stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Robert Zambelli on December 04, 2018, 10:23:38 AM
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I counted around 21 pages of drone related CRAP ~^
That's about ONE SIXTH of the total number of pages in the magazine.
And, the ama is now offering a special issue called "drone pilot". :X :X
I am so disgusted with that rag that I won't even pass it on. >:( >:(
Maybe it'll be a good shotgun target.
Bob Z.
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It's hard to understand why AMA devotes so much print to drones. A very few AMA members play with drones, and then an even smaller number stick with it for any time. The magazine does not begin to reach the real drone market, which is non-modelers. Perhaps the advertisers are hoping to tap into customers who are more than just casually interested in playing with toys.
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Well I just renewed with AMA and I wonder about you guys. Yes drones(really they should be called quad copters) is the fad right now. You think the free flight guys complained back in the day when control line became the main event/type of plane? I have ran across some CL stuff or stuff I could apply to my control line flying. Granted there have been some issues I went through in no time, but some I have saved. S?P
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I know I have no business commenting on this post because this is probably going to really upset someone, but it's not intended to, by any means. But the same point was brought up by one of my local flying buddies regarding the lack of control line articles, photos and such. With about 5 other guys standing around, I asked "What did you submit and when did you submit it" ????? The silence was deafening :o!!
At that point a very brief discussion was held relating how on any given flying session, we have anywhere from two to ten guys showing up nearly every flying session, with nearly every one of them doing their own building, covering, painting, modifying, repairing, engine, airframe, lines and flightbox maintenance. Not one of them, including me, has taken the time to put together anything that could even come close to being print worthy :-\.
As such, what else, assuming other guys around the country who do and like what we do and like .... if nobody is taking the time to write and submit .... what should we expect to be published :-\?? Again, the silence was deafening until an old Fox 35 on an old VooDoo fired up :-\!!
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what Jim said....
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What Doc and Jim and TJ said. Grow up guys.
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Of course the cover drones extensively. Just follow the money.
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I counted around 21 pages of drone related CRAP ~^
That's about ONE SIXTH of the total number of pages in the magazine.
And, the ama is now offering a special issue called "drone pilot". :X :X
I am so disgusted with that rag that I won't even pass it on. >:( >:(
Maybe it'll be a good shotgun target.
Bob Z.
Just did a count of drone vs CL pics in this issue. The score was 34-6. And at 6 I thought CL was doing well, given recent issues.
Gary
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Just paying the bills.
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Sorry...but I just can't see any logic in calling these "things" Model Airplanes! In my humble opinion they just don't meet that definition. Models of WHAT?
I could be wrong but I cant remember, in my 70 year association with Model airplanes, any amount of coverage in a major AMA magazine that even came close to this last atrocity. I somewhat doubt that there has ever been such a coverage of an entire Nationals Contest that rivals it.
For what it's worth...I've been grown up for many years and give the AMA just as much money for membership as anyone else. BUT have never seen any fragment of Model aviation treated so lavishly!
Frankly if these things truly are the "future" of model aviation I will probably give it up and just concentrate on competitive shooting. I consider them about as interesting as designing outside toilets. Functional but not any real fun!
Actually I will happily turn the AMA over to these Toys! I give this "Fad" about 6 years before most of these guys give up and move on to something else that they can buy and break!
There...Now I'm completely "All Grown Up".
Randy Cuberly
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Guys' ....Yes I'm going to say it. Some of you really need to wake up and smell the coffee and it's not the folks who are complaining that this applies to!
Control Line generates no advertising, Free Flight generates no advertising. As Randy ( the other Randy) pointed out...Though the AMA is supposed to be a member supported organization, they truly are NOT! They are in fact a monetarily supported organization supported mostly by their advertising in "Model Aviation" (still don't know why they call it that), and Control Line and Free flight just don't support that.
No matter how many CL and FF articles are submitted they will always get mediocre coverage simply because they don't monetarily support the usage of the magazine space!
I support AMA with my membership fee because it's necessary to compete in sanctioned contests. They provide insurance (albeit somewhat questionable secondary insurance) that allows coverage to suppliers of flying space! Actually that's fairly valuable! To be fair however CL and FF members should be allowed to pay a reduced membership fee that only supports the insurance program without the stupid Model Aviation mag which will never be able to afford the luxury of printing CL and FF articles.
Yeah I know..."Good Luck With That".
Randy Cuberly
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I thoroughly enjoy the magazine.
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Here we are, beating the dead horse, again and again, again and again, again... HB~>
Myself, I'm about to begin my third year as a NON member. I absolutely refuse to support the AMA ever since their president proclaimed quads and/or drones as being the "Future of Model Aviation". At this point, and for quite some time (years), they have entirely lost touch with any semblance of true aero-modeling and the roots of their own history. With that in mind I'd already been debating cancelling for quite some time anyway, but that "Future of" proclamation was the last straw for me, I'm DONE with them.
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Not only does the people not submit articles or pictures to Model Aviation, look at Stunt News. How many times has Bobby Hunt begged for input to Stunt News. I know I'm as guilty as any one else at not submitting any thing to either publication. Do good with what I post on here. HB~>
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On the topic of submissions, yes, I'm sure they could always use them. I'm also sure that there have been many submissions made over the years that never saw or were even considered for print.
Here's an idea for them, the AMA (the people you're paying money to). Annually, they have a large Control Line contest that's held right in their own front yard, it's called the NATS. Maybe one or two of them could put down the donut and coffee, get up out of their cubicle, stretch, go outside and talk to the competitors, including the beginners, take a whole bunch of pictures, and write their own ARTICLE for the magazine on the event. When do you suppose the last time was that they published a feature article on the C/L NATS? Gee, maybe they could even publish the results! What a concept. D>K
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"On the topic of submissions, yes, I'm sure they could always use them. I'm also sure that there have been many submissions made over the years that never saw or were even considered for print". wwwarbird
Years ago, before this quadcopter junk was ever printed in Model Aviation, I submitted 4 different articles pertaining to control line spread out over a period of months. Not only did they not get printed, they(AMA) never even acknowledged they received the articles. I conferred with Allen Brickhaus about the subject matter before I submitted the articles and they were very pertinent to control line.
I doubt very seriously if I was the only one who took the time to do this.
Wayne was exactly right.
Mike
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There are some good posts here that explain our plight. Since Model Aviation has a "reader comments" section, I suggest that you send these exact comments to them and see if they actually print them.
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There are some good posts here that explain our plight. Since Model Aviation has a "reader comments" section, I suggest that you send these exact comments to them and see if they actually print them.
Guy, when was the last issue that had reader input printed? I doubt that any serious negative letter about the AMA's love affair with a reluctant new lady on the block would ever see the light of MA! Also I seriously doubt that MA would cover the fact that stores like Wall Mart that sell bazillion drones are now posting a note in that department that reads, "Contact with the FAA may be required before flying any drone".
Joe Just
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I have not seen any signs/notes about contacting the FAA at Wally World, Harbor Freight or even Ace Hardware where I've seen the quad copters/drones being sold. I even asked the store manager at Ace about the requirement to sign up with FAA. S?P
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Well, I happen to be one who does the required work and so I have submitted construction articles to magazines. My work has been published in several leading magazines, including MODEL AVIATION. In addition, two covers of MA have featured my planes!
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Guys' ....Yes I'm going to say it. Some of you really need to wake up and smell the coffee and it's not the folks who are complaining that this applies to!
Control Line generates no advertising, Free Flight generates no advertising. As Randy ( the other Randy) pointed out...Though the AMA is supposed to be a member supported organization, they truly are NOT! They are in fact a monetarily supported organization supported mostly by their advertising in "Model Aviation" (still don't know why they call it that), and Control Line and Free flight just don't support that.
No matter how many CL and FF articles are submitted they will always get mediocre coverage simply because they don't monetarily support the usage of the magazine space!
I support AMA with my membership fee because it's necessary to compete in sanctioned contests. They provide insurance (albeit somewhat questionable secondary insurance) that allows coverage to suppliers of flying space! Actually that's fairly valuable! To be fair however CL and FF members should be allowed to pay a reduced membership fee that only supports the insurance program without the stupid Model Aviation mag which will never be able to afford the luxury of printing CL and FF articles.
Yeah I know..."Good Luck With That".
Randy Cuberly
Respectfully...just want to correct something. The advertising revenue in Model Aviation does not even come close to covering the cost of publishing the magazine, which has long been a money loser.
So if you are not seeing CL articles...that's not the reason why.
Far and away the biggest source of revenue for AMA is membership dues.
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Going back a few years I remember a guy who got his model articles published. I would see his articles 2-3 times a year. I bet you remember them,they were the large cardboard CL models with .50-.60 size motors in them. They looked unsafe to me with there metal bellcranks mounted on a piece of 1/8" plywood between the cardboard sides of the model. I often wondered if many plans were sold. He submitted them and got them published.Good for him if that is what the AMA was getting. He also got them into FM.
In the early days of PAMPA I submitted small articles and they all got published.
Ed
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It's hard to understand why AMA devotes so much print to drones. A very few AMA members play with drones, and then an even smaller number stick with it for any time. The magazine does not begin to reach the real drone market, which is non-modelers. Perhaps the advertisers are hoping to tap into customers who are more than just casually interested in playing with toys.
They made a gross miscalculation some years ago that these drone guys would join AMA and none of them did.
AMA refuses to admit the direction that they have taken was just wrong, and they still keep hoping things will somehow change...but they won't.
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Going back a few years I remember a guy who got his model articles published. I would see his articles 2-3 times a year. I bet you remember them,they were the large cardboard CL models with .50-.60 size motors in them. They looked unsafe to me with there metal bellcranks mounted on a piece of 1/8" plywood between the cardboard sides of the model. I often wondered if many plans were sold. He submitted them and got them published.Good for him if that is what the AMA was getting. He also got them into FM.
In the early days of PAMPA I submitted small articles and they all got published.
Ed
I've had just about 100 articles published in various model magazines, including the AMA one, over the years. I'd say they can always USE more submissions, but I doubt these days they are going to publish much about CL, whether or not you submit it. It's just the direction the organization has taken, foamies and drones.
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Is now the right time for the AMA to concentrate solely on model aviation policy and providing insurance ?
Printing an unpopular magazine maybe hurting them.
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Is now the right time for the AMA to concentrate solely on model aviation policy and providing insurance ?
Printing an unpopular magazine maybe hurting them.
I do not understand the question, can you rephrase it?
I'm OK with publishing the magazine, even at a loss. As long as the magazine is GOOD.
It's the last magazine published in the USA, save for Model Airplane News, and I highly doubt MAN will survive more than a year or two.
Really...look around. Aside from maybe Stunt News, which is a very focused thing...all the other magazines in the USA are...GONE. Over.
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Years ago. The late Kenn Smith use to write articles for MA right just before or right at the time that MA went to every other issue for CL articles. Kenn was told by MA not to send in any more articles. Kenn told them that he could supply a full years worth of articles and would be more then happy to do so. Their reply was thanks BUT NO THANKS.
The AMA has forgotten their roots and basically have told C/L and F/F to go look elsewhere.
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Years ago. The late Kenn Smith use to write articles for MA right just before or right at the time that MA went to every other issue for CL articles. Kenn was told by MA not to send in any more articles. Kenn told them that he could supply a full years worth of articles and would be more then happy to do so. Their reply was thanks BUT NO THANKS.
The AMA has forgotten their roots and basically have told C/L and F/F to go look elsewhere.
I would agree. BUT...there was ONE editor who was a big CL guy and he went way overboard with CL articles. That's the other side of the coin. Forgetting drones, keep in mind that today the vast majority of AMA members do mostly RC. So it's no surprise that CL and FF get short shrift.
That being said... I WANT the CL and FF articles. Even if they do not appeal the the majority. Because it's NOT a for profit magazine...why not just make it as cool and interesting as possible? Where else will you see that stuff?
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I have not seen any signs/notes about contacting the FAA at Wally World, Harbor Freight or even Ace Hardware where I've seen the quad copters/drones being sold. I even asked the store manager at Ace about the requirement to sign up with FAA. S?P
Doc, Jut got back from Wall Mart. The sign is still there, and is almost exactly as I quoted earlier. I asked the clerk in the isle as we stood next to an end cap with at least 30 Drones for sale @ $129 each. He said that the sign means what it says; anyone purchasing a drone is made aware that FAA info on the sign is correct. Then in the check out lane as I waited for Ginny to catch up with me I saw a guy with one of he drones in his cart. I asked him if he was aware of the FAA involvement. Basically he told me to go pound sand up my....!!
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Doc, Jut got back from Wall Mart. The sign is still there, and is almost exactly as I quoted earlier. I asked the clerk in the isle as we stood next to an end cap with at least 30 Drones for sale @ $129 each. He said that the sign means what it says; anyone purchasing a drone is made aware that FAA info on the sign is correct. Then in the check out lane as I waited for Ginny to catch up with me I saw a guy with one of he drones in his cart. I asked him if he was aware of the FAA involvement. Basically he told me to go pound sand up my....!!
Don't worry, that drone is going to get flown ONCE and then get tossed in the corner of the garage along with the Bread Maker his wife bought the year before and the Bowflex execise machine he used twice. Drones, at least the hobby types, don't have any staying power, we are already far onto the backside of the power curve here, they are going the way of the Pet Rock.
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Respectfully...just want to correct something. The advertising revenue in Model Aviation does not even come close to covering the cost of publishing the magazine, which has long been a money loser.
So if you are not seeing CL articles...that's not the reason why.
Far and away the biggest source of revenue for AMA is membership dues.
Sorry but I would have to see the source of this information because I simply Do Not Believe It!
I do not for a minute believe that the membership fees would support the entire AMA organization period!!!
Randy Cuberly
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I do not understand the question, can you rephrase it?
I'm OK with publishing the magazine, even at a loss. As long as the magazine is GOOD.
It's the last magazine published in the USA, save for Model Airplane News, and I highly doubt MAN will survive more than a year or two.
Really...look around. Aside from maybe Stunt News, which is a very focused thing...all the other magazines in the USA are...GONE. Over.
Curtis :
There was a time in the 60s or 70s when the AMA published only a supplement to a magazine. If my memory serves me, the magazine was American Aircraft Modeler.
My point is that the magazine causes a great deal of dissension among the ranks, so it may be prudent for them to exit. BTW, I've been reading modeling magazines since the very early 60s so I think I've got a pretty sound basis of comparison .
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Sorry but I would have to see the source of this information because I simply Do Not Believe It!
I do not for a minute believe that the membership fees would support the entire AMA organization period!!!
Randy Cuberly
You may choose not to beleive it.
The magazine has always been a loss, at least for the last twenty years.
You can see the AMA budget for details.
Given that, you can also just add up the number of advertising pages and multiply them by $2000 a month(the "rack rate" for a page in MA, which nobody actually pays) and then you can add up about 100,000 actual paying AMA members at $75 a pop, and you can see for yourself.
I worked with MA magazine for many years as an author. I also worked with them for many years as an ADVERTISER, typically two pages a month.
Not sure where you got the notion that MA advertising revenue supported the AMA, it's not true, but you can choose to simply not beleive it...you need to do some research, and you might have your head turned around. I have found that some beleifs I held have been wrong. Once or twice! But I won't spend any more time trying to convince you...I has been my own personal experience that nobody ever gets their mind changed on the internet...people come into an argument with one idea and pretty much always come out the other side with the exact same fixed idea.
So...I don't really debate with people online, You are free to do so if you enjoy it!
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Curtis :
There was a time in the 60s or 70s when the AMA published only a supplement to a magazine. If my memory serves me, the magazine was American Aircraft Modeler.
My point is that the magazine causes a great deal of dissension among the ranks, so it may be prudent for them to exit. BTW, I've been reading modeling magazines since the very early 60s so I think I've got a pretty sound basis of comparison .
Correct, It was just a few pages in AAM.
Yes...the magazine has caused dissention since day one. Nobody asked the membership if they wanted it in the first place. Me, personally? I think it's a great thing, Well..,not with its present content. Which sucks. But better than no magazine.
BUT...the fact of the matter is...we are a dying breed. Right now there are MAYBE 100000 actual paying members, The number of members has been falsely inflated to 180000 or so with the simulator trailer scam and such...but I would be pretty certain that the number of actual members is going to drop rapidly as we die. Or lose interest. And no new modellers are made.
SOOOOO...expect the AMA to be in more serious financial straits in the future. And I would not be surprised a bit if the magazine is one of the things that goes by the wayside.
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The magazine has always been a loss, at least for the last twenty years.
You can see the AMA budget for details.
Not debating the accuracy of the above information either way, but in most cases the paid "bean counters" can make it all look however the boss wants it to look. Showing the magazine as a loss could just be a smooth way of discontinuing it all together, which I could easily see happening before long.
For the most part I'd agree with Curtis, and feel he is pretty much hitting the nail on the head with his comments in this thread.
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Not debating the accuracy of the above information either way, but in most cases the paid "bean counters" can make it all look however the boss wants it to look. Showing the magazine as a loss could just be a smooth way of discontinuing it all together, which I could easily see happening before long.
For the most part I'd agree with Curtis, and feel he is pretty much hitting the nail on the head with his comments in this thread.
Very true...there is plenty of "creative accounting" that goes on, particularly with the membership numbers, which are nothing like people think they are.
But in the case of the magazine...those numbers are not really hidden, the magazine has been at a loss for a long time, and that has been no big secret. They have always maintained that the magazine is REQUIRED to maintain their tax free status, saying that a newsletter of some sort is part of the federal requirements. There has never been any hint whatsoever that AMA has any intention whatsoever of discontinuting Model Aviation at any point...never seen an AMA official do anything but totally dismiss the idea. As a matter of fact, in the last ten years, they started a SECOND money losing magazine, Park Pilot..for the failed Park Pilot program.
