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Author Topic: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power  (Read 14263 times)

Offline RC Storick

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Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« on: June 18, 2013, 11:16:00 PM »
True but the problem is a 75 is 13 oz on the end of the stick and the eflight is 6.5. So the bulk of the concentrated weight is less for the electric. I am sure this will draw some long equation into play when all that's needed is to build one and fly it to feel the difference.

Baseline characteristics are still set in concentrated weight. But I have always said this. At Brodaks I let Joe Gilbert fly my beam-er. His exact words were scary fast turn. This is because of 6.5 oz at the far end opposed to 13. Simple to me. Now this airplane fly's with the cg 1.5 back from LE. What does this do? Great rounds and super flats,great glide and the combat turns comes from low weight. My kind of plane. All I need now is to be able to find time to fly.

Joe please chime in and give your assessment.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 06:22:54 AM by Robert Storick »
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Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 05:45:55 AM »
True but the problem is a 75 is 13 oz on the end of the stick and the eflight is 6.5. So the bulk of the concentrated weight is less for the electric. I am sure this will draw some long equation into play when all that's needed is to build one and fly it to feel the difference.

Baseline characteristics are still set in concentrated weight. But I have always said this. At Brodaks I let Joe Gilbert fly my beam-er. His exact words were scary fast turn. This is because of 6.5 oz at the far end opposed to 13. Simple to me. Now this airplane fly's with the cg 1.5 back from LE. What does this do? Great rounds and super flats,great glide and the combat turns comes from low weight. My kind of plane. All I need now is to be able to find time to fly.

Joe please chime in and give your assessment.

I don't need to barrage you with equations to tell you the above is silly.  Fitzgerald's plane has the 75 in it and has plenty enough corner to win the Nats.  That should be all the corner ever needed.
Steve

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2013, 06:00:41 AM »
I don't need to barrage you with equations to tell you the above is silly.  Fitzgerald's plane has the 75 in it and has plenty enough corner to win the Nats.  That should be all the corner ever needed.


Sure it can win. Its the guy wiggling the handle. I can not have a opinion on how a airplane flies?
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Eric Viglione

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 06:17:02 AM »
Actually Sparky, by your logic, the 75 has much less mass forward, because the 75 is much longer than an electric motor. The whole electric motor mass is right up against the back of the prop mount, whereas the 75 just has the thrust washer, small front bearing, shaft, up there, then the bulk of the engine weight of the 75 is a few inches back... and then you are running those heavy fiberglass prop's...
 S?P S?P

Oh yeah... and what Fitton said! Enough corner is enough, otherwise we'd all fly something more akin to Combat ships if corner was everything. It's a package deal,  very ying yang, all about give and take.

I know Brett laughs about the analogy of PW beating everyone with Ringmasters... and true enough, it's fun to joke about, but bring on the Ringmasters! heh... But... This is a subjective staged performance event. Perhaps the better analogy is to take a first year  music student on a Stradivarius, and put them up against Joshua Bell on the students violin... my guess is that Josh would kick the Stradivarius players backside.

After reading your most recent post, I guess you already know the answer to your problem at Brodaks. It wasn't your package. You weren't prepared and didn't have the 5% with you. Just like the other millions of things that could go wrong with being un-prepared with a 4-stroke, muffled 2 stroke, or forgetting your good contest batteries at home for E-power and only bringing your high used practice packs that shut down due to lack of amperage around the clover... (yeah, I've seen those...)

Hang in there Sparky, don't fret, this is a good thread, some good stuff has come out here. You're opinion has a lot of value, and we find it fascinating enough to want to tear it down to its basic elements because it makes us think, and that can't be a bad thing. Otherwise what are forums for? Don't take it too personal when you bring up a subject and it takes a life of its own. It's just us, being us! I don't post hardly as much as many here do, but I do follow and enjoy reading the various threads, even the fur balls.

Thanks for the great forum to have these discussions!
EricV

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 06:47:47 AM »

Sure it can win. Its the guy wiggling the handle. I can not have a opinion on how a airplane flies?


Brett was just debunking this mindset in another thread.  Those guys win because part of their talent is building and trimming, not just practice or some Superman skills on the handle.
Steve

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 06:53:41 AM »
Probably neither here or there but I always make my tanks 1/2-3/4 ounce oversize.  Then I fill with the pump and pull out what I need to with a syringe to suit.  Don't need to change fuel or anything else other than maybe a needle tweak for temperature.

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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2013, 08:02:34 AM »
This is funny. Is 13 oz lighter then 6.5? NOPE! And its all the way up front. True the battery weighs more than fuel but its shoved back. So concentrated wight is much more on the IC at the farthest from the CG. Pie are Round corn bread are square.
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2013, 09:52:57 AM »
and all of Randy's planes have 11 to 12 ounce engines up front with a very hard corner, Paul Walker's Impacts had mainly 11 to 12 ounce engines up front and had a very hard corner.
Derek Barry's Staris had a 10.5 ounce engine up front and had a blinding corner ,Bill Rich... Fitzgerald has a hard corner with 12.5 ounce engine up front.  yada yada yada ..etc  I can go on forever
Using E power  will NOT  give you an advantage in corner , you can make either turn as hard as you want. All of the weight in front of the CG (no matter where it is) needs to be taken into account, and balanced with the tail moment-stab-elevator size and effectiveness   ......... My opinion !  yours may vary


Randy

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2013, 10:17:49 AM »
Like I said above all I had was 10%. I knew what to do I just didn't have the fuel.


Yes I do know you knew this, You have many many years of experience flying and some times you can get caught without something you need, it happens to all of us, but this is more about posting info on the public forum for the many who may not know how to do this. Also if I were in that situation I may have thought about borrowing or buying some lower nitro fuel. Or using about an ounce of Acetone in 1 gallon of my 10% fuel. this will give you a longer run time. If , like some people who refuse to use anything but one fuel all year long and will NOT change no matter what, then I would suggest carrying a set of head shims, or a quick change venturie set.

Randy

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2013, 01:11:21 PM »
This is funny. Is 13 oz lighter then 6.5? NOPE! And its all the way up front. True the battery weighs more than fuel but its shoved back. So concentrated wight is much more on the IC at the farthest from the CG. Pie are Round corn bread are square.

One cool thing about this sport is that you can fly whatever you want: you don't have to get a boss's approval and justify your analysis to him. 
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2013, 05:34:38 PM »
This is funny. Is 13 oz lighter then 6.5? NOPE! And its all the way up front. True the battery weighs more than fuel but its shoved back. So concentrated wight is much more on the IC at the farthest from the CG. Pie are Round corn bread are square.
   Well, I like my corn bread baked in a muffin pan, so my corn bread are round! y1 LL~
   You still have to open your mind to a couple of questions, that was covered before in a thread about the forward CG of some current (no pun intended) electric models. The battery weight combined with your motor weight, along with speed controller, timer, wire and such, weigh the same or more that your engine. The 6.5 ounce motor is right out on the end of the stick, but the center of mass of your 13 ounce IC power plant isn't. It's center of mass is maybe 2 inches closer to the balance point, and the total weight in relation to the over all balance of the model is negated a bit, how much Brett or Howard could tell you. Think back to the days of prop extensions to move the engine back to help aleviate nose heaviness, and we're only talking 1/2 to 3/4 inches there. To get your forward balance point, you have to move the available ballast (the battery) foward, correct? So that puts it's total mass closer to your 6.5 ounce motor on the nose and I think adds to the total effect. You just can't think of the motor weight lone. Getting back to the I/C power plant, It's fuel tank holds anywhere, typically, between 4 to 8 ounces of fuel. I think the last time I measured the weight of 4 ounces of fuel, it came out to a bit more than 3 ounces. For your .75, if you fill the tank, you added about 6 ounces of weight, but again, that weight is closer to the balance point of the airplane, so it doesn't have the same affect as the 6.5 ounces at the nose, and it gets lighter as soon as the engine fires. Think of the ballance weight on the scales that they  weigh you on at the doctor. I don't think the fuel load burning off as the flight proceeds has an effect that most of us can see or feel as the balance point shifts during flight and I am curious to know approximately how much it moves in flight. With an electric set up, you do have the consistant balance point through out the flight, but how much of an advavtage that is, I don't know. Again, these are just questions I have about the big picture of each set up as I see it when I think about the situation.
    Here's one more to think about. Could a four stroke have an advantage in this foward C/G, turning issue? The engines can be heavy, but they don't use much fuel, so you use a shorter tank, along with a shorter nose moment, to get that accumualated weight closer to the desired balance point. The tank is still pretty close to the balance point, and if you are using half the fuel load of a two stroke engine, which is possible, you have that condition to factor in, and again, it gets lighter as the flight progresses. It all comes down to design theory, and how you put the theory into practice and how you execute the theory. Nose moments have been changing in design since the event was invented, and probably will never stop and long as somebody is looking for that "something better."  I'm just a welder/fabricator/printing press mechanic, and deal with things that are in three dimensions right in front of me at work. This really isn't much different, from my stand point, when you look at the total picture. I have said it before, a stunt model really is the sum of it's parts, and there isn't one part or component that will make it superior to all the others. It takes a total package.
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2013, 05:39:06 PM »
Dan you have to look at it close. The weights are about the same with my setup as a plane with a IC. But its spread out and not concentrated in one spot farthest from the CG. Whats not to understand?
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2013, 06:24:20 PM »
I agree with Robert here, concentrating the mass around the CG gives far more design flexibility and 'should' result in eventually a better model.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2013, 06:26:44 PM »
Dan you have to look at it close. The weights are about the same with my setup as a plane with a IC. But its spread out and not concentrated in one spot farthest from the CG. Whats not to understand?

