Latest ama magazine

[Steve Helmick]

Stunt News and Model Aviation both arrived on the same day, sometime earlier this week. I finally thumbed through the Model Aviation today, and it was all I could do to put it straight into the recycling bin. I waited a good 10 minutes.  Steve

[wwwarbird]

As I read through all this again, we have for gotten that there are people that fly other events besides stunt at the NATS.  At least at the last NATS I attended.  I miss the NATS because of the fellowship of the modelers in all the facets of competition.   Some one mentioned RC Pattern relocating from Muncie, but they are still sanctioned by the AMA.   Before the new radios the RC events were scheduled on separate days or frequencies set so there was no interference during flying of the events.  RC has so many events that they can't do it in one or two weeks. it takes most of the summer.  The indoor guys I don't believe have ever had a NATS in Muncie, so they fly else where.


I think some of the guys complaining on here have never attended a NATS even when they were moved around the country.  If I were a billionaire I would try to get the people together and find a site to hols a CL NATS at different locations, of course it would be with an AMA sanction.   The SIGs have a hard time now getting people to come to Muncie and help.  AMA used to give a small pittance for those that volunteered to help but not any more.   They just provide a site/facilities for the different events.  I've helped with racing and carrier events and know how hard it is to get help just to come.    I see now and it happened at last few racing and carrier NATS that contestants had to help time and count laps.  The stunt fraternity might be able to pull off a Precision Aerobatic Control Line NATS, but I don't think the other CL events could do it.

 Doc,

 You must have missed my comment in Reply #144, "As I've already repeated, I'm only using the NATS event as an example of what could be done with any and all organized C/L activities"

[john e. holliday]

Stunt News and Model Aviation both arrived on the same day, sometime earlier this week. I finally thumbed through the Model Aviation today, and it was all I could do to put it straight into the recycling bin. I waited a good 10 minutes.  Steve

You didn't take time to read Bobby's fare well article?

[Mark Mc]

It still looks the same, it just now has a larger base.  The Walker Cup is in far better shape since PAMPA took responsibility for it.

Keith

I have never seen the Walker Cup.  I did a search and can't find a picture.  Can someone post a picture of what it looks like?

Mark

[Mark Mc]

Don't believe me? Look on some of the youtube RC crash videos and watch the carnage. When an RC pilot loses control, his aircraft becomes an unguided missile. I've seen multi-thousand dollar jets crash and start fires. Imagine one crashing into a crowd.
My 2 cents,  Bob Z.

Bob, way back when I lived just outside Augusta, GA, I was invited to fly at the local airshow with a couple of other pilots from our R/C club.  They gave us about a half hour window to fly while the full scale planes were taking a lunch break.  I put up only one flight on the first day of the three day airshow.  All I could think about while I was flying over the runway was, "What happens if I get a glitch or some kind of radio interference?"  There were hundreds of people around, and it was totally nerve wracking.  I'll never do anything like that again.

Mark

[Brett Buck]

I have never seen the Walker Cup.  I did a search and can't find a picture.  Can someone post a picture of what it looks like?

Mark

  Here you go. Trophy on left, nutcase in disturbing horse mask on right.

  Brett

[Dave Hull]

Must be a Tennessee Walker...?

Divot

[Brett Buck]

Must be a Tennessee Walker...?

    That particular horse's ass spent considerable time in Kentucky. He would wear blue, not orange...

      Brett

[Bob Hunt]

Brett described it correctly; it's the Walker TROPHY. It is not a "cup." The Walker CUP is the award that is presented every other year at the F2B World Championships to the winning team, and it too was donated by Jim Walker I'm told. I have been privileged on a few occasions to have been a part of winning teams. Unfortunately, I was once responsible for the team not winning the Walker Cup. Sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug...

Huge kudos again to Al Rabe who had the Trophy restored to its original elegant condition. The only downside was that the box took up a lot of room in the car! When I won it in 1976 I was driving a 327 powered, large Chevy wagon; so room was not an issue. With today's smaller cars the winner might have more of a challenge getting it home...

Note that on the cover in the photo below that they referred to it as the Walker Cup. They were wrong...

Later - Bob Hunt

[Chuck_Smith]

Wow, lots of really good thoughts here.

