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Author Topic: If it walks like a duck  (Read 9064 times)

Offline RC Storick

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If it walks like a duck
« on: July 29, 2018, 12:21:21 PM »
This year at the NATS there was an airplane I thought was next years model of Yatsinko and I was assured by everyone it was not. Well, it was not next years model it was this years and it was flown at the worlds. Photo evidence coming forthwith. I wish if we are going to have a BOM they would stick to it. It is not fair to those who are abiding by the rules.

If everyone wants inclusivity we could put forth a rule change to let these planes fly at the NATS with no appearance points and un-eligible for the walker cup fly off. But whatever the rules are STICK TO THEM!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 01:08:53 PM by RC Storick »
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2018, 12:22:37 PM »
Same airplane no cockpit detail
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Offline jose modesto

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Re: If it walks like a duck Yatsinko
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2018, 01:03:48 PM »
That model has nothing to do with the Yatsenko brothers
Brett stated that this model was a kit build
With the current BOM you can purchase the wings,flaps,stab elev,fin check cowls,rudder built by other. Construc the fuse install controls,take apart hardware and paint it’s legal
Jose modesto

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: If it walks like a duck Yatsinko
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2018, 01:06:49 PM »
That’s the Sbach built by Sergey Solomyanikov, also in Ukraine. L

Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck Yatsinko
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2018, 01:07:27 PM »
That model has nothing to do with the Yatsenko brothers
Brett stated that this model was a kit build
Jose modesto

I was thinking it could possibly be another manufacturer. Now, where can I buy this kit?
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2018, 01:10:01 PM »
Someone, please tell me (or show me the link) to buy this kit.
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Offline jose modesto

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2018, 01:18:32 PM »
There is a new manufacturer ready to fly $1;200
One of his models competed in the worlds
Real nice plane
Jose modesto

Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2018, 01:19:09 PM »
This is the rule from AMA I can find

BOM Rule and Appearance Points. The
contestant need not be the builder of the model to
compete; however, no appearance points will be awarded
to the contestant who does not build and finish his/her
own model
. For contestants who do build and finish their
own models, appearance points will be awarded per the
Appearance section of the CL Precision Aerobatics
event.
AMA 12366

Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2018, 01:20:18 PM »
There is a new manufacturer ready to fly $1;200
One of his models competed in the worlds
Real nice plane
Jose modesto

Great! you said these were Kits available. If I want on where do I find them?
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: If it walks like a duck Yatsinko
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2018, 01:24:50 PM »
That model has nothing to do with the Yatsenko brothers
Brett stated that this model was a kit build

    Not quite, I think we were under the impression that it he built it based on whatever source, per the existing rules. As I recall, he had a large photo-documented book about it, maybe at Golden State in about 2013 or so.

   Everyone expects Kestes to know the rules, and signed the form saying he would comply will all the rules as part of the NATs entry (and the other contests he entered with this airplane over the last few years).  Until someone proves otherwise, that's going to be good enough for me.

    If someone has a different view, I suggest Section 18 of the AMA Competition Rules, General Section (quoted, with poor formatting, below). Neither you, Jose, or I, have any standing to protest the NATs results, not being contestants.

     Brett

Protests
Protests concerning the conduct of a meet or record trial will be considered only when presented in writing, by a contestant or official in that event, to the Contest Director no later than one (1) hour after the close of the contest or record trials. The protest must report in full the action or decision, the names of entrants and officials involved and completed details. The Contest Director must accept the protest. He may return it to the protester with his reasons, in writing, for not acting on it, but he should make every effort to assist the protester in acquiring any information he may need to present a complete document in the proper form. This section applies to all AMA-sanctioned competition concerning events involving rules included in this rule book. Protests concerning matters apart from conduct of a contest may be directed in writing, within three (3) days, to the Contest Board Chairman as in the “appeal” paragraph. If the problem is related to any official’s actions, a copy of the protest should be sent to those officials. A person who is the subject of a protest action shall be so notified and shall be invited to submit a written statement before the protest is acted upon.
18.1. Protest Procedures
Whether a protest is to be submitted within one (1) hour of the close of a meet or within three days (3) depends upon the nature of the meet.
a. Where the protest affects the presentation of awards or the results of the meet do not determine who is eligible to take part in a following meet, as is the case of most AMA contests, the one-hour rule applies.
b. Where the results of one meet determine who is eligible to take part in a following meet, as is the case with FAI qualification meets, the three-day rule applies.
Academy of Model Aeronautics 18
                                                Models damaged in landing are not to be disqualified except for safety reasons as may be determined by the Contest Director.
        The CD, at an AMA sanctioned event shall have irrevocable authority to disqualify or prevent from flying any participant whose ability to fly is impaired (in the CD’s opinion) by the use of alcohol or drugs.
                                                                                                     Competition Regulations | General Information | All Categories
    Executive Council Jurisdiction
18.1.1.
18.2.
18.3. Appeal
Protestant and/or the person who is the subject of the protest may appeal a CD’s protest decision by sending the CD’s answer to the protest, together with the reason for appeal, in writing, within three (3) days after the date of the CD’s decision, to the appropriate Contest Board Chairman.
18.3.1.
18.3.2.
Contest Board Jurisdiction
    In case of doubt as to whether a contestant is eligible to fly in a meet or event, he shall be permitted to fly, pending final determination of his status; except that where team elimination match or heat-type flying is involved, the decision in dispute must be resolved by the CD before the next step in the event schedule and his decision will be final.
                        CDs must answer protests received in accordance with the “protests” paragraph within one hour after receipt of protest in writing to the protestant, with reasons for decision.
                            The Contest Board Chairman must rule, no later than three (3) days after receipt of the appeal, in writing to the protestant and the person who is the subject of the protest, with reasons for his decision, with copies of the decision to be forwarded to the AMA President and the Technical Director.
                    Only if the procedures in the “protests” and “appeal” paragraphs do not produce decisions by the official’s concerned, or if it is essential to obtain a decision in less time than that provided, the protestant may appeal directly to the AMA President. The President will follow up his action by sending written copies of his decision to the protestant, the CD, the appropriate Chairman, and the AMA Technical Director. Any action of the President will be final without further recourse or appeal. If there is insufficient time for the appeal procedures to operate completely, the decision of the last official involved will be final without further recourse or appeal.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2018, 01:26:14 PM »
One thing I would like to add. If one guy builds a scratch built plane in Ukraine and one or 2-3-4-5 ETC. built them in other places in the world with varying abilities in construction techniques they will not look like they came out of the same mold unless they did.
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck Yatsinko
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 01:28:25 PM »
    Everyone expects Kestes to know the rules, and signed the form saying he would comply will all the rules as part of the NATs entry. Until someone proves otherwise, that's going to be good enough for me.