My point being...YOU may be talking about getting rid of the magazine...I do NOT think AMA is talking about it. Me, myself? I want to see the magazine continue. But I want to see it full of rich, creamy, intense, luxurious articles about how to build Curtiss Headless Pushers from South African Babingawood and Valintin .001 Diesel powered team racers carved from a single block of carbon fiber by old men living in the Caucasus Mountains.
I have NO need to see another article about how to cut flaps into a RTF foamie RC job, or another "review" of a new Horizon RTF BNF UMX AS3X Micro Carbon Z, which flies perfectly out of the box, with no assembly required, and no input from the pilot required on the sticks...press the GO button and it flies the whole Aresti routine without your help,,,
Let those foam and drone guys do RC groups or whatever...none of them are even looking at the magazine anyway...
Maybe just let the serious modellers HAVE THE MAGAZINE. Can we have just that? Can you throw us that one little scrap of bone? Because the foamie dronies have everything ELSE the AMA has...
Let me be clear...there are many people who bash every single thing the AMA does. There are many people who conversely DEFEND everything AMA does. I am neither. I want to be fair.
But for me, it was very, very painful to watch over the years as a group of misguided people took over an organization I supported to much and was so passionate about and took it in such a terrible direction. Frankly, they turned their back on the people who brought them to the dance, all those people who were members for thirty plus years already. I hate to speak ill of the dead, but it all began with Dave Matthewson.
Yeah, I know, I just lit a fuse, but it needs to be said.
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I remember back in the 50-0's there used to be an annual issue that was printed that cover the Model Airplane Nationals. It also included a couple of articles on a plane. It was not part of the magazine subscription and I would buy/order it. But they all got ruined when my basement got flooded as well as all the other magazine I had up to that time. With the Nationals spread out like it is I can understand why they don't do it any more. How any remember the little paper issue that we would get in the mail every so often back in the 50's. My picture of my first Nobler was in one of the issues. I get the magazine now as it is part of being a member and I do read it D>K
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Today, I came across a "professional" drone pilot who works filming for the real estate field. He never heard of the AMA, even though he's been doing this for several years.
I gave him the last 3 issues of MA .
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But for me, it was very, very painful to watch over the years as a group of misguided people took over an organization I supported to much and was so passionate about and took it in such a terrible direction. Frankly, they turned their back on the people who brought them to the dance, all those people who were members for thirty plus years already.
Yep.
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I have NO need to see another article about how to cut flaps into a RTF foamie RC job, or another "review" of a new Horizon RTF BNF UMX AS3X Micro Carbon Z, which flies perfectly out of the box, with no assembly required...
Ditto to that one! LL~ LL~ LL~
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I remember back in the 50-0's there used to be an annual issue that was printed that cover the Model Airplane Nationals. It also included a couple of articles on a plane. It was not part of the magazine subscription and I would buy/order it. But they all got ruined when my basement got flooded as well as all the other magazine I had up to that time. With the Nationals spread out like it is I can understand why they don't do it any more. How any remember the little paper issue that we would get in the mail every so often back in the 50's. My picture of my first Nobler was in one of the issues.
Doc's AMA time started well before my own but I remember they used to do a separate "NATS Issue" that was actually pretty decent. I think it was somewhere around 2007 when they discontinued it though, probably a move in gearing up for "the future".
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I've been a life long member of the AMA, even when I wasn't active in modeling here and there.
The AMA isn't run by robots, it's run by great people and I strongly believe they know exactly what they are doing.
And they have reasons for everything they do.
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I've been a life long member of the AMA, even when I wasn't active in modeling here and there.
The AMA isn't run by robots, it's run by great people and I strongly believe they know exactly what they are doing.
And they have reasons for everything they do.
I respect your opinion. I don't really want to try to change it. For many years I felt the same way.
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I've been a life long member of the AMA, even when I wasn't active in modeling here and there.
The AMA isn't run by robots, it's run by great people and I strongly believe they know exactly what they are doing.
And they have reasons for everything they do.
For once, you are exactly right. Unfortunately, what they are doing is selling traditional modeling "down the river", no matter how sincere they are about it.
Brett
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For once, you are exactly right. Unfortunately, what they are doing is selling traditional modeling "down the river", no matter how sincere they are about it.
Brett
My OPINION, after lengthy conversations with Dave Matthewson and others, face to face...is that they do NOT have model aviation at heart at all. What they care about is the ORGANIZATION. The budget, the staff, the benefits, the revenue. They long ago lost sight of the hobby itself, It;s about AMA, but AMA was supposed to be about modellers.
Ever see Dave Matthewson fly a model? Ever? Even when I tried to stick a transmitter in his hands, he would not fly. Not that interested.
Yes, I feel like we were sold up the river.
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I've been a life long member of the AMA, even when I wasn't active in modeling here and there.
The AMA isn't run by robots, it's run by great people and I strongly believe they know exactly what they are doing.
And they have reasons for everything they do.
PS
Your opinion is shared by a majority of AMA members.
Mine is not.
It IS a democracy, and time and time again, the Membership has agreed with YOU when it comes time to vote.
Although only about 13 percent bothered to vote, those who did voted resoundingly for status quo.
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For once, you are exactly right. Unfortunately, what they are doing is selling traditional modeling "down the river", no matter how sincere they are about it.
Brett
Hi guys! Allow me to put forth a bit of an analogy. Just imagine our joint interest/hobby is a ship like the "African Queen" with the best interchangeable skippers and crew called the "AMA" responsible the the running of the ship. OK, got it! Now imagine that interest/sport/hobby is on a river called the "Way of the Future" an ever changing, winding river in life similar to the Nile, the Oranoco or even the good old Mississippi. Okay!!
No matter how skilled the crew, no matter how well built the ship, that river is going to contain and present some ever changing, unforeseen obstacles, trials, tribulations, rapids, sandbanks etcetera to include even changing it's course and position of the banks forcing the crew and us the passengers to constantly adapt, get seasick and puke, cleanup, paint, repaint etceteras. Does this make sense? In another example that many of us should remember, what would have happened if the crews on battleship row had bailed when the Japanese started their attack? Those troops had no control of what was about to happen. Thousands fought back as best they could with what they had even if it was just a pistol of rifle and, Yes, many made the ultimate sacrifice. Nonetheless, they did what they could under circumstances that they had no control over.
What does this mean to each of us associated with that ship .... simple, pitch in and help steer, bail, and support the crew, the AMA, as needed or jump ship and enjoy another lifestyle. But I don't think anyone who stay aboard should be like Shimei son of Gera, a man from the same clan as Saul’s family who cursed King David as he came out .... (2 Samuel 16:5-13). Just one man's opinion and thought .... in for a penny, in for a pound. (Having started something, one must see it through to its end, rather than stopping short; one must “go the whole hog”. English · Proverb)
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Hi guys! Allow me to put forth a bit of an analogy. Just imagine our joint interest/hobby is a ship like the "African Queen" with the best interchangeable skippers and crew called the "AMA" responsible the the running of the ship. OK, got it! Now imagine that interest/sport/hobby is on a river called the "Way of the Future" an ever changing, winding river in life similar to the Nile, the Oranoco or even the good old Mississippi. Okay!!
No matter how skilled the crew, no matter how well built the ship, that river is going to contain and present some ever changing, unforeseen obstacles, trials, tribulations, rapids, sandbanks etcetera to include even changing it's course and position of the banks forcing the crew and us the passengers to constantly adapt, get seasick and puke, cleanup, paint, repaint etceteras. Does this make sense? In another example that many of us should remember, what would have happened if the crews on battleship row had bailed when the Japanese started their attack? Those troops had no control of what was about to happen. Thousands fought back as best they could with what they had even if it was just a pistol of rifle and, Yes, many made the ultimate sacrifice. Nonetheless, they did what they could under circumstances that they had no control over.
What does this mean to each of us associated with that ship .... simple, pitch in and help steer, bail, and support the crew, the AMA, as needed or jump ship and enjoy another lifestyle. But I don't think anyone who stay aboard should be like Shimei son of Gera, a man from the same clan as Saul’s family who cursed King David as he came out .... (2 Samuel 16:5-13). Just one man's opinion and thought .... in for a penny, in for a pound. (Having started something, one must see it through to its end, rather than stopping short; one must “go the whole hog”. English · Proverb)
Good post. I respect your opinion, but I'm one of the guys who feels like they KNOW this river, and have been trying to tell the Captain for YEARS that there are rocks ahead, but the capatain will not listen.
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I don't feel like the future of model aviation is in drones.
I don't think drones ARE model aviation.
They are just something different.
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Good post. I respect your opinion, but I'm one of the guys who feels like they KNOW this river, and have been trying to tell the Captain for YEARS that there are rocks ahead, but the capatain will not listen.
;D LL~ LL~ Good one!! LL~ LL~
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Jim, ya know I loves ya. ... but to that point. .
Much like others here, I have sent in several articles. In fact, if there's one thing I'm "known" for, it's applying iron on covering. Not saying I'm good at it, but people seem to think I do ok and I comment on it a lot. Any how, I've sent article's about getting started in iron on, build articles, new kit build articles etc etc. I have received positive responses, but I've never been published in the AMA mag.
So I think a lot of us are trying to pitch in. But, it's a little discouraging to never see your work make the cut!
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I'm sorry for being negative about this whole thing. However, I really don't logically see any future for "Model Aviation".
When the current generation expires (perhaps as much as 20 years but probably closer to 12-15) model aviation will exist only in very small pockets with very little support from any current organization, especially the AMA!
I thought for a long time that only Control Line and Free Flight were in the last throws of existence but recent trips to several R/C flying fields have convinced me that it is also on it's way OUT.
I suspect that the AMA feels the same way I do and are grasping at anything (Drones) to stretch their existence a few more years. Personally I don't think that will work because I don't think the "Drone folks" are interested in any controlling organization! At least the ones I have talked to were not! Most of these guys are simply interested in the technology and in advancing that! They are not really interested in the idea of flight or competition or the "sport" of flying the things.
It's is a very different world now than the one I grew up in. I admit I really do not understand it and often wish I could go back to the old one! Hmmmm...does that make me Crazy, or just old and stupid!
Randy Cuberly
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Jim, ya know I loves ya. ... but to that point. .
Much like others here, I have sent in several articles. In fact, if there's one thing I'm "known" for, it's applying iron on covering. Not saying I'm good at it, but people seem to think I do ok and I comment on it a lot. Any how, I've sent article's about getting started in iron on, build articles, new kit build articles etc etc. I have received positive responses, but I've never been published in the AMA mag.
So I think a lot of us are trying to pitch in. But, it's a little discouraging to never see your work make the cut!
Bro Dane, I know what you're saying. Heck, I to have attempted to submit articles with no success, to date but I s'pose, other than the subject matter, my writing or composition just didn't make the cut or maybe it was the quality of the photos or selection of photos ???! Years ago, when I was on active duty I received a respectful rejection letter from a different magazine explaining that what I had submitted was good and interesting but it was too long and was too involved for them to edit thus if I wanted to rework it to meet their tight page, space, photographic and advertising requirements I was welcome to resubmit :-\. Yeah, my "pride" was a bit smited and I was somewhat insulted but I understood what was being said :'(. Apparently, I've made the same errors in a couple of submission to the AMA mag as well, I 'spose, but I never found out why and as such, again, I .... I chose not to resubmit >:(! Lazy, maybe, insulted, maybe, thought it was good enough, sure, would the composition have been of a style and quality that met their (AMA) publishing standards and even the standards and expectations of the other 99% of readers .... we'll never know because I gave up :-X.
On the other hand, I believe they, AMA Mag, pays a stipend for articles published, don't they ???? Well, if that's true, what and why should they pay for my or any "sub-par" articles? I'm sure you wouldn't nor would most editors pay for what doesn't meet what the "public/customer/reader"base wants and it is they, just as the boss on your job, who set the minimum standards and expectations for you to get your paycheck. Ya' don't have to like or agree with 'em but .... sometimes, as Curtis said "the captain will not listen." %^@ LL~ LL~
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I'm sorry for being negative about this whole thing. However, I really don't logically see any future for "Model Aviation".... It's is a very different world now than the one I grew up in. I admit I really do not understand it and often wish I could go back to the old one! Hmmmm...does that make me Crazy, or just old and stupid!
Randy Cuberly
Yep! Mr. C, I think we're in 'da same boat and da' leaks are comin' faster an' faster! By the way can I borrow your "Mae West"?? LL~ LL~
(p.s. I bet half the readers of this don't even know what one is!! LL~ LL~
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I'm sorry for being negative about this whole thing. However, I really don't logically see any future for "Model Aviation".
When the current generation expires (perhaps as much as 20 years but probably closer to 12-15) model aviation will exist only in very small pockets with very little support from any current organization, especially the AMA!
I thought for a long time that only Control Line and Free Flight were in the last throws of existence but recent trips to several R/C flying fields have convinced me that it is also on it's way OUT.
I suspect that the AMA feels the same way I do and are grasping at anything (Drones) to stretch their existence a few more years. Personally I don't think that will work because I don't think the "Drone folks" are interested in any controlling organization! At least the ones I have talked to were not! Most of these guys are simply interested in the technology and in advancing that! They are not really interested in the idea of flight or competition or the "sport" of flying the things.
It's is a very different world now than the one I grew up in. I admit I really do not understand it and often wish I could go back to the old one! Hmmmm...does that make me Crazy, or just old and stupid!
Randy Cuberly
I agree with everything you say, except...it's not NEGATIVE. It's just ACCEPTING THE REALITY that we are in. I am a serious RC flyer. Beleive me when I tell you RC is dying rapidly, it's not your imagination. In ten years, we will be lucky if there are HALF the people flying RC. Just how it is.
But I ACCEPT that.
What you say about AMA grasping at drones is RIGHT ON.
They are a big organization now, they take in about ten million dollars a year, plenty of salaries, plenty of travel expense accounts(`14000 a year for each of those unpaid VPs), all that at stake...they are no longer about models, they are about PRESERVING THE ORGANIZATION.
Me...I'm OKAY if the organization and membership shrank by half. It's inevitable.
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Bro Dane, I know what you're saying. Heck, I to have attempted to submit articles with no success, to date but I s'pose, other than the subject matter, my writing or composition just didn't make the cut or maybe it was the quality of the photos or selection of photos ???! Years ago, when I was on active duty I received a respectful rejection letter from a different magazine explaining that what I had submitted was good and interesting but it was too long and was too involved for them to edit thus if I wanted to rework it to meet their tight page, space, photographic and advertising requirements I was welcome to resubmit :-\. Yeah, my "pride" was a bit smited and I was somewhat insulted but I understood what was being said :'(. Apparently, I've made the same errors in a couple of submission to the AMA mag as well, I 'spose, but I never found out why and as such, again, I .... I chose not to resubmit >:(! Lazy, maybe, insulted, maybe, thought it was good enough, sure, would the composition have been of a style and quality that met their (AMA) publishing standards and even the standards and expectations of the other 99% of readers .... we'll never know because I gave up :-X.
On the other hand, I believe they, AMA Mag, pays a stipend for articles published, don't they ???? Well, if that's true, what and why should they pay for my or any "sub-par" articles? I'm sure you wouldn't nor would most editors pay for what doesn't meet what the "public/customer/reader"base wants and it is they, just as the boss on your job, who set the minimum standards and expectations for you to get your paycheck. Ya' don't have to like or agree with 'em but .... sometimes, as Curtis said "the captain will not listen." %^@ LL~ LL~
Like I said...I published about 100 model airpane magazine articles...including many to Model Aviation. Even five in one issue, many under different names. But EVERY ONE was submitted with the correct format, language, photos, and the like. They simply do not want to mess around with a lot of editing. Submitting an article CORRECTLY is part of the author's job.
Yes, they do pay for articles.
I have not submitted anything in years(it just got old, and most of the mags folded) so I do not know what the current pay rate is.
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For the record; the articles I submitted were in the correct format. I was asked a few clarifying questions, then a few they said, "these are perfect for the magazine". "We'll let you know when they will be included". I don't care about the money. I'm just saying, everyone says, no one is submitting articles. That's why there's no CL articles. I am just disagreeing with that statement.
Respectfully, of course. And, I don't doubt at all that less articles are being submitted. But the ones we do submit are not as cool, I suppose.
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For the record; the articles I submitted were in the correct format. I was asked a few clarifying questions, then a few they said, "these are perfect for the magazine". "We'll let you know when they will be included". I don't care about the money. I'm just saying, everyone says, no one is submitting articles. That's why there's no CL articles. I am just disagreeing with that statement.
Oh! ;) Okay, my bad!! Jus' that I figured I may have screwed up my compositions in someway and "jacked" myself. However, like you, I didn't give a hoot about the money .... I wanted to see "my name" in print!! Love 'dem braggin rights!! Didn't happen but like the late Muhammad Ali said, ".... look at me; I’m still pretty.’" LL~ LL~
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For the record; the articles I submitted were in the correct format. I was asked a few clarifying questions, then a few they said, "these are perfect for the magazine". "We'll let you know when they will be included". I don't care about the money. I'm just saying, everyone says, no one is submitting articles. That's why there's no CL articles. I am just disagreeing with that statement.
Respectfully, of course. And, I don't doubt at all that less articles are being submitted. But the ones we do submit are not as cool, I suppose.
The thing about formatting submissions properly was for Jim Carter, not you....
