SIG

[Mike Griffin]

I was just on SIG's website checking out kits and they are out of stock on just about everything.  Are they going out of business?

Thank you
Mike

[fred cesquim]

I was just on SIG's website checking out kits and they are out of stock on just about everything.  Are they going out of business?

Thank you
Mike

not yet, but they are struggling to keep open. few months ago they went on facebook inviting investors to join.
unfortunately the hobby is dying due to lack of interest of modellers to buil, fly and consequently purchase more material

[Dave Rigotti]

I understand they have a new owner who is investing in new laser cutting equipment and other manufacturing equipment.  SIG ARF's are scheduled in around November.  I'd say SIG is on the rebound!

[Carl Cisneros]

it would be nice if they brought back the Primary Force CL model

[Dave Rigotti]

Have you asked if they will?

it would be nice if they brought back the Primary Force CL model

[Mike Griffin]

I understand they have a new owner who is investing in new laser cutting equipment and other manufacturing equipment.  SIG ARF's are scheduled in around November.  I'd say SIG is on the rebound!

I certainly hope you are correct Dave,

Mike

[Sean McEntee]

Have you asked if they will?

       I remember hearing the story of the Primary Force from Bob Nelson a few years ago.  In a nutshell, after the first run of kits, the cost of production went up and Sig decided to discontinue the P-Force on the grounds that they didn't think anyone would buy what was projected to be a $170 ARF.  This was RIGHT before Brodak began releasing their own ARFs at around the same price.  The P-Force might still be around today if Sig had just stayed its course.  As for rereleasing it now, I understand it would take quite a bit of effort and, given Sig's current fiscal situation, that is highly unlikely for the foreseeable future.

[Jim Svitko]

I agree that the hobby is dying.    At the field where I fly, there are maybe three or four CL regulars.  The club is, of course, primarily RC, and most of those are flying the ARF or RTF foamies.  Very few are building anything these days.  The one remaining hobby shop that came close to having the things I need closed about a year ago.  Another shop near me is now primarily RC cars and the owner is big on the RC jets.  He makes components, such as exhaust ducts, for those monster jets.  But, he rarely stocks balsa, plywood, etc.  Why should he when so few are building their own planes these days?

I am lucky to get hardware, epoxy, brass tubing, etc. from him.  He says his supply chain is a mess.  Maybe it is, but the lack of interest in building has to be a factor. 

At times, some of the RC guys will walk over to see what the CL guys are doing.  A few said if the FAA imposes more ridiculous restrictions on RC, they will come back to CL.  I have heard that before.  It never happens.

[Joe Ed Pederson]

Yesterday or the day before I went to the Sig website and called up the page for CL kits, went to the Twister that said "Out of Stock" but clicked on it anyway.  A box opened that said something like "Click here if you want to be notified by email when the kit is back in stock."  I don't think they would bother to have such an option if they didn't intend to produce another batch of Twister kits.  I took it as a good sign. 

Joe Ed Pederson

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

The hobby of flying control line is alive and well at the Northern Virginia CL annual Stunt Fest.  Having a field dedicated to control line helps.  We had about 80 attendees.  These are the pilots and club members following awards.

[Dave Rigotti]

Did SIG sponsor this event?

The hobby of flying control line is alive and well at the Northern Virginia CL annual Stunt Fest.  Having a field dedicated to control line helps.  We had about 80 attendees.  These are the pilots and club members following awards.

[Steve Dwyer]

Response to the statement  "the hobby is dying".

Control Line is right up there with Model Railroading and Hula Hoops popularized in 1958, only the folks from that era remember these and still give it a go.

I could never get a HH to go around more than a couple times so I stuck to control line.

Steve

[Dan McEntee]

  I have seen recent post by Becky Van Dee (a SIG employee) looking for old newspapers to use for packing purposes. That tells you that 1) They are still in business and 2) Their cash flow is tight enough that they have to forage for packing materials. That's the kind of thing you have to do the stay in business. To me, the name SIG really stands for something, so I try to support them any way I can and wish them the best in the effort to stay relevant in the hobby industry.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Carl Cisneros]

Dave

NOPE
Our club did it all ourselves.