How moment of inertia works.  
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2013, 08:42:34 PM »
Dan you have to look at it close. The weights are about the same with my setup as a plane with a IC. But its spread out and not concentrated in one spot farthest from the CG. Whats not to understand?
     But I am looking at it close! I've got my nose right up to the screen!

     Again, I'm not argueing, just asking the question. I know that a 6.5 ounce motor weighes more than a 13 ounce engine. But they are not at the same point of the "stick." I wouldn't be asking the question if the PA.75 was as far forward as the Axi electric motor, and it's not. As I said, the PA.75 center of mass, or it's concentration of weight, is almost 2 inches further back. Maybe I should relate it as "accumulated weight" instead of "concentrated weight."  To me, you can't take the weight of the battery, speed controller, timer, wire, and the extra lead you put in the nose completely out of the picture. At some point between the back end of the battery, and the prop shaft of the motor, there has to be a place where all that weight averages out against the lever that is the length of the fuselage that is behind the balance point. Think of it as a 4" thick by 3 foot by three foot slab of concete that weighs 200 pounds, and it's sitting flat on the seat of a see saw. That weight is spread out over that three foot square area, but it still weighs 200 pounds. It will take a certain amount of force on the other seat to lift it. Now take it and stand it on one edge on the same seat. I understand that the weight is concentrated in one smaller point on the seat of the see saw, but still weighs 200 pounds. Should it not take the same amount of force to lift it? If it takes more, is it a significant difference, or a barely noticeable one? The total weight of the electric set up as some have been using it probably weighs as much as 14 to 18 ounces or more including additional lead ballast. Yes, that is spread out, but it is still dead weight that weighs 14 to 18 ounces. And the weight of an engine and fuel tank is spread out also. And as has been mentioned in previous threads, some electric users are doing everything they can to get the balance point forward significantly, which translates to adding weight. The laws of moment of inertia and math may allow you to split the hair pretty fine. But again, my question is, how can you discount the additional, significant amounts of weight that is in front of the balance point at approximately the same distance from the balance point as an engine, in explaining the advantage that you think you are getting in turning a corner from using an electric set up?
     I'll add this little tid bit also that I have been wondering about, propellers.  Up to this point, I/C set ups have been using heavy, stiff carbon fibre props to hold accurate pitch, and withstand the constant pounding from the combustion cycles. I think pretty much everyone flying electric is using some sort of APC electric prop. Looking at these and holding them in your hand, they are genuine Flexible Flyers compared to a Bolly or the carbon prop of your choice of the same diameter. How much does this affect the flight of the airplane through the corner? It is attached to a power plant of similar power output as an engine, and attached to a model of similar size, weight and drag. I'm thinking that something has to be happening up front?? I mean, we know the old white Top Flite props flexed under load, so we know that happens, correct?
    Again, I just be askin'!
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2013, 10:44:40 PM »
  Again, then run an IC motor with a  timer, put in 1/2 ounce more fuel than you might ever need, then, no advantage. It will still weigh less than the battery.

    Brett

 Yes, that is certainly an option, but as we all know the risk an overrun increases if it happens to go a little lean or something during the flight. Obviously IC fuel loads can be measured, but not to the exact second of desired engine stoppage.

 I'm honestly not trying to start the umpteenth debate here. All I'm saying is that the electric quits at the same time, every time, without any of these IC risks.

 As it is, this is unfair to IC competitors who would be penalized for an overrun against a timed electric model. Just my opinion.
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2013, 11:13:08 PM »
Yes, that is certainly an option, but as we all know the risk an overrun increases if it happens to go a little lean or something during the flight. Obviously IC fuel loads can be measured, but not to the exact second of desired engine stoppage.

 I'm honestly not trying to start the umpteenth debate here. All I'm saying is that the electric quits at the same time, every time, without any of these IC risks.

 As it is, this is unfair to IC competitors who would be penalized for an overrun against a timed electric model. Just my opinion.

UHhhhhhhh...I think you missed something here.  Brett said RUN a TIMER...you know one of those things that shuts off the fuel supply.  They're legal and available now.  Work off of a tiny little battery and very small servo.  Less than an ounce of extra weight.
Shut off at the same time every time!!!
I saw a couple being used here in Tucson over a year ago!  Worked very well.
I think Bob Whitely had one in his Blackbird that he used at the last team trials.
Personally I think it's a very minor problem and very reliable to measure fuel and keep the fuel system clean and set the needle properly.

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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2013, 12:31:30 PM »
        Again, I just be askin'!
    Type at you later,
    Dan Center


OK I will tr y to illustrate this here

X represents motor/engine and Y is fuel/battery * is balance point

IC  X--*----Y--->  and electric would be X-------*Y--> now this is a basic concept not meant to be to scale but give a idea of Just the nose weight distribution -> representing the LE. I hope this explains it. Meaning the total wright although the same is closer to the LE with electric. Equate it to two kids and a small child on a seesaw. one at 130 LBS and one at 80LBS the small kid has to weigh at least 50LBS to balance it. Now remove the 130 pound kid and replace with a 65 pound kid leaving the 80 pounder on and the 50 pounder to change postion until it balances. This is a representation of what is going on with the electric setup in just the nose.

Now on my new plane the nose is 11.5 inches long but only 6.5 oz is out there. I am not trying to sell anyone on electric, but it has its advantages and I can see them clearly where I could only guess from the side lines.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 12:59:05 PM by Robert Storick »
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2013, 12:43:32 PM »

OK I will tr y to illustrate this here

X represents motor/engine and Y is fuel/battery * is balance point


I will echo a comment by Howard about understanding how Moment of Inertia works.  Moment of Inertia of a given mass is a function of its weight and the square of its distance from the CG.  So, a greater mass a shorter distance from the CG might be better than a lighter mass further from the CG, depending on the parameters.  Less Moment of Inertia means that a smaller force is required to initiate a rotation around the CG and a smaller force is needed to stop that rotation.  Sort of an important factor when trying to emulate a square turn on our hemisphere.  The 4-stroke guys started to find out about this when they went to their heavier engines and shorter noses but were getting clean sharp corners.

Something that Bob Gialdini wrote about in his Olympic article in 1962.

Keith

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2013, 12:46:01 PM »
I will echo a comment by Howard about understanding how Moment of Inertia works.  Moment of Inertia of a given mass is a function of its weight and the square of its distance from the CG.  So, a greater mass a shorter distance from the CG might be better than a lighter mass further from the CG, depending on the parameters.  Less Moment of Inertia means that a smaller force is required to initiate a rotation around the CG and a smaller force is needed to stop that rotation.  Sort of an important factor when trying to emulate a square turn on our hemisphere.

Something that Bob Gialdini wrote about in his Olympic article in 1962.

Keith

So your saying (I think just the opposite of what I am experiencing) It would be better to have a heavy engine shorter nose than a lighter engine longer nose? Or am I understanding this wrong? Cause to be honest I didn't think it would work but it does.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2013, 12:48:22 PM »
     But I am looking at it close! I've got my nose right up to the screen!

     Again, I'm not argueing, just asking the question. I know that a 6.5 ounce motor weighes more than a 13 ounce engine. But they are not at the same point of the "stick." I wouldn't be asking the question if the PA.75 was as far forward as the Axi electric motor, and it's not. As I said, the PA.75 center of mass, or it's concentration of weight, is almost 2 inches further back. Maybe I should relate it as "accumulated weight" instead of "concentrated weight."  To me, you can't take the weight of the battery, speed controller, timer, wire, and the extra lead you put in the nose completely out of the picture. At some point between the back end of the battery, and the prop shaft of the motor, there has to be a place where all that weight averages out against the lever that is the length of the fuselage that is behind the balance point. Think of it as a 4" thick by 3 foot by three foot slab of concete that weighs 200 pounds, and it's sitting flat on the seat of a see saw. That weight is spread out over that three foot square area, but it still weighs 200 pounds. It will take a certain amount of force on the other seat to lift it. Now take it and stand it on one edge on the same seat. I understand that the weight is concentrated in one smaller point on the seat of the see saw, but still weighs 200 pounds. Should it not take the same amount of force to lift it? If it takes more, is it a significant difference, or a barely noticeable one? The total weight of the electric set up as some have been using it probably weighs as much as 14 to 18 ounces or more including additional lead ballast. Yes, that is spread out, but it is still dead weight that weighs 14 to 18 ounces. And the weight of an engine and fuel tank is spread out also. And as has been mentioned in previous threads, some electric users are doing everything they can to get the balance point forward significantly, which translates to adding weight. The laws of moment of inertia and math may allow you to split the hair pretty fine. But again, my question is, how can you discount the additional, significant amounts of weight that is in front of the balance point at approximately the same distance from the balance point as an engine, in explaining the advantage that you think you are getting in turning a corner from using an electric set up?
     I'll add this little tid bit also that I have been wondering about, propellers.  Up to this point, I/C set ups have been using heavy, stiff carbon fibre props to hold accurate pitch, and withstand the constant pounding from the combustion cycles. I think pretty much everyone flying electric is using some sort of APC electric prop. Looking at these and holding them in your hand, they are genuine Flexible Flyers compared to a Bolly or the carbon prop of your choice of the same diameter. How much does this affect the flight of the airplane through the corner? It is attached to a power plant of similar power output as an engine, and attached to a model of similar size, weight and drag. I'm thinking that something has to be happening up front?? I mean, we know the old white Top Flite props flexed under load, so we know that happens, correct?
    Again, I just be askin'!
    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

To answer the prop question, yes the APC props are flexing in the corners, I can hear it and see it. The electric guys tell me that it does not matter...