PAMPANATS - interesting. I guess my thought here is would it, perhaps, be better to have an all-inclusive controline NATs? Carrier? Speed? Scale? To really promote the hobby I think it would be beneficial to include all of it. From a spectator perspective, carrier, speed and certainly combat are probably more interesting than stunt.

Traveling NATS, heck, we did it 40 years ago. Without the internet and with C-gas free flight. I'd hate to think we've become so inept that we couldn't do the same these days for strictly CL. Venues ideas aren't so hard, I'll toss one out: Go to race tracks. They have insurance out the ying-yang, you can make all the noise you want, they don't get upset about a little oil and fuel as long as it's off the racing surface, and if they don't need to run race operations and you organize trash cleanup they'll rent the facility pretty reasonably. They have camping, showers etc too. That's one idea from one person and none of us is as good as all of us together. My point of view is that if you eliminate R/C and Free Flight, venues become MUCH easier to find and procure.

One of the fun parts, I always thought, was traveling and the adventure aspect of the traveling NATS. Heck, I remember we went to Oshkosh one year and flew at the EAA airport, then the next year we were in Louisiana! You got to meet new people, see new places, etc. It was a lot of fun, I can tell you that.

My $.02? It's doable. We'd need a two or three year window to make it happen. It's change, and lot's (maybe most?) of people don't like change, but ongoing change and continuous improvement is one of the first things I look for in a healthy organization. [Caveat being that the change is aligned with the best interests of the organization, which is not always the case.]

Stunt - while not mainstream - is healthy. There are ongoing technical improvements, never has there been such a great selection of high-quality gear available. There are more kits available than in years past - and they're not Sterling die-crushed boat lumber. You can build a formidable competition ship that's laser cut from  light wood. Competition-ready engines these days are fantastic. Electric makes contest-winning consistency available to anyone - although I still think if we're going to award appearance points to reward modeling skills, an extra 5 points for an IC engine makes sense! ARFS greatly reduced the entry barriers to newcomers. All the ingredients are here to attract new members.

I firmly believe that we need now is public outreach. Some of the guys up this way from a few towns and cities are getting organized. Since there's a dozen or so R/C fly-in events within our sphere of influence, we're putting together a little traveling circus to go to these events and display and demo.  Realistically  I figure if we can pick up three new CL'ers a year it's worth it. Heck, our AMA district rep might actually see some controline models and flyers and have to admit they exist!!! I'd pay money to see that. I wonder what would happen if all CL guys and gals did that across the country?

We all know how much fun CL flying is. That's why we do it.

In today's world, we don't need a magazine. We don't need a headquarters. We don't need no stinking badges. We can reach out to millions with social media. What we need is a few people with the vision, passion and talent to start the next chapter of controline.  Negativism? Screw that. We have used cars on the moon dammit! (Start humming Battle Hymn of the Republic here.) Losers come up with excuses, winners find a way.

All kidding aside, I'd like to lay down a challenge here of not  writing posts of why it can't be done, but rather ideas and brainstorming on how it could be done. I'll bet that if we use that approach the thing could pick up some energy and snowball rather quickly.


Maybe all this drone BS is really an opportunity.

Chuck

All of the above is IMHO and I respect and defend your right to disagree.

[john e. holliday]

All inclusive Control Line NATS would be nice.  Precision Aerobatics needs circles for official flights and practice.  Equipment required, stop watches, pull test scales, score sheets and a few odds and ends.  Speed and racing require caged circles and watches plus things.  Carrier requires a deck and watches plus score sheets.  Combat needs circles for official flights and practice plus watches and streamers. and what not.  I could go on and on.  Just sit down some time while the dope is drying and try to ay out an all inclusive Control Line NATS.  Some of the SIG's(Special interest Group) have most of the need equipment.  Man power is the big if in all of it. Also would CL Scale be included?   

The World Champs only had 4 events and yes it involved a lot of world countries.  But ask Bill Lee how much of his life did he put into the 2004 World Champs in Muncie IN.   Or ask the person who is/was the main contest director for the NATS.  I've had a chance to sit in the NATS headquarters farm house and see some of the daily stuff.  Brenda Schutte could probably tell you a lot about just the CL end of it.

I know I would not even attempt to try and organize it.