[Dave Rigotti]

I was just wondering as you posted this in a thread with SIG as a topic.......

Dave

NOPE
Our club did it all ourselves.

[Colin McRae]

I have had a couple of quarts of fuel on order from SIG for 6 weeks now. Every time I email them, they keep saying 2 more weeks. Out of fuel???

Not a good sign on the health of SIG.

[Dave Rigotti]

I'm sure they have fuel...just no bottles to put it in.  Their vendor supply issues.........

I have had a couple of quarts of fuel on order from SIG for 6 weeks now. Every time I email them, they keep saying 2 more weeks. Out of fuel???

Not a good sign on the health of SIG.

[Reptoid]

I'm sure they have fuel...just no bottles to put it in.  Their vendor supply issues.........

Nice try but I used to be a loyal customer of Sig and bought a lot of items including fuel and ingredients over the years. It has gone seriously down hill since the new owners took over. I don't specifically know what their issues are but suspect under funding and/or poor management. Orders used to go like clockwork and that's sadly not the case anymore. As for "Fuel Bottles" that's not a very good excuse since other fuel and fuel ingredient vendors are able to get them and I just purchased a few empties myself; cheap and available same day.

[Dave Rigotti]

Did you know the "new owners" sold it to a previous owner?

Nice try but I used to be a loyal customer of Sig and bought a lot of items including fuel and ingredients over the years. It has gone seriously down hill since the new owners took over. I don't specifically know what their issues are but suspect under funding and/or poor management. Orders used to go like clockwork and that's sadly not the case anymore. As for "Fuel Bottles" that's not a very good excuse since other fuel and fuel ingredient vendors are able to get them and I just purchased a few empties myself; cheap and available same day.

[Mike Griffin]

I had sent them an email asking about the status of "out of stock" items and they said they would have their stock back in shape in a month.  We will see.

Mike

[Dan McEntee]

I had sent them an email asking about the status of "out of stock" items and they said they would have their stock back in shape in a month.  We will see.

Mike

   I would take the fact that they still answer the phone as a good sign. Look how many other bigger operations that aren't around any longer. The longer that they can hang on, the better the chance that they will still stay in business selling something. Look at all the vendors that they used to carry that aren't around any more or only sell direct on line and bypass the distributor now. That affects a company like SIG and their cash flow a great deal. Tower Hobbies going belly up really upset a bunch of apple carts. I'll keep dealing with them as long as they answer the telephone and acknowledge and respond to emails. There is no need to try and push them over the edge and out of business. I'm sure a big part of their problem is cash flow and supply chain issues, just like a lot of other companies. It's amazing to me how empty all store shelves are these days!
 
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Sean McEntee]

Nice try but I used to be a loyal customer of Sig and bought a lot of items including fuel and ingredients over the years. It has gone seriously down hill since the new owners took over. I don't specifically know what their issues are but suspect under funding and/or poor management. Orders used to go like clockwork and that's sadly not the case anymore. As for "Fuel Bottles" that's not a very good excuse since other fuel and fuel ingredient vendors are able to get them and I just purchased a few empties myself; cheap and available same day.

   These reports are coming from employees at Sig who we, the midwest stunt community have known for decades, not just a nameless voice answering the phone.  As far as fuel goes, Sig has had a string of issues procuring supplies for quite awhile.  It's good to hear that you can get whatever you want, whenever you want it, but that is not the case everywhere, particularly in Iowa.  At one point a few years ago, Sig went almost the whole summer without producing fuel because every nitromethane distributor in the state was in turn having supply problems.  During the first year or two of the pandemic, methanol was in short supply (which is odd given that methanol is a hazardous base for hand sanitizer) as well as jugs for bottling fuel.