The thing about nobody submitting articles...well...yeah, as you say...people do. That's not to say that back in the heyday of many magazines they were not always struggling to fill the issue...quite often there was never enough suitable outside material, and the truth is most model magazines were filled with articles by the same few authors, the ones that consistently did the work, and quite often, they used many pseudonyms so that the table of contents would not look stupid with five articles by the same author.
As you say, though, it's not lack of material, it's an editorial choice for Model Aviation Magazine to suck.
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Oh! ;) Okay, my bad!! Jus' that I figured I may have screwed up my compositions in someway and "jacked" myself. However, like you, I didn't give a hoot about the money .... I wanted to see "my name" in print!! Love 'dem braggin rights!! Didn't happen but like the late Muhammad Ali said, ".... look at me; I’m still pretty.’" LL~ LL~
All those VP district news columns are dead wasted space to me...but people like them, because they get to see their picture plane and name there. People like that, everybody likes to see their name in print...even today, it has more mental impact than the web.
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As you say, though, it's not lack of material, it's an editorial choice for Model Aviation Magazine to suck.
WOW! You're quick!! ;D Now please don't get upset with me because I know I don't have anywhere near the "smarts/knowledge/experience" to do what I'm about to ask you. But .... IF you were the editor (I accept and realize you probably wouldn't want the job) but I'm curious .... what would you change, say, in the latest edition? What would the table of contents look like? How would you incorporate the varied interests of so many different genres and yet avoid the .... "editorial choice for Model Aviation Magazine to suck."? ???
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WOW! You're quick!! ;D Now please don't get upset with me because I know I don't have anywhere near the "smarts/knowledge/experience" to do what I'm about to ask you. But .... IF you were the editor (I accept and realize you probably wouldn't want the job) but I'm curious .... what would you change, say, in the latest edition? What would the table of contents look like? How would you incorporate the varied interests of so many different genres and yet avoid the .... "editorial choice for Model Aviation Magazine to suck."? ???
I would run articles about master modellers and the planes they have done, articles about America's Hobby Center, about Berkeley models, about Walter Umland handmade control line kits, about how to carve pilot figures, a review of a long out of production sterling stuka, full monthly control line and free flight columns, editorials about how our hobby is fading, all stuff that would not please everyone. I would not TRY to please everyone. I would just try to make it great.
And I would get fired right away!
PS after being on the internet since before Al Gore was born...nothing on the internet upsets me anymore, ever.
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I am coming from the point of view of writing a column for model aviation and feature articles for the magazine. Several points need to be said out loud. If you have good photographs (High resolution, not the small versions) or information send them to the right columnist, believe they love getting good photos and information sent to them. think of it this way.... You have a great contest and send pictures and contest report to a columnist (stunt news, model aviation, etc) and it gets published. Then someone reads it and says hey maybe I should go to that contest next year, it's called free advertising.
1) The advertising money that model Aviation gets is not what it use to be, because of that that will require some changes
2) I rarely get photos or contest reports that I can put into the CL scale column. The only material I have is material that I have shot myself at the contest or I have asked for someone to take some pictures and record the results. If I didn't have lots of my own material I wouldn't have anything for the CL Scale column.
3) I had a feature article published on the CL Speed F2A world cup recently and I am currently working on another article for 2019 covering Buder Park. Send the idea in with the topic and what you plan on covering. It is possible with the right material assuming you have good photographs and writing to go along with the topic.
4) The VP columns are good to have, it's a great spot for clubs within the district to get items printed up and out there.
Fred Cronenwett
CL Scale Model Aviation Column
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To tag on to Randy Cubberly's post which is so well written, and then to incorporate Curtis' reply about even r/c losing people; we are coming to the place where airplanes and flight no longer have the romantic draw for young people they used to have. When I was active in aviation I would have worked for bed and food only because I was that enthralled by the wonderful flying machines. (Almost did for about a year.)
Those magnifecent machines just captivated us, didn't they? Now that romance is all but gone.
A good friend of mine in Scotland is working hard to try and draw young people to the trades involved because his study shows that many airlines are having a hard time finding new pilots and new support people.
I don't know how accurate his figures are, but they show a tremendous shortage possible in the next several years. If that is because the draw is gone, and if we modelers are growing old and dying off, (All of you but me) then the hobby is truly in trouble.
Let's face it, things are changing, and we can't stop it. So what's the answer? Ya got me, all I know is I no longer see youngsters running out into the yard to watch Piper Tri-Pacers fly over and be dreaming of when they could be flying one. So if that interest isn't there, why would they fly models?
It's sad, at least to me, and maybe a little bit of a helpless feeling accompanies it.
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Just build a control line quad / drone. ;D
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To tag on to Randy Cubberly's post which is so well written, and then to incorporate Curtis' reply about even r/c losing people; we are coming to the place where airplanes and flight no longer have the romantic draw for young people they used to have. When I was active in aviation I would have worked for bed and food only because I was that enthralled by the wonderful flying machines. (Almost did for about a year.)
Those magnifecent machines just captivated us, didn't they? Now that romance is all but gone.
A good friend of mine in Scotland is working hard to try and draw young people to the trades involved because his study shows that many airlines are having a hard time finding new pilots and new support people.
I don't know how accurate his figures are, but they show a tremendous shortage possible in the next several years. If that is because the draw is gone, and if we modelers are growing old and dying off, (All of you but me) then the hobby is truly in trouble.
Let's face it, things are changing, and we can't stop it. So what's the answer? Ya got me, all I know is I no longer see youngsters running out into the yard to watch Piper Tri-Pacers fly over and be dreaming of when they could be flying one. So if that interest isn't there, why would they fly models?
It's sad, at least to me, and maybe a little bit of a helpless feeling accompanies it.
Well said.
And therein lies the crux of the matter. No new blood. And that will not change. So...that is the shrinking model airplane future we are left with. I accept it. In my eyes...AMA is here to serve you and I and all the crusty old dying farts to built it. They are not here to serve and save themselves...they are here to service US.
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I've been a life long member of the AMA, even when I wasn't active in modeling here and there.
The AMA isn't run by robots, it's run by great people and I strongly believe they know exactly what they are doing.
And they have reasons for everything they do.
I don't believe this for one second. Out of all the photos that we have been bombarded with from you, none of the models have sported an AMA number. But I guess it doesn't matter since you never fly anything. And as far as the rest of your statement, you obviously haven't had many dealings with the AMA. I would be interested in hearing you back up this statement with facts and other observations, if you please.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I don't believe this for one second. Out of all the photos that we have been bombarded with from you, none of the models have sported an AMA number. But I guess it doesn't matter since you never fly anything. And as far as the rest of your statement, you obviously haven't had many dealings with the AMA. I would be interested in hearing you back up this statement with facts and other observations, if you please.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
I don't know Aviojet from Adam, but...
I don't put my AMA number on my models, EVER. Never have. As a matter of fact, I recently dropped my AMA membership.
These days...I build a TON of planes and rarely fly them. Just where my head is at these days, what I enjoy.
As far as his dealings with the AMA, I have no idea, but....while I myself(and I guess YOU) are disgusted with the AMA, the vast majority of AMA members are NOT...you and I are the minority, so it's not really helpful to go after a fellow modeller just because they do not share your view about the AMA.
Even though you and I are RIGHT!
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I don't know Aviojet from Adam, but...
I don't put my AMA number on my models, EVER. Never have. As a matter of fact, I recently dropped my AMA membership.
These days...I build a TON of planes and rarely fly them. Just where my head is at these days, what I enjoy.
As far as his dealings with the AMA, I have no idea, but....while I myself(and I guess YOU) are disgusted with the AMA, the vast majority of AMA members are NOT...you and I are the minority, so it's not really helpful to go after a fellow modeller just because they do not share your view about the AMA.
Even though you and I are RIGHT!
Look at how many posts Dan and Avio have, they've been here a long time, there's history here...lol
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I don't believe this for one second. Out of all the photos that we have been bombarded with from you, none of the models have sported an AMA number. But I guess it doesn't matter since you never fly anything. And as far as the rest of your statement, you obviously haven't had many dealings with the AMA. I would be interested in hearing you back up this statement with facts and other observations, if you please.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
The Avenger pattern ship.
Scratch built from plans, sheeted foam wings, sheeted stab and elevator.
Fiberglass cloth applied with Polyester resin. Auto primer and all auto base coat colors.
Brushed hand lettering with black 1-Shot enamel sign painter's paint. Authentic 23K applied gold leaf. British graphics are Don's Brushing Lacquers. Finished with DuPont 2 part automotive clear coat.
I believe an OS with a tuned pipe. And this was my work 36 years ago. ;D
Who said you can't troll with a photo, I do it all the time. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Oh, and the last thing I want is to be part of your pathetic self gratifying CL fraternity.
I love being the Donald J. Trump of the Forum.
AMA No. 007,
LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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Look at how many posts Dan and Avio have, they've been here a long time, there's history here...lol
Oh...I don't need to look up their posts to see that...I've been on the internet since 1942...I know the drill...they are DUELLISTS. Back and forth forever. I've BEEN that guy, and actually suffered serious real world consequences from it, which I cannot get into. I mean, serious. It was a lesson that you do NOT know who you are really dealing with online and they may seem like one thing and end up being quite another. Me, I don't want to argue online anymore. Those guys, if they enjoy it, have at it.
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Oh...I don't need to look up their posts to see that...I've been on the internet since 1942...I know the drill...they are DUELLISTS. Back and forth forever. I've BEEN that guy, and actually suffered serious real world consequences from it, which I cannot get into. I mean, serious. It was a lesson that you do NOT know who you are really dealing with online and they may seem like one thing and end up being quite another. Me, I don't want to argue online anymore. Those guys, if they enjoy it, have at it.
Curtis,
With all due respect.
I never asked to be Trolled and I never trolled first. Sometimes I just defend when the troll is a blatant lie but now I mostly ignore the trolling Posts.
As far as Dan, he's like a left over troll, most others, still a few though, have given up and stopped for whatever the reason.
A good thing actually because the Forum reads better. The Forum has been "cleaned up" of most of the trolling and bullying towards Avaiojet over the past 7 years or so.
There's absolutely no honest reason a modeler can give, as to why they elect to troll or bully another modeler, without looking pathetic.
Don't we have enough problems with "division" in America?
Why bring this to the Forum? This does absolutely nothing to promote model aviation or CL.
How long have I been saying this?
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Curtis,
With all due respect.
I never asked to be Trolled and I never trolled first. Sometimes I just defend when the troll is a blatant lie but now I mostly ignore the trolling Posts.
As far as Dan, he's like a left over troll, most others, still a few though, have given up and stopped for whatever the reason.
A good thing actually because the Forum reads better. The Forum has been "cleaned up" of most of the trolling and bullying towards Avaiojet over the past 7 years or so.
There's absolutely no honest reason a modeler can give, as to why they elect to troll or bully another modeler, without looking pathetic.
Don't we have enough problems with "division" in America?
Why bring this to the Forum? This does absolutely nothing to promote model aviation or CL.
How long have I been saying this?
It's not a problem at all for ME...you can ignore trolls, you can pick up your Dungeons and Dragons broadsword and BATTLE them, or you can, as you say...MOSTLY ignore them! None of it bothers me...I know what it's like to have picked up a relentless enemy online, and the consequences I have paid have been worst than any you might suffer for sure. You might enjoy the wrassling, I dunno. But I recognized his post for what it was, no fear.
Gorgeous model...don't know or care if you flew it or not...as I said...I build TONS of models I never bother to fly. I count TEN on the wall of this one room I am in I have built over the past two years and never flew. So what?
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I don't know Aviojet from Adam, but...
I don't put my AMA number on my models, EVER. Never have. As a matter of fact, I recently dropped my AMA membership.
These days...I build a TON of planes and rarely fly them. Just where my head is at these days, what I enjoy.
As far as his dealings with the AMA, I have no idea, but....while I myself(and I guess YOU) are disgusted with the AMA, the vast majority of AMA members are NOT...you and I are the minority, so it's not really helpful to go after a fellow modeller just because they do not share your view about the AMA.
Even though you and I are RIGHT!
I usually don't put my AMA number (L-7921) on my planes either :-\! Heck, when it hits the dirt .... the guys already know who did it by the sound of the Richter Scale!! %^@ %^@
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Screw all this ---I am kind ticked at the notion that WE need to provide the folder and feed for the RAG ah er so called magazine...usually gratis
The AMA is as much a multi million dollar industry as the Harley Owners group or Road and Track or any of other Hobby past time venture
In my dumb youth-- a few 5 years ago-- I subscribed to about 12 magazines
Each has a staff , editors, and reporters that get paid
On my Motorcycle mags I followed
As well as my Ham radio mags
As well as my Hot rod mags
As well as EEA
As well as Boating
As well as Golf
many reporters who make the treks every year to all the big and small events and photographed and wrote.....so WTF AMA?
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I had NO IDEA that my post would draw such and interesting array of responses.
Yes, it seems like most people are totally against this absurd attempt to indoctrinate us to favor drones.
And yes, they have their place - surveillance, arial photography etc, etc.
But, they ARE NOT model airplanes - no way, no way.
They are just electronic toys and, in my opinion, DO NOT belong in a publication entitled Model Aviation.
The comment that they are the "future" of model aviation was ridiculous.
I've read all the responses and agree with most.
Although I consider the response "The AMA isn't run by robots, it's run by great people and I strongly believe they know exactly what they are doing. And they have reasons for everything they do" some sort of asinine attempt to defend the ama, the poster has his first amendment right to express himself, no matter how absurd it sounds.
I personally do not like the ama nor do I like the people who run it.
This goes back a ways to when I had a huge collection of models built by a master modeler/engineer from Quakertown, PA.
I planned to donate them to the ama museum.
I called, left messages, wrote letters and sent e-mails.
NOT ONE RESPONSE. They would not even return my phone calls.
Yes, some bozo on this very sight attempted to justify their behavior, saying how busy they were and cannot be bothered.
BULL****! NOBODY is too busy to type a simple response like NO THANK YOU.
A while back, I posted a picture of the stupid ama sticker I received, showing an R/C plane, a jet, a helicopter and a drone.
Of course someone, again on this site, stated that the plane could represent C/L.
Again, BULL****.
I'm a member for one reason: I like to attend the occasional contest.
Please, to all - continue the dialog.
You've all given great "food for thought"!
Bob Z.
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Some years ago, when Bill Northrop's "Model Builder" magazine ceased publication, I found I had a complete collection of every issue; several boxes full.
I called MA Headquarters and talked with the "Head Curator" (no name, please). I offered to donate the complete set to the museum.
He said, "Sure, send them".
Now, I'm all for making contributions to a good cause, but shipping for me would have run into the hundreds of $$$.
I guess they were not interested. My collection went to recycling.
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Some one mentioned in another thread that they should be focusing on the FRV aspect of this issue. That is really the problem. If there were no FPV or it was strictly regulated, that would eliminate the "toy" aspect of issue and put it squarely into the professional realm of operation. Years ago, when taking any kind of video from an R/C model, especially a transmitted TV signal, you had to have a special FCC license . As the technology expanded so rapidly, the license requirement went away, I guess, so we have the FCC to put some of the blame on. I don't understand why the AMA doesn't try to go for the trifecta and bring R/C cars under their umbrella. That is a similar market and mind set as the quadcopter crowd as far as I'm concerned. At least R/C cars and trucks look like something that I can go elsewhere and watch. And the R/C boat guys also. I was just flipping through the latest issue and saw the column by Chad Budreau on the subject of the FAA requiring a transponder on ANYTHING that flies. Toys, models, frisbees, quads, they are really trying to put a blanket over everything. They used the term, "remotely identified." So far the brain trust at the AMA has not managed to get through to the FAA that models operated by hobbyists as they have been for so long by means of the line of site practice and proper registration of the pilot/operator with the AMA and have the AMA number displayed on the aircraft, they are already remotely identified. This is partially what you get when you have just "people" in charge of the organization who were hired because they submitted a resume. I sometimes wonder if it possible to change things and right the ship. I think instead of embracing the quad copter crowd, they should be pushing good old fashioned modeling, like a lot of us old timers have been saying. To a couple of generations, it's something that they don't know exists. A whole new market. Preach the simplicity and wholesomeness of it. There is already a lot of stuff on you tube about basic models such and rubber powered F/F and even control line. It seems in the presentations that the people posting the videos don't have a clue as to what the AMA is. Why isn't that an aspect of current technology explored instead of embracing the quad copter crowd, which will eventually shrink on it's own now that the newness of it is wearing off and it becomes passe to the millennials and they look for the next big thing. I'm curious to see what the sales of these things will look like after the Christmas season is over. I'll bet that they aren't as hot as they have been over the last couple of years, and the numbers that the AMA is hoping to see from it just isn't there.So much for quads being the future of model aviation!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Anybody miss "Control Line World" yet?
Joe Just
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Some years ago i was at a large C/L contest. A officer of the AMA came to the contest to present an award. As he and his entourage walked by. I heard him say I want to get this over with. I do not want to stay around these control liners and this contest any longer then i have to.
His name. Well here are his initials. D.B.
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Nothing Changes
The most interesting part to me is they have all drones and helis, but when you go to the page with member's projects what do you see? Wood airplanes. That right there is evidence of how out of touch the AMA has become.
But it's not new. I was recently perusing through my collection of AAM, MAN, an R/C Modeler from the early 70's. Controline was almost non-existent in AAM and MAN by that time. What little controline they did cover was usually carrier, scale and speed, you know, all the stuff the average guy flies - LOL!
What you do see however, is lots of R/C cars and Boats.
If I were king:
1) The AMA would sell the property they own. It's unnecessary in today's work-from-home world where we all have smartphones, tablets and Dick Tracey watches.
