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Author Topic: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship  (Read 2072 times)

Offline Joseph Daly

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NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« on: August 19, 2020, 06:34:22 PM »
I am pleased to announce that we are able to hold the NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship At the World famous Flushing Meadow Park in Queens, NY on September 5th. PAMPA classes Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, and Expert. Plaques to Third place. Plus the winner of Expert Top 5 will be awarded the Gene Schaffer Memorial Cup! So come on out and enjoy a great day of flying and friendship.

Thanks
Joe
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Offline AMV

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2020, 10:29:41 AM »
Hi Joe,

I'm planning to be at the contest this weekend.  I'm also collaborating with Alberto Solera on the VideoF2B software.  I'm trying out some ideas to develop automated scoring in the software.  I wonder if you would let me set up perimeter markers outside one of the circles for orientation recording?  The markers are basically the kind used for FAI references, at 25m radius (82ft), three of them staked 45į apart in the grass.

I've never been to this site or event.  If you have any information on the day's schedule, that would be great too.

The VideoF2B discussion thread is here: https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/videof2b/

Thanks,
-Andrey
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you thought you heard was not what I meant.

Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2020, 02:04:46 PM »
Andrey,
Sure, I would be happy to try it at the contest as a test. The field is open all day, pilots meeting at 9. I will send more information later tonight.
Thanks
Joe

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2020, 02:48:21 PM »
Cool!!!
AMA 13001

Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2020, 04:15:03 PM »
Contest Flyer

Hope to see you there!
Joe

Offline jfv

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2020, 07:14:07 PM »
It's on my schedule.
Jim Vigani

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2020, 09:41:49 AM »
Greetings!  Currently I'm in Florida and it certainly would be kool to attend but according to the requirements of the state, by-law, there's no way I can afford to be there!  Although I have family in the Catskills and in Scarsdale, it would require me to be there or to stay in some hotel for 14 days in advance of the contest.  That's just not in the budget for me.  Nevertheless, I really do wish everyone the very best and a great event!

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/no-205-quarantine-restrictions-travelers-arriving-new-york

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2020, 10:32:14 AM »
Hope the mayor and governor don't hear of this.   They may send in out siders to make sure you don't have fun. S?P
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2020, 04:25:56 PM »
Only 3 days till one of the best contests on the East coast at the world famous Flushing Meadow Park! This Saturday September 5th, weather looks great and I hope to see you there!

Thanks
Joe

Online Howard Rush

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2020, 05:01:55 PM »
Iíll send the program tonight.  I canít get to the computer now.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2020, 05:36:28 PM »
Thanks Howard

Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2020, 10:40:31 AM »
Only 1 day left till one of the best stunt contests on the east coast! Donít miss it, nothing but fun and good friends.
Hope to see you tomorrow at Flushing Meadow Park. Weather looks to be fantastic! Almost stunt heaven.

Thanks
Joe
3 time Gene Schaefer memorial cup winner!

Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2020, 10:52:43 AM »
The contest came and went! It was lightly attended, and I was a little disappointed at the start of the contest.

Later, it hit me this was more than a contest! For those who attended got to see something magical! It was almost like out of the movie field of dreams. Many of the people who attended came just to watch and reminisce on days gone by and what that field and legendary flyers that flew there meant to them and how it shaped their childhood. What was really special to me was seeing Bob Hunt come in and look around and by just the look on his face, you could see the it was 1969 and throughout the day the memories that came out and just the look on his face was priceless. This was much more than a contest for Bob. This was the first time ever I have been happy to be second! Bob second round flight was something special and nothing short of phenomenal. On this Particular day the stunt legends of flushing we're shining down, Billy Simons, Bob Lampione, Big Jim Greenaway, and Gene Schaffer just to name a few and of course Bob had great stories about them all.

Although only a local contest, when I got the Privilege, no, the honor to announce this year winner of the 2020 Gene Schaffer Memorial Cup was Bob Hunt.  He made a quick speech about during all three flights he was talking with his friend Gene. For me this is what made this contest magical!!!