    Balsa aside, this stuff just doesn't grow on trees.  There's a big difference between consumer-level availability and bulk commercial supply.  Lots of folks primarily cook their own fuel or do it on a supplementary basis when commercial supply is low, and that could be the future lone option if places like Sig go under.

[MikeyPratt]

Ok Guy’s,
You all act like rats leaving a sinking ship, Gloom and Doom.  There are only a few out there that even have a clue on what it takes to produce products for R/C or C/L.  I don’t know just where the problem is but you can bet your A— that are working hard to keep their jobs and heads above water.

As far as the Primary Force goes, I still sell a short kit for it (but orders have been pretty slow) it flies way better than an ARF, builds lighter and flies better.  I’m redoing the kit right now to make it lighter, simpler and less costly to ship (it’s about half of the price of shipping that it was).  Most manufactures will not eat the cost of a kit redesign so they let it drop off the list.

The cottage industry on Models supplies really needs your help, so support them when you can.

Later,
Mike Pratt.
Formerly employed by Sig Mfg.

[Reptoid]

Did you know the "new owners" sold it to a previous owner?

You mean one of these guys?    Herb Rizzo (President), David Martin (VP and General Manager), and Ron Petterec (VP) as they were the ones who bought it from Hazel.

I don't wish them anything but success but I just haven't seen the signs of a healthy business in a long time. As for fuel; others have managed to continue to supply through whatever "shortages existed" There are numerous wholesale companies that supply Methanol and I haven't seen any difficulty in buying it, nor have any of my drag racing friends. Nitromethane has been far more difficult to acquire since the Homeland security regulations have been in place and security requirements for 100% Nitro are very restrictive creating issues for those who need to have more than 40 gallons on hand. One can however purchase 50-50 (50% nitro-50% methanol) from several venders including VP racing fuels. This can be used to blend any fuel up to 40% Nitro with 20% oil. In todays World, being creative, resourceful, and adept at problem solving is more important than ever for a small business to survive. Hobby businesses are not high profit margin per item businesses to begin with and as we all know the model market (non drone) is not a rapidly expanding market. I also haven't seen any "Marketing" strategies from Sig in a while, like; Sponsorship, prize donations, supplied fuel for events, Club donations, etc. Some of those items go a long way to smooth over occasional service glitches.

[Dan McEntee]

You mean one of these guys?    Herb Rizzo (President), David Martin (VP and General Manager), and Ron Petterec (VP) as they were the ones who bought it from Hazel.

I don't wish them anything but success but I just haven't seen the signs of a healthy business in a long time. As for fuel; others have managed to continue to supply through whatever "shortages existed" There are numerous wholesale companies that supply Methanol and I haven't seen any difficulty in buying it, nor have any of my drag racing friends. Nitromethane has been far more difficult to acquire since the Homeland security regulations have been in place and security requirements for 100% Nitro are very restrictive creating issues for those who need to have more than 40 gallons on hand. One can however purchase 50-50 (50% nitro-50% methanol) from several venders including VP racing fuels. This can be used to blend any fuel up to 40% Nitro with 20% oil. In todays World, being creative, resourceful, and adept at problem solving is more important than ever for a small business to survive. Hobby businesses are not high profit margin per item businesses to begin with and as we all know the model market (non drone) is not a rapidly expanding market. I also haven't seen any "Marketing" strategies from Sig in a while, like; Sponsorship, prize donations, supplied fuel for events, Club donations, etc. Some of those items go a long way to smooth over occasional service glitches.