     Brett

This is not a rag on Kestes. It's a rant on our system that does not work. It does not work because it takes everyone to make it work.
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Offline jose modesto

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2018, 01:41:30 PM »
The Yatsenko can provide you with a kit that is AMA compliant. You must acquaint your self with the BOM rule Robert
They are very specific.
Jose modesto

Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2018, 01:44:17 PM »
The Yatsenko can provide you with a kit that is AMA compliant. You must acquaint your self with the BOM rule Robert
They are very specific.
Jose modesto

I can read Jose" this is from the AMA

BOM Rule and Appearance Points. The
contestant need not be the builder of the model to
compete; however, no appearance points will be awarded
to the contestant who does not build and finish his/her
own model. For contestants who do build and finish their
own models, appearance points will be awarded per the
Appearance section of the CL Precision Aerobatics
event.

is there a new rule?
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2018, 01:45:44 PM »
The Yatsenko can provide you with a kit that is AMA compliant. You must acquaint your self with the BOM rule Robert
They are very specific.
Jose modesto

The
contestant need not be the builder of the model to
compete; however, no appearance points will be awarded
to the contestant who does not build and finish his/her
own model


No I want that kit and you said it was NOT a YS.
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Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2018, 01:51:45 PM »
I'm sure that Ruslan The line guy can give you the contact details of Solomyanikov.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2018, 01:52:49 PM »
I might have thrown away my 50 bucks If I had the pictures from the worlds I posted above. But since they started the 50 dollar rule it in their best interest to rule against you as they get to keep it then. Does not makes sense. They are doing less and less for us. Where were they in the last meeting in Congress? I guess all members needed to pay an extra 50 to get them to show up.
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Offline jose modesto

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2018, 02:52:01 PM »
Robert.erik v. And company created a very specific BOM rule that allows a certain amount of prefabrication for a BOM compliant model
You use to have it at top of this Forum.
If you read that rule you will understand how you can comply with AMA BOM.
And yes I know you can read. You created the best CL forum on the net.
Jose modesto

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2018, 02:52:49 PM »
Too bad he didn't put the AMA number on the proper wing panel? S?P
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2018, 03:19:01 PM »
I can read Jose" this is from the AMA

BOM Rule and Appearance Points. The
contestant need not be the builder of the model to
compete; however, no appearance points will be awarded
to the contestant who does not build and finish his/her
own model. For contestants who do build and finish their
own models, appearance points will be awarded per the
Appearance section of the CL Precision Aerobatics
event.

is there a new rule?

The rule you quoted is not the current AMA BOM rule. It might be an explanation of appearance points, but it's not the BOM.

As far as Kestis is concerned, I was told that he designed the plane, made the molds, and made his plane. I haven't heard anyone dispute that...

Derek


Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2018, 03:26:27 PM »
The rule you quoted is not the current AMA BOM rule. It might be an explanation of appearance points, but it's not the BOM.

As far as Kestis is concerned, I was told that he designed the plane, made the molds, and made his plane. I haven't heard anyone dispute that...

Derek

I am now in contact with the Russian designer and manufacturer of this plane (kit). We shall see where this shakes out.
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Offline James Mills

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2018, 03:46:43 PM »
The rule you quoted is not the current AMA BOM rule. It might be an explanation of appearance points, but it's not the BOM.

As far as Kestis is concerned, I was told that he designed the plane, made the molds, and made his plane. I haven't heard anyone dispute that...

Derek

I was told the same about Kestis plane.  I would add that after talking with him and looking at the plane it was pretty cool. 

James
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Online Paul Walker

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2018, 03:53:16 PM »
Kestutis told me he designed the plane in CAD. He had the molds made and built it himself. Nothing stops him from sharing that info with others so they can produce it en mass.

