Author Topic: Looking for Strega kit improvements... (Read 2177 times)

Rafael Gonzalez · « **on:** September 26, 2013, 05:16:24 PM »

Cheers!

I have a friend (Jim Carpenter) that is building a Brodack Strega kit. I saw the kit and was in love! It has real balsa blocks (One looks like a baseball bat!) and the fuselage sides are one piece unlike some laser cut kits that jag the fuse to glue the pieces together. I will be putting it on my building list.

I have searched for Strega hints in here but nothing comes up. Has anyone built a kit or knows of some hints for improvements? He has his wing finished but it has a very sharp leading edge (1/4 in. sq.) I told him that he needed to round that quite a bit. Too bad is built or I would have said to replace it with 3/8 sq.
Any other suggestions?

Rafael Gonzalez · « **Reply #1 on:** September 26, 2013, 05:28:16 PM »

OK I went on the building section and a search found the leading edge hint. Makes me feel OK for a hacker!

But that was all...

steven yampolsky · « **Reply #2 on:** September 26, 2013, 06:16:55 PM »

Leading edge hint was for an ARF version which is VERY different from the kit. As a matter of fact, they are entirely different construction wise. The kit is VERY solid and can be built as per plans.

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #3 on:** September 26, 2013, 09:58:18 PM »

The comment about the leading edge is still a valid one even for the kit. It should have a good radius on it.
The other main comment is that this is a large airplane and is very easy to build heavy. All efforts should be directed to keeping the weight reasonable. I personally would say try for under 60 oz, and believe me that is not easy with the kit.
The other comment is that this is a very thick large wing and soaks up power like a sponge. Think Big Powerful Engine!!! and make everything very stiff...flaps should be covered with carbon or glass ( a couple of layers) and use a lot of hinges.

It's really a very good flying airplane but is pretty high aspect ratio and therefore needs to be very straight!!! and stiff...

Wimpy flaps and/or a wimpy rear fuselage will kill it's performance and make it impossible to trim properly.
You could say that's true of any stunter but the higher the aspect ratio the more critical it becomes.

Oh yeah...big airplanes with big engines need big arm muscles in the wind...

Good luck!

Randy Cuberly

Perry Rose · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2013, 04:27:33 AM »

I built the kit last fall/winter/spring, it's that labor intensive. First I just sanded the leading edge until I was happy with the radius. Then I found a magazine with a picture of "Baby Carmen" a WW-2 A-36 Invader dive bomber. Then I molded the entire top of the plane and saved the blocks for this years project. If you search for the Collings Foundation they own the A-36/P-51 that is Baby Carmen. It won Grand Champion at Oshkosh 2 years ago. I would add a picture but it won't let me. Power is a Double Star .60 RE and it weighs 62 ounces after flight trimming. It flys well. Dumping the blocks and using molded balsa sheets will save lots of weight quick and easy. Cut down the landing gear spats and use one piece each. There are some construction photo's at www.perrystoys.blogspot.com click on year 2012 on the left side and then scroll down.

Brian Massey · « **Reply #5 on:** September 28, 2013, 12:05:53 AM »

As already said, weight is important. It will take a lot of work to get it under 60oz, but at least aim for that. And, the radius of the leading edge . . . nice and round. I bought a used Strega ARF and installed a Saito 62. Good power for that size plane. And yes, they pull! Some day I'll recover it and round that leading edge.

Brian

linheart smith · « **Reply #6 on:** September 28, 2013, 06:12:30 AM »

Rafael,

How about coming down to the 107 flying field so we can advise you about the Strega in person.

Linheart

proparc · « **Reply #7 on:** September 28, 2013, 07:45:32 AM »

While I applaud you guys for trying to give good advice,where did you come up with the "under 60 oz." deal!! The plane is not a Nobler! I never heard that one before and i've been around a looong time. Hopefully, Jose Modesto,(he's the expert) will weigh in here and set the record straight.

The Strega is a straight-up PatternMaster consequently, Patternmaster parameters apply here. Windy Urtnowski's own Strega,(the designer\builder) was in the low 70's and that's with him using all his experience and every trick in the book.

And I know because, I have the complete building sequence tapes straight from Windy. The Patternmaster\Strega was designed for the low to mid 70's oz range and motors strong enough to make it rock and roll at that weight.