[wwwarbird]

Wow, lots of really good thoughts here.

PAMPANATS - interesting. I guess my thought here is would it, perhaps, be better to have an all-inclusive controline NATs? Carrier? Speed? Scale? To really promote the hobby I think it would be beneficial to include all of it. From a spectator perspective, carrier, speed and certainly combat are probably more interesting than stunt.

Traveling NATS, heck, we did it 40 years ago. Without the internet and with C-gas free flight. I'd hate to think we've become so inept that we couldn't do the same these days for strictly CL. Venues ideas aren't so hard, I'll toss one out: Go to race tracks. They have insurance out the ying-yang, you can make all the noise you want, they don't get upset about a little oil and fuel as long as it's off the racing surface, and if they don't need to run race operations and you organize trash cleanup they'll rent the facility pretty reasonably. They have camping, showers etc too. That's one idea from one person and none of us is as good as all of us together. My point of view is that if you eliminate R/C and Free Flight, venues become MUCH easier to find and procure.

One of the fun parts, I always thought, was traveling and the adventure aspect of the traveling NATS. Heck, I remember we went to Oshkosh one year and flew at the EAA airport, then the next year we were in Louisiana! You got to meet new people, see new places, etc. It was a lot of fun, I can tell you that.

My $.02? It's doable. We'd need a two or three year window to make it happen. It's change, and lot's (maybe most?) of people don't like change, but ongoing change and continuous improvement is one of the first things I look for in a healthy organization. [Caveat being that the change is aligned with the best interests of the organization, which is not always the case.]

Stunt - while not mainstream - is healthy. There are ongoing technical improvements, never has there been such a great selection of high-quality gear available. There are more kits available than in years past - and they're not Sterling die-crushed boat lumber. You can build a formidable competition ship that's laser cut from  light wood. Competition-ready engines these days are fantastic. Electric makes contest-winning consistency available to anyone - although I still think if we're going to award appearance points to reward modeling skills, an extra 5 points for an IC engine makes sense! ARFS greatly reduced the entry barriers to newcomers. All the ingredients are here to attract new members.

I firmly believe that we need now is public outreach. Some of the guys up this way from a few towns and cities are getting organized. Since there's a dozen or so R/C fly-in events within our sphere of influence, we're putting together a little traveling circus to go to these events and display and demo.  Realistically  I figure if we can pick up three new CL'ers a year it's worth it. Heck, our AMA district rep might actually see some controline models and flyers and have to admit they exist!!! I'd pay money to see that. I wonder what would happen if all CL guys and gals did that across the country?

We all know how much fun CL flying is. That's why we do it.

In today's world, we don't need a magazine. We don't need a headquarters. We don't need no stinking badges. We can reach out to millions with social media. What we need is a few people with the vision, passion and talent to start the next chapter of controline.  Negativism? Screw that. We have used cars on the moon dammit! (Start humming Battle Hymn of the Republic here.) Losers come up with excuses, winners find a way.

All kidding aside, I'd like to lay down a challenge here of not  writing posts of why it can't be done, but rather ideas and brainstorming on how it could be done. I'll bet that if we use that approach the thing could pick up some energy and snowball rather quickly.


Maybe all this drone BS is really an opportunity.

Chuck

All of the above is IMHO and I respect and defend your right to disagree.

 Chuck,

 In another attempt to clarify my suggestion I've "bolded" your first comment above referring to my hypothetical "PAMPANATS" event. I'll repeat myself again, my comment in Reply #144, "As I've already repeated, I'm only using the NATS event as an example of what could be done with any and all organized C/L activities"

It's nice to see that you get the idea, and yeah, it would be a significant change, but it is completely doable. It seems my term "PAMPANATS" has everyone assuming I'm talking about only the stunt events, which is not the case. I only coined the name "PAMPANATS" as a one event example and a comparison to the existing NATS event.
 The entire "picture" or "idea" is that everyone currently involved with organizing and running any Control Line event of any type would be doing everything they're currently doing but WITHOUT ANY AMA INVOLVMENT. This isn't reinventing the wheel, it's simply moving on and ditching the AMA connection, the connection that no longer has any interest in bettering anything to do with our hobby. The overall concept is very simple, and I'm at a loss as to how to clarify the thought any more than that.