As Brett said, he says he made it, signed the AMA form, thus he did. As such, even if protested at the Nat's by an entrant, the AMA will rule in favor of the entrant, who signed the form,  every time. I was informed of this when I was the Nat's ED for 3 years.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2018, 04:12:39 PM »
As such, even if protested at the Nat's by an entrant, the AMA will rule in favor of the entrant, who signed the form,  every time.

This is what's wrong. I built a Harley-Davidson once from the castings up
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2018, 04:16:16 PM »
I can read Jose" this is from the AMA

BOM Rule and Appearance Points. The
contestant need not be the builder of the model to
compete; however, no appearance points will be awarded
to the contestant who does not build and finish his/her
own model. For contestants who do build and finish their
own models, appearance points will be awarded per the
Appearance section of the CL Precision Aerobatics
event.

is there a new rule?

You are quoting the rule for skill-class stunt.  See section 2.1, which details the builder of the model requirements, and applies to event 322.  it could be pointed out much more clearly that it applies to event 322 -- and no, "oh, everyone knows that" doesn't cut it for me.  It could also specify that "builder of the model" will be abbreviated as BOM later in the document -- it's referred to as "Builder of the Model" in section 2.1, then "BOM" in subsequent sections.  Sloppy rules lead to pissed-off contestants.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: If it walks like a duck Yatsinko
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2018, 04:51:47 PM »
This is not a rag on Kestes. It's a rant on our system that does not work. It does not work because it takes everyone to make it work.

   I didn't see it that way, either, so I wasn't trying to catch you on something. And you are absolutely right about everyone.  That *everyone* includes the people in a position to protest or to otherwise object to it when it will make a difference. I have no knowledge of any prior actions or what was claimed in local contests about appearance points (aside from what I mentioned) and the NATS is it when it comes to BOM or don't fly.

  In any case, I am not the arbiter of BOM, so I have no more say or influence on the situation than anyone else, less than you in fact (since I wasn't at the NATs and thus had no stake in the outcome either way).

   The quick answer to the entire thing is that *I don't know* for sure. I have gone with what people who were charged with figuring it out said, and assume that my fellow competitors are no less honorable than I am. That certainly allows for someone, whoever, getting away with something if they wanted to, but I can't add anything or control that situation.

    Brett

   

Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2018, 05:04:32 PM »
Robert.erik v. And company created a very specific BOM rule that allows a certain amount of prefabrication for a BOM compliant model
You use to have it at top of this Forum.
If you read that rule you will understand how you can comply with AMA BOM.
And yes I know you can read. You created the best CL forum on the net.
Jose modesto

That model has nothing to do with the Yatsenko brothers
Brett stated that this model was a kit build
With the current BOM you can purchase the wings,flaps,stab elev,fin check cowls,rudder built by other. Construc the fuse install controls,take apart hardware and paint it’s legal
Jose modesto

Took some time to find this.

The CD shall make every reasonable effort to ascertain that each pilot has
completely “constructed‟ the model(s) the pilot uses in competition, with
“constructed” to be interpreted as the action required to complete a model
starting with no more prefabrication than acquiring 1 of the 2 main
structures preassembled prior to merging and finishing. The 2 main
structures are considered to be: 1) the wing(s) and 2) the fuselage(s).
Flaps, rudders, elevators & horizontal stabilizers are not considered main
structures, therefore there are no limitations on level of their
prefabrication, and only the finish portion of this rule applies to them. In
unconventional stunt designs, such as a multi-engine wing with engine
nacelles, or a flying wing, they are to be considered as multiple merged
structures, so no level of prefabrication is allowed, and on multi wing
planes, the wing total counts as one structure, but the pilot must be the one
who joins and aligns the multiple wings together. In the case of take-apart
models, the take-apart hardware must be installed by the pilot. The pilot
must be the person who applies the finish to the plane, to “finish” meaning
the pilot fills the surfaces and applies the covering and finish to the
completed model where covering and finish is applied. Whereas on the
surface of the main structures, molded structural surface underlayment’s
including but not limited to molded fiberglass, or carbon fiber that are
filled or colored as a result of the manufacturing process that may show as
part of the final finish may be used, as long as this surface underlayment is
applied, filled and colored by the pilot. Control systems such as but not
limited to the bellcrank, control horns, pushrods, etc. may be purchased,
but must be installed by the pilot. Other accessories and hardware may be
purchased or otherwise obtained for their function such as, but not limited
to: engines, tanks, wheels, canopies, airframe take-apart hardware, and
have no bearing in the way “main structures” are counted.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2018, 05:15:54 PM »
That's it.

Derek

Offline RC Storick

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2018, 06:42:03 PM »
So, we have threads going that are against the FAI rule of a lack of a BOM and other threads questioning the enforceability and integrity of the AMA rules?  Interesting...

Quote from: Paul Walker

As Brett said, he says he made it, signed the AMA form, thus he did. As such, even if protested at the Nat's by an entrant, the AMA will rule in favor of the entrant, who signed the form,  every time. I was informed of this when I was the Nat's ED for 3 years.