Rafael Gonzalez · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2013, 09:14:29 AM »

AWESOME!

Thank you all for the inputs!!! I will let my friend know and I think I will build one this Winter...(try to). I will visit the 107th field and see the guys there... Thank you!

Best!

Raf

billbyles · « **Reply #9 on:** September 29, 2013, 03:42:26 PM »

Quote from: proparc on September 28, 2013, 07:45:32 AM

While I applaud you guys for trying to give good advice,where did you come up with the "under 60 oz." deal!! The plane is not a Nobler! I never heard that one before and i've been around a looong time. Hopefully, Jose Modesto,(he's the expert) will weigh in here and set the record straight.

The Strega is a straight-up PatternMaster consequently, Patternmaster parameters apply here. Windy Urtnowski's own Strega,(the designer\builder) was in the low 70's and that's with him using all his experience and every trick in the book.

And I know because, I have the complete building sequence tapes straight from Windy. The Patternmaster\Strega was designed for the low to mid 70's oz range and motors strong enough to make it rock and roll at that weight.

There are plenty of other modelers who have been around for a "loooong" time & have built the Strega. These guys are well aware that it is not a Nobler; they have stated that 60 oz. is a good goal and I agree, even if it goes somewhat over 60 oz. Windy's airplanes, while beautifully built with fabulous finishes, were not the lightest airplanes around. Granted, they are a big airplane but that is no reason to give up on trying to keep the weight to a minimum. For one thing, Windy used equal length panels and advocates adding 2 to 3 oz. of wingtip weight. Going to 3/8" to 1/2" offset will enable much less tip weight. My Impact, with 3/8" offset & 700 sq. in. at 59 oz. uses 5/8 oz. tip weight. The Strega wing is a bit larger but should not need 2 to 3 oz. of tip weight.

Dave Fitzgerald's Thundergazer is around (+/-) 650 sq. in. wing area & uses a P.A. .75 with tuned pipe, so your comment about using a strong engine is right on. Your condescention is showing a bit here.

proparc · « **Reply #10 on:** September 29, 2013, 05:21:27 PM »

Quote from: billbyles on September 29, 2013, 03:42:26 PM

Dave Fitzgerald's Thundergazer is around (+/-) 650 sq. in. wing area & uses a P.A. .75 with tuned pipe, so your comment about using a strong engine is right on. Your condescention is showing a bit here.

While I certainly have the utmost respect for your opinion, Jose Modesto and I used to hang out at Big Jim Greenaways house. Jose Modesto is THEE living expert on these ships, (he has been building them since his teens) and he has built more of them than anybody. Jose can absolutely confirm Patternmasters giving superb performance at 80 oz. Granted, the ship at that weight is a handful but, it CAN DO IT!

The Impact, (I saw your red Impact fly) and the Thundergazer have VERY different aerodynamics than the Strega\Patternmaster. Paul Walker himself, told me not to go over 62 oz. on the Impact. The Thundergazer has its roots in the Randy Smith\Bill Werewage World Champion ships and, anything close to Patternmaster\Strega weight and the ship would be DOA on the table. The Strega\Patternmaster has one of the thickest airfoils ever put on a CL Stunt ship and, it is a true 750 class ship. The aforementioned planes are not.

Granted, you can build any plane, to any weight you want but, the issue is what was the plane designed for. Big Jim designed The Patternmaster\Strega to do at 74 oz. what other ships can do at 64 oz., if you had the power!! The Greenaway ST61 was without question one of the most powerful ST61’s to ever to hit the field. Jose Modesto still has a bunch of them.

The motor was developed to drive the Patternmaster\Strega thru the pattern without ever coming up short against anyone in the ponies. Now remember, this was before Bob and the tune pipe motors. But, prior to the tuned pipes, and of course the PA’s, the Greenaway ST61 WAS IT.

Will the Strega\Patternmaster fly at sub 60 oz-sure. Is lighter better-generally. But this issue of absolute lightness was debated on another thread and I won’t re-hash it here. The ship was designed to perform at around a certain weight, different than the other ships of its day. This was Big Jim’s genius, he figured out how to get his design to do at 10 oz heavier, what other ships did at 10 oz lighter.

And, I still personally feel he never fully received the credit he deserved for his incredible body of work, and his amazing creative genius.