[Chuck_Smith]

Wayne,

Yes, understood. And, given the AMA's purpose, they would probably have to underwrite the event if it was hosted by an AMA chartered club and an AMA approved CD was involved, so that may not even be an issue.

I totally agree it's doable and it's only a matter of whether there's enough combined will within the CL community to make it happen.

Chuck

[Steve Scott]

   For once, you are exactly right. Unfortunately, what they are doing is selling traditional modeling "down the river", no matter how sincere they are about it.

     Brett

I recall in the traditional days I could walk into the LHS, buy a C/L kit, appropriate engine, prop, fuel tank, the correct fuel, covering, dope, bellcrank, wheels, lines and handle from someone who even knew what all the stuff was.

AMA didn't sell traditional modeling down the river,  the consumers did.  There are several LHS in the Twin Cities which carry Sig kits but good luck getting an engine or other required components.   On the other hand, a dad can walk in with his kid and take home a ready-to-run RC car, airplane or quad.

I belong to 1 C/L club and 2 area R/C clubs.  The R/C guys are surprised C/L is still flown these days.  Newcomers quickly dismiss it, saying they would get too dizzy.

[wwwarbird]

I recall in the traditional days I could walk into the LHS, buy a C/L kit, appropriate engine, prop, fuel tank, the correct fuel, covering, dope, bellcrank, wheels, lines and handle from someone who even knew what all the stuff was.

AMA didn't sell traditional modeling down the river, the consumers did.

 Not true, as far as the AMA is concerned anyway. The bulk of the point here is that for years now the AMA has shown zero attempt to preserve "traditional modeling", escpecially the C/L segment. Instead, they proclaim their "future" as whoring themselves out to the quad/drone market, completely snubbing the "traditional modelers" that have supported their existence from their inception. The ones here who "get it" get it, the ones who are still drinking the AMA's Kool-Aid apparently never will. 

[Ken Culbertson]

Not true, as far as the AMA is concerned anyway. The bulk of the point here is that for years now the AMA has shown zero attempt to preserve "traditional modeling", escpecially the C/L segment. Instead, they proclaim their "future" as whoring themselves out to the quad/drone market, completely snubbing the "traditional modelers" that have supported their existence from their inception. The ones here who "get it" get it, the ones who are still drinking the AMA's Kool-Aid apparently never will. 

I wonder how the rubber free flight bunch felt when control line started dominating?  It is not that most of don't agree that the AMA is not what it used to be it is just IMHO that the solution would be no different than the disease.  Things change, when we started CL was the "cool" thing and Stunt was the top of the heap.  Now it is not.

We have a dedicated section in the magazine.  How do you think the 90 or so events that don't have one feel.  Do you think the people that fly those events are drinking the Kool-Aid too? Do we need 40 or so new AMA's?
We already function pretty much like our own organization right now.  Do you see a bunch of fliers at local contests complaining about how the AMA is ruining their sport?  I don't.  In fact. I don't see much complaining about anything other than the weather.  Now if you can fix that I am on board.

Lighten up, Stunt at our level (especially as you get older) is fun - ENJOY IT.

Ken

[Chris McMillin]

I think the last traveling Nats was 1996, so 22 years ago. AMA used to spend their money prepping for and operating the Nationals. Now since they have built careers with salary and benefits for employees that contribute little to flying model airplanes.
Chris...

[curtis mattikow]

I do hate to say this...but it's OVER.
Whatever AMA was...and whatever you wanted it to be...it's over.
We lost.  And lost big.
It's a democracy.
CONSISTENTLY...the ten percent of members who voted CONSISTENTLY voted for the incumbents and status quo.
There have been a few people to run who had different ideas...Frank Tiano...Lawrence Tougas...and they got TROUNCED by whoever was the incumbent or the inside AMA guy.  This has gone on for the last twenty years.
The direction is not going to change. 
AMA has become something different from the organization I loved and supported for so many years.
IF my ideas about what AMA should be were shared by a majority, things would be different.
The fact that we just hired Chad Budreau, who is an epic failure, to be executive director kind of says it all.
The fact that we have Rich Hanson, who has been another complete failure at his previous job, now as president, speaks volumes also.
Ahhhh...well.  That's life.  We lost.
I'm going to pick Duco Cement off my fingies now...I'm just talking here, I'm not upset anymore.