If the AMA is not going to enforce the rules why do we need a rule book? It is just a fun fly then.
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2018, 07:01:16 PM »
Three ways to enforce BOM.

1. Basic human ethics and integrity.
2. The model is obviously a factory product.
3. People know that the airplane was built and flown by somebody else.





Paul Smith

Online Brett Buck

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2018, 07:06:13 PM »
So, we have threads going that are against the FAI rule of a lack of a BOM and other threads questioning the enforceability and integrity of the AMA rules?  Interesting...

  I think you have massively missed the point of the other thread. It has nothing to do with the actual content of the rules. It is about the fact that we (world stunt fliers and administrators) appear to have absolutely no control over what goes into the rules, with agreements over the right way to proceed by the most knowledgeable people later torpedoed by people who have absolutely no stake at all in the event, and are entirely unaccountable for their actions.

   Brett

Offline Jim Mynes

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2018, 07:45:05 PM »
A mold is a tool, just like an exact-o knife.

If I buy a mold, then inject magic resin, and out pops an airplane, I am the builder of the model.
If my buddy comes over, borrows my molds, injects magic resin... he is the builder of the model.

It’s a different method of construction using non traditional materials.

Now if the airplane is purchased, borrowed, or given away, the new owner is not the builder of the model. Just like a balsa model.

I can see where a small portion of these new fangled molded airplanes could be legal for BOM purposes, but molds are pretty expensive so many airplanes would have to be sold to recoup that investment. One would think the vast majority of them would be ineligible.

I have seen the light, and it’s powered by a lipo.

Offline Trostle

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2018, 01:35:43 AM »
You are quoting the rule for skill-class stunt.  See section 2.1, which details the builder of the model requirements, and applies to event 322.  it could be pointed out much more clearly that it applies to event 322 -- and no, "oh, everyone knows that" doesn't cut it for me.  It could also specify that "builder of the model" will be abbreviated as BOM later in the document -- it's referred to as "Builder of the Model" in section 2.1, then "BOM" in subsequent sections.  Sloppy rules lead to pissed-off contestants.

Please explain what is so difficult to understand about our AMA rules for CLPA or where the rules are "sloppy" regarding our AMA BOM requirements.

Now, the following applies ONLY to our AMA rules and has nothing to do with whatever is swirling around in the fuzzy processes of the FAI.

Until several years ago, the BOM rule that applied to our CL PA event was only defined in the AMA rules for "General Information All Categories".  The wording of that general rule for all model aircraft has remained virtually unchanged for a number of years, like since the 1960's.  The wording of that rule was conceived in an era when BOM compliant models were constructed as the action "required to complete a model starting with no more prefabrication than the amount used in the average kit. Models which are completely prefabricated and require only a few minutes of unskilled effort for their completion shall be excluded from competition."  It still contains the provision that the AMA General rules for BOM "applies to every AMA event unless specifically noted otherwise in the rules governing that event."  (See AMA General Rules for sanctioned events, Paragraph 6.)

Over the years in our CLPA event, the concept of an "average kit" has become blurred and purchased foam wings and purchased wing assemblies had become generally accepted for builders to use in the construction of their CLPA models and still be compliant with the AMA General BOM rule.  Also, over those years, there was a very vocal minority that objected that if such wings are used then the model is NOT BOM compliant.  Threats were made that every CLPA model at the Nats with foam wings or purchased wing assemblies would be formally protested.  The fact that the Genie was already out of the bottle when purchased wings (foam or wood construction) were widely accepted starting in the 60's when such wings appeared and generally accepted to compete at all levels of competition.   The AMA Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board addressed this situation and developed the current wording which recognized the fact that the Contest Board felt the majority of CLPA competitors believed using purchased wings was BOM compliant.  The wording currently in the AMA CLPA rule book, Paragraph 2.1 took several rules change cycles to develop and applies to all of our CLPA events, event numbers 322, 323, 324, 325, and 326.  That is the rule quoted by Robert Storick in Post #26 above.  (As noted above, the AMA General BOM rule no longer applies to our CLPA event.)  It should also be understood that the Nats is the only contest in the US that applies the rules for event 322 which defines the age classifications for the event and enforces the CLPA BOM rule.  Virtually all other CLPA events here in the US follow the rules for the Skill Classes, events 323 - 326. 

Now go to the Skill Classes, events 323-326, and you will find that BOM rule and appearance points specifically do not apply to the beginners event, event 323.  For events 324, 325 and 326, Intermediate, Advanced and Expert classes, the rules are clear that the contestant need not be the builder of the model to compete but will forego the award of appearance points.  "For contestants who do build and finish their own models, appearance points will be awarded per the the appearance section of the CL Precision Aerobatics event."

Our CLPA rules for events 324, 325 and 326 allow contests to be held that do not require the BOM in any form and do not award appearance points.  This practice is followed at several contests around the country. 

It is interesting to note that during the FAI processes to define their own BOM rule, they used the concept/wording of our BOM rule as defined in our CLPA rule book.

So please explain what is so "sloppy" with our CLPA rule book regarding our BOM rule.  These rules were generated to avoid a major problem being posed by a small group of vocal malcontents that could have seriously done harm to our event.  Now, if there is a majority of CLPA modelers that feel purchased wings and such items that are now specifically allowed in our CLPA BOM rules, let them speak up.  If there is such a group within PAMPA or some website or even organized outside the provinces of PAMPA, then let them speak up and so advise the CL Aerobatics Contest Board.