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2013, 01:01:56 AM »

Quote from: proparc on September 29, 2013, 05:21:27 PM

While I certainly have the utmost respect for your opinion, Jose Modesto and I used to hang out at Big Jim Greenaways house. Jose Modesto is THEE living expert on these ships, (he has been building them since his teens) and he has built more of them than anybody. Jose can absolutely confirm Patternmasters giving superb performance at 80 oz. Granted, the ship at that weight is a handful but, it CAN DO IT!

The Impact, (I saw your red Impact fly) and the Thundergazer have VERY different aerodynamics than the Strega\Patternmaster. Paul Walker himself, told me not to go over 62 oz. on the Impact. The Thundergazer has its roots in the Randy Smith\Bill Werewage World Champion ships and, anything close to Patternmaster\Strega weight and the ship would be DOA on the table. The Strega\Patternmaster has one of the thickest airfoils ever put on a CL Stunt ship and, it is a true 750 class ship. The aforementioned planes are not.

Granted, you can build any plane, to any weight you want but, the issue is what was the plane designed for. Big Jim designed The Patternmaster\Strega to do at 74 oz. what other ships can do at 64 oz., if you had the power!! The Greenaway ST61 was without question one of the most powerful ST61’s to ever to hit the field. Jose Modesto still has a bunch of them.

The motor was developed to drive the Patternmaster\Strega thru the pattern without ever coming up short against anyone in the ponies. Now remember, this was before Bob and the tune pipe motors. But, prior to the tuned pipes, and of course the PA’s, the Greenaway ST61 WAS IT.

Will the Strega\Patternmaster fly at sub 60 oz-sure. Is lighter better-generally. But this issue of absolute lightness was debated on another thread and I won’t re-hash it here. The ship was designed to perform at around a certain weight, different than the other ships of its day. This was Big Jim’s genius, he figured out how to get his design to do at 10 oz heavier, what other ships did at 10 oz lighter.

And, I still personally feel he never fully received the credit he deserved for his incredible body of work, and his amazing creative genius.

Mr Proparc...as usual I have to tell you that you are full of it...You can decide what IT is.
74 to 80 oz airplanes can be made to fly the pattern, I know I've had a couple of them. However it is not something I would ever recommend for someone to do. If you had ever flown one of these monsters in a 15 mph wind you would understand why.
I have two of Big Jim Greenaways ST60s and they are both very fine running engines that regulate very well...Powerful...Not particularly. And everyone else I've known that had one said the same thing. I'm not sure where you come up with all your facts but they never seem to jive with mine and I know where mine come from.
My only comment to you is the next time you decide to rip whatever I say...BUZZ OFF!
Personally I know you have no idea what you are talking about!
Don't get the idea that I don't like you just because I don't...

Randy Cuberly

peabody · « **Reply #12 on:** September 30, 2013, 06:44:46 AM »

As I recall....Winfred built two models the winter prior to the Lincoln Nats.....
One was a green Cardinal (he called it the Harley) that had sheeted wing and came in at 61 ounces with everything but fuel.
I believe that he opted to fly the other...a yellow critter(?)

As Windy delved more and more in carbon fiber, the planes generally were under 70 ounces

jose modesto · « **Reply #13 on:** September 30, 2013, 07:18:17 AM »

Randy. Milton and I became friends with Big Jim in 1972. Milton was present wen the first and second Pattern Masters were built and flown. His knowledge base is a result of direct contact with Big Jim. First PM weight 65 oz the second PM was smaller and it weight was 55oz the third PM was even smaller and came in at 53oz I got to own that model.
I was present for all four pattern Master.
The PM that most are familiar with weight 68 oz with a merco 60 with two plugs. 750+ square inches that is light.
Windys model were always to light according to Big Jim.
Randy there are others with direct knowledge of the PM
You also mentioned that straga was a high aspect ratio. first what is a high aspect ratio to you.
Windy competed with Big Jim high aspect ratio model they were called BJ (Big Jim) from 83 to 88 after 88 windy started to fly Pattern Masters. Windys 20 pointer was 63 oz which later became the green PM that came in second to Paul Walker in 1992. That model weigh was 71oz with a pipe and wrap around header on a tiger 60.
I will post some photos.
Bob Baron won the NATS with a PM

Jose Modesto