[john e. holliday]

You think FF people were upset over CL.  Look what happened when the first ignition engine flew at the NATS back then.

[RogerGreene]

Hi,

The AMA magazine doesn't have C/L articles in it because no one has written one. There is plenty of talent here at Stunt Hanger you just have to write and take photos and submit it to AMA. How is control line going to continue if the older experienced modelers don't get off their butts and do something constructive to our hobby? Hey, AMA will pay MONEY for articles. So what is stopping YOU...

Just saying.

[curtis mattikow]

Hi,

The AMA magazine doesn't have C/L articles in it because no one has written one. There is plenty of talent here at Stunt Hanger you just have to write and take photos and submit it to AMA. How is control line going to continue if the older experienced modelers don't get off their butts and do something constructive to our hobby? Hey, AMA will pay MONEY for articles. So what is stopping YOU...

Just saying.

I respectfully suggest you go back and read the entire thread, because what you say is not true.

[RogerGreene]

What part??

[Ken Culbertson]

I respectfully suggest you go back and read the entire thread, because what you say is not true.

Can Sparky filter this so Bob Hunt doesn't see it?

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

Ahhhh...well.  That's life.  We lost.
I'm going to pick Duco Cement off my fingies now...I'm just talking here, I'm not upset anymore.

Let it dry and the natural oils in your skin will loosen it up and it will come off with warm water.  Share your view on the AMA but what is the point of trying to change it.

Ken

[curtis mattikow]

What part??

The part about the reason there are no control line articles is because nobody submits them.

[curtis mattikow]

Let it dry and the natural oils in your skin will loosen it up and it will come off with warm water.  Share your view on the AMA but what is the point of trying to change it.

Ken

No way! Picking glue off my fingers is still one of the great simple pleasures in life!

[Ken Culbertson]

LOL    Show me flier who has never glued his fingers together.  Skill in building is not learning how to put on a 20 point finish, it is learning how to scrape off CA without cutting yourself.

Ken

[RogerGreene]

The part about the reason there are no control line articles is because nobody submits them.

That's the whole idea behind of what I said!!!

You have to put how-to control line articles in the magazine to get control line back in view of potential control line modelers.

[Dan McEntee]

LOL    Show me flier who has never glued his fingers together.  Skill in building is not learning how to put on a 20 point finish, it is learning how to scrape off CA without cutting yourself.

Ken

    Us cagey old veterans chew the glue off our fingers! Works with all brands and types. I especially like the taste of Ambroid!
    Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[curtis mattikow]

    Us cagey old veterans chew the glue off our fingers! Works with all brands and types. I especially like the taste of Ambroid!
    Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

If you want to glue your fingers together with Ambroid, though, you have to clamp them overnight...

[Mike Keville]

Whatever the reason(s) - and they are many - I'm sure glad I quit the Academy of Multirotors & ARFs last year.  They're become irrelevant.  Lawrence Tougas was right: They've "lost their way".

[wwwarbird]

I wonder how the rubber free flight bunch felt when control line started dominating?  It is not that most of don't agree that the AMA is not what it used to be it is just IMHO that the solution would be no different than the disease.  Things change, when we started CL was the "cool" thing and Stunt was the top of the heap.  Now it is not.

We have a dedicated section in the magazine.  How do you think the 90 or so events that don't have one feel.  Do you think the people that fly those events are drinking the Kool-Aid too? Do we need 40 or so new AMA's?
We already function pretty much like our own organization right now.  Do you see a bunch of fliers at local contests complaining about how the AMA is ruining their sport?  I don't.  In fact. I don't see much complaining about anything other than the weather.  Now if you can fix that I am on board.

Lighten up, Stunt at our level (especially as you get older) is fun - ENJOY IT.

Ken

 There you go Ken, even saying it yourself, you don't need them and have proven you can function perfectly well without them. I realize that and that's a large part of why I'm suggesting the evolution or "Revolution". It's one of the biggest reasons that, IMO, justifies everyone in the C/L segment telling the AMA to take a hike. Again, this should mean a lot more to everyone involved than the dead horse beating gripes about magazine content, that's not the point here. Bottom line is that the AMA is disrespecting you and is interested in doing nothing more than buying more Kool Aid mix with YOUR MONEY. Yes, things do change, and it's well past time for the C/L community to make this one. I'll also suggest a review of my capitalized opening comment in Reply #144 if you need another reason, I would hope it means something.