One thing to remember, as long as we have any form of a BOM rule, it can only exist on the integrity of all participants of this event.  Hopefully, honesty, peer pressure, and disciplined action by Contest Directors can maintain a meaningful BOM policy.

There is one aspect of our rule book that is a bit "awkward" where our basic CLPA event 322 is defined in whole at the beginning of the CLPA rule book, including the maneuver descriptions and diagrams.  Then, after a lengthy Judges' Guide and 36 pages later, there are the provisions for the Skill Classes, events 323- 326.  Attempts to integrate the Skill Classes as part of the overall CLPA rules, rather than have them appear almost as an afterthought following the Judges' Guide have not been very productive.

Keith
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 08:58:42 AM by Trostle »

Online Crist Rigotti

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2018, 07:16:15 AM »
Nicely said Keith.
Crist
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2018, 08:37:07 AM »
If you wanted to you could define what IS is.  I design my own, cut every stick of wood,  make my own cranks, horns, fuel tanks and draw/ cut my own paint masks.......so where shall the lines be?  :-))

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2018, 08:51:25 AM »
Please explain what is so difficult to understand about our AMA rules for CLPA or where the rules are "sloppy" regarding our AMA BOM requirements.

  • In any sort of writing where you resort to three letter abbreviations (TLAs), the first use of the phrase should be spelled out clearly, and then the abbreviation should be placed, in parenthesis, immediately after the spelled-out phrase.  The rules document does not do this.  The only place where "BOM" and "builder-of-the-model" are tied together is in section 15.5.3, and there it is indirect and terse -- the reader is forced to (A), read the entire document, and then (B) infer a connection between "BOM" and "builder of the model".  Newcomers to the sport have precious little way of knowing that the sections (15.6.2. 15.7.2 & 15.8.2) on the "BOM rule" in intermediate-expert relate in any way shape or form to section 2.1.
  • Because section 2.1 does not clearly state that it only fully applies to event 322, and the above-mentioned sections do not call out section 2.1 either by number or by name as not being fully applicable.
  • Because of both of the above, and because fixing it would only require an extra ten to twenty words out of a document that has to be 5000-10000 words long.
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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2018, 09:45:30 AM »
  • In any sort of writing where you resort to three letter abbreviations (TLAs), the first use of the phrase should be spelled out clearly, and then the abbreviation should be placed, in parenthesis, immediately after the spelled-out phrase.  The rules document does not do this.  The only place where "BOM" and "builder-of-the-model" are tied together is in section 15.5.3, and there it is indirect and terse -- the reader is forced to (A), read the entire document, and then (B) infer a connection between "BOM" and "builder of the model".  Newcomers to the sport have precious little way of knowing that the sections (15.6.2. 15.7.2 & 15.8.2) on the "BOM rule" in intermediate-expert relate in any way shape or form to section 2.1.
  • Because section 2.1 does not clearly state that it only fully applies to event 322, and the above-mentioned sections do not call out section 2.1 either by number or by name as not being fully applicable.
  • Because of both of the above, and because fixing it would only require an extra ten to twenty words out of a document that has to be 5000-10000 words long.


   Minor and arguable defects that have no bearing at all on the matter at hand, or the crux of the problem. I presume that if you have enough mobility to throw stones at a fairly massive and laudable effort, you should be able to bang out a corrective rule proposal in about 10 minutes.

    I know no more about this particular situation than I stated above, however, there are three immutable principles of rulemaking that apply in the extreme to BOM, and that cannot be avoided and must be considered:
 
  • The more complex the rules, the more opportunities exist to exploit them
  • If you can't objectively determine the answer, compliance will rely on the honesty and good will of the participants
  • You cannot do anything to avoid #1 and #2

    #1 suggests not having ever-more-complex "laundry lists" of acceptable and unacceptable practices. #2 makes that unnecessary or pointless.

     In the history of this event (over the last 40 years I have been involved) I have seen or heard of exactly 3 clear examples*1 of cheating*2, and only 1 where I was essentially sure of it but didn't have any way to prove it. There have been maybe 3-4 times when I suspected it, but not nearly sure enough to make an issue of it. Over that amount of time, that seems like a pretty darn good reason to think we can trust people, and even if every single example was someone getting away with it, it doesn't seem like a widespread problem that requires elaborate solutions.

   Brett

*1 Two examples of  the same person inserting an allen wrench in eyelets during the pull test, one case where an individual later admitted that he did it because he knew he could get away with it - even though what he was doing was definitely arguably not a violation, he sure thought it was and was using the same logic to point the finger at others on the same principle.
*2 cheating being defined as knowingly violating a rule, as opposed to following it the way they understood it, but other people had a different interpretation. Most "cheating" accusations fall into the latter category, where something is ambiguous, usually due to Rule #1, where the more you write, the more ambiguous and open to interpretation it gets.

Offline BYU

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2018, 09:50:30 AM »
How can anyone say they built their own model if they buy components somebody else made?  If you buy wings already assembled or cut out, (or any other subassembly)  then you did not build the model.   