I understand that Paul is using a carbon fiber prop now...

I also have read and heard a lot of the Electric guys say that they are having to make the noses of their planes longer and have to run more nose weight than they did with IC to make them balance and fly correctly. I am sure that this is a direct result of the battery being so far back in the fuse. It seems to me that more weight near the CG is just that "more weight". It will not help you balance the plane, hence the extra nose weight.

None of this is intended to be mean, its just my observations.

Derek

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2013, 12:54:09 PM »
I too have switched to CF APC copy prop. I also know this if the nose was not longer it would need nose weight. Because I static balanced it in the normal postion on the first plane and it was UN flyable. That's why on the second one the nose is 1.5 longer and could have been .25 more and not hurt anything. At that given weight. I hope they come out with a 6 ounce battery.

First plane If I could have built it lighter it would have been ok. I am using the 3300 MAH batteries as others are using 4000 Plus on same plane. At least 2 oz more per battery size in Hyperions.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2013, 12:59:30 PM »
Another observation since I am talking about it: I noticed that when I flew Hunt's plane that I had to dig in more in the corner. (or give more input for a longer time). I could feel the plane pulling through the corner and there was little or no hesitation after the corner. Bob said that this has to do with the number of cycles per second in relation to glow power. Thinking about the feel in my head over and over again, I can agree with Bob on this. The IC engines have more of a stop and turn feel to me (which I like) but the feel of the electric was interesting too. I think that someone can learn to fly either setup competitively (obviously) so to say one is better than the other is kind of a moot statement. They both have plusses and minuses in my opinion. I can see why people are drawn to electric but if you ever fly a PA 65 you will be drawn to it too.  To me, the PA 65 is the best stunt engine ever designed. I have flown all the PAs, a couple RoJetts, and now a top 5 electric and I stand behind my statement about the 65.

Derek

Bob, if you are reading I know that you said the Crossfire is a much better plane than the one I flew so I still am looking forward to flying yours after the Nats.

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2013, 01:01:20 PM »
I too have switched to CF APC copy prop. I also know this if the nose was not longer it would need nose weight. Because I static balanced it in the normal postion on the first plane and it was UN flyable. That's why on the second one the nose is 1.5 longer and could have been .25 more and not hurt anything. At that given weight. I hope they come out with a 6 ounce battery.

Sounds like you are experiencing the same thing as everyone else. I assume you have the battery as far forward as possible?

Derek

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2013, 01:05:20 PM »
Sounds like you are experiencing the same thing as everyone else. I assume you have the battery as far forward as possible?

Derek

I do now. But also remember my battery is 2 oz lighter than the battery in Bobs Crossfire.
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2013, 01:12:48 PM »
So your saying (I think just the opposite of what I am experiencing) It would be better to have a heavy engine shorter nose than a lighter engine longer nose? Or am I understanding this wrong? Cause to be honest I didn't think it would work but it does.

Robert,

I think I tried to explain, it sort of depends on the various parameters involved.  A given engine (or power package - however it is configured) mounted closer to the CG might give a smaller Moment of Inertia which is good when trying to turn a square corner.  But if that power package weighs more (or a lot more), then wing loading becomes a factor regarding how well the model will turn.  There are a lot of tradeoffs with this stuff.  A heavy power package on a short nose, even with a comparatively desirable Moment of Inertia may not have any advantage over a lighter weight configuration with a comparatively desirable wing loading.  A comparatively heavier wing loading come be offset to "some" degree by a good power package tailored to the design, but there is a limit to how well a heavier airplane will perform.  In other words, a light wing loading is good, but we already know that.  So, lighter weight and smaller Moments of Inertial are good.


As I mentioned before, the 4-stroke guys found good corners with their heavier motors on shorter nose moments.  The power curves of the 4-strokes are also a factor.  But their wing loadings were/are still within some tolerable range for good turning performance.

Keith

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 01:14:04 PM »
I do now. But also remember my battery is 2 oz lighter than the battery in Bobs Crossfire.

Didn't know that, I know very little about the electric setups. Just what I read here and have seen for myself. I guess they don't make one that is 1 oz. heavier? LOL. If they did it would probably be perfect.

Derek

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2013, 01:33:04 PM »
I also have read and heard a lot of the Electric guys say that they are having to make the noses of their planes longer and have to run more nose weight than they did with IC to make them balance and fly correctly. I am sure that this is a direct result of the battery being so far back in the fuse. It seems to me that more weight near the CG is just that "more weight". It will not help you balance the plane, hence the extra nose weight.

It's that electric airplanes fly better with the CG farther forward than at the CG at which IC planes fly best.  Yes, we included fuel.  The APC prop is more efficient than most, so it takes less battery.  I was figuring on the same CG as my IC plane and a hefty battery.  I ended up with the smaller battery crammed as far forward as possible and a bunch of ballast in the nose.  It has a low moment of inertia, but I'd sooner have a longer nose and a lighter plane. 

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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2013, 01:59:06 PM »
It's that electric airplanes fly better with the CG farther forward than at the CG at which IC planes fly best.  Yes, we included fuel.  The APC prop is more efficient than most, so it takes less battery.  I was figuring on the same CG as my IC plane and a hefty battery.  I ended up with the smaller battery crammed as far forward as possible and a bunch of ballast in the nose.  It has a low moment of inertia, but I'd sooner have a longer nose and a lighter plane. 



What is really strange to me is when I fly IC I cannot feel any noticeable change in trim as I burn the fuel and when I flew electric I didn't notice that the trim didn't change through the flight. If that makes sense. I guess because in both cases the weight is pretty far from the nose so it has little affect on the trim. I can feel a fraction of an oz. in the spinner.

Derek

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2013, 03:51:32 PM »
Robert,

As I mentioned before, the 4-stroke guys found good corners with their heavier motors on shorter nose moments.  The power curves of the 4-strokes are also a factor.  But their wing loadings were/are still within some tolerable range for good turning performance.

Keith

It's actually even stranger than that, I flew the TwistMaster from Intermediate to the middle of advanced with a Saito 40 that balanced at the wing leading edge. According to conventional wisdom it should have been a dog, way forward CG and heavy engine far out on the nose but it would turn.

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2013, 04:08:18 PM »
What is really strange to me is when I fly IC I cannot feel any noticeable change in trim as I burn the fuel and when I flew electric I didn't notice that the trim didn't change through the flight. If that makes sense. I guess because in both cases the weight is pretty far from the nose so it has little affect on the trim. I can feel a fraction of an oz. in the spinner.

Derek

Leave out the squares and you will feel that the cg isn't right in the triangles.   HB~>
Steve

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2013, 07:59:59 PM »
 
   "Now on my new plane the nose is 11.5 inches long but only 6.5 oz is out there. I am not trying to sell anyone on electric, but it has its advantages and I can see them clearly where I could only guess from the side lines."

      Now remember, I'm just asking questions in thinking about the situation. I'm not knocking the electric systems. In fact, I have an electric back ground in model airplanes. In my sailplane days, the club I belonged to hosted the second ever FAI Electric World Championships in 1988 over at Parks College in Cahokia, IL. I flew electric powered sailplanes in competition. It's mind boggleling when I think back at what was new and cutting edge back then and what we have available to us now!
      Now, getting back to the teeter-totters and such. Some would think I'm over complicating this, but I'm thinking in terms of what goes in the airplane. You seem fixated on that 6.5 ounces of motor out on the end of the stick, and disregard everything else. I'm thinking that ALL of the hardware involved that is in the airplane and goes in the air, has to be factored in, or averaged. I used the term "accumulated weight" before. You say it is spread out, which is true, but it is still all the components are in close proximity to each other by necessity and convenience, and I'm guessing that the the combined weights should average out to a specific point where your "moment of inertia" is. Or can you look at it this way. You have your 6.5 ounces of motor in the nose, and the 11.5 inches moment, and you have your battery which weighs 12 ounces.let's say. Do you have two separate moments of inertia to calculate? And in taking into consideration what Mr. Trostle added to the conversation, with a shorter nose and an engine, you just have the one , main component in the mix, and the lighter fuel load is behind that and closer to the balance point and it changes as the flight progresses.  The whole point of my question is, you can't just look at the motor alone and part of your moment of inertia, can you? The other stuff that is in close proximity has to have some effect. The I/C set up is the opposite, but isn't as bad in my opinion. My ST.51 weighs 12 ounces and the tank with a typical fuel load of 4.5 ounces that weighs about 4 ounces is right behind it and the tank empties through out the flight. The nose of the airplane is only 9.5 or 10 inches long. Which has less moment of inertia? I don't know the math to figure that out. When the flight path of the airplane changes 90 degrees in a square turn, does the 11.5" long nose have farther to travel than the 9.5" long nose? Does this have an effect on the turn especially when you factor in the gyro effect of the prop?I do know that there is more to the picture on what makes an airplane turn. Again, I am not knocking the electric set up because it has been proven to work successfully, I just get caught up thinking about the job at hand, and how it is executed. If I can figure out and understand something that may help me with the next airplane I get to build (if I ever GET to build another airplane!) it's worth asking the question, no matter how goofy the question sounds. I have been settling in on the shorter nose moment line of thought, just taking into account my own experiences with my models and a few others that I got to fly. But how short is too short, and how long is too long? The nose lengths on C/L stunt models have been moving in and out over the years like it was Pinnochio's nose as different desgn trends come and go and as power plants have changed and been adapted. The page on stunt history has been turned with the improvements in the electric systems, and I wonder just how much more change to airframes might some designers make as the process moves forward/ Will a higher aspect ratio wing work a little better with this mysterious excessive forward CG that some are experiencing, or will it go the other way with much lower aspect ratios?  I still think that a stunt model is the sum of it's parts and a guy just has to figure out what works best for him. I think the electric systems will "settle in" with those that can make best use of the technology and understand it. I don't think it will over take and drive I/C systems into extinction.  After all the years that pipe systems dominated upper lever competition, did we ever dare to think that the old venerable ST.60 would reign again as World Champion? It did and it might again some day in the right model and in the right hands.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2013, 08:47:18 PM »
I don't know the math to figure that out.