Thanks
Joe

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2020, 12:44:07 PM »
I imagine a book could be written about just this one site and all the people that flew there.   I also imagine there are quite a few that flew there just for the fun of like our old Flying Eagles KCK Circle.  Congrats to Bob on the win. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2020, 01:53:28 PM »
Well, first off thanks to Joe and his amazing crew for having this contest under the very trying conditions that exist these days. The field was in great shape, and, as Joe reported, for me it was like going back in time to the many years in which I flew at this legendary venue with Gene Schaffer, Bill Simons, Bob Lampione, Big Jim Greenaway, Vic Macaluso, Andy Lee, Mike Rogers, Freddy Miles, and, oh, so many others. It was indeed a Field of Dreams for me and many others on that day.

Joe is too kind however about my flying. Yeah, I was well practiced for this one because I was going up against the fastest-rising talent on the scene today. Joe Daly won this meet for the past three years and he was well ready to defend his title. Our first round scores were very close, with me just slightly in the lead. I let it all out for that second round flight, knowing that Joe was about to do the same. He was scoring right with my flight up until the outside rounds. The wind had been changing around from blowing from the north to blowing from the south, and for a short time there was a decided lull. That lull came right at the point where Joe had to fly. His High Voltage hit its own wake turbulence from the first outside round and it just suddenly knife-edged in onto the asphalt. He was "going for it" for sure. The ship was totaled. It would have been interesting to see what score Joe would have posted if he had been able to complete the flight.

Joe borrowed his son, Steven's, airplane to fly in the Gene Schaffer Memorial Cup fly-off, and he flew it amazingly well despite only one practice flight. He ended up in a close second place, with my good friend, Tom Luciano in a competitive third place, and an ever-improving Will DeMauro (last year's National Advanced Champion) in fourth. Tom was flying his Crossfire that had been torn apart earlier in the year during a practice flight when he hit a cone that was placed just outside the circle for size reference. Steven's plane, by the way, is a replica of Big Jim Greenaway's 40-size Patternmaster. How's that for some added effect at that field? This is the plane that Steven will probably fly at the FAI World Championships next year.

Joe used the word "magical" to describe the feeling of the day at Flushing Meadows; my take on it was that it was very much spiritual. I did indeed talk to Gene all through my three competition flights, and I felt his presence coaching me all the way. It was probably not fair to Joe and the others that I had Gene helping me out that day...

I had been having some nagging trim problems with my Crossfire right up to the evening before the contest. In my last practice session on Friday evening something made me try a new trim approach, and it worked to perfection; the Crossfire had never flown so well. I couldn't sleep that night; I was too giddy about how the ship was performing. And, I needed every bit of that performance to sneak by Joe, Tom, and Will. It ranks as one of my most favorite victories because of the people who were present to see it, and because of the myriad spirits of the great fliers of a bygone era who were also there. I know I felt their presence and I think everyone else did as well.

Great day, great people, great site, and the greatest memories...

Later - Bob Hunt   
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 02:58:29 PM by Bob Hunt »

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2020, 02:33:14 PM »
Bob, Congratulations and I'm glad the shoulder held up for you.
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 Randy Powell

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2020, 02:56:39 PM »
Thanks, Randy:

Yeah, with Gene sitting on it for the three flights it's amazing that it didn't hurt!  n~

Later - Bob

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2020, 05:58:38 AM »
I've been contemplating adding a thought to this tread since the contest this past Saturday. I didn't want to throw any cold water on what was a most enjoyable experience for all who attended, but there is a situation that needs to be addressed.

The turnout for the NYCLST contest was disappointedly low. Okay, sure, the Covid 19 thing was a factor this year, but there are other contests scheduled this year on the East Coast, and the organizers of those meets are hoping for a good turnout. You would think that the members of those clubs would bend every effort to support the New York group in hopes that they would reciprocate by attending their contest. The truth is, many of the members of other East Coast clubs do not support the New York group even on years when there is not a health concern.

The reason most often cited by the members of these clubs is the cost of going to New York. The tolls are significant, and the city driving is, well, contentious at best. But isn't it interesting that the New York guys try to make as many meets outside of New York as they can each year. The tolls for them and the driving issues are the same as for anyone else. And they go through these issues several times each year to support other club's contests. They make the trips several times each year, but it seems that many cannot even muster the bucks and courage to go to their contest even once a year.