I think they should have a class of competition called "Real Modelers Class" where the plane is built from plans.  The modeler in this class must cut their own parts (foam or balsa), build it, cover and paint themselves.  Then those who want to compete in another class where prebuilt components are used they can, but it will not be called build your own. 


Almost any modeler who builds, uses prefabricated components to complete their model, it just depends how far you want to take a “Real Modelers Class”.

It is somewhat retrograde to expect an own built model not to include a prefabricated part of some nature in it’s build, but just how much should be allowed?

A horn or bellcrank is a prefabricated part, stranded leadouts are a component made by someone else, as are tissue and glass fibre cloths. The ic engine or electric motor, prop, and mounts are all prefabricated.

Ultimately some form of prefabrication has to be permissible in BOM rules and I am with the current compromise situation which allows for some prefabricated items to be included. I create my own molds and make everything from props, fuselages and cowls, to even complete wings for my own use. I do this because I enjoy the challenge of creating my own model. I also have no reservation in using a prebuilt part such as a wing or tail assembled by a world class builder and flyer. Because I know I will spend very considerable time assembling the other parts and finishing them to a standard that can garner appearance points to help my meager flight scores.

If you ask any pro builder or flyer they will often be happy to explain that assembly and painting taking a good deal of time and expertise - some 2/3rds of the build time is often allocated to them to get a model complete and in the air.

I would contend we already have a “Real Modelers Class” and the majority of builders and flyers are happy it’s that way.


Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2018, 10:52:26 AM »
Sounds like a funny story!  I guess my point is it’s funny wherever your particular spot in the sand is is where the line is drawn.  It would be a small contest indeed where everyone MUST do it my way.  At different stations in the hobby it makes sense to use available items to get your bird in the air and not have to re-invent the wheel.  (I do buy my wheels).   It’s hard to say about some things.  At the Nats I spent a good part of one day flying with Kestas and launching the plane.  I couldn’t tell you for sure one way or the other whether he ‘built’ it or not which also means I couldn’t have disputed a claim either way.  That , and the AMA number issue I felt like I wasn’t going to worry about unless there was a formal complaint (the only mentions of either have been on this forum). Then I would have handed him a magic marker and asked him to scribble his number on the other side.  It was his first Nats and it wasn’t a reason to spoil it for him.  All this about foam wings etc. got out of the barn a LONG time ago and isn’t worth rehashing.    It works pretty well and the active participants are mostly satisfied.

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2018, 11:09:54 AM »
I remember when the ARF's came on the scene.  I even said it was good because some guys do not have a place to build a plane and would like to fly.  Yes it also takes room to assemble one.   My bed room was my place to build planes back a long time ago.   At bed time every thing went under the bed.  I have seen guys give up appearance points and out fly most of the entrants in skill classes.  The age classes require the entrant to build their own plane for AMA competition.   but how many contests are run using age classes.   Their are several Juniors and Seniors that fly circles around this old man and have done it for years. 


I have watched the local stock car guys/gals compete at the local tracks.   Several have bought cars so they can race but if the car breaks they have to pay some one or have some one fix it for them.   The there are the guys/gals that built their car from the ground up,  in the case of factory stock using a vehicle from the scrap/junk yard.  Yes we have a couple that state they wish they had the money so and so does to have a competitive car to race.  Myself I could care less if a dozen people show up to fly/compete with prebuilt planes.  We need more people flying if only just for the fun of it.


I guess what I'm trying to say is,  fly by the rules of what ever you want to fly.    S?P   
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2018, 11:11:49 AM »
Rusty, I have a similar situation all the time at the airfield. Mine may not be 20 pointers, but I built them.
However! Let me add this! (I get carried away with the exclamation points sometimes because I think I'm important!) - I was told I'm NOT a "Real Modeler" because I build from kits. Not recently, and not by control line guys, but just thinking how many out there share that opinion?
I've also heard the statement, "yeah well you didn't design it, so it doesn't really matter" when I presented my scratch built DLG gliders.
Within the control line community, however I've always felt like people have accepted me as a model builder, and have heard no negativity about my planes. I guess we'll have to accept people's word for it, that they built it.
Jim Hoffman was walking around at VSC taking info on planes and was asking if the pilot built them. He came up to mine and said,  " I know you built them. There's lots of pics! " I thought that was really cool.

Offline Trostle

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2018, 11:58:39 AM »
  • In any sort of writing where you resort to three letter abbreviations (TLAs), the first use of the phrase should be spelled out clearly, and then the abbreviation should be placed, in parenthesis, immediately after the spelled-out phrase.  The rules document does not do this.  The only place where "BOM" and "builder-of-the-model" are tied together is in section 15.5.3, and there it is indirect and terse -- the reader is forced to (A), read the entire document, and then (B) infer a connection between "BOM" and "builder of the model".  Newcomers to the sport have precious little way of knowing that the sections (15.6.2. 15.7.2 & 15.8.2) on the "BOM rule" in intermediate-expert relate in any way shape or form to section 2.1.
  • Because section 2.1 does not clearly state that it only fully applies to event 322, and the above-mentioned sections do not call out section 2.1 either by number or by name as not being fully applicable.
  • Because of both of the above, and because fixing it would only require an extra ten to twenty words out of a document that has to be 5000-10000 words long.