        SIG has been sold several times through the years. The three you mentioned were not the only once. There was a gentleman who was local to the area that was the first I believe, then Chris LeHay (I'm sure I am spelling that wrong) from New Zealand was the next until he had some major health issues, then the three guys you mentioned, who owned the company for quite a while and in my estimation did the least to position the company for what was lying ahead, and now the current owner, who has been injecting some much funds and  much needed upgrades in equipment and has been working on the balsa supply chain. As for fuel, we couldn't find any source that was shipping or had any available fuel for us to pick up during 2020. My flying buddy and I tried to place a large order with Powermaster (VP_Fuels) through a local hobby shop and they were not mixing and shipping fuel. We went through just about everything we had in out own stocks including questionable fuel just to keep sport flying. Finally, it was later in the year when we got a call from SIG that they had some fuels mixed in a few of the most popular blends so my buddy made a bee line up there to pick up a load. There were several others that were considerably longer drives away that did not have any fuel available due to methanol and jug shortages.  The marketing strategies you mention 1) cost money, which when you are in a cash flow pinch is not a smart business move. People know who SIG Manufacturing is. 2) For the most part during the last two years, there has been nothing to sponsor. Most contests and major exhibitions did not take place. I don't know if you remember or not, but the country was pretty much locked down due to the pandemic! Things are only starting to loosen up now . The longer that SIG can stay afloat, the better their chances of being a major player in the hobby again. Again, they are still answering the phone and shipping some items, so take that as a positive sign and if we can all hang on until we get some better leadership in the country, there will be better times ahead.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Reptoid]

        SIG has been sold several times through the years. The three you mentioned were not the only once. There was a gentleman who was local to the area that was the first I believe, then Chris LeHay (I'm sure I am spelling that wrong) from New Zealand was the next until he had some major health issues, then the three guys you mentioned, who owned the company for quite a while and in my estimation did the least to position the company for what was lying ahead, and now the current owner, who has been injecting some much funds and  much needed upgrades in equipment and has been working on the balsa supply chain. As for fuel, we couldn't find any source that was shipping or had any available fuel for us to pick up during 2020. My flying buddy and I tried to place a large order with Powermaster (VP_Fuels) through a local hobby shop and they were not mixing and shipping fuel. We went through just about everything we had in out own stocks including questionable fuel just to keep sport flying. Finally, it was later in the year when we got a call from SIG that they had some fuels mixed in a few of the most popular blends so my buddy made a bee line up there to pick up a load. There were several others that were considerably longer drives away that did not have any fuel available due to methanol and jug shortages.  The marketing strategies you mention 1) cost money, which when you are in a cash flow pinch is not a smart business move. People know who SIG Manufacturing is. 2) For the most part during the last two years, there has been nothing to sponsor. Most contests and major exhibitions did not take place. I don't know if you remember or not, but the country was pretty much locked down due to the pandemic! Things are only starting to loosen up now . The longer that SIG can stay afloat, the better their chances of being a major player in the hobby again. Again, they are still answering the phone and shipping some items, so take that as a positive sign and if we can all hang on until we get some better leadership in the country, there will be better times ahead.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

I don't know why you couldn't get fuel in 2020. Randy Rich of Ritch's Brew was selling fuel to order all year and supplied free fuel at the Nationals for all "Required Supplied Fuel" events, and had fuel for sale there. The combat guys in Missouri were able to get fuel from Randy all along. FHS Red Max is another source that has fuel available. Both will sell you ingredients for home brew. I was friends with Don Nix, the founder and original owner of Power Master Fuels and I used to buy from him when he was local here in California. He was very Model Airplane oriented and a strong supporter of the hobby. Since VP took over I don't buy their fuel. They don't seem to give a crap about the hobby business. They won't sell oil/methanol/nitro for model fuel mixing to modelers or their dealers.  Nothing to sponsor? You're kidding right?  Look at your AMA sanctioned event calendar in Model Aviation. Hundreds of events every year and numerous events even in 2020.

[Colin McRae]

I have had a couple of quarts of fuel on order from SIG for 6 weeks now. Every time I email them, they keep saying 2 more weeks. Out of fuel???

Not a good sign on the health of SIG.

It has now been 3 months since I ordered some fuel (and paid for it). I have routinely been emailing Becky on status. I have an email from her that they have the fuel, but I asked, and she will not give me even an 'approximate' date to ship. Just says they are filling backorders.