Our sport is declining, of that there is no doubt, but it will decline even faster if we do not support each other's attempts to keep it going.

Concerned - Bob Hunt


Offline bob whitney

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2020, 09:03:34 AM »
Bob, we get the same thing here in FLORIDA, we have a group of about 6 flyers that travel to Brodaks every year .i have made the trip to Tucson at least 6 times NWR's at least 3 times, driven to Calif 3 times ,flown twice.when we ask about their local flyers coming to the KOI, we get oh ,thats too far.even now if we talk about moving it further down the state we hear the same thing .OH that will make it TOO far

the only thing i can figure is that it is further from Brodaks  and the VSC than it is from FLA to PA,and Arizona S?P
rad racer

Offline jerry v

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2020, 04:53:11 PM »
It was a wonderful experience for me to attend this event. Thank you, Joe, and thanks to everyone who made all the preparations and tabulations so that everything could go smoothly. It was nice weather, light wind. Plenty of good food and fun raffle prizes. But most importantly - there was good camaraderie amongst all the participants, judges, and helpers.

Jerry
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Offline jfv

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2020, 05:47:31 PM »
I have to say that I also felt it was a very special day.  I emailed Joe after I got home and told him, that despite the lower than expected turn out, it was probably the most enjoyable day of flying I had this year.  Even my new plane cooperated.
Jim Vigani

Offline AMV

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2020, 07:48:49 PM »
Get ready for a ridiculously long post.

What can I say...this was my first time ever attending a Stunt CL event anywhere.  I had no idea what to expect, and I was not disappointed at all.

I was inspired to see so much sharp talent at the field. To everyone who didn't show up to this meet for one reason or another: y'all missed out on lots of great flying and on a huge lot of delicious food! Just sayin'.

I want to thank Joe and the gang for organizing everything: setting up the permit so that we hadn't driven six hours in vain; having the field mowed early in the morning; letting me and Jerry set up all the perimeter markers for video tracking; setting up all the pits and tents; managing all the flights; tabulating the scores; bringing all the food and drinks; letting me hang out near the judges with my camera without annoying them too much; and everything else I failed to mention.  Thanks to Bob and Jim for their input about their experience with active timers and competition judging.  It was all I could do to keep up while soaking up all the knowledge.

I was there merely for the support of all Stunt Beginners worldwide (as the only Beginner participant). I hardly deserve the 1st place award ;D
Kidding aside, more importantly I wanted to record video footage of as many flights as possible to further the development of the VideoF2B software application.  If anyone hasn't heard by now, I've set my sights on the rather ambitious goal of tracking Stunt figures in 3D for automated scoring.  It should be an interesting adventure.

Toward that end, I am processing all the footage as fast as I can in order to share my ultimate vision with everyone.  I have prepared all the originals (no tracers, no audio) so far.
There are a total of 18 recorded flights that day:
  • 2 Intermediate (1 pilot, 2 rounds)
  • 4 Advanced (2 pilots, 2 rounds)
  • 12 Expert (4 pilots, 3 rounds)
I managed to capture all of them despite the afternoon's changing wind.  They now reside on a new YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_qSycHQlXgv9PKjmaHFKpw  Go to "PLAYLISTS" and you will see the "NYCLST 2020 - originals" playlist.  This contains all the flights of the day in the order they were flown.  There's a bonus video in there with a closer look at Joe's unfortunate mishap.  I made sure Joe wouldn't mind me sharing it.

Please consider subscribing to get further updates, as my next step will be to post the traced versions of all these videos as soon as I'm done processing them all (by the end of this week, I hope -- it's a rather slow process).  Tom asked me at the field, "Will it show me how bad my patterns are?", and I will answer here: "No, this app only shows how AWESOME your square loops are!" I'm serious, they're tight.

Furthermore, once the traced versions are up I plan to post excerpts of 3D-traced individual figures of everyone's flights.
For example, the inside loops would be the first batch.
You will be able to see three, possibly four things in a given video:
  • The original traced path
  • The nominal "perfect" path as defined by the rules
  • The "best-fit" path that most closely matches the actual executed maneuver
  • A plot of the deviations between the best-fit path and the actual path
...and I hope the judges will join me in a discussion on how to auto-score each figure based on that information.
I hope this will be educational and fun for everyone involved.  Enjoy all the videos of your skills, and stay tuned for future analysis!