2) The NATs would return to the old format of moving around the country. It does a lot to promote the hobby and introduces everyone to all aspects of the hobby. I'm a member of a club with over 100 members and I'll bet most of them have never seen a "real" controline plane fly, much less a free-flight. Back in the day we would all descend upon some city and get all kinds of TV coverage and we'd make a positive impact on the local economy. It was great for the hobby.
3) I would encourage clubs to drop the "fun fly" format and instead focus on "Discover Model Aviation" days. You can still have all the fun flying you want but you could attract new participants, or introduce current modelers to different aspects of the hobby. It always makes me chuckle up here in north that most modelers do nothing from November to April, yet there are myriad places to fly indoor free flight. Which, by the way, is really fun and costs almost nothing.
Anyway, sell the property. It's the thing that's causing the issues. I pay my dues to the AMA to have support for my local flying club, not to service a place in the middle of nowhere that most members will never see.
Chuck
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The AMA property is a Very Expensive Anchor. Just Dead Weight.
Also it is a Symbol of Prestige for all their Over Inflated Ego's.
The hobby should be taken to the people. Not for the people to come to them..
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Wish I could believe that there is still a kid out there who reads Model Aviation in bed way past his official "lights out" hour.
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The old Air Trails magazine was the one I use to drool on in study hall in school. That, and old Scrambler motorcycle mags. Air Trails had some of all modeling activities including solid models, boats, tether cars, and all flying models. The Air Trails annual had tons of info on the planes that were being flown at the NATS. The control line section told what and how many coats of dope, what prop, glow plug, starting battery, covering, fuel, and engine used.
They had no glossy color pages, but what they did have was inspiration. But, that was a different world. Maybe just because we were young and blown away by what was happening on the modeling scene. But, for many of us it has been a life long love affair.
Lets face it, we have never grown up. Not sure when i go to fly I am not that same kid stringing out my lines the same as I did then. As my kids tell me, what goes around comes around, or I have come full circle. I did fly R/C Pattern competition for 25 years before coming back to control line.
The hobby aspect has changed so much over the last 10 years that it is almost unrecognizable. It has morfed into something else. I remember the smell of the wood when you opened a model box of the latest Scientific Hollow log plane. I built them on the living room floor after putting news paper down. I ran OK Cubs in the basement. Actually, my first powerd model was a Half Pint race car that I had to build the tank from brass sheet. That was my first OK Cub .049. I hopped it up later with and .074 I traded something for. I did a lot of trading to get what I wanted as even though I worked at lots of different jobs, I never seem to have any money. When I was 14, I traded a 37 Chevy, a Winchester 12 ga, single shot, and $20,00 for my first Harley. A 1942 "45" Flat Head.
Well, enough of my ramblng which is not going to bring back those fun days where we were all model builders. But I still have remnants of the past. I have a box of 1/2 A engines from those days. I have since accumulated a lot of engines, mostly old iginition engines that I drooled over in the hobby shop windows and at the school ground and the park in the 40's.
Now, FAA has taken over the whole activity. No one under the age of 16 can take the test for the certifcate to fly. There are schools poping up to help people to pass the test. As Ed says on Last man standing. Whats happening?
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Anybody miss "Control Line World" yet?
Joe Just
Hey Joe...I sure the hell do!
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I too miss "Control Line World". :(
Had to correct spelling as this key board and my mind plus fingers don't agree at times.
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Wish I could believe that there is still a kid out there who reads Model Aviation in bed way past his official "lights out" hour.
LOL!
You did that too??
I remember one summer I was so revved up about C/L that I would stay up until 3 AM working on airplanes and reading American Modeler. Fun times.
Andre
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My Dad and Mom didn't say any thing about me reading Air Trails or any model plane magazine or even working on planes past bed time as long as home work was done and I got up in time for school. Not fun walking the 2 miles when Dad would leave for work because I didn't get up in time. Of course I was in better shape back then. D>K
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%^@ %^@ LL~ LL~ Yeah, now I know some of you guys are just venting for the sake of venting and "spinning" other folks up! Honestly, y'all know some of the ideas put forth just aren't in the realm of "Can Do" .... ever, ever again :-\ :'(. For example, a "mobile NAT's" .... really?? Where would/could it be held? How many state and local licenses, noise waivers, FAA altitude waivers, etcetera would be required? What kinds of costs, land rental, insurance, security, police, on-site medical support would be encountered and required? Where are there clubs sufficient in size and membership plus volunteers to provide the local manpower? Yeah, enough money can make anything happen but where's it coming from .... entry fees .... really? Y'all don't want to pay dues for membership to the organization that is at least "trying" (though many will still say that's not true) :-\!! How many of us old foggies would even attend? Y'all know y'all AIN'T gonna pay $150 - $200 per event entry fee plus the drive, hotel, food expenses and so forth to cover even the very basic expenses of any organization hosting such an event for a plastic or wooden trophy LL~ LL~!!
More than that, where are the young folks coming from? As much as y'all talk about it, there's probably only a handful of us with the time, patience, demeanor or even the desire to work with and teach some of the young folks today, yes?? no?? It's a "hoot" reading all the ragging about the content and or perceived usefulness of a one of the last surviving "in-print" magazines that could possibly spur some, some, self-motivated young people to embrace this hobby/sport, just as those magazines of the past spurred me and you ??? :-\ Yet because of the flood of new and specialized content, so many of y'all want to make it go away too HAA HAAA HAAA!! Again, REALLY!! Heck, I remember nearly all of the old magazines included articles about nearly every aspect of modeling, plastics, rocketry, cars, boats, full-scale and model aircraft of all types and even some real military information and history all because someone CONTRIBUTED that information in the correct format in the proper timeline. Is that still happening .... especially in those categories or are those specialized and subsequently, published contributions coming from the very folks who are interested in THOSE categories?? Let me shut my mouth and end this message before I get someone upset with me!! LL~ LL~ Y'all are all old enough to know the old adage "Ya' Gits Whatcha' Pays For", or "Nuttin' In Gits Ya Nuttin' Out"!! LL~ LL~
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The thought just hit me(I know it must be brain damage), but if Model Aviation was on the news/magazine stands so the general public might see it, I think it would help pay for it self. That is how I discovered Air Trails for Young Men while Mother was doing the grocery shopping. Store manager never said any thing as the issue would wind up going home with me. I think it cost me 25 or 35 cents which meant some home chores to do for Mom and Dad. Or collecting newspapers and bottles to cash in for the money. D>K
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More than that, where are the young folks coming from? As much as y'all talk about it, there's probably only a handful of us with the time, patience, demeanor or even the desire to work with and teach some of the young folks today, yes?? no?? It's a "hoot" reading all the ragging about the content and or perceived usefulness of a one of the last surviving "in-print" magazines that could possibly spur some, some, self-motivated young people to embrace this hobby/sport, just as those magazines of the past spurred me and you ??? :-\ Yet because of the flood of new and specialized content, so many of y'all want to make it go away too HAA HAAA HAAA!! Again, REALLY!!
I have been hearing the same stuff since I was a kid - "where all all the juniors! We have to break everything to make them come back!!!, we are ally dying off!!!!!!"
That was *50 years ago*, during which time we contracted greatly when RC became practical in the mid-70's, further when we ran out of acceptable engines, back up again dramatically during the Mike Keville/Tom Morris era of OTS and the greatly improved SN, along with the development of tuned pipe engines, and now back down again as the "Windy Wars" finally came to a head, and the NATs has become permanently located 2400 miles from one of the big centers of activity.
CL was only ever "alive" for about 15 years. It has been supposedly "dying" far longer than that.
*Juniors are not coming back*, period. It doesn't matter what you do, or how you approach it. They have long since moved on to more interesting things, to them. Modeling is not ever going to be the way it was in the 40s-50's, because airplanes became "really fast busses" and yesterday's news with Sputnik. Now we have 3-4 generations of people who haven't cared one whit about airplanes or aviation technology.
A lot of people *have completely lost their perspective*, in the sense that they think any of this is reversible if we just tried harder - your mocking quotes above being a typical example. *It is not reversible* and lack of outreach and lack promotion is not the problem. And some of the misguided or cynical "promotion" attempts have been highly counter-productive.
We aren't going to go back to rotating NATs, we aren't going to go kids reading Air Trails or a modern equivalent (which would have to be a cell-phone-friendly web site) thrilling over the dim-witted adventures of fictional pilots or glimpses of model airplane hotshots. No one gives a flying tinker's damn about pilots, airplanes, model airplanes, or anything like it - look around!
What we are complaining about is another of these foolish "promotional" activities by the AMA. They want to impose themselves into the drone boom, and will do anything to get their hooks into it. The problem is that their witless efforts along these lines is about to kill *everything*, because *drones are going to be heavily regulated* or effectively banned as a hobby activity very shortly. In chasing this hopeless cause, they are also going to kill everything else along with it.
That's the problem, they see the situation with lack of perspective to the same degree (i.e. delusional) you and others seem to have, spurred on by visions of becoming the T-Rex of government lobbying blocks by representing millions of drone idiots. What they are missing is the oncoming asteroid.
Brett
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I have been hearing the same stuff since I was a kid - "where all all the juniors! We have to break everything to make them come back!!!, we are ally dying off!!!!!!"
That was *50 years ago*, during which time we contracted greatly when RC became practical in the mid-70's, further when we ran out of acceptable engines, back up again dramatically during the Mike Keville/Tom Morris era of OTS and the greatly improved SN, along with the development of tuned pipe engines, and now back down again as the "Windy Wars" finally came to a head, and the NATs has become permanently located 2400 miles from one of the big centers of activity.
CL was only ever "alive" for about 15 years. It has been supposedly "dying" far longer than that.
*Juniors are not coming back*, period. It doesn't matter what you do, or how you approach it. They have long since moved on to more interesting things, to them. Modeling is not ever going to be the way it was in the 40s-50's, because airplanes became "really fast busses" and yesterday's news with Sputnik. Now we have 3-4 generations of people who haven't cared one whit about airplanes or aviation technology.
A lot of people *have completely lost their perspective*, in the sense that they think any of this is reversible if we just tried harder - your mocking quotes above being a typical example. *It is not reversible* and lack of outreach and lack promotion is not the problem. And some of the misguided or cynical "promotion" attempts have been highly counter-productive.
We aren't going to go back to rotating NATs, we aren't going to go kids reading Air Trails or a modern equivalent (which would have to be a cell-phone-friendly web site) thrilling over the dim-witted adventures of fictional pilots or glimpses of model airplane hotshots. No one gives a flying tinker's damn about pilots, airplanes, model airplanes, or anything like it - look around!
What we are complaining about is another of these foolish "promotional" activities by the AMA. They want to impose themselves into the drone boom, and will do anything to get their hooks into it. The problem is that their witless efforts along these lines is about to kill *everything*, because *drones are going to be heavily regulated* or effectively banned as a hobby activity very shortly. In chasing this hopeless cause, they are also going to kill everything else along with it.
That's the problem, they see the situation with lack of perspective to the same degree (i.e. delusional) you and others seem to have, spurred on by visions of becoming the T-Rex of government lobbying blocks by representing millions of drone idiots. What they are missing is the oncoming asteroid.
Brett
Holy crap. What a GREAT POST. Just spot on.
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I don't know Aviojet from Adam, but...
Avaiojet is a very special case, and has been banned from at least a couple of other forums for his incessant trolling, taking credit for things he didn't do, treating master modelers like dirt or morons, etc. He has really never posted anything with worthwhile content or insightful evaluation, his earlier post being a perfect example - since this was about the negative things about the AMA, he had to post something positive, even though he has absolutely no connection in any way with the AMA, stunt, or anything else, just to draw attention to himself. He is far and away the worst example of this sort of thing I have seen in something like 25 years of this sort of forum, and I am sure when he reads this, he will be thrilled to learn that, since his goal is to get people to pay attention to him, whether or not it's negative, he simply craves attention and doesn't care about the side effects.
Note that the more he accuses everyone else of being "trolls", the more you can be sure he is doing it himself. You are not like him, fortunately.
Brett
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Brett,
great post! here is something I wrote the other day kinda like what you wrote. but, I'm not sending it because, well, my thoughts tend to wander while writing as you'll see.....
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Avaiojet is a very special case, and has been banned from at least a couple of other forums for his incessant trolling, taking credit for things he didn't do, treating master modelers like dirt or morons, etc. He has really never posted anything with worthwhile content or insightful evaluation, his earlier post being a perfect example - since this was about the negative things about the AMA, he had to post something positive, even though he has absolutely no connection in any way with the AMA, stunt, or anything else, just to draw attention to himself. He is far and away the worst example of this sort of thing I have seen in something like 25 years of this sort of forum, and I am sure when he reads this, he will be thrilled to learn that, since his goal is to get people to pay attention to him, whether or not it's negative, he simply craves attention and doesn't care about the side effects.
Note that the more he accuses everyone else of being "trolls", the more you can be sure he is doing it himself. You are not like him, fortunately.
Brett
Like I said...I don't know him from Adam. BUT...having been thrown off all the major RC websites years ago myself, I do know what it's like to have pissed off the in crowd and the sponsors and that you can become everybody's whippin' dog pretty easily. The nature of the internet is to have a real dogpile gang up mentality, so I sypathize with the outsider and I am always suspicious of what all the kool kids are saying and doing.
But in the end...I've seen all types of internet feuds and punchups and they just don't INTEREST me anymore. Seen too many, it just got OLD. Others enjoy that, it's all good by me, I don't want to censor or moderate anyone. It's sooooo easy just to scroll past it.
Again...every damn thing in your post is sooo right on target. Especially that cry about the juniors being fifty years old.
I can't beleive that people still think there are 80000 juniors in AMA, that is a totally FAKE number, AMA did some really fake things to conflate those numbers, I can't beleive members are not more outraged by the simulator trailer scam. All those fake members actually cost us a lot to produce.
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Again...every damn thing in your post is sooo right on target. Especially that cry about the juniors being fifty years old.
I can't beleive that people still think there are 80000 juniors in AMA, that is a totally FAKE number, AMA did some really fake things to conflate those numbers, I can't beleive members are not more outraged by the simulator trailer scam. All those fake members actually cost us a lot to produce.
Good day!
I'm just curious about that number. I've actually never heard there was 80,000 junior members. Maybe I just haven't paid attention to the AMA reporting that.
That would only be like .00024 percent of the estimated population. Or .01 percent of the population of children (estimated). Plus, juniors are free. You don't think that number is a possibility? I have no idea myself. I've never thought of it until you posted that number.
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AMA did some really fake things to conflate those numbers, I can't beleive members are not more outraged by the simulator trailer scam.
Simulator trailer scam? What is that?
Brett
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Jim and Brett your last post are how I see the current situation. I was one of those kids in the 1940 s and it was a fun time. I liked ama mag up until 20 years ago and I stoped reading since then. One thing that is a turn off for new people is most cl flyers are hard core contest flyers. I fell into that mold myself and sport flying got boring. CL served a purpose for many as a filler while in pre adult age. It was fun and they moved on. Some of us did not move on and now are trying to bring back those teen age years. Hobbies of the 1950-60 s are no longer interesting for the people of today. Move on and enjoy what is left of it.
ReddyR
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hey eddy, I'm 35 and having a blast with this! so is my niece at 11 years old!
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Good day!
I'm just curious about that number. I've actually never heard there was 80,000 junior members. Maybe I just haven't paid attention to the AMA reporting that.
That would only be like .00024 percent of the estimated population. Or .01 percent of the population of children (estimated). Plus, juniors are free. You don't think that number is a possibility? I have no idea myself. I've never thought of it until you posted that number.
As of a few years ago, ama claimed 180000 members. $7.5m in dues revenue. So at $75 each, that would be 100000 paying members. 80000 non paying junior members.
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They bought a bigass trailer and put in a dozen model flight simulator stations.
Then they drove it to various events around the country like the Red Bull Air Races, Oshkosh, Sun and Fun(yes...we paid for our AMA officials to attend these events, hotels, meals, transportation, per diems) and they let any kid who wanted to try the simulator do it, as long as they signed a sheet of paper. That piece of paper made them an instant AMA member. Poof! A huge number of new "members" to make the numbers look good. How many of them turned into model aviators? Two? Ten?
Seriously...how many junior AMA members are in your family?
Zippo in mine, except my nephew, who flew the simulator once at the WRAM show some years ago and has been on the AMA roster ever since as a Junior Member.
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Simulator trailer scam? What is that?