I mostly order my CL supplies (and fuel) from Brodak. My order is on the truck the next day.

I continue to worry about the financial health of SIG. 3+ months awaiting 2 quarts of fuel is ridiculous.

[Sean McEntee]

It has now been 3 months since I ordered some fuel (and paid for it). I have routinely been emailing Becky on status. I have an email from her that they have the fuel, but I asked, and she will not give me even an 'approximate' date to ship. Just says they are filling backorders.

I mostly order my CL supplies (and fuel) from Brodak. My order is on the truck the next day.

I continue to worry about the financial health of SIG. 3+ months awaiting 2 quarts of fuel is ridiculous.

So order fuel from Brodak...

[Mark Schluter]

It has now been 3 months since I ordered some fuel (and paid for it). I have routinely been emailing Becky on status. I have an email from her that they have the fuel, but I asked, and she will not give me even an 'approximate' date to ship. Just says they are filling backorders.

I mostly order my CL supplies (and fuel) from Brodak. My order is on the truck the next day.

I continue to worry about the financial health of SIG. 3+ months awaiting 2 quarts of fuel is ridiculous.

Been there done that--March till Sept, no fuel, then emails promising a refund, but ultimately had to file a written credit card dispute, results pending. Proceed with caution. Its really sad.

[Curare]

Ok Guy’s,
You all act like rats leaving a sinking ship, Gloom and Doom.  There are only a few out there that even have a clue on what it takes to produce products for R/C or C/L.  I don’t know just where the problem is but you can bet your A— that are working hard to keep their jobs and heads above water.

As far as the Primary Force goes, I still sell a short kit for it (but orders have been pretty slow) it flies way better than an ARF, builds lighter and flies better.  I’m redoing the kit right now to make it lighter, simpler and less costly to ship (it’s about half of the price of shipping that it was).  Most manufactures will not eat the cost of a kit redesign so they let it drop off the list.

The cottage industry on Models supplies really needs your help, so support them when you can.

Later,
Mike Pratt.
Formerly employed by Sig Mfg.

Hey Mike, I'm curious, what are the specs of the new PF?

[Paul Walker]

Just saw my LHS owner yesterday. He has been in this business all his life. He has ordered from SIG for years. His orders for the last year come back with "discontinued" . He has stopped dealing with them.
He has other business contacts and the word is the current owner bought SIG cheap, and only wants some of the machinery for another business. He is running it into the ground so he can sell this equipment for pennies on the dollar to one of his other businesses.

I don't think I would order anything from them unless you went to the factory in person and bought it on site.

We then lamented about Top Flite, Du Bro etc. Soon there will be no manufactures of model parts. 

[Robert Zambelli]

A month ago, I went to Brodaks with a list of over thirty items. Tanks, bellcranks, props, kits, canopies, fuel, dope and all sorts of hardware.
I left with every item on the list.
If you cannot get what you need from some of the above mentioned places, give Brodak a try. They usually ship the same or next day.
I should mention that their ARF/ARC supply is somewhat depleted but you might find what you need.
Regarding engines, they no longer have a supplier for the Brodak line (from the Ukraine I believe) but they are actively pursuing some alternate sources. Information will be posted when available.
There may still be some engines in stock - best to call.

Bob Z.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

We then lamented about Top Flite, Du Bro etc. Soon there will be no manufactures of model parts.

Du Bro is strong.  Correct?

[Brett Buck]

We then lamented about Top Flite, Du Bro etc. Soon there will be no manufactures of model parts.

  Pretty predictable, however. Model construction as a mainstream hobby, of all types, has been going downhill for at east 50 years. If is not an RC ARF or drone component, you can reasonably expect it to disappear soon.

   Even the stuff we used to consider ubiquitous - plastic models - are long gone. Used to be in every department/discount stores - even convenience stores. I got most of my plastic model stuff from a local Convenient Food Mart when I was a kid.  Try to find one today. It's an internet-only thing, for the most part, because even the tiny overhead of keeping it on a shelf is not warranted, given the demand. It used to be an entire aisle.  CL is not even a dust mote in the eye of the hobby industry - even most RC sport fliers have never even heard of it, much less seen anyone flying.