 BTW, a light scuffing with 80 grit sandpaper works very well for taking dried CA off of your fingers. 

[Ken Culbertson]

.... you don't need them and have proven you can function perfectly well without them.

Actually I think it shows we can function perfectly well Within them.  I don't think you have given full thought as to the amount of effort required to reform.  Club sanctions, flying sites requiring AMA membership, contest coordination, international recognition and that is just the hard stuff.  Who is going to rewrite the rule book?  Who is going to mediate the conflicts that come from rewriting the rule book.  What about dues?  Less than AMA -  not possible.  Will people that fly other events like Free Flight or RC have to join both?

Please, we all feel disappointment with the AMA but it really is the only game in town.

Ken

[wwwarbird]

 I actually have considered all of the above Ken, and have also considered and realize the effort it would take. Collectively though, with determination, it could be done. Yes, initially it could be viewed as a big change, but as many here know, including yourself, you're all doing 90 plus percent of all the work already. All I'm suggesting is to do the same, with everything you're already doing, but without AMA involvement. There would be no real need to rewrite any rules, and AFAIK there are no actual laws saying that any flying site has to be AMA sanctioned. Also, any club can make their own rules and agreements as far as to the usage of their flying site, all they have to do is do so.

 I've also realized throughout this discussion that none of this is likely to ever happen, which really is too bad, because it should. 

[wwwarbird]

Will people that fly other events like Free Flight or RC have to join both?

Ken

 I don't know why these "what ifs?" keep coming up about the other segments either, I've stated multiple times in this conversation that I'm only talking about Control Line activities, the others can run their show however they wish.

[Ken Culbertson]

I don't know why these "what ifs?" keep coming up about the other segments either, I've stated multiple times in this conversation that I'm only talking about Control Line activities, the others can run their show however they wish.

Look,  even if I thought this was possible, which it isn't, I would most likely not support it for one reason.  To pull this off you are going to have to convince at least 4 FAI committees to drop the AMA and recognize this new group.  As that is happening, the AMA will be fielding a team that will already be recognized.  You pull that one off and you belong in the State Department.

It is obvious that you do not compete, or no longer compete so you are looking at the AMA differently.  I still compete and still want to compete more.  Change is something that should never be undertaken for it's own sake.  There has to be an outcome that is better than the current situation and I just don't see that happening.
That doesn't mean that I don't share your analysis of the AMA, I do.  I just think it is better to improve it from within.

Merry Christmas - Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

If you want to glue your fingers together with Ambroid, though, you have to clamp them overnight...

LOL  But then they are likely to warp from the shrinkage...

ken

[Wayne J. Buran]

The latest issue arrived yesterday 12/24. Merry Christmas from the AMA. Total time from the mail box to the trash can was less than ten minutes. I have had enough so 2019 will be my last year. I will save myself $60.00 a year. There were some good times like the 70 and 72 NATS and a lot of nice people to remember.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Wayne Buan
AMA 14986

[Chuck_Smith]

Ken,

I will respectfully disagree. There will be challenges - I agree with that, but they can be overcome.  FAI? Really? Why would they care who our sanctioning body is?

I'd humbly suggest that a few folks with the desire get together and do an exploratory project to see what REALLY would have to happen and what the impacts would be. Make a fact-based assessment and then report out.

This would not be an overnight transition if it occured. It would be irresponsible to do that anyway. The current system works for now but yes, the future is questionable.

Rules? We already have rules. Why would they need to be re-written? Other organizations now use AMA rules.

I'll throw another wild idea: Maybe the MAAC would sanction US controline flyers and clubs. They do a pretty good job of it in Canada now. They already have reciprocity with the AMA, it wouldn't be much of a leap to take memberships from the US. If you visit their website they actually advertise the entire spectrum of aeromodeling including video of CPLA. 

  

I suspect MAAC would be nervous about poaching members from the AMA but I'm not all that convinced that we're nothing more than feed-money for the AMA's vision of Dronetopia anyway.