Brett
I would like the back story on that also. I think I remember seeing that at Oshkosh while I was attending on a regular basis. I worked the KidVenture venue control line circles for 16 years straight. One of the things , of many , that I saw evolve at that time was the attitude the AMA and the EAA had towards each other. I started to attend in 2000, and the AMA had just a small booth where the other vendors set up in the metal buildings near the flight line. AeroShell Square it was called then. I always stopped by to talk to Bob Underwood, who is from my area, a great scale builder, flier, leader and generally nice guy. Bob had held several key positions with the AMA through the years and was my ear to the inside, sort of. But the AMA and the EAA generally had no use for each other at that time. The Kidventure was the idea of an EAA executive who was a former Junior National Champ. It drew large crowds, and there were times when group photos were taken that the AMA crew rushed over with banners and such to try and horn in on it. Then as time went on, things changed in both organizations and bot were looking for new blood. Suddenly, they were best buddies. I don't know who needs the other more. The drone thing had just started to catch on and the AMA started to embrace that. We used to fly at the KidVenture circles each evening until dark, but there was no place for the R/C guys to fly, and technically, you should not have been able to fly R/C at an active airport. But, and area at the Pioneer Airport grass strip was set up for guys to fly drones, and park flier type models. It was roughly a 400 foot box, taking into account the then current 400 foot rule. The first night it was open, there were countless infractions of that rule, including some nutcase flying to the other side of the area where I was flying, and buzzing the circle!! I packed up and went over in search of the AMA representative who thought he was in charge. I has some one point him out to me, and I proceeded to tell him what a real cluster F@#%@K this was that was going on. His eyes got as big as saucers when I pointed out infractions of the 400 foot rule that were going on right in front of our eyes, the number of aircraft being flow outside of the boundaries, and not to mention the fact, that it was already 45 minute past the time in which model flying was supposed to have ceased! He asked who I was, I handed him my name badge, and told him I could be his worse nightmare, and asked if he was really trying to ruin the whole thing for all of us!! I asked if he had checked people for AMA membership, like he was supposed to, and he said no. But with that mob, that would have been extremely difficult at best. I can't believe that they turned all those people loose with those things, on an active airport like Whitman Field, and these are the people trying to lead us through the issues of today! The guy was a blithering idiot, and I only wish I could remember his name. I was leaving the next day, I think so I really had nothing to loose but just tried to make myself and my point known. I haven't been back since then, so i don't know if it went anywhere. But that scene was a pure example of current AMA leadership and the character of the people that hey were trying to recruit. There was a follow up article in Model Aviation about the R/C area activities and I sent in an email about my experiences and several corrections to errors in the article, but never heard anything back. Somewhere on the grounds they had a large cage type structure up near the flight line. I never got near there to check it out, but they may have had that trailer set up there. Once they got chummy with the EAA, they no longer had their booth in the hot metal buildings, but had been up graded to a nice, cool air conditioned landing in the museum. I extended an invitation to those guys to come out into the heat, wind and some times rain to do some real work at the KidVenture circles, but only got weird looks and scowls from them! They had simulators set up there also, and had some in the Pioneer Aiport hangers where the rest of KidVenture was laid out. So , yes, I would be interested in the back story also.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Perhaps I'm a wierd exception. I have several junior members in my family, including both my 7 year old kids. Who, both started competing in CL speed at the age of 4.
I certainly don't know much about the AMA as a financial institute, but I can see those numbers as a possibility.
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Brett,
great post! here is something I wrote the other day kinda like what you wrote. but, I'm not sending it because, well, my thoughts tend to wander while writing as you'll see.....
Just came in from the shop and as usual checked on Stunt Hanger. I have read your writing and it makes me feel guilty of not spending more time with the kids. But as today was another miles stone in my life my wife gave me a birthday present. I thanked her said it is a great present as my newest grand daughter likes to go in the back yard with the dogs and I. She likes to run and she gets the dog balls and brings them to me. Started just trying to teach her to play catch with her standing right in front of me. She is 3 years old. Now she brings the ball and tells me to throw it so she can chase it. Now with the new birthday present maybe I can teach how to throw it and retrieve it. See picture. H^^
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Curtis' and Dan's replies just above (101 and 102) are spot on and prove some of the exact thoughts and impressions I've had of the AMA for quite a long time now (years). The "modern" AMA has solidly reached the point of being totally clueless to what originally created their very existence. They have also lost all sight or ambition of promoting or representing their historical background of real aeromodeling. Anymore, and at this point, it is a complete waste of time (and money) for anyone here to have anything to do with them. D>K
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Anymore, and at this point, it is a complete waste of time (and money) for anyone here to have anything to do with them. D>K
Yes, but those of us who still travel around the country to compete still need to be members
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I have 1 Jr. (Samuel) that many of you know. We attended 7 contests and 1 fun fly in 2018. We both flew stunt/combat at all of them. AMA is a requirement, so as long as there are contests for us to go to we'll continue to be AMA members. I do fear a day when CL participation dwindles and contests just can't be run or supported. For now I'm just happy for the contests we do have and I get to fly in them with my kid. When the contests are all gone my AMA membership will go too.
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I guess what I'd like is to have the AMA share their mission and vision with the membership. A far as a sanctioning body for events they do a decent job. But promoting model aviation? I'm not sure they really understand what "modeling" is. Mail-ordering a RTF foamie?
The technology has made "Toy" R/C airplanes a reality. Just like R/C cars and boats, when they became so available they became toys instead of hobby equipment the need for ROAR, etc., disappeared.
It appears the AMA expects to make a living off of people who buy toys.
Chuck
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Just came in from the shop and as usual checked on Stunt Hanger. I have read your writing and it makes me feel guilty of not spending more time with the kids. But as today was another miles stone in my life my wife gave me a birthday present. I thanked her said it is a great present as my newest grand daughter likes to go in the back yard with the dogs and I. She likes to run and she gets the dog balls and brings them to me. Started just trying to teach her to play catch with her standing right in front of me. She is 3 years old. Now she brings the ball and tells me to throw it so she can chase it. Now with the new birthday present maybe I can teach how to throw it and retrieve it. See picture. H^^
John, that's great! I remember my former stepson at that age, and him arguing with my beagle to give him the ball :P
build a guillows FF bird and have her chase after that!
I have 2 junior members in my family (niece and nephew)... but one has bailed I think. oh well... if my other nephews lived closer, I know at least one of them would be on this like a fat kid on cake! unfotunatly, there is no CL activity that I can tell of near them (all RC), and their parent's are a little lacking in the technical area, which makes them a bit gun shy on the idea.
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I guess what I'd like is to have the AMA share their mission and vision with the membership. A far as a sanctioning body for events they do a decent job. But promoting model aviation? I'm not sure they really understand what "modeling" is. Mail-ordering a RTF foamie?
The technology has made "Toy" R/C airplanes a reality. Just like R/C cars and boats, when they became so available they became toys instead of hobby equipment the need for ROAR, etc., disappeared.
It appears the AMA expects to make a living off of people who buy toys.
I think they have been sharing that vision, very clearly, with all concerned, for a very long time. Before drones, it was park fliers, and before park fliers, it was RC ARFs wall-to-wall. This has been going on since at least the mid-80's, and I don't think they could have been any more clear about it. As soon as RC became a practical and reliable system in the early -mid 70's, ARFs and RTF built at what we would consider slave wages in slave conditions in China were pretty much inevitable.
If they were running a business, they would be doing exactly the right thing, and serving their market very well. That's how they view themselves, and are acting accordingly, with a few bones tossed out to support the tiny competition contingent (so far...). Once the AMA voters (the majority of whom don't understand any other concept, either) let this start, it was self-fulfilling and essentially impossible to reverse with elections.
This happened a very long time ago, and it has bumbled along with acceptable results until drones came along, because it was perfectly obvious that *drones are going to get regulated*, probably to the point of destruction. That was never a realistic possibility with RC ARFs or park fliers, but is a metaphysical certainty with FPV and drones.
That is the part they seem to be missing, or even worse, they may be delusional enough or greedy enough to risk the destruction of the entire organization on the theory that since they are the 800-lb gorilla, they can control what happens and make it work out OK. They jump on the drone fad, manipulate Congress and the FAA to put them as the middlemen, they sell ads and get kickbacks from the manufacturers, and make the AMA the biggest aviation-related organization in the world. New leather chairs for the conference room, bigger travel per diem to fly to Lausanne, Chad Budreau is the biggest of the big shots!
Me/you/a lot of us here can see why this isn't going to work. But they are more-or-less committed to it at this point, even if they realized it, they can't turn back now- because if they stop and try to reverse course, they are completely out in the cold. Same thing if we tried to take the maybe 10,000 people we would consider to be true modelers and break away.
But you cannot say they haven't been perfectly clear about how they planned to proceed, it's been stated repeatedly. I think we are merely noting that gorillas are on the endangered species list...
Brett
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I join the AMA as I compete in a competition or two yearly. So need to be a member. Only reason for me.
Get the mag and read what interests me. Mainly CL Stunt section.
Peruse while pooping like all my subscriptions. Look at color schemes. Battery stuff.
Then into recycling.
Doesn't get me too worked up or anything.
Quads are the rage. So it goes.
Shug
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They bought a bigass trailer and put in a dozen model flight simulator stations.
Then they drove it to various events around the country like the Red Bull Air Races, Oshkosh, Sun and Fun(yes...we paid for our AMA officials to attend these events, hotels, meals, transportation, per diems) and they let any kid who wanted to try the simulator do it, as long as they signed a sheet of paper. That piece of paper made them an instant AMA member. Poof! A huge number of new "members" to make the numbers look good. How many of them turned into model aviators? Two? Ten?
Interesting. I suspect no one is up in arms about it because they had never heard about it, either.
I wonder if anyone asked their parents or informed them of the true nature of what they were signing up for? Kids cannot enter into contracts (free or not) on their own accord. Highly scammy even if it's legal.
Brett
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Interesting. I suspect no one is up in arms about it because they had never heard about it, either.
I wonder if anyone asked their parents or informed them of the true nature of what they were signing up for? Kids cannot enter into contracts (free or not) on their own accord. Highly scammy even if it's legal.
Brett
[/quotem ]
I'm sure it's legal, and it's no harm to the kid, he just gets his name on a list.
But it's deceptive to the membership and to government.
Obviously, if I thought AMA was serving my needs, I'd have no problem with it.
As it is...I really have no problem with it, except it shows a mentality towards honesty and the membership I do not really care for.
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Yes, but those of us who still travel around the country to compete still need to be members
Yep, I know, I get it and it's (been) a valid point. I'm also thinking though that it's well past time for that same group (the avid competitors) to just dump the AMA altogether and find their own way. I don't really feel like think the AMA "insurance" argument carries much weight either.
Something I've thought about a few times recently, in a nutshell, is this...
Practically 99% of all contests are planned, organized and ran by volunteers, most of whom are already PAMPA members. There has to be a way to continue these same contests without any AMA involvement, whether it be regionals, nationals, or any other small local contest in between.
As a hypothetical example, these same volunteers could likely reorganize and start right at the top with boycotting and replacing the AMA NATS. I'm just picking the "big one" here as "Example A" but the idea would be relative to any contest. Band together and blow off going to Muncie in July, find a new location, and start a "PAMPANATS". Heck, maybe even use the same dates as the AMA event. Once organized a "PAMPANATS" event could even go back to moving the venue annually, just like the good 'ol days. No offense to any past AMA winners, their place in history is already documented, but the way things have evolved I'd be much more proud of a "PAMPANATS" trophy than anything that says AMA on it.
Granted, it's a whole bunch of work to organize and run a contest. I have to think though that bottom line it wouldn't take much (if any) more effort to continue and hold most existing contests without the AMA. For the most part it would be all the same people doing all the same work, just without "bothering" the AMA. I'm not necessarily intending to set this idea on PAMPA's plate either, I'm just using them as the example since it seems they might be the most obvious candidate for any such reorganization. Whatever or whoever might take the idea on, there has to be a way. y1
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PAMPANATS. Sounds like a breakfast cereal. I don't think we would be successful and, as a long time PAMPA member I don't think we have anyone who really wants the headaches of forming a new cover group. We already run the event. It is that trip to Muncie that seems to be the issue. Maybe something could be done about that. I don't have any ideas.
Ken
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We already run the event. It is that trip to Muncie that seems to be the issue. Maybe something could be done about that. I don't have any ideas.
Ken
That's the idea Ken, same type of event, with the same (usual) people organizing and running it, at a venue determined by the organizers, just without AMA involvement.
I know I don't have every answer, just hoping to plant some sort of seed. Respectfully folks, not looking to start any arguments either, simply offering some thoughts and ideas for what is a long overdue change. It's doable. This whole thing should be running deeper than everyone just continuing to repeat and complain about the lack of C/L coverage in the AMA's rag, that's something that's definitely not going to change. Besides, PAMPA's magazine already kicks their ass. :)
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It's all about liability.
The site owner is never going to allow contestants without an AMA style insurance.
As far as going to Muncie.....I have never been there and I ain't going.
PAMPA...the C/L SIG can run their own NATS at the location of it's choice.
It was just announced by NSRCA......the Pattern SIG....that the 2019 NATS are going to be held for the second year in a row at Blytheville, AR.
I have not been there either but I understand it is a deactivated USAF base and the accommodations and conditions were excellent.
Believe me....if the pattern guys can do it....PAMPA can do it too.
In fact....Pattern flyers have a mass of talented guys....some of them are really interested in upper level C/L flying.
Perhaps PAMPA can snag a few more of them.
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"It's all about liability.
The site owner is never going to allow contestants without an AMA style insurance."
If the site owner was truly aware of how the so called AMA insurance worked and how hard it is to get a pay out.
They would most likely never allow a contest and or have people fly to begin with on said property.
The AMA insurance is just lip service written down on paper. Saying one has to jump through all are hoops then sew us to get the claim paid.
Insurance company's make their/save money by not paying out claims or paying out as little as possible.
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"It's all about liability.
The site owner is never going to allow contestants without an AMA style insurance."
If the site owner was truly aware of how the so called AMA insurance worked and how hard it is to get a pay out.
They would most likely never allow a contest and or have people fly to begin with on said property.
The AMA insurance is just lip service written down on paper. Saying one has to jump through all are hoops then sew us to get the claim paid.
Insurance company's make their/save money by not paying out claims or paying out as little as possible.
Well, let's not tell them about it here.
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"It's all about liability.
The site owner is never going to allow contestants without an AMA style insurance."
If the site owner was truly aware of how the so called AMA insurance worked and how hard it is to get a pay out.
They would most likely never allow a contest and or have people fly to begin with on said property.
The AMA insurance is just lip service written down on paper. Saying one has to jump through all are hoops then sew us to get the claim paid.
Insurance company's make their/save money by not paying out claims or paying out as little as possible.
Maybe.....but paying out was not what we were talking about.....
I realize posing straw man arguments to help justify not having AMA is one thing that can be done.....but.....no one is gonna enter a contest without AMA.
And that is just the way it is....no matter what we say either way.
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I see rumblings like this from more than just PAMPA style guys.... maybe all of CL together get together and play nice at their own event...?
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I see rumblings like this from more than just PAMPA style guys.... maybe all of CL together get together and play nice at their own event...?
We already have events like that, like the Northwest and Southwest Regionals. There appears to be nothing to prevent anyone else from doing the same elsewhere, aside from the lack of will to do it.
Brett
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Is there any proof that "AMA getting kickbacks from manufacturers"?
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We already have events like that, like the Northwest and Southwest Regionals. There appears to be nothing to prevent anyone else from doing the same elsewhere, aside from the lack of will to do it.
Brett
only saying that as it seemed like it was getting PAMPA specific :) one big happy family!
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"It's all about liability.
The site owner is never going to allow contestants without an AMA style insurance."
If the site owner was truly aware of how the so called AMA insurance worked and how hard it is to get a pay out.
They would most likely never allow a contest and or have people fly to begin with on said property.
The AMA insurance is just lip service written down on paper. Saying one has to jump through all are hoops then sew us to get the claim paid.
Insurance company's make their/save money by not paying out claims or paying out as little as possible.
That’s not really true. AMA pays. And the deductible is high, most claims are paid by ama directly, only big ones hit the insurance company. But pay they do. And most big claims involve general liability, like someone falling off a log, rather than actual model Airplane incidents.
I’m no ama fan but I need to be fair.
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A PAMPANATS in my 2 cents worth would not have the history or prestige of the AMA National Control Line Precision Aerobatics Open & Walker trophy. I've been to the east coast and would love to go to a west coast Nationals. Oh I forgot about the Tri-Cities NATS. D>K
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Is there any proof that "AMA getting kickbacks from manufacturers"?
No, aside from advertising. I was projecting a future condition.
Brett
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A PAMPANATS in my 2 cents worth would not have the history or prestige of the AMA National Control Line Precision Aerobatics Open & Walker trophy.
It would if, like I'm suggesting, there were no more C/L AMA NATS and the "PAMPANATS" were to replace it as the new top national event.
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We already have events like that, like the Northwest and Southwest Regionals. There appears to be nothing to prevent anyone else from doing the same elsewhere, aside from the lack of will to do it.
Brett
Yep, it's all doable, if there could ever be a collective effort to reorganize and tell the AMA to go #@*% themselves.
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It would if, like I'm suggesting, there were no more C/L AMA NATS and the "PAMPANATS" were to replace it as the new top national event.
Pssst, if we’re gonna secede from the Union don’t forget to grab that “little” trophy from them. Don’t know how difficult/easy that might be but I would guess it’s kind of important.
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Pssst, if we’re gonna secede from the Union don’t forget to grab that “little” trophy from them. Don’t know how difficult/easy that might be but I would guess it’s kind of important.
Grab the trophy? If you mean an AMA trophy or trophies they can keep them. Along with the "new era" would come all new trophies.
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Pssst, if we’re gonna secede from the Union don’t forget to grab that “little” trophy from them. Don’t know how difficult/easy that might be but I would guess it’s kind of important.
If you are talking about the Walker Cup, there is a story. The Walker Cup belongs to the AMA as do many other perpetual trophies that the AMA holds. This is not to mean that other SIG's might have their own perpetual trophies that they sponsor with no arrangements or conditions with the AMA. Generally, the AMA keeps their perpetual trophies and holds them in the AMA museum in Muncie. PAMPA has an agreement with the AMA that the Walker Cup will be allowed to be held by the recipient for the year he holds the title of National Stunt Champion. The agreement is that the trophy will be maintained in good order. By the time PAMPA started to manage the stunt event at the Nats in 1974, the Walker Cup was not in good shape. Many of it parts were missing. It was barely recognizable as to what it was. When Al Rabe won the cup in 1973, he found the company that made the original trophy and that they still had the specifications for it. Al had the trophy totally restored at his own expense to its original condition and made a case to help ensure its safe transportation. Since then, people on the West Coast made arrangements to add to the base to accommodate the names that are being added to it each year. The work was done well and is in keeping with the overall appearance of the trophy. It still looks the same, it just now has a larger base. The Walker Cup is in far better shape since PAMPA took responsibility for it.