To echo Bob's concern -- perhaps the posted videos will help to generate some interest in the hobby in general so that we can engage more newcomers to keep the spirit alive.

Big thanks to all and see y'all next time,
-Andrey
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you thought you heard was not what I meant.

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2020, 09:31:29 PM »
Thanks for posting the film, AMV . Who's is the Patternmaster ? .  H^^

Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2020, 11:53:14 AM »
my son's Stevens. It is a PM 40 and the wings were cut by Big Jim himself. Jose Modesto gave them to Steven for one of his Poland planes. (key word, one of his poland planes!!!)

Thanks
Joe

Offline Peter Nevai

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The memories will be so thick, they'll have to brush them away from their faces.
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2020, 06:54:09 PM »
The contest came and went! It was lightly attended, and I was a little disappointed at the start of the contest.

Later, it hit me this was more than a contest! For those who attended got to see something magical! It was almost like out of the movie field of dreams. Many of the people who attended came just to watch and reminisce on days gone by and what that field and legendary flyers that flew there meant to them and how it shaped their childhood. What was really special to me was seeing Bob Hunt come in and look around and by just the look on his face, you could see the it was 1969 and throughout the day the memories that came out and just the look on his face was priceless. This was much more than a contest for Bob. This was the first time ever I have been happy to be second! Bob second round flight was something special and nothing short of phenomenal. On this Particular day the stunt legends of flushing we're shining down, Billy Simons, Bob Lampione, Big Jim Greenaway, and Gene Schaffer just to name a few and of course Bob had great stories about them all.

Although only a local contest, when I got the Privilege, no, the honor to announce this year winner of the 2020 Gene Schaffer Memorial Cup was Bob Hunt.  He made a quick speech about during all three flights he was talking with his friend Gene. For me this is what made this contest magical!!!

Thanks
Joe

The photos posted here invoke the same feeling. Bob shared with me the flashback feelings of being there back in the day, Gene and Bob Lampione usually were there on Sundays, early before the main crowd of CL enthusiasts arrived. They would occupy the two paved circles. They would be wrapping up by the time the regular CL gang would arrive. I remember if you got there later you would miss the chance to park along the fence that seperated the model aviation circles, and would have to go round to the main parking at the boat house which was quite a walk from the flying field. But as you drew near you would hear the sound of muffled and un-muffled airplane motors and as you drew nearer the smell of castor oil in the air, the day would be sunny and bright, often only a light breeze of fo the lake, and four circles of model airplanes flying. Line ups of model after model along the blizzard fencing that separated the grass circles and the shout of "Watch the Lines"  announced on occasion. People of all ages there, not just us old timers. This post and Bob Hunts recollection I quote James Earl Jones from Field of Dreams "The memories will be so thick, they'll have to brush them away from their faces."
Words Spoken by the first human to set foot on Mars... "Now What?"

Offline Bob Hunt

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"The memories will be so thick, they'll have to brush them away from their faces."

Amen, Peter!

Bob

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2020, 12:55:10 PM »
Man oh Man, the memories. The "shoot out" between Lampione and Schaffer, Sabre up against the new Stunt Machine. Too many to tell. They altered the course of Jose Modesto and my own life. God Bless them all.
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline AMV

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2020, 02:13:48 PM »
Hello again everyone,

Every pilot's Round 1 flights (traced versions) are now posted for everyone's edification and/or amusement.  See here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzf_6BV2VDoaU9utTMk1vmnWljT6Dxpl0
I hope to finish and post the rest this weekend.

Enjoy,
-Andrey
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you thought you heard was not what I meant.

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2020, 02:58:30 PM »
Hello again everyone,

Every pilot's Round 1 flights (traced versions) are now posted for everyone's edification and/or amusement.  See here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzf_6BV2VDoaU9utTMk1vmnWljT6Dxpl0
I hope to finish and post the rest this weekend.

Enjoy,
-Andrey

WOW!!  Man, that's awesome!  Quite impressive!!