I handed it to you.  I even did it for you.  Here is the reference and calculator once again: http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=30303.msg300702#msg300702 This assumes that you have Excel, but doesn't most everybody these days? 

Moment from gyroscopic precession is independent of the length of the nose.  
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2013, 11:12:41 PM »
I agree with Robert here, concentrating the mass around the CG gives far more design flexibility and 'should' result in eventually a better model.


Never thought of that!  Sure, just move the Battery back beneath the Bellcrank where the CG is located! 

Damn!   Just tried that and now the CG isn't at the BC mount anymore.  Is that OK?  Should I fly it anyway?  Will it fly better now?  What'd I do wrong????

Ted


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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2013, 11:42:55 PM »
Never thought of that!  Sure, just move the Battery back beneath the Bellcrank where the CG is located!  

Damn!   Just tried that and now the CG isn't at the BC mount anymore.  Is that OK?  Should I fly it anyway?  Will it fly better now?  What'd I do wrong????

Ted

Nah just add 10 ounces to the belly. LL~ According to the Netizban writings the bell crank should be behind the CG anyway. But is dont matter as everyone has said in the past anyway.

Control-Line Aerodynamics Made Painless
By Bill Netzeband
Originally published in 'American Modeler', July/August 1966.

Crewcut Bill goes long-hair! And he has conspirators, many of the nation's leading designers.
Line rake angle is an all-important factor, they agree.
-----oooOooo-----


Since the beginning of control-line models, back in the 40's, the design phase, viewed from published information, has been a "black art" relying on phases of the moon, superstition, etc. "Designers" appeared to ignore, or misunderstand, the unique effects of flying in circles tied to a pilot in the center.
We were told to balance the model on front leadout; or balance it on the belicrank pivot; or to balance one thumb-print forward of the main spar, or any other such nonsense that popped into a designer's head. All we really knew was that his model balanced there and he liked it! Always they were half right - and half wrong.

Actually, we lived by the "Flea Fright" practice of adjusting each ship to tailor out the kinks, ii it survived the first flight! Ultimately, we were subjected to a lot of marginal designs (mine, too) flown by talented pilots who took it upon themselves to explain phenomena they didn't understand. Luckily, we do not wipe out pilots during crashes.

Back in 1951 I started serious investigation into miniature aerodynamics. It is simply a matter of applying classic aerodynamics to our size whenever we could. The principles, happily enough, apply directly; the problems are in the constants. Guess and test methods were used to back-up mathematical correction of lift, drag and lnertia factors, finally coming up with "numbers" useful to our size airplanes. One slight point irks me. Only a scale model of a man-carrying airplane qualifies for the name "model." If we design an airplane for a specific performance criterion, then it's an airplane, no matter how small!

In future issue we'll present a generous portion of concentrated CL aerodynamics; concentrated meaning, any mathematical procedure will be explained in English and useful equations will be reduced to simple nomographs We will be shooting for those of you Interested in knowing Why and How, but who have not elected to follow a career in engineering or science. We assume that Math and Aero majors will be reading very critically looking for mistakes!

Basic Physical Facts: This installment covers a phenomenon not recognized in any other branch of science, at least not in books I've been able to read. So we had to develop our solution. We tie our airplane to a handle, pick up that handle and stand there while the airplane zooms around us. The physical reactions caused by moving a body (object) in a hemispherical plane, supported by thin flexible lines; with motive power applied at the object, are unique to CL airplanes.


 
Roger Wudman with his Invader, one of several aerobatic aircraft used to check out calculations.
Weighs 60 ozs., Mccoy .40, 600 squares, 48 mph.

Flying above the handle introduces forces not covered in classic aerodynamic work, and the effects of the lines themselves are interesting. Our phenomenon is the curve that appears in the lines: How do we measure it accurately, its effect on the airplane, and what do we do in the design of the airplane to achieve the best performance? Where should the line-guide be located?

Since Isaac Newton discovered that an object pulled by a force tends to move in a straight line, we must apply another force to make that object move in a circle. This is called Centripetal Force, which you apply at the handle. There then exists an equal and opposite force to balance it called Centrifugal Force. (EQ 1) These two keep the circle round because, if imbalanced, like a broken line, the object heads back toward its straight line. The amount of centripetal force is determined by the weight of the airplane, the angular rate at which it moves around the circle, and the length of the lines. For our purposes we convert angular velocity to tangential velocity and call this the airplane speed (V) generally in miles per hour (mph).


 
By convention, we make lines to a length which will give standard distance from handle to airplane centerline. The center of gravity (CG) of the airplane is very close to centerline, so we now state that airplane speed (V) is that of CG. To simplify matters let's assume the Thrust of the prop passes through the CG. This done we could throw away the airplane and use a dimensionless lump, same weight, at the CG. If it were possible to mount the bellcrank pivot exactly on the CG and the load of each line didn't change (it does) we could fly without a line guide.

Since precise location is not practical, we add some form of line support between the belicrank and the handle. After adding the line-guide one problem is solved, another created. For years we were fooled into believing that the position of the bellcrank in the airplane controlled its attitude. Not so. The beilcrank can be almost anywhere in the airplane.

A simple cardboard outline of an airplane will show this relation (photograph in continued portion) (See note). Place an eye (U-shaped bent pin) in one wing tip and tie a pin on the end of a thread. Run the thread through the eye and stick a pin anywhere in the cardboard. Observe how the thing hangs and then move the pin (string end) to some other location. Right! Anywhere you stick that pin the airplane hangs the same. Now move the eye (line-guide). The airplane assumes some new position. The CO of the airplane will line up with the linc-guide. (Note: It would be nice to mount the bellcrank on a line between the CG and the line-guide, because the control lines could lead straight through the line-guide, therefore operating with the least stiffness.)


 
Crux of the matter. Behind the charts stands years of flight testing.

We must qualify the above facts by stating that the line must be very flexible compared to the weight of the airplane. A perfectly flexible wire can carry no side load without bending. Misplaced bellcrank side load is reacted inside the airplane, not appear as an aerodynamic force. Notice that this effect is factual for the fore-and-aft. and also the vertical position of. the CG. Were you to use say 1/16-in. diameter leadouts on a ½ A ship, running them beyond the line guide 4 or 5% of the total line length, and then placing the belicrank at a kooky position, you have established an exception. All practical cases so far.

The next problem is line ahape. Closest parallel in engineering mechanics is the Catenary, a curved line between two points similar to a slack flexible oord hanging between two poles. This cord is assumed to be carrying only its own weight (uniformly distributed load) and it hangs in a mathematically predictable shape. The point of maximum deflection from a straight line between the support points is in the exact center of the wire. The deflection is inversely proportional to the tension in the line (more tension, smaller deflection), and directly proportional to the weight of the lines. You can demonstrate this one with a piece of control line, so we'll not describe the experiment. It will prove that in horizontal flight your lines will droop from gravity causing a slight vertical angle leading into the airplane CG. For most airplanes "going around flat and fast" this angle is too small to measure.

To determine line shape in the horizontal plane (top view), we resort to forces shown in Fig. 1. Here the load on the line is not uniformly distributed. load is caused by aerodynamic drag which is proportional to a constant times velocity squared. The velocity of the wire is assumed to be zero at the handle end (as in a pylon) and increases directly proportional to the distance away from the handle finally reaching airplane speed (V). Therefore, each little piece of line travels at a different velocity. This dictates the process of mathematical summation to find line drag. (More later.) To move this force system we apply thrust (T) to the CG. T being just enough to carry the effective line drag (DL). To establish equilibrium in the system we need a thrust at the handle (TH). Surprised? Fact is, without a pylon, whipping is a way of life (Say it isn't so!- Ed.) At a later time we'll show how to whip best. But back to the lines.

It is conventional in vector analysis to resolve a vector (a force with a definite magnitude and direction) into two vectors 90 degrees apart, or vice vesa. Thus, vector force FA (line tension) is the combined result of T and CF. It has an angular relationship to both, but we're interested in its angular relation to the line of action for CF. This is (&omega) Eq. 2. Likewise angle (&beta) Eq. 3 is related to FH, TH and Centripetal Force (not shown). Once we know (&omega) we know where to place the line guide! The development of an exact equation for (&omega) was a laborious chore, We'll not cover every detail, but a brief history should be enlightening.

Math Solution Development: Progress started in response to my published force diagram inside the airplane during the March/April 1963 CLC column in this magazine. Basically, it referred a portion of the line drag (DL) equal to (T) applied to the line-guide. This may not be 100% valid, since the lines slide through holes, but wear on the back of such holes proves some force exists. Right or wrong, we then searched out a coupling force to keep the airplane from turning into the circle. The reacting couple turned out to be CF and Centripetal force if the CG were moved forward in space to develop an arm between them. The resultant angle turned out to be exactly the amount as (&omega) from the last paragraph.