Any discussion of a so called PAMPA Nats really does not make any much sense. We have a Nats run by PAMPA every year. It just so happens that it is now always in Muncie.
Keith
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If you are talking about the Walker Cup, there is a story. The Walker Cup belongs to the AMA as do many other perpetual trophies that the AMA holds. This is not to mean that other SIG's might have their own perpetual trophies that they sponsor with no arrangements or conditions with the AMA. Generally, the AMA keeps their perpetual trophies and holds them in the AMA museum in Muncie. PAMPA has an agreement with the AMA that the Walker Cup will be allowed to be held by the recipient for the year he holds the title of National Stunt Champion. The agreement is that the trophy will be maintained in good order. By the time PAMPA started to manage the stunt event at the Nats in 1974, the Walker Cup was not in good shape. Many of it parts were missing. It was barely recognizable as to what it was. When Al Rabe won the cup in 1973, he found the company that made the original trophy still had the specifications for it. Al had the trophy totally restored at his own expense to its original condition and made a case to help ensure its safe transportation. Since then, people on the West Coast made arrangements to add to the base to accommodate the names that are being added to it each year. The work was done well and is in keeping with the overall appearance of the trophy. It still looks the same, it just now has a larger base. The Walker Cup is in far better shape since PAMPA took responsibility for it.
Any discussion of a so called PAMPA Nats really does not any much sense. We have a Nats run by PAMPA every year. It just so happens that it is now always in Muncie.
Keith
If you are talking about the Walker Cup, there is a story. The Walker Cup belongs to the AMA as do many other perpetual trophies that the AMA holds. This is not to mean that other SIG's might have their own perpetual trophies that they sponsor with no arrangements or conditions with the AMA. Generally, the AMA keeps their perpetual trophies and holds them in the AMA museum in Muncie. PAMPA has an agreement with the AMA that the Walker Cup will be allowed to be held by the recipient for the year he holds the title of National Stunt Champion. The agreement is that the trophy will be maintained in good order. By the time PAMPA started to manage the stunt event at the Nats in 1974, the Walker Cup was not in good shape. Many of it parts were missing. It was barely recognizable as to what it was. When Al Rabe won the cup in 1973, he found the company that made the original trophy still had the specifications for it. Al had the trophy totally restored at his own expense to its original condition and made a case to help ensure its safe transportation. Since then, people on the West Coast made arrangements to add to the base to accommodate the names that are being added to it each year. The work was done well and is in keeping with the overall appearance of the trophy. It still looks the same, it just now has a larger base. The Walker Cup is in far better shape since PAMPA took responsibility for it.
Any discussion of a so called PAMPA Nats really does not any much sense. We have a Nats run by PAMPA every year. It just so happens that it is now always in Muncie.
Keith
Beautiful story.
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Grab the trophy? If you mean an AMA trophy or trophies they can keep them. Along with the "new era" would come all new trophies.
I am quite sure that the folks who are still alive that have their names on that trophy would disagree.
Ken
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Don't worry, that drone is going to get flown ONCE and then get tossed in the corner of the garage along with the Bread Maker his wife bought the year before and the Bowflex execise machine he used twice. Drones, at least the hobby types, don't have any staying power, we are already far onto the backside of the power curve here, they are going the way of the Pet Rock.
Only thing Multirotor toys have even slightly related to modeling is radio control, period. About 2-3 years back the rack in Barnes and Noble displayed several monthly drone market magazines. Currently I couldn't find a single one. That only confirmed my prediction that the entire detour was a fad. Second thought came to me was, then AMA president endearing quads as the future of model aviation. LL~
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I am quite sure that the folks who are still alive that have their names on that trophy would disagree.
Ken
Disagree with what? Their names are there and the history is documented, it's not like any of it would be erased in any way.
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Any discussion of a so called PAMPA Nats really does not make any much sense. We have a Nats run by PAMPA every year. It just so happens that it is now always in Muncie.
Keith
The whole point with my proposition is a complete separation from any AMA involvement with any of our C/L activities. I'm only using the NATS as an example of my idea, and "PAMPANATS" as a hypothetical contest name for the idea, explained in my reply #114. It's certainly a tall order, but could be done.
BTW, that's an excellent story about Al's work with the trophy, a VERY honorable gesture. y1
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The whole point with my proposition is a complete separation from any AMA involvement with any of our C/L activities. I'm only using the NATS as an example of my idea, and "PAMPANATS" as a hypothetical contest name for the idea, explained in my reply #114. It's certainly a tall order, but could be done.
BTW, that's an excellent story about Al's work with the trophy, a VERY honorable gesture. y1
I still am at a loss to see what we would gain by breaking away. PAMPA already runs the NATS and for that matter the entire "event". I am pretty pissed at the AMA too for totally botching the FAA negotiations and losing my AMA number and it would be nice to see more C/L in the magazine but how would any of that be better if we separated? It would be the same rat race, just a different rat.
Ken
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Every few months someone brings up this same trite about the AMA magazine. Then they are so surprised that people react.
The insurance is cheap for what you are getting. For a small group that has no interest outside its membership it is doubtful anyone would
insure such a unsafe sport. It looks unsafe to a outsider. We have all heard the question what if someone gets hit by that plane?
With the way the FAA is now I dough anyone would offer insurance that would be affordable.
So you are mad at the AMA If you complain enough maybe they will drop coverage of all CL events ~^
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I quit flying R/C, and resigned from our club, when they started flying big planes with chain-saw motors.
I didn't want my name on any club roster when one of those big planes killed some spectator, or trashed someone's car.
Also, I was protecting my own hide at the flying field.
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I quit flying R/C, and resigned from our club, when they started flying big planes with chain-saw motors.
I didn't want my name on any club roster when one of those big planes killed some spectator, or trashed someone's car.
Also, I was protecting my own hide at the flying field.
I quit RC when a bad battery crashed my heavily ballasted unlimited sailplane on an LSF Cross Country. It drifted about 1/2 mile into a residential area (well trimmed) and eventually spiraled in from at least 500'. It missed hitting a sleeping sunbather by about 5'. I was 1/2 a rotation from perhaps killing someone. I didn't fly anything again, including CL for over 30 years.
Those huge scale jobs, especially the jets, are a lawsuit looking for a place to happen.
Ken
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I quit flying R/C, and resigned from our club, when they started flying big planes with chain-saw motors.
I didn't want my name on any club roster when one of those big planes killed some spectator, or trashed someone's car.
Also, I was protecting my own hide at the flying field.
You would THINK the big models posed the biggest risk, but it has not turned out that way. Most injuries(and the few deaths) involved ordinary-sized models. Go figure. Just not that many large models.
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Every few months someone brings up this same trite about the AMA magazine. Then they are so surprised that people react.
The insurance is cheap for what you are getting. For a small group that has no interest outside its membership it is doubtful anyone would
insure such a unsafe sport. It looks unsafe to a outsider. We have all heard the question what if someone gets hit by that plane?
With the way the FAA is now I dough anyone would offer insurance that would be affordable.
So you are mad at the AMA If you complain enough maybe they will drop coverage of all CL events ~^
I'm not really sure what you are insinuating but this is by no means "trite".
In fact, I'm not really sure about the meaning of your post.
An unsafe sport? Take a look at football, hockey, sky diving and the like, where injuries are just "part of the game".
In model aviation, the injuries are caused by carelessness. And, they are, in most cases very minor, especially in Control Line flying.
Don't believe me? Look on some of the youtube RC crash videos and watch the carnage. When an RC pilot loses control, his aircraft becomes an unguided missile. I've seen multi-thousand dollar jets crash and start fires. Imagine one crashing into a crowd.
Our planes don't go free-flight.
Our sector of the sport is by no means unsafe - unless you consider an occasional cut finger or minor burn a big issue.
My 2 cents, Bob Z.
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I still am at a loss to see what we would gain by breaking away. PAMPA already runs the NATS and for that matter the entire "event". I am pretty pissed at the AMA too for totally botching the FAA negotiations and losing my AMA number and it would be nice to see more C/L in the magazine but how would any of that be better if we separated? It would be the same rat race, just a different rat.
Ken
SELF PRIDE. In no longer giving the AMA your money, and no longer subscribing to an organization that has completely lost touch and could care less about you or your hobby.
Even though it's a small amount of money each year, it's the POINT that they are way past done being any real benefit and are not, and won't be, making any moves in that direction. This whole thing should mean way more than just the continued gripe about the lack of C/L coverage in their crap magazine. As I've already repeated, I'm only using the NATS event as an example of what could be done with any and all organized C/L activities. And yes, we could consider it the same "rat race", but the idea is that the "different rats" would be the right people with the right vision, going ahead.
Anyone here who didn't take AMA President Brownhole's proclaiming drones/quads as "the future of Model Aviation" as a complete insult should be banding together and reorganizing, flipping the AMA the bird, and looking for a better organization to belong to.
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SELF PRIDE. In no longer giving the AMA your money, and no longer subscribing to an organization that has completely lost touch and could care less about you or your hobby.
Even though it's a small amount of money each year, it's the POINT that they are way past done being any real benefit and are not, and won't be, making any moves in that direction. This whole thing should mean way more than just the continued gripe about the lack of C/L coverage in their crap magazine. As I've already repeated, I'm only using the NATS event as an example of what could be done with any and all organized C/L activities. And yes, we could consider it the same "rat race", but the idea is that the "different rats" would be the right people with the right vision, going ahead.
Anyone here who didn't take AMA President Brownhole's proclaiming drones/quads as "the future of Model Aviation" as a complete insult should be banding together and reorganizing, flipping the AMA the bird, and looking for a better organization to belong to.
Well said, Wayne!
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At least somebody gets it, thank you Robert. D>K
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Anyone see the front cover of Model Aviation with Will Davis on the front cover? #^
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As I read through all this again, we have for gotten that there are people that fly other events besides stunt at the NATS. At least at the last NATS I attended. I miss the NATS because of the fellowship of the modelers in all the facets of competition. Some one mentioned RC Pattern relocating from Muncie, but they are still sanctioned by the AMA. Before the new radios the RC events were scheduled on separate days or frequencies set so there was no interference during flying of the events. RC has so many events that they can't do it in one or two weeks. it takes most of the summer. The indoor guys I don't believe have ever had a NATS in Muncie, so they fly else where.
I think some of the guys complaining on here have never attended a NATS even when they were moved around the country. If I were a billionaire I would try to get the people together and find a site to hols a CL NATS at different locations, of course it would be with an AMA sanction. The SIGs have a hard time now getting people to come to Muncie and help. AMA used to give a small pittance for those that volunteered to help but not any more. They just provide a site/facilities for the different events. I've helped with racing and carrier events and know how hard it is to get help just to come. I see now and it happened at last few racing and carrier NATS that contestants had to help time and count laps. The stunt fraternity might be able to pull off a Precision Aerobatic Control Line NATS, but I don't think the other CL events could do it. S?P
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I have come around to the conclusion that no matter where we plant the NATS, somebody is going to have to drive at least 4 days and stay out of town another 4-5 just to compete with somebody that lives across the street from the contest. There is virtually nothing we can do to make it "fair" for everybody so, I propose that we make it fair for me and relocate the NATS to Dallas so that I don't have to drive to Muncie next year. LL~
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It really doesn't bother me that our NATS is far, far away from me in Muncie. It is called "National" only because everyone is invited, and not because only the top flyers are allowed to participate. In fact, the skill level at the NATS is no different than the skill level at most regional contests. (and "regional", by definition, is closer).
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Stunt News and Model Aviation both arrived on the same day, sometime earlier this week. I finally thumbed through the Model Aviation today, and it was all I could do to put it straight into the recycling bin. I waited a good 10 minutes. :'( Steve
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As I read through all this again, we have for gotten that there are people that fly other events besides stunt at the NATS. At least at the last NATS I attended. I miss the NATS because of the fellowship of the modelers in all the facets of competition. Some one mentioned RC Pattern relocating from Muncie, but they are still sanctioned by the AMA. Before the new radios the RC events were scheduled on separate days or frequencies set so there was no interference during flying of the events. RC has so many events that they can't do it in one or two weeks. it takes most of the summer. The indoor guys I don't believe have ever had a NATS in Muncie, so they fly else where.
I think some of the guys complaining on here have never attended a NATS even when they were moved around the country. If I were a billionaire I would try to get the people together and find a site to hols a CL NATS at different locations, of course it would be with an AMA sanction. The SIGs have a hard time now getting people to come to Muncie and help. AMA used to give a small pittance for those that volunteered to help but not any more. They just provide a site/facilities for the different events. I've helped with racing and carrier events and know how hard it is to get help just to come. I see now and it happened at last few racing and carrier NATS that contestants had to help time and count laps. The stunt fraternity might be able to pull off a Precision Aerobatic Control Line NATS, but I don't think the other CL events could do it. S?P
Doc,
You must have missed my comment in Reply #144, "As I've already repeated, I'm only using the NATS event as an example of what could be done with any and all organized C/L activities"
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Stunt News and Model Aviation both arrived on the same day, sometime earlier this week. I finally thumbed through the Model Aviation today, and it was all I could do to put it straight into the recycling bin. I waited a good 10 minutes. :'( Steve
You didn't take time to read Bobby's fare well article? S?P
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It still looks the same, it just now has a larger base. The Walker Cup is in far better shape since PAMPA took responsibility for it.
Keith
I have never seen the Walker Cup. I did a search and can't find a picture. Can someone post a picture of what it looks like?
Mark
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Don't believe me? Look on some of the youtube RC crash videos and watch the carnage. When an RC pilot loses control, his aircraft becomes an unguided missile. I've seen multi-thousand dollar jets crash and start fires. Imagine one crashing into a crowd.
My 2 cents, Bob Z.
Bob, way back when I lived just outside Augusta, GA, I was invited to fly at the local airshow with a couple of other pilots from our R/C club. They gave us about a half hour window to fly while the full scale planes were taking a lunch break. I put up only one flight on the first day of the three day airshow. All I could think about while I was flying over the runway was, "What happens if I get a glitch or some kind of radio interference?" There were hundreds of people around, and it was totally nerve wracking. I'll never do anything like that again.
Mark
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I have never seen the Walker Cup. I did a search and can't find a picture. Can someone post a picture of what it looks like?
Mark
Here you go. Trophy on left, nutcase in disturbing horse mask on right.
Brett
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Must be a Tennessee Walker...?
Divot
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Must be a Tennessee Walker...?
That particular horse's ass spent considerable time in Kentucky. He would wear blue, not orange...
Brett
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Brett described it correctly; it's the Walker TROPHY. It is not a "cup." The Walker CUP is the award that is presented every other year at the F2B World Championships to the winning team, and it too was donated by Jim Walker I'm told. I have been privileged on a few occasions to have been a part of winning teams. Unfortunately, I was once responsible for the team not winning the Walker Cup. Sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug...
Huge kudos again to Al Rabe who had the Trophy restored to its original elegant condition. The only downside was that the box took up a lot of room in the car! When I won it in 1976 I was driving a 327 powered, large Chevy wagon; so room was not an issue. With today's smaller cars the winner might have more of a challenge getting it home...
Note that on the cover in the photo below that they referred to it as the Walker Cup. They were wrong...
Later - Bob Hunt
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Wow, lots of really good thoughts here.
PAMPANATS - interesting. I guess my thought here is would it, perhaps, be better to have an all-inclusive controline NATs? Carrier? Speed? Scale? To really promote the hobby I think it would be beneficial to include all of it. From a spectator perspective, carrier, speed and certainly combat are probably more interesting than stunt.
Traveling NATS, heck, we did it 40 years ago. Without the internet and with C-gas free flight. I'd hate to think we've become so inept that we couldn't do the same these days for strictly CL. Venues ideas aren't so hard, I'll toss one out: Go to race tracks. They have insurance out the ying-yang, you can make all the noise you want, they don't get upset about a little oil and fuel as long as it's off the racing surface, and if they don't need to run race operations and you organize trash cleanup they'll rent the facility pretty reasonably. They have camping, showers etc too. That's one idea from one person and none of us is as good as all of us together. My point of view is that if you eliminate R/C and Free Flight, venues become MUCH easier to find and procure.
One of the fun parts, I always thought, was traveling and the adventure aspect of the traveling NATS. Heck, I remember we went to Oshkosh one year and flew at the EAA airport, then the next year we were in Louisiana! You got to meet new people, see new places, etc. It was a lot of fun, I can tell you that.
My $.02? It's doable. We'd need a two or three year window to make it happen. It's change, and lot's (maybe most?) of people don't like change, but ongoing change and continuous improvement is one of the first things I look for in a healthy organization. [Caveat being that the change is aligned with the best interests of the organization, which is not always the case.]
Stunt - while not mainstream - is healthy. There are ongoing technical improvements, never has there been such a great selection of high-quality gear available. There are more kits available than in years past - and they're not Sterling die-crushed boat lumber. You can build a formidable competition ship that's laser cut from light wood. Competition-ready engines these days are fantastic. Electric makes contest-winning consistency available to anyone - although I still think if we're going to award appearance points to reward modeling skills, an extra 5 points for an IC engine makes sense! mw~ ARFS greatly reduced the entry barriers to newcomers. All the ingredients are here to attract new members.