Good points.  During the last rules change cycle, there were a number of small corrections in format that were incorporated in the rules by a formal change proposal, many to correct the kind of areas you outline above.  This proposal included several pages that just got into proper use of commas, parentheses, colons, placement of paragraphs and a myriad of other items.  In the process of incorporating those changes, the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) gave the Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board (CLACB) access to their AMA master file where we could incorporate these changes and make even more adjustments that were not included in formal change proposal for similar "incidental" items.  The intent of the rules were not changed.  The result was a much cleaner document.  However, a casual reader of the new rule book would hardly notice any of the "adjustments" incorporated.  Having spent a career living with military regulations and military documents, I am well aware of the practice that any time a brevity code is used, or what you call three letter abbreviations (TLAs), and not all brevity codes are limited to three letters, the term is to be spelled out the first time it is used.  With the material that I worked with, the policy was to spell out the brevity code each time it first appears on a page of a document and any page thereafter.  This is something that was missed in that "rework" of our rulebook in the last change cycle.  I am not making an excuse for overlooking this format to be used for the Builder of the Model (BOM) in the rulebook, but the reality is that a significant majority within Control Line Precision Aerobatics (CLPA) community knows what the TLA for BOM stands for.
 
Your CL Aerobatics Contest Board will welcome your proposal in the next rules change cycle to incorporate the improvements you suggest.  (I am sure you are aware that any AMA member can submit a change proposal to the rule book.)  However, it might be possible for the Contest Board to request the AMA to make these incidental adjustments when the new rule book is published prior to January, 2019.  So thank you for your suggestion and for your proposal if you submit one if we cannot get this matter corrected prior to publishing the next rule book.

Now, since you are concerned about detail and "correctness", you state in your second bullet above that Paragraph 2.1 of our CLPA rules "does not clearly state that it only fully applies to event 322".  Where is it in the rules that even suggests that Paragraph 2.1 "only fully applies to event 322"?   Paragraph 2.1 is "clearly" in the section applicable to events 322, 323, 324, 325, and 326 where appearance points are added to a contestant's flight score.  Nowhere in the rule book is the implication, as you suggest, that Paragraph 2.1 applies only to event 322. 

Now, when we get to Section 15 which introduces the Skill Classes, the exception that the Builder of the Model (BOM) is not required for these classes with the attendant forfeiture of appearance points.  It is clear in this section that the usual convention of spelling out the term "Builder of the Model" is not followed by the TLA (BOM).  This is the way the rules for Skill Classes were introduced into our rule book many years ago (like the 1980's) and has never been corrected to a more standard writing convention.  Again, your formal proposal to incorporate a more acceptable convention will be gladly reviewed by your CLACB.  It would be appropriate in your change proposal for this BOM matter in the Skill Classes to clearly include a reference to Paragraph 2.1 of our CLPA rules.  Your attention to detail is appreciated.

Keith


Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2018, 12:07:22 PM »
Now, since you are concerned about detail and "correctness", you state in your second bullet above that Paragraph 2.1 of our CLPA rules "does not clearly state that it only fully applies to event 322".  Where is it in the rules that even suggests that Paragraph 2.1 "only fully applies to event 322"?   Paragraph 2.1 is "clearly" in the section applicable to events 322, 323, 324, 325, and 326 where appearance points are added to a contestant's flight score.  Nowhere in the rule book is the implication, as you suggest, that Paragraph 2.1 applies only to event 322.

I was thinking I should submit a proposal, since I brought it up.

Section 2.1 says, in summary, "build it yourself or don't fly, here's what we mean by build it yourself".  The sections in the skill class events say "oh, you can fly after all, but with a loss of points".  I'll give some thought to how section 2.1 may be tweaked to make it clear that the "build it yourself or don't fly" part only applies to 322 without engendering confusion.

(And yes, I know that doing anything with section 2.1 is poking a long snake with a short stick -- witness the emotion in this thread.  So I'll just submit my proposal and then hide behind y'all if things get hot!)
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2018, 12:52:43 PM »
At my RC field this weekend I was the only guy both Saturday and Sunday that had a plane I made. 

The other guys aren't very interesting to talk to, are they?
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Offline Trostle

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2018, 01:09:42 PM »
How can anyone say they built their own model if they buy components somebody else made?  If you buy wings already assembled or cut out, (or any other subassembly)  then you did not build the model. 

(Clip)

I think they should have a class of competition called "Real Modelers Class" where the plane is built from plans.  The modeler in this class must cut their own parts (foam or balsa), build it, cover and paint themselves.  Then those who want to compete in another class where prebuilt components are used they can, but it will not be called build your own. 

(Clip)


The Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board (CLACB) spent nearly 4 years to develop the wording for the Builder of the Model (BOM) rule that is now in the Control Line Precision Aerobatics (CLPA) rule book.  The collective action of the CLACB was based on the understanding that the majority of the Control Line Precision Aerobatics (CLPA) community had and have accepted that foam and prebuilt wings can be incorporated in models flown in CLPA competition.  What the CLACB wanted to recognize that in order to complete a competition CLPA model, significant skills were required.  These skills include but are not limited to proper alignment of the components, installation of a good control system, and the covering/finish of the model.  These factors are spelled out in the BOM requirements of Paragraph 2.1 in the CLPA rule book.