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2020, 05:17:21 PM »
Awesome Andrey!!!
AMA 13001

Offline AMV

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2020, 07:58:05 PM »
Awesome flying by all!
I can't thank you guys enough for giving me this opportunity.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you thought you heard was not what I meant.

Offline jfv

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2020, 06:53:52 AM »
Quite enlightening.  I think I'll have to rename some of my shapes.  Very impressive and an outstanding tool.  Kudos on your work. 
Jim Vigani

Offline TDM

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2020, 07:22:24 AM »
Hello again everyone,

Every pilot's Round 1 flights (traced versions) are now posted for everyone's edification and/or amusement.  See here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzf_6BV2VDoaU9utTMk1vmnWljT6Dxpl0
I hope to finish and post the rest this weekend.

Enjoy,
-Andrey

And everyone watching their flights are saying holy smokes can I screw up any more than that.
For the looks it seems like Bob Daly and Luciano and Will too close to call Will a little better.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Jim Damerell

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2020, 01:44:10 PM »
Quite enlightening.  I think I'll have to rename some of my shapes.  Very impressive and an outstanding tool.  Kudos on your work.

I'm glad you said that, saves coaching time.

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2020, 02:57:10 PM »
I grew up in NJ and my Mom always told me I'd be murdered for sure if I went to NYC but maybe for this contest I should risk it....
Steve

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2020, 03:14:48 PM »
Just curious - are results posted anywhere?

Ken
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Offline EricV

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2020, 04:29:24 PM »
I grew up in NJ and my Mom always told me I'd be murdered for sure if I went to NYC but maybe for this contest I should risk it....

I grew up in Massachusetts,  near the NH border... Mom went to NY frequently for fashion shows, she was a wedding dress maker... she said whenever I needed to go to NY to keep $5 in my shoe and $5 in my pocket. She told me it really ticked the muggers off when you didnt have any money, so the $5 in my pocket was for the muggers, and the $5 in the shoe was to get home afterwards.  %^@

Offline Frank Imbriaco

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2020, 04:40:38 PM »
 Interesting.

 I think this could be a way to obtain unbiased  judging.

No need to search for judges on contest day. More time for flying.  Just set up the camera, which I'm sure has a learning curve .

 Display the flights  on a forum like this without names of contestants or location of the event. 

Readers are the judges- from the comfort of their armchair.

 Results can come right away or a few days later.
 .

Offline AMV

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2020, 06:57:46 PM »
Quite enlightening.  I think I'll have to rename some of my shapes.  Very impressive and an outstanding tool.  Kudos on your work.

Jim, I haven't done anything yet. This is just the stock VideoF2B application with a few of my first tweaks (the sphere's visible outline in magenta and the 30cm parallels above and below the equator in dashed lines).

My real work on this is about to begin.  My winter is ruined for sure.. ;D
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Offline AMV

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2020, 08:39:17 PM »
Hey everybody,

Traced videos from Round 2 are now posted right after Round 1, here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzf_6BV2VDoaU9utTMk1vmnWljT6Dxpl0.
As we remember, the wind kept changing all afternoon. The judges had the luxury of jogging to a favorable location on demand, while the camera must stay put once it's recording...so in some of these, the maneuvers are far to one side or even off-frame a bit (sorry Bob!).

Also, the passerby trucks and cars on the road kept stealing the tracing show. I hope to remedy that soon in the software.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 09:19:34 PM by AMV »
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Offline AMV

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2020, 12:07:06 PM »
Phew! Traced videos of the finals are now posted. I think I'll take a little break.

Enjoy,
-Andrey
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you thought you heard was not what I meant.

Offline jfv

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2020, 02:01:17 PM »
Awesome work!
Jim Vigani

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2020, 03:36:35 PM »
Seeing your pattern traced for the first time is a humbling experience but after doing a bit you see the tremendous value.  It takes time to distinguish between one time errors and trends.  It also is good to view the pattern from different angles.  I video mine from 90 degrees to the left of the wind.  First you get to see the wings in the maneuvers and spot visible trim issues you might not see from upwind and second you get to see your arm movements instead of a butt shot.

What is missing is the "flat screen" that the flier sees.  Even viewed from dead down wind, tracings have distortions compared to what the flier sees.  It would be nice to have a tracing from a camera on the flier's shoulder but how do you trace the only thing Not moving!