I firmly believe that we need now is public outreach. Some of the guys up this way from a few towns and cities are getting organized. Since there's a dozen or so R/C fly-in events within our sphere of influence, we're putting together a little traveling circus to go to these events and display and demo. Realistically I figure if we can pick up three new CL'ers a year it's worth it. Heck, our AMA district rep might actually see some controline models and flyers and have to admit they exist!!! I'd pay money to see that. I wonder what would happen if all CL guys and gals did that across the country?
We all know how much fun CL flying is. That's why we do it.
In today's world, we don't need a magazine. We don't need a headquarters. We don't need no stinking badges. We can reach out to millions with social media. What we need is a few people with the vision, passion and talent to start the next chapter of controline. Negativism? Screw that. We have used cars on the moon dammit! (Start humming Battle Hymn of the Republic here.) Losers come up with excuses, winners find a way.
All kidding aside, I'd like to lay down a challenge here of not writing posts of why it can't be done, but rather ideas and brainstorming on how it could be done. I'll bet that if we use that approach the thing could pick up some energy and snowball rather quickly.
Maybe all this drone BS is really an opportunity.
Chuck
All of the above is IMHO and I respect and defend your right to disagree.
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All inclusive Control Line NATS would be nice. Precision Aerobatics needs circles for official flights and practice. Equipment required, stop watches, pull test scales, score sheets and a few odds and ends. Speed and racing require caged circles and watches plus things. Carrier requires a deck and watches plus score sheets. Combat needs circles for official flights and practice plus watches and streamers. and what not. I could go on and on. Just sit down some time while the dope is drying and try to ay out an all inclusive Control Line NATS. Some of the SIG's(Special interest Group) have most of the need equipment. Man power is the big if in all of it. Also would CL Scale be included?
The World Champs only had 4 events and yes it involved a lot of world countries. But ask Bill Lee how much of his life did he put into the 2004 World Champs in Muncie IN. Or ask the person who is/was the main contest director for the NATS. I've had a chance to sit in the NATS headquarters farm house and see some of the daily stuff. Brenda Schutte could probably tell you a lot about just the CL end of it.
I know I would not even attempt to try and organize it. S?P
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Wow, lots of really good thoughts here.
PAMPANATS - interesting. I guess my thought here is would it, perhaps, be better to have an all-inclusive controline NATs? Carrier? Speed? Scale? To really promote the hobby I think it would be beneficial to include all of it. From a spectator perspective, carrier, speed and certainly combat are probably more interesting than stunt.
Traveling NATS, heck, we did it 40 years ago. Without the internet and with C-gas free flight. I'd hate to think we've become so inept that we couldn't do the same these days for strictly CL. Venues ideas aren't so hard, I'll toss one out: Go to race tracks. They have insurance out the ying-yang, you can make all the noise you want, they don't get upset about a little oil and fuel as long as it's off the racing surface, and if they don't need to run race operations and you organize trash cleanup they'll rent the facility pretty reasonably. They have camping, showers etc too. That's one idea from one person and none of us is as good as all of us together. My point of view is that if you eliminate R/C and Free Flight, venues become MUCH easier to find and procure.
One of the fun parts, I always thought, was traveling and the adventure aspect of the traveling NATS. Heck, I remember we went to Oshkosh one year and flew at the EAA airport, then the next year we were in Louisiana! You got to meet new people, see new places, etc. It was a lot of fun, I can tell you that.
My $.02? It's doable. We'd need a two or three year window to make it happen. It's change, and lot's (maybe most?) of people don't like change, but ongoing change and continuous improvement is one of the first things I look for in a healthy organization. [Caveat being that the change is aligned with the best interests of the organization, which is not always the case.]
Stunt - while not mainstream - is healthy. There are ongoing technical improvements, never has there been such a great selection of high-quality gear available. There are more kits available than in years past - and they're not Sterling die-crushed boat lumber. You can build a formidable competition ship that's laser cut from light wood. Competition-ready engines these days are fantastic. Electric makes contest-winning consistency available to anyone - although I still think if we're going to award appearance points to reward modeling skills, an extra 5 points for an IC engine makes sense! mw~ ARFS greatly reduced the entry barriers to newcomers. All the ingredients are here to attract new members.
I firmly believe that we need now is public outreach. Some of the guys up this way from a few towns and cities are getting organized. Since there's a dozen or so R/C fly-in events within our sphere of influence, we're putting together a little traveling circus to go to these events and display and demo. Realistically I figure if we can pick up three new CL'ers a year it's worth it. Heck, our AMA district rep might actually see some controline models and flyers and have to admit they exist!!! I'd pay money to see that. I wonder what would happen if all CL guys and gals did that across the country?
We all know how much fun CL flying is. That's why we do it.
In today's world, we don't need a magazine. We don't need a headquarters. We don't need no stinking badges. We can reach out to millions with social media. What we need is a few people with the vision, passion and talent to start the next chapter of controline. Negativism? Screw that. We have used cars on the moon dammit! (Start humming Battle Hymn of the Republic here.) Losers come up with excuses, winners find a way.
All kidding aside, I'd like to lay down a challenge here of not writing posts of why it can't be done, but rather ideas and brainstorming on how it could be done. I'll bet that if we use that approach the thing could pick up some energy and snowball rather quickly.
Maybe all this drone BS is really an opportunity.
Chuck
All of the above is IMHO and I respect and defend your right to disagree.
Chuck,
In another attempt to clarify my suggestion I've "bolded" your first comment above referring to my hypothetical "PAMPANATS" event. I'll repeat myself again, my comment in Reply #144, "As I've already repeated, I'm only using the NATS event as an example of what could be done with any and all organized C/L activities"
It's nice to see that you get the idea, and yeah, it would be a significant change, but it is completely doable. It seems my term "PAMPANATS" has everyone assuming I'm talking about only the stunt events, which is not the case. I only coined the name "PAMPANATS" as a one event example and a comparison to the existing NATS event.
The entire "picture" or "idea" is that everyone currently involved with organizing and running any Control Line event of any type would be doing everything they're currently doing but WITHOUT ANY AMA INVOLVMENT. This isn't reinventing the wheel, it's simply moving on and ditching the AMA connection, the connection that no longer has any interest in bettering anything to do with our hobby. The overall concept is very simple, and I'm at a loss as to how to clarify the thought any more than that.
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Wayne,
Yes, understood. And, given the AMA's purpose, they would probably have to underwrite the event if it was hosted by an AMA chartered club and an AMA approved CD was involved, so that may not even be an issue.
I totally agree it's doable and it's only a matter of whether there's enough combined will within the CL community to make it happen.
Chuck
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For once, you are exactly right. Unfortunately, what they are doing is selling traditional modeling "down the river", no matter how sincere they are about it.
Brett
I recall in the traditional days I could walk into the LHS, buy a C/L kit, appropriate engine, prop, fuel tank, the correct fuel, covering, dope, bellcrank, wheels, lines and handle from someone who even knew what all the stuff was.
AMA didn't sell traditional modeling down the river, the consumers did. There are several LHS in the Twin Cities which carry Sig kits but good luck getting an engine or other required components. On the other hand, a dad can walk in with his kid and take home a ready-to-run RC car, airplane or quad.
I belong to 1 C/L club and 2 area R/C clubs. The R/C guys are surprised C/L is still flown these days. Newcomers quickly dismiss it, saying they would get too dizzy.
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I recall in the traditional days I could walk into the LHS, buy a C/L kit, appropriate engine, prop, fuel tank, the correct fuel, covering, dope, bellcrank, wheels, lines and handle from someone who even knew what all the stuff was.
AMA didn't sell traditional modeling down the river, the consumers did.
Not true, as far as the AMA is concerned anyway. The bulk of the point here is that for years now the AMA has shown zero attempt to preserve "traditional modeling", escpecially the C/L segment. Instead, they proclaim their "future" as whoring themselves out to the quad/drone market, completely snubbing the "traditional modelers" that have supported their existence from their inception. The ones here who "get it" get it, the ones who are still drinking the AMA's Kool-Aid apparently never will. D>K
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Not true, as far as the AMA is concerned anyway. The bulk of the point here is that for years now the AMA has shown zero attempt to preserve "traditional modeling", escpecially the C/L segment. Instead, they proclaim their "future" as whoring themselves out to the quad/drone market, completely snubbing the "traditional modelers" that have supported their existence from their inception. The ones here who "get it" get it, the ones who are still drinking the AMA's Kool-Aid apparently never will. D>K
I wonder how the rubber free flight bunch felt when control line started dominating? It is not that most of don't agree that the AMA is not what it used to be it is just IMHO that the solution would be no different than the disease. Things change, when we started CL was the "cool" thing and Stunt was the top of the heap. Now it is not.
We have a dedicated section in the magazine. How do you think the 90 or so events that don't have one feel. Do you think the people that fly those events are drinking the Kool-Aid too? Do we need 40 or so new AMA's?
We already function pretty much like our own organization right now. Do you see a bunch of fliers at local contests complaining about how the AMA is ruining their sport? I don't. In fact. I don't see much complaining about anything other than the weather. Now if you can fix that I am on board.
Lighten up, Stunt at our level (especially as you get older) is fun - ENJOY IT.
Ken
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I think the last traveling Nats was 1996, so 22 years ago. AMA used to spend their money prepping for and operating the Nationals. Now since they have built careers with salary and benefits for employees that contribute little to flying model airplanes.
Chris...
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I do hate to say this...but it's OVER.
Whatever AMA was...and whatever you wanted it to be...it's over.
We lost. And lost big.
It's a democracy.
CONSISTENTLY...the ten percent of members who voted CONSISTENTLY voted for the incumbents and status quo.
There have been a few people to run who had different ideas...Frank Tiano...Lawrence Tougas...and they got TROUNCED by whoever was the incumbent or the inside AMA guy. This has gone on for the last twenty years.
The direction is not going to change.
AMA has become something different from the organization I loved and supported for so many years.
IF my ideas about what AMA should be were shared by a majority, things would be different.
The fact that we just hired Chad Budreau, who is an epic failure, to be executive director kind of says it all.
The fact that we have Rich Hanson, who has been another complete failure at his previous job, now as president, speaks volumes also.
Ahhhh...well. That's life. We lost.
I'm going to pick Duco Cement off my fingies now...I'm just talking here, I'm not upset anymore.
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You think FF people were upset over CL. Look what happened when the first ignition engine flew at the NATS back then. S?P
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Hi,
The AMA magazine doesn't have C/L articles in it because no one has written one. There is plenty of talent here at Stunt Hanger you just have to write and take photos and submit it to AMA. /DV How is control line going to continue if the older experienced modelers don't get off their butts and do something constructive to our hobby? Hey, AMA will pay MONEY for articles. y1 #^ So what is stopping YOU...
Just saying.
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Hi,
The AMA magazine doesn't have C/L articles in it because no one has written one. There is plenty of talent here at Stunt Hanger you just have to write and take photos and submit it to AMA. /DV How is control line going to continue if the older experienced modelers don't get off their butts and do something constructive to our hobby? Hey, AMA will pay MONEY for articles. y1 #^ So what is stopping YOU...
Just saying.
I respectfully suggest you go back and read the entire thread, because what you say is not true.
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What part??
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I respectfully suggest you go back and read the entire thread, because what you say is not true.
Can Sparky filter this so Bob Hunt doesn't see it?
Ken
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Ahhhh...well. That's life. We lost.
I'm going to pick Duco Cement off my fingies now...I'm just talking here, I'm not upset anymore.
Let it dry and the natural oils in your skin will loosen it up and it will come off with warm water. Share your view on the AMA but what is the point of trying to change it.
Ken
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What part??
The part about the reason there are no control line articles is because nobody submits them.
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Let it dry and the natural oils in your skin will loosen it up and it will come off with warm water. Share your view on the AMA but what is the point of trying to change it.
Ken
No way! Picking glue off my fingers is still one of the great simple pleasures in life!
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LOL LL~ Show me flier who has never glued his fingers together. Skill in building is not learning how to put on a 20 point finish, it is learning how to scrape off CA without cutting yourself. y1
Ken
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The part about the reason there are no control line articles is because nobody submits them.
That's the whole idea behind of what I said!!!
You have to put how-to control line articles in the magazine to get control line back in view of potential control line modelers.
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LOL LL~ Show me flier who has never glued his fingers together. Skill in building is not learning how to put on a 20 point finish, it is learning how to scrape off CA without cutting yourself. y1
Ken
Us cagey old veterans chew the glue off our fingers! Works with all brands and types. I especially like the taste of Ambroid!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Us cagey old veterans chew the glue off our fingers! Works with all brands and types. I especially like the taste of Ambroid!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
If you want to glue your fingers together with Ambroid, though, you have to clamp them overnight...
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Whatever the reason(s) - and they are many - I'm sure glad I quit the Academy of Multirotors & ARFs last year. They're become irrelevant. Lawrence Tougas was right: They've "lost their way".
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I wonder how the rubber free flight bunch felt when control line started dominating? It is not that most of don't agree that the AMA is not what it used to be it is just IMHO that the solution would be no different than the disease. Things change, when we started CL was the "cool" thing and Stunt was the top of the heap. Now it is not.
We have a dedicated section in the magazine. How do you think the 90 or so events that don't have one feel. Do you think the people that fly those events are drinking the Kool-Aid too? Do we need 40 or so new AMA's?
We already function pretty much like our own organization right now. Do you see a bunch of fliers at local contests complaining about how the AMA is ruining their sport? I don't. In fact. I don't see much complaining about anything other than the weather. Now if you can fix that I am on board.
Lighten up, Stunt at our level (especially as you get older) is fun - ENJOY IT.
Ken
There you go Ken, even saying it yourself, you don't need them and have proven you can function perfectly well without them. I realize that and that's a large part of why I'm suggesting the evolution or "Revolution". It's one of the biggest reasons that, IMO, justifies everyone in the C/L segment telling the AMA to take a hike. Again, this should mean a lot more to everyone involved than the dead horse beating gripes about magazine content, that's not the point here. Bottom line is that the AMA is disrespecting you and is interested in doing nothing more than buying more Kool Aid mix with YOUR MONEY. Yes, things do change, and it's well past time for the C/L community to make this one. I'll also suggest a review of my capitalized opening comment in Reply #144 if you need another reason, I would hope it means something.
BTW, a light scuffing with 80 grit sandpaper works very well for taking dried CA off of your fingers. ;D
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.... you don't need them and have proven you can function perfectly well without them.
Actually I think it shows we can function perfectly well Within them. I don't think you have given full thought as to the amount of effort required to reform. Club sanctions, flying sites requiring AMA membership, contest coordination, international recognition and that is just the hard stuff. Who is going to rewrite the rule book? Who is going to mediate the conflicts that come from rewriting the rule book. What about dues? Less than AMA - not possible. Will people that fly other events like Free Flight or RC have to join both?
Please, we all feel disappointment with the AMA but it really is the only game in town.
Ken
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I actually have considered all of the above Ken, and have also considered and realize the effort it would take. Collectively though, with determination, it could be done. Yes, initially it could be viewed as a big change, but as many here know, including yourself, you're all doing 90 plus percent of all the work already. All I'm suggesting is to do the same, with everything you're already doing, but without AMA involvement. There would be no real need to rewrite any rules, and AFAIK there are no actual laws saying that any flying site has to be AMA sanctioned. Also, any club can make their own rules and agreements as far as to the usage of their flying site, all they have to do is do so.
I've also realized throughout this discussion that none of this is likely to ever happen, which really is too bad, because it should. D>K
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Will people that fly other events like Free Flight or RC have to join both?
Ken
I don't know why these "what ifs?" keep coming up about the other segments either, I've stated multiple times in this conversation that I'm only talking about Control Line activities, the others can run their show however they wish.
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I don't know why these "what ifs?" keep coming up about the other segments either, I've stated multiple times in this conversation that I'm only talking about Control Line activities, the others can run their show however they wish.
Look, even if I thought this was possible, which it isn't, I would most likely not support it for one reason. To pull this off you are going to have to convince at least 4 FAI committees to drop the AMA and recognize this new group. As that is happening, the AMA will be fielding a team that will already be recognized. You pull that one off and you belong in the State Department.
It is obvious that you do not compete, or no longer compete so you are looking at the AMA differently. I still compete and still want to compete more. Change is something that should never be undertaken for it's own sake. There has to be an outcome that is better than the current situation and I just don't see that happening.
That doesn't mean that I don't share your analysis of the AMA, I do. I just think it is better to improve it from within.
Merry Christmas - Ken
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If you want to glue your fingers together with Ambroid, though, you have to clamp them overnight...
LOL LL~ But then they are likely to warp from the shrinkage... n1
ken
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The latest issue arrived yesterday 12/24. Merry Christmas from the AMA. Total time from the mail box to the trash can was less than ten minutes. I have had enough so 2019 will be my last year. I will save myself $60.00 a year. There were some good times like the 70 and 72 NATS and a lot of nice people to remember.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Wayne Buan
AMA 14986
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Ken,
I will respectfully disagree. There will be challenges - I agree with that, but they can be overcome. FAI? Really? Why would they care who our sanctioning body is?
I'd humbly suggest that a few folks with the desire get together and do an exploratory project to see what REALLY would have to happen and what the impacts would be. Make a fact-based assessment and then report out.
This would not be an overnight transition if it occured. It would be irresponsible to do that anyway. The current system works for now but yes, the future is questionable.
Rules? We already have rules. Why would they need to be re-written? Other organizations now use AMA rules.
I'll throw another wild idea: Maybe the MAAC would sanction US controline flyers and clubs. They do a pretty good job of it in Canada now. They already have reciprocity with the AMA, it wouldn't be much of a leap to take memberships from the US. If you visit their website they actually advertise the entire spectrum of aeromodeling including video of CPLA.
https://youtu.be/ksZcNk-zGOs
I suspect MAAC would be nervous about poaching members from the AMA but I'm not all that convinced that we're nothing more than feed-money for the AMA's vision of Dronetopia anyway.