When the bellcrank center is exactly on the CG, and if thrust is exactly through the CG the force at the line guide will disappear, if (&omega) is correct. It should be reemphasined that bellcrank pivot should be close to the CG, to reduce the bending at the line-guide which can cause stiff controls. At the time we didn't have a reliable drag coefficient for the lines, so progress ceased. Receipt of math from Rex Powell and Charles Kiabunde provided an equation for line shape and angles (&omega) and (&beta) Eq. 4. They had some trouble agreeing on drag coefficient (Cd), otherwise complete agreement existed. Their work disclosed that with proper manipulation and substitution (&omega) was indeed proportional to the ratio of DL to CF. Also they proved the centroid of line drag was at a point three-quarters of the distance out from the handle. Thus airplane thrust is three times handle thrust. It was further shown that since both DL and CF are proportional to V squared, the system angles should be independent of velocity. This turns up frequently in our aerodynamics and, when estimating, we take advantage of it. However, Mom Nature wasn't so kind as all that there. (Figures - Ed.) Enter the villain in this piece, Mr. Reynold's marvelous number.

Osborne Reynolds was first to discover, understand and define the effects of object size, shape, speed of flow and viscosity of medium. Crudely put, he found that if two objects have the same shape but different size they will not have the same drag coefficient (or lift coefficient), unless speeds of flow and viscosity are varied to make their Reynolds numbers equal. (Eq. 5) is a simplified version of this with the viscosity held constant for air under NACA standard conditions of pressure and temperature.

When this is done, R becomes proportional to V and "some dimension defining length in the direction of flow." This dimension in our case is (d) the dia. of our lines in inches. Our lines are the same diameter from handle to airplane, the same shape, and air viscosity is constant, but (V) varies. So we can't completely ignore velocity because Cd does not remain constant from handle to airplane.

Reverting to experimental data, by old timers, it was found that, over our range of interest in R, Cd wandered from 2.4 or higher , to around 0.98. Three ditferent people ran experiments that appeared to agree well enough to believe. Unfortunately, the variation wouldn't nicely convert to an equation so we could plug it in. We were held for the moment to saying "Let's use CD = 1." This gave a fairly reasonable number considering we were looking at thin, dirty, vibrating lines. But there was more to come.

Ed Fort sent along a complete line drag equation using an approximate equation for Cd as estimated by F Eisner (Eq. 6). By substituting for R in terms of V and d, and solving a definite integral he allowed as how total line drag was per Eq. 7. One glitch in this Cd, it continued decreasing where experimental data proved an increase occured. This would cause error in large lines and high-speed airplanes like C-speed ships. But it was the best yet.

We made a nomograph of this one, congratulating ourselves and all concerned. Meanwhile Pete Soule confirmed Rex's and Charles' work tying in nicely with my stuff and picking Cd = 1. (We were going to publish the results but job changes, flres etc. short-stopped that.) We tried it out on several models with reasonable experimental results. (It was close!)

Pete Soule showed up one evening with a solution giving "effective line drag" based on thrust horsepower used to pull a portion of the lines (Eq. 8). He had also resolved the Cd problem by finding an "effective drag coefficient" based upon the Reynolds number of a line traveling at airplane speed. This bit involved complex curve fitting by Gaussian Quadrature (Who he?- Ed.), and I'll leave it lying right there. The validity is unquestionable so we constructed the final nomographs which appear here: You think that part was tough? Those are the answers. You should have been around for the questlons!

Two other gentlemen got in hot licks. Piper Mason went at the problem with a jet model and careful observations, outlining a good test method. Bob Ormiston's observations pretty well concurred with what we finally got. What did we get, you ask?

We Got Results:
1. An angle between the CG and the line-guide which if built into an airplane will fly that airplane squarely tangent to the circle; theoretically providing least drag, most thrust and good line tension.

2. If you don't want to fly squarely tangent to the circle, you can correctly bias the angle to suit your whim. No Guesswork when yawing in or out.

3. An exact method of determining the line drag the engine has to move. This will lead down the musty corridors to finding airplane drag coefficients, measuring the effect of streamlining, engine hop-up, prop thrust etc. We still need 1% accurate engine Bhp characteristics and any kind of propeller thrust data.

4. A basis for evaluating the best techniques for "whipping."

And we finally opened a door that was closed.

Practical Considerations: For about two years we subjected the calculated results to flight testing. Speed work by Roger Theobald, TR by Pete Soule, Rat and TR by John Barr. Stunt by Roger Wildman and "lil ole linemaker me" dashing around with Combat, Carrier and 1/2A - bugging all concerned. Each time we carefully adjusted speed and CG-to-line-guide relation to airplane weight we confirmed the accuracy of the calculations.

Just to keep it from being too simple we got "wind." Real briefly; wind, when headed directly into, causes an additional line-drag load, this one uniform (like catenary) se TH and T to balance it are equal. It can be troublesome since V is not increased and is sometimes decreased which means &omega will get larger. Upwind the nose pulls in. Downwind the effect is opposite. Jolly old experience (the resuits of poor judgment) shows us the 1/2A through .15 sport airplanes and all stunt types need increased line rake for breezy flying. Reasoning process, backed by flight work, says for large Cd, like with slow velocities and small lines, the build up of drag is more drastic. Also, slow basic speeds (around 50 mph) mean a 30-mph wind is over 50% of the base speed. So we simply provide these airplanes with extra holes in the line guide to increase rake in. 1.5 degree, intervals.

If your 1/2A is stuck with one leadout location add 15 mph when calculating DL. This about covers a 30-mph wind condition. A stunt ship should be ilown with rake as close to ideal as possible to hold down lateral glitching on tight(?) corners. Half-A's generally are marginal on basic line tension, so we must guarantee that they'll stay under controL Speed jobs are still subject to more testing, but don't bother correcting for wind. Cornbat, Rat and TR ships have worked out best with ideal calculated' angles. Carrier ships are calculated at 40 mph speed to cover the speed range accurately.

Look over Table I for some extreme values in any category. Lines used are either required by rules or "most used"' size. Weights are a little "outside" both directions. Final numbers pretty well box in each category. Numbers are "straight", no adjustment for wind.

How about engine ofiset and rudder? The facts vary widely so that each case is a new game. The CF-DL force is much larger than the combined forces of any normal engine offset or normal rudder area. Again Stunt and 1/2A sport must be evaluated each to its own. If you build-in the right &omega, bad judgment on engine offset and rudder area won't hurt much. Incidentally, the side force from engine offset isn't what we look for, unless you put in 10 degrees or more. We examine the thrust line's distance inboard of the CG (it had better be inboard) to evaluate its turning moment to keep the nose headed properly under all weird conditions.

If you want to tell me about that extreme case that shoots all this down, be very certain you send all of the facts! There are no mysteries; only a lack of complete knowledge.

We have not deliberately ignored the Scale buffs. Your problems are always very special and we recommend that you play the game straight. It was convenient to end the weight scale on Nomograph 4 at 100 ounces, but if you have something heavier, divide the weight by 2, perform the calculation and double the CF.

Nomographs and Procedures: The nomograph is a handy tool, similar in operation to a slide rule, in that logarithms of numbers are added or subtracted geometrically to perform multiplication or division. The two dimensional layout essentially. operates on the principle of similar triangles allowing answer or pivot line's location to automatically include constant factors. Each nomograph is designed to solve a specific equation, making it ideal for often-used calculations. The only other tools necessary are a straight edge, preferably clear plastic (and very straight) and a thin sharp pointed instrument (like a pencil). Throughout the Projected series we will provide nomographs for all significant mathematics.

Finally, the nomograph generally allows slide-rule accuracy, always precise enough to match our building capabilities. Our nomographs will be designed to start on outside scales (Left and Right), working through pivot lines 1 and/or 2 and the inside scales toward the answer. After you gain experience you'll flnd that they can be solved in different order to work backwards toward some independent variable. [Example - Find weight of airplane on 60' x.015" dia lines to generate 50# of CF @ 100 mph. (Ans. 4½ lb.)].

For practice you might solve the examples in Table I to see how estimates of points are handled. Let's take the "Sport 35" at 18 ounces for a trial run. Step by step: (Note - examples shown on Nomographs are to demonstrate procedure only).

A. Reynolds Number from Nomograph I
1. Place pointer on V scale (LH) at 60 mph.
2. Slide straight edge flrmly against pointer and move right end until it lines up with .015 line diameter on RH scale.
3. Read answer of 700 from center scale.

Now you have the whole basis. Hit the first point with pointer, slide straight edge to it, swing edge to other point and read.



B. (Cd).
This one is simply read from Graph I.

Note that the R scale is logarithmic, the Cd scale is linear and use your noodle when estimating. Cd in our case is 1.12.



C. Drag for One Line - Nomograph 2
1. Pointer on 60 mph (LH outside) (V)
2. Straight edge from pointer to 60' line length (r) (RH outside)
3. This time instead of readihg, lift pointer and move over to where the straight edge crosses Pivot Line 1. Place pointer there.
4. Holding edge against point on PL 1 swing edge down to 1.12 on the Cd scale (inside RH).
5. Pick up and hold point at Pivot Line 2.
6. Holding point at PL 2, swing left edge down to .015 line dia., (d).
7. Now read the answer frem Drag scale (DL) (.20 lb/line).



D. Centrifugal Force-Nomograph 3
1. Pick up model weight (18 oz) on LH scale using inside divisions.
2. Set straight edge to cross line length scale at 60'.
3. Pick up and hold crossing of Pivot Line.
4. Swing edge up to 60 mph on RH Speed scale.
5. Read answer from CF scale as 4.4 lbs.



E. Rake angle-Nomograph 4
1. Determine line drag (DL) by.multiplying DL from step (C) by the number of lines. (2 x .20 = .40#)
2. Pick up line drag on DL (LH scale) at 0.40 lb.
3. Set up straight edge to cross CF (RH scale) at 4.4 lbs.
4. FInally! Read rake either in degrees (5.5 degrees) or in inches back in 10" of span' (.98" in 10"). The latter method is a bit more accurate for layout purposes, particulary if you don't have a good big protractor.