I'm pretty sure that if the will is there we can find a way not to have the NATs in the middle of nowhere.

We need to start an outreach to the other CL disciplines, gauge interest and let them know they're stakeholders in the process. This is a team project.

What I believe now is this: The AMA is more worried about it's own existence as an organization than it's support of its membership and the hobby it was created to serve. If they continue down the road they're on now we're going to be faced with a call to action whether we want to or not. We should at least lay the groundwork to be prepared for that day. If we really care about our hobby we should.


Chuck

Feel free to disagree - dialogue is progress.

[Ken Culbertson]

Ken,

I will respectfully disagree. There will be challenges
Chuck

Feel free to disagree - dialogue is progress.

Now this approach makes sense.  None of us at this point have any clue what the actual support would be and how the AMA would react.    I am a business consultant by profession and one of the biggest mistakes made by small business is underestimating how people will react to change.  We all tend to think that down deep everybody agrees with us which is just plain wrong.  Sometimes you find out that almost nobody agrees with you.  That is one of the reasons I keep throwing out the "what if's".  It is what I do for a living, can't help it.

The AMA is most likely to have one of two reactions.  AMF or "Like Hell you are"   What would happen for example if the AMA pulled the reciprocity with MAAC across the board if they sanctioned this new organization?  What if  both the AMA and this new group presented teams to the FAI?  If you think that nobody would participate in a team selection for the AMA if we split - think again.

No, the only way this can have a prayer of success is if the split is friendly and supported by a minimum of about 80% of the active competition fliers,  especially those of us that fly other disciplines who would be forced to join both.

Just because I keep throwing out "What If's" doesn't mean that I would not support such a move if it is popular,  but just like we don't expect to win competitions with an untrimmed under powered ship, we cannot be successful with any venture like this unless we have answers (not educated guesses) to all of the "what if's" before we start down that road.

So far this discussion has really only been among a handful of us.  That tells me that it is not the hot topic that we think it is and so far, I have not seen posts from anybody that I feel has a true insight into the inner workings of either the AMA or FAI.  I certainly don't have either.  Whatever the case, we need to keep it civil. 

Merry Christmas - Ken

 

[John Watson]

A sign of the times just electric C/L and ARF C/L...……….
 

[FLOYD CARTER]

A sign of progress.  MODEL AVIATION magazine, (and AMA leadership) is quickly taking the place of the now defunct R.C. MODELER magazine.  They are almost there.  All they need do is eliminate the occasional 1 or 2 pages devoted to control line reporting.  Without Bob Hunt, they now have the perfect excuse to put all C/L reporting behind them.

[wwwarbird]

What I believe now is this: The AMA is more worried about it's own existence as an organization than it's support of its membership and the hobby it was created to serve.

Chuck

 That's another good way to put it. 

[wwwarbird]

(A) Look,  even if I thought this was possible, which it isn't, I would most likely not support it for one reason. (B)To pull this off you are going to have to convince at least 4 FAI committees to drop the AMA and recognize this new group.  (C)As that is happening, the AMA will be fielding a team that will already be recognized.  You pull that one off and you belong in the State Department.

(D)It is obvious that you do not compete, or no longer compete so you are looking at the AMA differently.  I still compete and still want to compete more. (E)Change is something that should never be undertaken for it's own sake.  (F)There has to be an outcome that is better than the current situation and I just don't see that happening.
That doesn't mean that I don't share your analysis of the AMA, I do.  (G)I just think it is better to improve it from within.

Merry Christmas - Ken

 Respectfully Ken,

 (A) It would be possible with enough followers, obviously not likely, but entirely possible.

 (B) If the hypothetical new organization were to become the premier and/or largest group of C/L competitors, and were no longer competing in AMA C/L events, I would think the FAI would need to take note. 

 (C) Not if they don't have one.

 (D) Correct.

 (E) True. This idea is not just for it's own sake though, it's proposed because the AMA has lost all interest in the C/L segment.

 (F) PRECISELY the problem!

(G) Please refer to answer "F", the AMA has had their chance and has proven their lack of desire, it's not going to happen.