Ken
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Offline AMV

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2020, 05:13:46 PM »
You're right, Ken. For the moment we are missing the view from the pilot's eyes.  A camera lens distorts things in a slightly different way from how our mind perceives the scene (especially the ultra-wide-angle lens I used at the meet).  The software "undistorts" the original footage, but only in the sense that straight lines remain straight.  Parallel lines do not remain parallel, that's just how perspective view is defined.  Just look at the tree trunks at the edges of the frame.  Our mind is a far more powerful image processor than we realize.

However, let me leave a teaser here. Let's pick on someone who's not part of the NYCLST group, who shall remain nameless (ahem, ahem..) I'm attaching a few images here from a practice flight we recorded about a month ago. The first one shows the trace from video just after the inside loops were finished.  The second and third images show views of that traced path after I extracted the points into 3D.  To be fair, those are orthographic views (like 3-view drawings of an airplane, where the viewer's eye is at infinity), not perspective views (such as what the camera and our eyes actually see).  I simply plotted them in the standard "front, right, top" engineering views for a quick look.  But it's just a bunch of points in 3D!  Consider this as food for thought: imagine software where you can see the flight sphere and interactively rotate it to view the recorded maneuver from any angle you wish to see.  Keith Renecle's neat visualizations of the four-leaf clover using Blender come to mind.  Dump the points into software like that and enjoy 8) BTW, the units in the plots are in meters.

One thing I did not include in these videos is the ideal shape of the maneuvers for reference.  When drawn, they'd appear distorted according to rules of perspective view, but you'd have a better idea of what they should look like to the judges' eyes even if performed to the side.  The ideal figures are in an unpublished version of the software that is currently a work in progress between Alberto and me.  No worries, just give me some time.

I agree that it's possible to spot trends -- while reviewing multiple flights by the same pilot, even my inexperienced eyes could point out a certain "signature" in similar maneuvers for any given pilot.

It's good that filming from 90 degrees to the wind works for you to catch certain interactions between you and the model.  However, there is one limitation when filming for the purpose of 3D tracking. The camera has to be (mostly) upwind so that during a maneuver the model does not cross the visible outline of the sphere (drawn in magenta in the videos).  That outline is the Achilles' heel of this software.  As I noted in the VideoF2B thread earlier, there is a significant deadband when the model crosses that region, around 15ft where the model simply cannot be detected.  So my strategy has been to find a wide-angle lens that allows me to get close enough to the flight sphere such that none of the maneuvers cross that line when I'm upwind.  Another desirable outcome is to have the 45į latitude end up within that outline because the overhead eight is performed up there.  The overall results become marginal when my position is not ideal (see Rounds 2 and 3), or when the overhead eights end up below the 45, but I'm still really happy with the videos I collected from the meet.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you thought you heard was not what I meant.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2020, 10:29:09 PM »
I'm still really happy with the videos I collected from the meet.
So am I.   I really hope that you get to the end of this with a system that can be the start of a real tracking system.

What I did with my own tracking was to score my patterns before generating and viewing the tracked version.  Amazing how forgiving the human eye is and how easily it is tricked.  To the naked eye, the impression of a tight corner is far more important than how tight the corner really is.

Ken
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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2020, 08:16:59 AM »
I watched all the videos  and I wish I was there competing. I think all the flyers can take some valuable information from the videos, and make a plan on how and where do they need to improve.
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Offline AMV

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Re: NYCLST 2020 Stunt Championship
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2020, 08:58:33 AM »
I watched all the videos  and I wish I was there competing. I think all the flyers can take some valuable information from the videos, and make a plan on how and where do they need to improve.

It's not too late!
Why just wish when you could go to the Cleveland meet? https://stunthanger.com/smf/event's/2020-cleveland-area-stunt-championships-september-19-20 Be my guinea pig, please!  #^  I spoke with the CD and he supports the idea.  He also says a bunch of high-end flyers are expected there (whose names I can't even remember).

NY State officially removed Ohio from the "restricted states" list yesterday, so we're free again. I plan to be there to participate in PAMPA and record flights for science. I will post the videos on the same YT channel.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you thought you heard was not what I meant.

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