The whole operation should take less than 5 minutes and both speed and accuracy improve with practice.

Wrap Up: One last item. The angle we calculate is partially phantom, in that it falls exactly half way between the line guide holes for a two-line. system, when the lines are equally loaded. That "equally loaded" is important. As the elevator is moved from neutral the point shifts to the line under greater tension. If you operate a limited bellcrank movement, as in combat, the load will be carried completely by either wire during maneuvers and the point of action will coincide with that leadouL These facts dictate that line-guide holes should be very close, together or through the same hole. One hole is practical only if you connect the clips inside the wing, or if you stagger the leadout ends. Otherwise the holes should never be farther apart than one inch, preferrably closer than a half inch.

With a three-line Robert's system it is conventional that pull on the middle line closes the throttle. It is desirable to bring this line out closer to the aft line, also arranging controls so that the aft line is "'UP". This trick will allow slow flight at maximum yaw angle. The over-and-under lendout system in Stunt is somewhat shaky, since the airplane responds in the lateral direction (roll), generally unfavorably, if you're looking for maximum smoothness in sharp corners.

If, perchance, your use of these data show's apparent errors, please try to consider every variable involved before you condemn us. Many carefully observed experiments have been performed to establish our high degree of confidence. If you still have trouble ship us every bit of information and we'll check it out


My thanks to Keith Trostle for supplying copies of the original article.


 
    


Control-Line Aerodynamics Made Painless
THE CONTROL SYSTEM
By Bill Netzeband
Originally published in 'American Modeler', September/October 1966.

For us it is difficult, for him, easy! But in this priceless discussion there are nuggets of gold strewn all over the circle.
If you dig math, you'll be miles ahead of the game. If not, even a casual reading will open many doors.
-----oooOooo-----


Because both lift and centrifugal force increase as the square of velocity, and the lift capability of a given surface increases due to more favorable Reynold's Number, an airplane should turn better at a higher speed. Yet we have all experienced the stunt or combat rig that "opened up" at high speeds.
There are also the cases of speed jobs that become uncontrollable after hitting top end, or the sport ship that "stiffens up" when the engine peaks. All of these mysteries are not mysteries at all. The control system was simply not capable of moving the elevator at those speeds. So this session should clear out the lack of science normally used in control system "design". When we're through we will have established sound calculations for: control surface loads (torque about the hinge); pushrod maximum load before buckling; correct control horn length; correct belicrank size; and correct handle line spacing. A system designed by these methods will not only operate at all practical speeds, but can be tailored to your personal control motions as a pilot.

What System? A control-line airplane achieves aerodynamic control information through a system of first class levers (Fig. 3). A handle is attached to a pilot and to a T-shaped bellcrank in the airplane via two inextensible flexible wires. The bellcrank forces are translated into push-pull forces via a rigid pushrod which connects to a control horn(s) at the elevator and/or flaps. These forces overcome aerodynamic loads on the moveable control surfaces, thus positioning them in direct relation to control handle position.

It should be pointed out that we provide positioning forces, and that ignorance of this concept has lead to some spectacular landing approaches. Look at Fig. 3 and pick up the nomenclature assigned to the various dimensions of interest. We'll begin analysis at the other end; as usual.


 
The Control Surface: During this discussion we will refer to a control surface, which can be either elevator or flap. With no torque applied about a control surface hinge, the surface will assume a neutral position. If a torque is applied, the surface will change angle (move) until the airloads on the surface balance the torque. The airloads are proportional to the area of the surface, (span x chord) (bc), the chord (c), theairspeed (V), the deflection from the chord line (&delta), and the angle of attack (&omega) of the fixed surface.

Precise formula is Equation 10 (Nomograph 5). Hf is the total hinge torque. From Eq. 10 we can surmise some interesting surmeece. Hinge torque increases as the square of velocity, and the cube of scale (b.c.c.), also increasing directly with (&delta & &omega). You fly a given airplane twice as fast, you need four times the control force, or build a twice-size airplane and it will require eight times the control force.

Any clues yet? A major breakthrough toward CL system analysis was finding sound data for (Ch), the Hinge torque parameter. This number plotted in Graph (2) provides a coefficient related to control surface deflection and fixed surface (&omega) for known~ratios of hinged surface chord to total chord (Cf/C). When applied in Eq. 10 it gives actual hinge torque in pound-inches, having had "q" corrected for units normally used (inches, and mph). To use Graph (2) determine (Cf/C) using average chords, maximum deflection angles and for now, estimated surface (&omega).


 
Nomograph 6 is a simple ratio computer, useful in several control calculations. More exact (&omega) is forthcoming. For a stabilator, estimate (&delta) as deflection angle less airplane (&omega). The two coefficients you read from the graph are applied in.Eq. 9 to get (Ch). As an example: if (Cf/C)=.40; C(&omega)=-0.01 and C(&delta)=-.015. We must watch the polarity of these functions, so: "Up" control surface (&delta) is a negative angle, Down is positive. A positive angle (&omega) of the fixed surface (airplane nose up) gets a negative sign (nose down is positive). These have more meaning to man-carrying machines since they must maintain one type of control action, "backstick, up elevator" etc'.

We are more intuitive with our numbers, since we can hook up our system in several conventions, as long as handle action. produces what we want. Back at the ranch, to get Ch for our example, let: (&delta)=30 degrees up and (&omega)=8 degrees nose up. Ch becomes (-.010) (-8) + (-.015) (-30) = + .53. For a stabilator at 30degrees deflection and airplane (&omega) of 8 degrees nose up, (&delta) becomes -30+8 = -22 degrees, and Ch=-.0l5 (-22) +.33. As we said, since we put the horn on either top or bottom the signs are important only during Ch calculation. You might browse through some of your own airplanes for practice.

To round out the first calculation let's make our elevator two different sizes with the same area, to illustrate the effect of aspect ratio. For 50 sq. in. we can go b=l0 and C=5 or b=25 and C=2. OK? At a velocity of 60 mph, Hf for Surface (1)=8.35 lb-in.; surface (2) Hf=3.35 lb-in. One blow for high aspect ratio. If you increased your velocity to 85 mph, Hf would double!

The Pushrod: This essential device, is generally overworked and underpaid. In its best geometry it should be an absolutely straight rod, but this is seldom possible. It is weakest in compression (push), and is treated mathematically by Euler's Equation for Long Thin Cylinders in compression. Failure is due to buckling, or springing out of a straight line, and having done this it can carry no larger load. It should be obvious that a buckled control rod will create no more surface deflection, generally allowing the surface to "back off" or lose angle. About a third of our problems are explained by this.


 
Graph (3) presents calculated buckling loads for two sizes of common pushrod wire. We built a test rig and measured several diameters in various lengths. Results were: (a) We can get only 90 percent of calculated values because our wire isn't straight enough as we buy it; (b) Unsupported rods with as little as 1/8-in. offset, buckle at such ridiculously low figures, they are almost unpredictable; (c) our salvation lies in reducing unsupported rod distances with fairleads. With any design you know pushrod length, right? We need to know pushrod load. Comes the first compromise. We attack the problem by establishing a control horn dimension (e) which will allow pushrod load (Fr) to be a "safe" value, that is, below buckling load. Take your pushrod length, assume one fairlead in the exact center, enter Graph (3) at a length equal to the longest segment of pushrod (in our case 1/2 the total length). Read the proper curve for buckling load. Now look up Equation 11, plug in Hf, Fr, and Cos (&delta). Cos (&delta) is necessary because as you move the control surface, the effective control horn force arm decreases proportional to Cos (&delta). We are still solving for maximum loads.

Continuing our example, Hf=8.35, we pick 16-in. long 1/16-dia. pushrod so that Fr for an 8-in. rod=4 lbs. At (&delta)=30 degrees Cos (&delta)=.866, so e=2.4 in. Oops! So we have a kooky elevator, but let's thrash it through.

Use a 3/32-in. pushrod, Fr=20 lbs and e=.48in. A bit more reasonable, yes? Just as a matter of f'r'instance our other elevator would have needed a .97" horn with the 1/16-in. dia. pushrod.

The Delicrank: The force to actuate the elevator is amplified by the belicrank, is transmitted by the pushrod and comes from a differential tension balance between the lines as one end of the handle is moved away from the airplane. Note, if there were no elevator load, each line would carry a load equal to 1/2 CF in all positions, assuming no stops or restrictions to movement. The maximum force which can be used to move controls is the full Centrifugal force (CF) applied to one line in tension. The other line becomes slack and exerts no load on the system (assuming the aerodynamic drag tension components to be equal). This key opens the next door in our system analysis.

To establish bellcrank dimensions we utilize two sets of requiremcnts, spiced with some individuality. Equation 12 defines the relationship of bellcrank dimensions to the already fixed "numbers". If we have a 40 ounce airplane on 65-ft. lines; CF=9.l lbs b/c=2.2. Spelled out we need a bellcrank where (b) is not less than 2.2 x (c). But we don't have (c) yet! Comes the intuition backed by experience. The proof of the following is left up to the reader.

A study of bellcrank and horn geometry will show that the best relations between bellcrank travel (&phi) and elevator travel (&delta) occur when C is equal to or smaller than e. See Eq. 18 for relationship. Note also that angles are related by trigonometric functions since we generate a linear displacement by rotary motion. When c=e, each degree of bellcrank travel produces one degree of elevator, if the approach angle of the pushrod is parallel to a line between hinge points and the pushrod holes at neutral are square with this line. Good systems are possible with c's down to 0.6e. Below this it begins to take too much belicrank travel to produce elevator motion, although it could be useful to correct a sensitive design that is not totally unstable.