[wwwarbird]

No, the only way this can have a prayer of success is if the split is friendly and supported by a minimum of about 80% of the active competition fliers,  especially those of us that fly other disciplines who would be forced to join both.

 Probably true as well, admittedly very unlikely, but possible. And I'll repeat again, I'm looking at the C/L segment only, no other disciplines.

 Respectfully to all,

 I'm just hoping to spark some fresh thought and initiative toward the future of our C/L hobby with all of this harping. Even though I don't personally compete I have considered and very much respect those who do. It makes me sick when I think of all the great C/L names and events throughout the history of the AMA that they seem to have completely forgotten and turned their backs on. Chuck Smith put it very well with his comment in Reply #189, "The AMA is more worried about it's own existence as an organization than it's support of its membership and the hobby it was created to serve."  The same is true with so many things these days, but this is one we could actually do something about. I feel very strongly that the AMA is of no real benefit to any of us anymore, competition or otherwise. Our group is simply continuing to follow the sheep IMO.
 
 I also feel very strongly that they have given all of you (and me) a direct slap in the face with the way they have evolved while ignoring their (which is YOUR) history, and even more so with their current "visions" of the future. That complete lack of vision and respect from the AMA toward our group is why I feel it fully warrants a movement to consider and work at creating an all-new, C/L only, organization for competition and sport. Everyone knows, you're doing 90% of the work already, just make it your own.  

[wwwarbird]

Please, we all feel disappointment with the AMA but it really is the only game in town.

Ken

 Currently, but is doesn't have to stay that way.

[Will Hinton]

Just something to consider; this seperation to a new and c/l only thing was attempted many years ago and fell flat for lack of ability to procure insurance that was affordable and for lack of leadership.  I don't remember just how far back that was, but I'm sure guys like Brett and others will have the memories necessary.  I was out of the loop for several years but that happened while I was still flying in competition.

[john e. holliday]

I vaguely remember when we tried to get the FAI F2 events to join together in order to have one voice for competition.

[Ken Culbertson]

I vaguely remember when we tried to get the FAI F2 events to join together in order to have one voice for competition.

Except for 1968-69 I was pretty active and involved through somewhere around 1983 and I don't remember anything more than talk so it must have been after '83.

ken

[Trostle]

For the record:

Doc Jackson started an initiative in the early 80's called the National control Line Coalition.  Doc published a mostly monthly newsletter (8 to 16 pages) from early 82 for several years.  This group was "dedicated to the preservation, enhancement and promotion of Control Line model Aviation as a sport and hobby in its many varied forms".  The "Directors" were the then current presidents of each functioning control line organization known as the AMA recognized Special Interest Groups (SIG's).

The effort sort of died for lack of support.  Certainly not for the lack of energy that Doc and a handful of others expended to get this up and running.

In 1977-78, a group in the South organized two AAAA Control Line Championships in Winston Salem.  These were well organized and well run contests, though attendance was probably not more than what would be expected at any other "regional" contests.  There are probably reasons that these were not continued, but surely some of the reasons would center on finding/maintaining suitable venues, insurance, finding sponsors, finding organizers for the various events, and getting enough participants to make the effort worthwhile.  It should be noted that the AMA rules still have provisions for AAAA contests other than the Nationals.

In the preceding posts to this thread, there have been suggestions that go something like this:

People should band together   WHO?  WHERE ARE THEY?

Someone else should get organized    WHO?  WHERE ARE THEY?

This is all doable if ever there could be a collective effort to organize    WHO?  WHERE ARE THEY?

A few folks should get together and see what can happen     WHO?  WHERE ARE THEY?

So, with all of these "ideas" that offer little in the way of any specific initiative for any individuals to actually do something, what vision is being served that offers more now than we get with the few effective CL SIG's (yes, thankfully recognized by the AMA) and a Nationals flying site that is being maintained (at least somewhat by the AMA)?

Doc Jackson's NCLC and his Gazette essentially died for lack of support, interest and contributions.  John Brodak's CL World magazine was not continued for perhaps many reasons, but among them were surely lack of support, interest and contributions.  So, where is the LEADERSHIP, support, interest and contributions going to come from for a "New non AMA Control Line Group"?  I do not think more needs to be asked of the current leadership of the few effective CL SIGs that we fortunately now still have.

Keith