A builder can purchase/obtain the most perfectly constructed wings available on the market but still cannot automatically assemble a competitive CLPA model.  However, Paragraph 2.1 clearly requires that the builder/pilot is the one who assembles and aligns the components and in the case of take-apart models, the take-apart hardware must be installed by the pilot.  The pilot is also the one required to apply the finish to the plane and is defined in more detail in Paragraph 2.1.

For those who would like to "have a class of competition called 'Real Modelers Class' where the plane is built from plans," please feel free to develop your own set of rules and hold a contest or series of contests using those rules.  The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) rule book allows for and will sanction such special contests to be held.  If you witness overwhelming support for such an event, then you can make it an official part of the AMA rulebook.  Even without a formal inclusion of such rules in the AMA rulebook, you can continue to hold your special contests for the expected few if any that will attend/support your concept.  Please note that you do NOT need to establish new rules in the AMA rule book to initiate any event you can dream up.  Start something and we all might be surprised if you have any kind of support.  These forums and even the Precision Aerobatics Model Pilots Association (PAMPA) can provide you great platforms to initiate your ideas.  Even your CLACB would take notice if you organize contests for your ideas and there is any kind of measurable support/entries.  As a parallel to this subject, the Skill Classes were encouraged and initiated as unofficial events at local contests by PAMPA.  Now, Skill Classes are a significant element of our CLPA event.

I have an interesting question regarding your "Real Modelers Class".  You state that the "modeler in this class must cut their own parts (foam or balsa)...".  So, does this exclude a "Real Modeler" from building a model from any of the several current manufacturers of CLAPA kits (Brodak and RSM to mention a few) to compete in your "Real Modelers Class"?

Keith

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2018, 02:26:04 PM »
Why not also require that they build their own bell cranks, control horns, take apart units, fuel tanks etc, etc, etc.  If you really want to get tough require that they make their own engines.  There are after all several modelers in Europe , and other places who do that!

Of course, it's going to be a very small class but in fact there is no limit to what you can limit if you really try hard!

 S?P S?P    LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Some people simply are never happy until they find something that only THEY can do, or would want to do?!

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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2018, 03:05:51 PM »
Keith is absolutely correct in his description of our current BOM rule. Many hours of writing, discussion, and arguing went into what we have today. One of the original drafts had the plane separated into 4 major parts (wing/flaps, fuselage, stab/elevator, and rudder. You were only allowed to buy 1 of the 4 major components. That proposal did not pass and had to be modified (a few times) to get what we have today. Also remember, a lot of people had been trying, unsuccessfully, to rewrite the rule to be more specific, especially after the sharks and ilk started showing up in numbers, at the US Nat's.

 To claim that what we have now is sloppy, poorly explained, or unclear is just silly. You either aren't reading clearly, or you're trying to read something that isn't there..... Tim.

Derek

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2018, 03:19:56 PM »

 To claim that what we have now is sloppy, poorly explained, or unclear is just silly. You either aren't reading clearly, or you're trying to read something that isn't there..... Tim.

Derek

EXACTLY!! 

And the rule we have today allows us as a whole to use advanced building techniques found elsewhere while still holding the true intent of the event which is to create the best all around modeler/flier. You still have to get the thing into one piece then trim it out, figure it out, then fly it.... 
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2018, 03:43:23 PM »
Keith is absolutely correct in his description of our current BOM rule. Many hours of writing, discussion, and arguing went into what we have today. One of the original drafts had the plane separated into 4 major parts (wing/flaps, fuselage, stab/elevator, and rudder. You were only allowed to buy 1 of the 4 major components. That proposal did not pass and had to be modified (a few times) to get what we have today.

   I might want to add Rule #4 - There's no need to use an A-Bomb on an anthill. For the entire time I have been involved with stunt, we have careened wildly from one "controversy" to another, almost always based on something that is a legitimate issue, but blown far out of proportion, with sometimes astronomically, almost comical (if you didn't know otherwise) overreactions. 

    Most of the "conspiracy" shenanigans were like that, for example, we turned ourselves inside out over what was histrionic claims of torment. Over 30+ years and to the point the entire event was destroyed. Most of the stuff should just have been summarily dismissed or ignored, instead, we (in good faith, for the most part) treated utter nonsense like it was sober and objective fact, and then knocked ourselves out trying to either "correct" or explain our actions.

     The BOM is another example, essentially every time it comes up it almost immediately veers into one hysterical claim after another. We have spent so much time trying to get it perfect, that we took forever to accomplish even an OK solution that works most of the time if everyone tells the truth. No one understands perfectionism better than stunt fliers, the event filters for it, but a lot of times we end up wasting a lot of time or effort to close every possible loophole that we wind up doing nothing, or coming up with solutions that are worse than the original problem, due to Rule #1.  This all to replace two words that almost everyone understood - "completely construct".

     I am pretty OK with just leaving everything alone or simplifying the current rule, and living with a few outliers here and there, they aren't signifcant.

     Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: If it walks like a duck
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2018, 03:58:34 PM »
Is it time to run screaming into the night yet....I for one am ready!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ


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