank, crank a bit more, until those vapors were drawn thru the engine and out the exhaust. Finally, the engine would start. Or, you could crack the gas cap to let the vapors escape and then the engine would start normally.
So, those vapors, which the EPA mandated be trapped, eventually ended up in the atmosphere anyway, either thru the exhaust while the engine was being cranked, or when the gas cap was cracked. But, there was a vapor trapping system and the EPA was satisfied. They just did not know the the vapors ended up in the atmosphere anyway.
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This really is off topic, but interesting in any case.
Below is a schematic of the evaporative control system as I found on my 2004 F150. This schematic is showing the flow of air/fumes for the actual recovery.
What isn't shown is the flow when the tank is being filled. The fumes flow toward the evaporative canister, absorbed, and flows out the "atmosphere" vent.
On my 2004 F150, that vent was routed up into an empty spot within a frame cross member between the rear wheels. The vent was attractive to mud dobbers which would eventually plug it with their mud nests. When plugged, just as Ken mentioned, filling the tank was VERY difficult, a small burst for each time squeezed the lever. Since the fumes couldn't get through/out the system, the pump senses back pressure and shuts off.
The first time I had that happen (mud dobbers in the vent pipe), I had it fixed at the local Ford dealer. They gave me the picture of what they found, below. And which cost me a couple of hundred $s!
The second time it happened, I climbed underneath, found the vent and cleaned it myself.
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Wow! From "SIG is back" to vapor recovery systems.
My 1971 Triumph TR6 has a charcoal canister. After 40-plus years it was discovered to be plugged-up while trying to figure out why the tank wasn't venting during operation.
I found out it can be disassembled, the gooey charcoal granules removed, a replacement screen for the soggy one that kept the charcoal out of the inlet/outlet hoses, and fresh aquarium charcoal poured in.
Now it breathes correctly and should work for another 40 years.
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Yeah, the thread has drifted way off course. But sometimes it is good to share some information and to marvel at the stupidity of government officials. We laugh about it, but it is not amusing.
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I used SIG products since the late 60s as a young teenager. They had some really good world class people designing both RC and C/L products. With the passing of Mike Gretz a few years back SIG went down
hill. A year ago they promised a couple of RC kits to be brought back into the market. That never happened. Basically they are now nothing more than a reseller of Vietnamese made ARFs along with some hardware. Most of their production equipment was auctioned off over a year ago when Rizzo moved the operation to Illinois. Heck, you can't even get fuel from them anymore. As far as new control line kits coming back I will believe it when I see it.
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Anyone buy the new Twister or Shoestring that is available "1st quarter" of the year?
I email Sig Mfg about every 6 months to ask when they plan to resume shipping CL balsa kits. Today, I received this response:
Hi Dave,
We are making the twister and shoestring by the end of the first quarter. Others will follow threw the year.
Thanks,
Sig
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You guys should be able to just see if the bar code numbers match, if so, you should be same same.
In the case I described the bar codes, part #, etc, were identical.
Brett
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I visited the SIG web site today. The Twister is still listed at $89 but "Not in Stock". It is not listed under "Control Line", you have to search for it. That is an insane low price. If they are shipping kits, someone has bought one. Anybody know the new price? I would also like to know what kind of wood they are shipping.
Ken
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Back to drifting the thread...Washington state used to require emission tests. At first, they had you drive into the shop and shoved a probe up the exhaust (of your car or truck!). They may have had the drive tires on a roller dyno sort of setup, but that was LONG ago, and I may be mistaken. When all the new vehicles had multiple computers, they'd just plug into the OBD port and read what it said, and if it showed no codes, you got approved. NOW, and for about the last 5 years, there's no more testing required. My theory is that they put the burden on the repair shops to rat you out and those shops are forbiden to release your vehicle until the onboard computer says you can pass "GO" and pay $2000.
FWIW, before the computers, I put a Ford/Weber 1600cc carb on my wife's Mazda 808, and passed emissions every time...by running the tank down to about 1/8 tank and adding a gallon of shellac thinner from the hardware store. Where there's a will, there's a way. The Madza (sic) carb had about 1200 too many parts to even consider rebuilding it, and it never ran worth a crap even when brand new. Ran much better with the Fjord carb. y1 Steve
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*Fancherized*, his name Terry G. "Ted" Fancher.
Brett
We've got a few people over here who keep referring to the designer of the Nobler, Peacemaker, Flite Streak etc. as 'George Aldridge'! Grrrr...