   Given that, I think we (stunt, at least) are doing pretty well, not having had the kind of precipitous crash other events have had.

     Brett

   

 

[Paul Walker]

Du Bro is strong.  Correct?

I added DuBro because he told me that they are not making any more small items...like ball links, horns, plastic type quick links, etc. If you see the small things you use , buy them...while you can.

[Colin McRae]

A month ago, I went to Brodaks with a list of over thirty items. Tanks, bellcranks, props, kits, canopies, fuel, dope and all sorts of hardware.
I left with every item on the list.
If you cannot get what you need from some of the above mentioned places, give Brodak a try. They usually ship the same or next day.
I should mention that their ARF/ARC supply is somewhat depleted but you might find what you need.
Regarding engines, they no longer have a supplier for the Brodak line (from the Ukraine I believe) but they are actively pursuing some alternate sources. Information will be posted when available.
There may still be some engines in stock - best to call.

Bob Z.

Bob, I recently talked to Brodak. What I was told is that they will no longer offer ARF and ARC kits once their current inventory is gone. When I learned this, I purchased one of their P40 ARF's.

They will still offer kits for these models, but no ARF/ARC.

I normally buy my needed CL items, fuel etc. from Brodak to support them. Brodak has been great. We surely don't want them to also go by the wayside!!

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Well, you can't see any problem looking at the blog on the dubro website.  Plenty o' product enthusiasm there...

[Paul Walker]

Well, you can't see any problem looking at the blog on the dubro website.  Plenty o' product enthusiasm there...

My LHS owner indicated that they were not going to make more runs of small parts. They have some now as their web site shows, but don't plan on more when these run out.

[Trostle]

A month ago, I went to Brodaks with a list of over thirty items. Tanks, bellcranks, props, kits, canopies, fuel, dope and all sorts of hardware.
I left with every item on the list.
If you cannot get what you need from some of the above mentioned places, give Brodak a try. They usually ship the same or next day.
I should mention that their ARF/ARC supply is somewhat depleted but you might find what you need.
Regarding engines, they no longer have a supplier for the Brodak line (from the Ukraine I believe) but they are actively pursuing some alternate sources. Information will be posted when available.
There may still be some engines in stock - best to call.

Bob Z.

Bob,

I left you a message several days ago.

Keith

[Lyle Spiegel]

I was in Sturbridge Mass about two weeks ago- went specifically to Hog Heaven Hobby shop. They are old school hobby shop ,have very extensive inventory . Only a few Brodak C/L kits. lots of plastic models,  very few glow engines , limited choice of glow plus. Lots of balsa, covering, Brodak & SIG dope, wheels & props galore.
They are happy to take out of town orders and ship promptly if its in stock They will special order items if they can be found.

Smith Brothers Hobby is Los Angeles also a full service hobby shop and will also mail order.

[MikeyPratt]

Hey Mike, I'm curious, what are the specs of the new PF?

Just saw this, sorry for being so slow.

The Specs are the same as designed for the original Primary Force.  The 2.0 is lighter at under 40 ounces with battery and electric equipment needed.

But what has changed Is the balsa sizes.

Example fuse:
Fuse, four pieces of 3/16” balsa laser cut, parts are glued together to form profile fuselage, them sheeted with 1/16” balsa.  Very light $ strong will not twist under load during maneuvers.  1/16” Plywood doublers & electric motor mount (maple motor mounts not included).

Wing:
Externally the same but a few changes on the laser cut parts to reduce weight.
Suspended bell crank (optional C/F pushrod).

Stabilizer:
Built up stab with solid elevators.

Landing a Gear:
1/8” Music Wire landing gear (optional C/F landing gear).

The newest kit builds up at an all up weight of 39 ounces including battery ready to fly.

Mikey