In cases where (c) is larger than (e), elevator angles quickly reach 85 degrees, the action becomes too "fast" at the ends, and the system is prone to be inadequate in producing useful control forces. So, we have narrowed the selection of c to a range between e and 0.6e. For trial values try 5 steps like e, 0.9e, 0.8e, 0.7e, and 0.6e or just pick one from experience. One other point; if b/c comes out larger than 3, you're really in trouble because standard bellcranks don't provide b/c much over 3. If this is the case, your solution is to establish a longer control horn, reducing pushrod loads, thus requiring less mechanical advantage at the bellcrank. Or, you can build your own custom bellcrank.

Another significant argument for reduced pushrod loads is hole wear. The lower the Fr, the longer a system will operate without wear. The practice of bushing the bearing holes leads in this same direction by increasing the hole surface area, thereby reducing the stress level, accomplishing the same reduced wear.



To pick a bellcrank, having established a reasonable (c), use Table 2 which lists most of the commercially available bellcranks and their dimensions. A horn with the proper (e) may be found in Table 3. Note that dimensions shown for external type horns are from the base of the horn to each hole. You'll have to add on 1/2 of the elevator thickness or specifically the distance from the horn base to the center of the hinge to get the proper (e) dimension. It is highly desirable that your b/c was less than one (1.0). In this case a bellcrank can be selected that will provide a b/c larger than the required b/c allowing a large safety margin. In such a case simply establish (c) as before, pick a bellcrank to suit your whim and record its b/c ratio.



In our example we will pick c=e (.438) so b=.97" (roughly a 2-in. bellcrank). This will give a marginal system with stiff "feel". From Table 2, the TF Nylon 2-in. is about the only exact copy available. This could be used with Veco small horn, a Kurtz horn or a Veco external horn on a 1/8-in. elevator. If we were carrying an 8 lb.-in. torque, the Veco small horn would probably not hack it due to the 1/16 wire carrying the torque. In fact for such a kooky elevator, we would probably go up to a 3/4-in. horn and a larger bellcrank to reduce pushrod wear. However, we'll carry this one through to completion, since it allows us to point out critical areas for compromise. Actually we are very close to the end.

The Handle: To complete the system we must pick a handle, specifically the line spacing to correctly correlate your natural motions to full elevator travel. To this end, you'll have to do some educated guesswork. Each of us has a hand-motion computer built into our brain. We've trained it and expect (or prefer) the airplane to hit its maximum control response, at the point of handle travel we like (&theta). The game then, is to find your own preference. Studies indicate it will be between 10 degrees and 30 degrees, averaging less than 25. My own preference seems to be 22 degrees and most people who have test flown my ships, prefer "faster controls" (smaller &theta). Our sample system, using my 22 degrees &theta would use a 2.68" line spacing (h=l.34), such spacing being twice h. We have just established dimensions for a complete control system. However, this system is just exactly right for all given parameters at 60 mph. At higher speeds we would be in trouble, at lower speeds, no problem. The reasons are not readily obvious, but consist of one large fact. We set up our controls to just reach pushrod buckling under the conditions specified. This is the limiting factor in the whole system since Fr is the maximum force which can be applied to the elevator horn.

We can increase pushrod force with more speed or a larger b/c at the bellcrank, but since Hf increases in the same relation as CF, our pushrod will buckle before reaching maximum (&delta). A further problem rears its ugly head when we try to hit a square corner coming into the wind out of level flight, with a marginal system. The CF comes from velocity relative to center of circle. Heading into the breeze causes this velocity to decrease, hence CF decreases. The elevator sees actual velocity of the airstream which increases. With increased Hf, decreased CF and a marginal Fr, you can't get full control! We recommend a tentative solution which applies a bias factor to Hf for stunt, combat and sport ships "that fly on their backs." Until further notice multiply Hf by 1.4 and then design your system.

The additional 40 percent should keep you out of trouble 98 percent of the time without overdesigning the system. We don't anticipate any problems with Rats, TR's, Carrier or Trainer types, unless elevators are a very large portion of the stabilizer. Design for a speed 10 mph over the highest you expect. Speed types have a problem to be covered at a later date, basically due to lack of torque at the control unit and high airspeeds.

Flaperoonies: Precision aerobatic types have a longer chore, since flaps also require force to move. Flap Hf and F are computed in the same way as the elevator. We suspect from preliminary aerodynamic checks that most contemporary ships don't change angle of attack during a maneuver, but you could assume maybe six degrees just for safety. Equation 13 is "good" only if you use a flap horn for transfer in 1-to-1 ratio (Fig. 3) (case I), or if you connect a-la late model T-Bird with direct connection between bellerank and elevator and tie your flaps to that same rod. The bellerank to flap rod must be designed to carry both flap and elevator loads for case (1).

Good design practice says use either equal flap and elevator travel or use more elevator travel than flap. So you must pick some geometric relation between (f) and (e) as well as relating both to (c). Takes a little judgment and a little more work, but you guys are in more danger than the rest, too. You might run a check for overhead maneuvers by assuming 1g (CF) and an airspeed around 40 mph. In most cases the enlarged Hf factor should cover you.

During overhead maneuvers, the lack of turning ability can be traced to low airspeed and one g unit taken away by gravity. It begins to appear that a correetly designed acrobatic airplane would fly better at 60 mph, than at the 45 to 55 we use now. At best, there is an excellent chance that the conventional design can fly better than it does right now.



Details: Graph (4) provides data to locate a set of stops at the bellcrank to provide known maximum control angles, or simply to provide enough clearance. Eq. 15 computes the bellcrank angle (&theta) for values of (&delta) and (e/c). For our test case &theta=&delta or 30 degrees. If we used the TF 2-in. bellerank, we'd locate the mounting bolt 5/8in. from a rib restricting its motion, and thus the elevator to 30 degrees. The dotted portion of each curve indicates that the pushrod arm of the bellerank must be cut down to fit.

It is interesting to note that all bellcranks except the old Kenhi unit have an unmodified minimum &theta within one degree of 40. lt is recommended that a resilient pad, such as urethane foam or foam rubber 1/4" thick, faced with shim stock, be used as stops. This will decrease the shock load on the lines during sharp action.



The sketch in Fig. 3 illustrates another critical feature of the system. For symmetrical up and down angles the pushrod end in the horn should fall on a line 90 degrees from the line connecting the horn hole and the bellcrank. If installed as shown in an aft location, the effective torque arm has already traveled a good part of its arc, and your actual (e) dimension is longer than you thought. Such placement can be used to advantage IF you desire more control in one direction. lf placed aft of the hinge you'll get fast up and slow down. Placed forward of hinge the opposite is true. Of course for the horn on top all bets are reversed!

Summary: Elevator size and maximum angle are fixed values for any given airplane and mission. So Hf is fixed. Pushrod buckling load is the first weak link, so it must be designed by computing an (e) dimension to suit the physical requirements. The pushrod can be strengthened by shortening unsupported distances with fairleads (guides) and/or increasing the wire diameter. Pushrod loads can be reduced by using a larger e at the horn, and wear can be further reduced by increasing the thickness of material at the bearing holes, either bushings or thicker material. The design b/c ratio is the second area where trouble can be eliminated (or caused). It should be set up so that the required b/c is less than one (1.0), and a bellcrank should be selected with a b/c ratio larger than 1.5. These additional mechanical advantages should prevent loss of control under almost any unexpected condition of flight. IF you find that the system gets out of hand in a practical scnsc, you can always back up closer to the exact values computed. Finally, your personal handle travel preference should be established by experiment and designed into ALL of your airplanes.


 
Sorry, I can't improve on this quality.

DES!GN PROCEDURE
1. For elevator-chord ratio (CF/C) and predicted maximum angle of deflection calculate (Ch), using Eq. 9 and Graph (2).
2. With airspeed, elevator dimensions and Ch calculate Hf-(Nomograph 5). (See text for Stunt and Combat.)
3. From pushrod size and geometry, determine Fr (Graph 2).
4. Establish (e) using equation 11, at the maximum angle from step 1.
5. Calculate Centrifugal Force using airplane estimated weight, line length andairspeed. Nomograph 3. [Part I]
6. Calculate b/c from eq. 12 or if flaps are used, eq. 13.
7. Browse through table 3 and pick a horn with proper e dimension.
8. As a trial c, pick out a bellcrank with a c dimension so that e/c=1. Check that bellcrank for b/c required. If the bellcrank's b/c is larger than your required b/c, you're in. If not, try another. Use Nomograph 6 to speed calculations involving ratios. As proved earlier c should be between e and 0.6e.
9. With bellcrank selected you can establish handle dimension (h), designing it with Eq. 14 to move your favorite angle (&theta). Remember (h) is 1/2 of the actual line spacing.
10. Using Eq. 15 establish bellerank travel angle (&theta).
II. If desired, a blocked system can be made using locating dimension from Graph (4), or at least guaranteeing enough clearance.


 
Sorry, I can't improve on this quality.

Part 3 will include data on single-line systems, aerodynamic balance of control surfaces, and the physics of flight at altitudes above the handle. These first articles cover those items which are peculiar to CL airplanes. Future articles will establish firm design data for the airplane itself from minimum turn radius to landing speeds.


My thanks to Keith Trostle for supplying copies of the original article.



In a dead-stick glide, Dave Gierke's excellentIy designed NOVI displays it's srnooth, flewing lines.