I'm pretty sure that if the will is there we can find a way not to have the NATs in the middle of nowhere.
We need to start an outreach to the other CL disciplines, gauge interest and let them know they're stakeholders in the process. This is a team project.
What I believe now is this: The AMA is more worried about it's own existence as an organization than it's support of its membership and the hobby it was created to serve. If they continue down the road they're on now we're going to be faced with a call to action whether we want to or not. We should at least lay the groundwork to be prepared for that day. If we really care about our hobby we should.
Chuck
Feel free to disagree - dialogue is progress.
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Ken,
I will respectfully disagree. There will be challenges
Chuck
Feel free to disagree - dialogue is progress.
Now this approach makes sense. None of us at this point have any clue what the actual support would be and how the AMA would react. I am a business consultant by profession and one of the biggest mistakes made by small business is underestimating how people will react to change. We all tend to think that down deep everybody agrees with us which is just plain wrong. Sometimes you find out that almost nobody agrees with you. That is one of the reasons I keep throwing out the "what if's". It is what I do for a living, can't help it.
The AMA is most likely to have one of two reactions. AMF or "Like Hell you are" What would happen for example if the AMA pulled the reciprocity with MAAC across the board if they sanctioned this new organization? What if both the AMA and this new group presented teams to the FAI? If you think that nobody would participate in a team selection for the AMA if we split - think again.
No, the only way this can have a prayer of success is if the split is friendly and supported by a minimum of about 80% of the active competition fliers, especially those of us that fly other disciplines who would be forced to join both.
Just because I keep throwing out "What If's" doesn't mean that I would not support such a move if it is popular, but just like we don't expect to win competitions with an untrimmed under powered ship, we cannot be successful with any venture like this unless we have answers (not educated guesses) to all of the "what if's" before we start down that road.
So far this discussion has really only been among a handful of us. That tells me that it is not the hot topic that we think it is and so far, I have not seen posts from anybody that I feel has a true insight into the inner workings of either the AMA or FAI. I certainly don't have either. Whatever the case, we need to keep it civil.
Merry Christmas - Ken
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A sign of the times just electric C/L and ARF C/L...……….
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A sign of progress. MODEL AVIATION magazine, (and AMA leadership) is quickly taking the place of the now defunct R.C. MODELER magazine. They are almost there. All they need do is eliminate the occasional 1 or 2 pages devoted to control line reporting. Without Bob Hunt, they now have the perfect excuse to put all C/L reporting behind them.
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What I believe now is this: The AMA is more worried about it's own existence as an organization than it's support of its membership and the hobby it was created to serve.
Chuck
That's another good way to put it. y1
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(A) Look, even if I thought this was possible, which it isn't, I would most likely not support it for one reason. (B)To pull this off you are going to have to convince at least 4 FAI committees to drop the AMA and recognize this new group. (C)As that is happening, the AMA will be fielding a team that will already be recognized. You pull that one off and you belong in the State Department.
(D)It is obvious that you do not compete, or no longer compete so you are looking at the AMA differently. I still compete and still want to compete more. (E)Change is something that should never be undertaken for it's own sake. (F)There has to be an outcome that is better than the current situation and I just don't see that happening.
That doesn't mean that I don't share your analysis of the AMA, I do. (G)I just think it is better to improve it from within.
Merry Christmas - Ken
Respectfully Ken,
(A) It would be possible with enough followers, obviously not likely, but entirely possible.
(B) If the hypothetical new organization were to become the premier and/or largest group of C/L competitors, and were no longer competing in AMA C/L events, I would think the FAI would need to take note.
(C) Not if they don't have one.
(D) Correct.
(E) True. This idea is not just for it's own sake though, it's proposed because the AMA has lost all interest in the C/L segment.
(F) PRECISELY the problem!
(G) Please refer to answer "F", the AMA has had their chance and has proven their lack of desire, it's not going to happen.
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No, the only way this can have a prayer of success is if the split is friendly and supported by a minimum of about 80% of the active competition fliers, especially those of us that fly other disciplines who would be forced to join both.
Probably true as well, admittedly very unlikely, but possible. And I'll repeat again, I'm looking at the C/L segment only, no other disciplines.
Respectfully to all,
I'm just hoping to spark some fresh thought and initiative toward the future of our C/L hobby with all of this harping. Even though I don't personally compete I have considered and very much respect those who do. It makes me sick when I think of all the great C/L names and events throughout the history of the AMA that they seem to have completely forgotten and turned their backs on. Chuck Smith put it very well with his comment in Reply #189, "The AMA is more worried about it's own existence as an organization than it's support of its membership and the hobby it was created to serve." The same is true with so many things these days, but this is one we could actually do something about. I feel very strongly that the AMA is of no real benefit to any of us anymore, competition or otherwise. Our group is simply continuing to follow the sheep IMO.
I also feel very strongly that they have given all of you (and me) a direct slap in the face with the way they have evolved while ignoring their (which is YOUR) history, and even more so with their current "visions" of the future. That complete lack of vision and respect from the AMA toward our group is why I feel it fully warrants a movement to consider and work at creating an all-new, C/L only, organization for competition and sport. Everyone knows, you're doing 90% of the work already, just make it your own. ;D
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Please, we all feel disappointment with the AMA but it really is the only game in town.
Ken
Currently, but is doesn't have to stay that way.
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Just something to consider; this seperation to a new and c/l only thing was attempted many years ago and fell flat for lack of ability to procure insurance that was affordable and for lack of leadership. I don't remember just how far back that was, but I'm sure guys like Brett and others will have the memories necessary. I was out of the loop for several years but that happened while I was still flying in competition.
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I vaguely remember when we tried to get the FAI F2 events to join together in order to have one voice for competition. D>K
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I vaguely remember when we tried to get the FAI F2 events to join together in order to have one voice for competition. D>K
Except for 1968-69 I was pretty active and involved through somewhere around 1983 and I don't remember anything more than talk so it must have been after '83.
ken
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For the record:
Doc Jackson started an initiative in the early 80's called the National control Line Coalition. Doc published a mostly monthly newsletter (8 to 16 pages) from early 82 for several years. This group was "dedicated to the preservation, enhancement and promotion of Control Line model Aviation as a sport and hobby in its many varied forms". The "Directors" were the then current presidents of each functioning control line organization known as the AMA recognized Special Interest Groups (SIG's).
The effort sort of died for lack of support. Certainly not for the lack of energy that Doc and a handful of others expended to get this up and running.
In 1977-78, a group in the South organized two AAAA Control Line Championships in Winston Salem. These were well organized and well run contests, though attendance was probably not more than what would be expected at any other "regional" contests. There are probably reasons that these were not continued, but surely some of the reasons would center on finding/maintaining suitable venues, insurance, finding sponsors, finding organizers for the various events, and getting enough participants to make the effort worthwhile. It should be noted that the AMA rules still have provisions for AAAA contests other than the Nationals.
In the preceding posts to this thread, there have been suggestions that go something like this:
People should band together WHO? WHERE ARE THEY?
Someone else should get organized WHO? WHERE ARE THEY?
This is all doable if ever there could be a collective effort to organize WHO? WHERE ARE THEY?
A few folks should get together and see what can happen WHO? WHERE ARE THEY?
So, with all of these "ideas" that offer little in the way of any specific initiative for any individuals to actually do something, what vision is being served that offers more now than we get with the few effective CL SIG's (yes, thankfully recognized by the AMA) and a Nationals flying site that is being maintained (at least somewhat by the AMA)?
Doc Jackson's NCLC and his Gazette essentially died for lack of support, interest and contributions. John Brodak's CL World magazine was not continued for perhaps many reasons, but among them were surely lack of support, interest and contributions. So, where is the LEADERSHIP, support, interest and contributions going to come from for a "New non AMA Control Line Group"? I do not think more needs to be asked of the current leadership of the few effective CL SIGs that we fortunately now still have.
Keith
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Since MAAC was brought up, hopefully I can post here without causing any grief.
Great discussion so far. Sorry so many of you are not happy with the AMA.
Speaking from personal experience sometimes it is possible to create a separate organizational body. To make a long story short, back in the early 90's I competed in car rallies (another little known sport no one knows exists in North America). Amateur motorsport is organized very similar to model aviation. We have local/regional motorsport clubs affiliated with the CASC, and through the ASN, international affiliation with the FIA. (You have the SCCA and local clubs, etc.) At the time, rally was just a subcommittee of the CASC board. We felt that they were not representing/supporting our sport to the best interests of the rally community. The Rally subcommittee was able to gain support, through proper due process within the organization, to negotiate an amicable separation from the CASC. The Canadian Association of Rally Sport was born. The process had challenges (negotiating with the ASN and the insurance company) but in the end it has worked out well to this day.
Bottom line - The prerequisite for anything like this to happen is that the sport or discipline must be well organized and functioning well within the parent organization before any changes can take place.
Take a close look at the organizational structure of control line within the AMA and compare it to other countries around the world. You may find something missing, the regular Joe CL (fly a little of this, a little of that, maybe compete a little, all just for fun kind of guy) has no more voice within the AMA than the other 194,999 members. A couple of suggestions: 1) How about a Control Line Flyer SIG to represent all control line flyers no matter what their interests? 2) Elect as associate VP in each district who's primary interest is control line. Look at ways to get organized and represented within the AMA and maybe things can improve.
Just my nickel's worth (we don't have pennies anymore).
Happy New Year,
Paul
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Thank you for that information and insight Keith. y1
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Bottom line - The prerequisite for anything like this to happen is that the sport or discipline must be well organized and functioning well within the parent organization before any changes can take place.
I would agree with that. And like has been pointed out a few times, that step seems to already be in place. For the most part the participants and other volunteers are already organizing and running their own shows, right?
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Stunt News and Model Aviation both arrived on the same day, sometime earlier this week. I finally thumbed through the Model Aviation today, and it was all I could do to put it straight into the recycling bin. I waited a good 10 minutes. :'( Steve
Going through the pile of magazines in the heap, I discovered that I made a mistake. The Model Aviation I filed in the circular file was last month's issue and this month's issue has one of Bob Hunt's fine descriptions of how to do stuff...so it has been marked with the topic and taken down to the basement shop.
Sadly, announced his retirement from doing the "Stunt" column. Let's all wish Bob a long and happy retirement! And, try to support his replacement better than we have been doing for Bob... H^^ Steve
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Going through the pile of magazines in the heap, I discovered that I made a mistake. The Model Aviation I filed in the circular file was last month's issue and this month's issue has one of Bob Hunt's fine descriptions of how to do stuff...so it has been marked with the topic and taken down to the basement shop.
Sadly, announced his retirement from doing the "Stunt" column. Let's all wish Bob a long and happy retirement! And, try to support his replacement better than we have been doing for Bob... H^^ Steve
Amen
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More good input.
I'll point out however, that organizing things like this is much, much easier today with the advance of digital communications. If there was no internet, no forums, no facebook, etc., it could be pretty hard to do. But today is different, we've seen 250,000 people organize and march on Washington in a few days.
In the previous attempts, the problem was communication - getting the message out and contacting people. Today it's pretty easy to reach anyone.
Insurance: I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but I'm willing to bet that an organization that flies models tethered to the pilot within a 150' hemisphere, that weigh less than 6 pounds, can get insurance cheaper than one that has 200mph 40 pound turbines, F1 pylon, 130cc 3D RC, 7S helicopters, C gas free flight (You just let them go?!!!) and the list goes on.
Not saying throw the tea into the harbor just yet either. Just lay the groundwork. All good pilots know you need an alternate.
Chuck
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<snip>
But today is different, we've seen 250,000 people organize and march on Washington in a few days.
Yes, but they were also mostly hired by and well financed by professional rabble-rousers chartering buses, accommodations, sani-cans, and paying the bills.
Insurance: I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but I'm willing to bet that an organization that flies models tethered to the pilot within a 150' hemisphere, that weigh less than 6 pounds, can get insurance cheaper <snip>
Bass fishing clubs usually have liability insurance, but also require the boat owners carry liability insurance. Ours set liability limits based on roughly how fast the boat was capable of attaining, basically about 45 mph and 70 mph, as I recall. I was a bit amazed that they could find an insurance company for such a small organization (maybe 35 boats in a tournament), so I'd be confident that a modelling organization would be able to do same. Remember that AMA insurance is only "secondary" insurance, coming to the rescue (hopefully) just after our homeowners or renters insurance taps out. When there is a court action, the maker of the engine, kit, control system, guy that built the model...are all subpoenaed...so just say that you made all that stuff yourself and keep it simpler! Steve
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AMA insurance is PRIMARY to the SITE OWNER.
And that is critical.
And keep in mind that most payouts are over general liability...someone tripping over a log at the field...not the models themselves.
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Has anyone noted before throwing the latest MA issue away, that the late Roger Wildman donated more than $41000 to the AMA to improve and restore the C/L areas in Muncie?? $41000 plus---Holy Crap!!! Who makes sure these funds are used as Roger intended?? D>K D>K
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Has anyone noted before throwing the latest MA issue away, that the late Roger Wildman donated more than $41000 to the AMA to improve and restore the C/L areas in Muncie?? $41000 plus---Holy Crap!!! Who makes sure these funds are used as Roger intended?? D>K D>K
Excellent point, and I immediately wondered the very same thing when I read news of Roger's donation. (I read it here on SH, not in the AMA rag) I never knew Roger any more than the name, but over the years I've put together enough things that every time I saw his name come up I respected the man as someone who clearly had a long time passion for our hobby. When I read of his donation I was amazed, an amount more than my annual salary. If the story of Roger's donation is true (?) it's extremely humbling IMO and the entire C/L community should be eternally grateful. But yes, as impressive as that is, it would be an even bigger disappointment and downright tragedy if Roger's donation wasn't solidly put to something truly beneficial to our hobby. To see that kind of money simply evaporate and disappear within some sort of AMA bureaucracy would be an incredible shame and total insult to the man. Thing is, the AMA has gotten really good at that type of thing, and if it actually gets into their hands I'd expect no more.
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Excellent point, and I immediately wondered the very same thing when I read news of Roger's donation. (I read it here on SH, not in the AMA rag) I never knew Roger any more than the name, but over the years I've put together enough things that every time I saw his name come up I respected the man as someone who clearly had a long time passion for our hobby. When I read of his donation I was amazed, an amount more than my annual salary. If the story of Roger's donation is true (?) it's extremely humbling IMO and the entire C/L community should be eternally grateful. But yes, as impressive as that is, it would be an even bigger disappointment and downright tragedy if Roger's donation wasn't solidly put to something truly beneficial to our hobby. To see that kind of money simply evaporate and disappear within some sort of AMA bureaucracy would be an incredible shame and total insult to the man. Thing is, the AMA has gotten really good at that type of thing, and if it actually gets into their hands I'd expect no more.
It is easy to do if the donation was not worded properly. If the AMA already spent that amount on CL they could simply use this instead. Effect - no donation to CL. I read that this was dedicated to expanding the LPad. If that is the case we might just get it.
Ken
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Control line drones, anyone? .25 Schneurle or .35 cross scavenge for forward propulsion, RC transmitter handle for controlling rotor speeds, and a conventional elevator to comply with AMA on .012 steel cables.
Actually I'm being a little facetious, but the drone fad is what it is. We do have a member of our AMA chapter locally, who flies conventional RC aircraft, but occasionally does some neat videos with his drone to show our flying field and activities underway. I think that as a camera platform, might add some new angles to videos of control line planes in motion.
We can't change those things round and about us that we have little control over, but we can influence that we do have control over. One way may be to have a renaissance with control line aircraft is to be regularly sending photos with activity info to the respectively state and area reps. They tell a story, and if enough district VP's show photos of CL's, could change the tides so we see more CL content.
Things won't change over night, but sometimes a few individuals with good photography and writing skills can make a difference.
Just food for thought. D>K y1 :!
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HI Guys, just read about twenty threads. Let me give a different angle than most.
1. Model aviation, including Radio Control, is a tiny obscure fragment of society. And we are the tiny fragment of the tiny fragment.
Any publicity for Model Aviation at all, is actually publicity for all of model aviation. Having worked in a hobby shop for many years, the more customers through the front door, the higher the likelihood of exposure to all avenues of model aviation.
2. I did a survey on facebook of how many control line pilots were experienced with radio control and many added free flight. It was a surprisingly high number--again, because exposure to one avenue increases exposure to all avenues, even the small avenues like ours.
Point: AMA is by far the largest opportunity for people to know of the existence of control line regardless of the percentage of the magazine. If anything, it's probably disproportionately high in our favor.
We (AMA that is) need to promote a hobby wide atmosphere of model aviation, not radio control, not drones, not control line, but model aviation (they do a pretty good job of this). This promotes transference. I came out of radio control. Other's have gone the opposite direction and then came back. I have a few ideas to increase this, but are you a master modeler, or just a master... In other words, if you get bored with radio control pylon, try radio control scale, or try control line racing, or precision aerobatics, and vice versa. This keeps all avenues alive. If you don't like it, don't do it. But some people have tunnel vision and think their discipline is the only one. Some of you are arguing "But it is!"
Lastly, drones are the first big thing to happen as a next door neighbor to model aviation. If AMA can catch a third of the drone market, there's a hundred thousand new potential modelers and even if we catch a hundredth of them eventually, through transference, we've doubled our national numbers.
David
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Model Aviation's current policy is to focus each issue on ONE thing, not have every event every issue.
Control Line had it's "turn at bat" with the recent major article on The Brodak Fly In.
Some day our turn will come again.
Every month is not Christmas or your birthday.