Control-Line Aerodynamics Made Painless (Part 3)
By Bill Netzeband
Originally published in 'American Modeler', December 1967.

'Your airplane is smarter than you are! It knows and obeys every aerodynamics law.' Which is to say that 'old debil' math is really a useful tool. By its careful application many 'mysterious' factors are made plain.
-----oooOooo-----


Editor's Note: In the Sept./Oct. and Nov./Dec., 1966 issues were presented Parts I and II of this series. Both the editor and author lacked faith at that time that enough control-liners would seriously consider the mathematical aspects of design. Many favorable letters have been received since. Some called us "chicken" for quitting. This final article now is published with the observation that it should have been printed long ago. (Both dates are wrong - DD.)
Reviewing the introduction to this informative series we may have supplied rather shaky reasons for going to all these lengths to properly design a "rock on a string. "The fact that most published designs were "brute force" (cut-nt-crash) developed didn't always detract from their final shape.

It has become apparent that anyone, no matter how misinformed, can run down the rest of us who "roll our own" designs. So let us elevate the purpose of these reports thusly: Your finished airplane is smarter than you are! It instinctively knows every solitary aerodynamic law, and unquestionly obeys them to the letter. It therefore behooves us to learn as many of the important laws as possible so that we don't demand something which that smart lil' ole' airplane cannot do.

We will deal mostly in how, and how much with flights into why, where it is important. Mathematics are an essential part of our process, since without numbers, the principles are pretty academic and often misleading. As promised, the derivations of equations generally won't be detailed, except where the final product is clarified. It is also planned to suggest test methods and/or devices, so that ultimately we may communicate on the firm base of measured performance, rather than "Gee Whiz, it sure looked good." So much for reintroduction.

Since you've already peeked at the sketches, we're dealing with the major lateral and vertical force diagram to evaluate surface lift requirements, maximum level flight altitudes and a method for measuring the maximum lift for an airplane. Also a discussion of the propeller as a gyroscope with perhaps the answer to some of your "mysterious" crashes.


 
Fig. 4a illustrates the major physical forces generated by restraining a mass (our CG) in horizontal flight level with the handle. CF is centrifugal force from Part 1, Nomograph No.3. FA is line tension equal and opposite to CF. W & L are airplane weight and the surface lift necessary to just equal W. This is the simplest case, since each vector system is essentially "in line." This is the flight mode used to determine maximum line tension and trim lift.

It should be noted here that wing lift is assumed to be normal (perpendicular) to the chord line. If the airplane is banked into the circle (vector LB), the wing must generate more life to support W, buf will allow FA to decrease. For small angles, up to 10 degrees LB is almost equal to L, and the reduction of FA is W tan B, since L=W. For a heavy ship (3 lb.) at a l0-degree bank angle, line tension would be reduced almost 0.5 lb. without requiring additional lift. This effect is directly opposite if banked outward, and is not proportional to airspeed.

The use of this phenomenon is not desirable for aerobatics or combat, but could be used for in Navy Carrier (outbank) or a heavy Rat or Speed job (bank in). The most reliable method to obtain this force is to place the line(s) guide ahove (bank in) or below (outbank) the CG of the airplane. Any other method to generate a roll force (wing warping, ailerons, weight, etc.) will add detrimental side effects (no pun intended) such as added drag, an angle proportional to airspeed or adverse yawing effects.

It can be readily shown that a bank angle exists for any line length and airspeed which would give zero line tension (W tan B = CF). Actually, the amount of weight is not a factor, since CF can be reduced to its equivalent "g" factor by factoring out W. Therefore bank angle for zero line tension becomes a product of line length and airspeed. For 60' lines at 100 mph, angle B would be 85 degrees 51 minutes (11 g's) NOT too practical, but interesting. It is entirely possible that the wing cannot generate the lift necessary to do a kooky trick like that, anyway.

Points against banking in, are the landing and takeoff, where "g" factors of less than 1/2 are generated. Control can be lost, and/or the airplane could "come in" on you. Meanwhile, back to important stuff. Fig. 4b represents the real meat of this sandwich. CF is now calculated for a radius less than the line length (r cos &lambda). (&lambda) is the angle of elevation, which is somewhat easier to visualize than actual altitude (h), and is more convertible for varying line lengths. (sin (&lambda) = h/r). Under the conditions of 4b, FA is less than FA for horizontal flight (Fig. 4a) since the lift vector (L) now assumes some horizontal restraining forces. L will be shown to become tremendous at high angles, and maximum lift capability of an airplane will limit the maximum elevation angle.

Perhaps we should point out that we are dealing with level flight, not to be confused with looping and such maneuvers. It is not so difficult to prove that an airplane can be zoomed into lift factors not available in level sustained flight due to kinetic energy stored in the system.



Equations 3-1 and 3-2 were derived by conventional vector analysis and are the basis for the rest of our juggling. To simplify trial analysis we factored out weight (W), reducing the force system to "g" units, now dependent only on airspeed (V) elevation angle (&lambda) and line length (r). We then substituted the equation for CF in terms of "g" units, arriving at equations 3-3 and 3-4. By specifying (V), and (r), we can calculate line tension and lift at various elevation angles. Calculations are reduced by use of Nomograph No.3 (July/Aug. '66) and Trigonometric Functions annoted in Table 4. Simple results are plotted on Graph 5 for an airplane on 60' lines traveling at a constant 100 mph. To get actual forces, simply multiply "g" factors by W. Sample numbers would apply to a slow Rat at 26 ounces. L in "g"s are listed.

Come now the engineering compromises. We cannot get lift without drag. Increased lift causes increased drag, so without being able to increase thrust, the higher we fly. the slower we go. O.K.? Since high flying is one large bone of contention in contest judging, we should know where a "point of diminishing returns" is reached. Or. should I fly at the maximum allowed height or not? (We do uot advocate cheating!) Space does not allow complete evaluation of induced drag at this sitting, so complete analysis of actual speed reduction versus "apparent speed increase" will merely be dangled before you. right now. ("Apparent speed" is equal to V actual/cos(&lambda).)



Of immediate interest is maximum lift, since we now have most of the machinery to measure it. To evaluate a given airplane, a graph or series of point calculations leading to L versus (&lambda) are necessary. For most CL airplanes a Lift Coefficient (CL) of 0.9 is about the limit before going into hard stall conditions. Nomograph 7 will calculate L, D, or CL and CD depending on the order of procedure. (Eq. 3-5 and 3-6) If. as we have right now, values for L, we can calculate CL. The example shown on the face of the Nomoglaph can be solved for CL by proceeding as follows:
I ) Pick up wing area (S) and lift required (L) with straight edge and hold crossing point 1;
2) Holding 1, swing to V on left hand scale, reading answer CL on RH scale.

Lift coefficient (CL) is a figure of merit defining the lift per unit area of a wing for specific conditions of Reynolds Number and angle of attack. It is necessary to introduce it, unadorned, so that we have common ground to complete this discussion. As we said, except for a high efficiency stunt wing with high lift devices, most CL wings will stall at CL=0.9. At this point drag is extremely high, and lift will decrease if you force the wing to higher angles of attack. An end point for high lift without excessive decrease in airspeed due to induced drag is closer to 0.3 or 0.4.

Having plotted or tabled L and corresponding CL versus (&lambda), pick out the CL of interest, and note the elevation angle. This is the maximum angle at which you can fly level (if CL were 0.9) or maybe the highest to fly for best "apparent speed."

During all of this, a detailed study of PA indicates a small decrease in line tension as (&lambda) increases. From Eq. 3-1, at 90 degrees line tension disappears except for airplane weight coming down. From Eq. 3-3 it appears to be different, that line tension in g units is equal to horizontal g's reduced by sin (&lambda) (which varies from 0 to 1.0). The apparent mathematical anomaly is caused by the fact that under practical circumstances CF for a zero radius is infinite, such that correct procedures require definition ot max-min values by calculus. We cannot practically reach these limits, so they are hereby ignored.

if we apply wing areas of 90 sq. in. and 140 sq. in. to our sample plot and a fixed weight of 26 ounces, we have a country fair argument for the larger area Rat Racers. F'rinstance, applying CL of 0.4 for best speed at altitude, the 90 comes in at 15 degrees, the 140 at 26. Maximum elevation for the 90 is conservatively 35 degrees as opposed to 49 degrees for the big one. Granted you can zoom maybe ten degrees higher to pass, but you won't stay up there long! Note also, that line tension is reduced by only 0.9 ,'g" even at 60 degrees, although the speed reduction we know exists will cause an actual reduction, since CF will decrease. Finally, 20' (max. racing al- titude, except passing) represents an (&lambda) of 19.5 degrees, not too encouraging for the 90, if the 140's decide to run at 20 ft!



if we had a way to measure V and (&lambda) while flying our airplane, without wind, at its highest altitude, we could calculate its maximum lift coefficient. Luckily, both can be measured with reasonable accuracy, if you want to take a little time to build a crude theodelite from Fig. 5; Using the gadget like a pistol, sighting through the eyepiece until the bullseye covers the airplane, while several laps are clocked with a stop watch, you have both angle and velocity nailed down. (V) can be calculated from Eq 3-7.

Knowing the angle (&lambda) and velocity, we can plug these numbers, along with (r), into equation 3-4 and come up with (L') in g's. By multiplying (L') by (W), we have (L max) from which CL max can be calculated from Nomograph 7 (Eq 3-5 or 3-6). This would settle manv questions, like in stunt as to just what CL is a practical maximum. The reduction in airspeed from level flight (minimum drag) will give a measure of drag increase. It is needless to tell you that this information is useless, unless you dig in and apply it, isn't it?

Particularly significant in stunt and combat is maximum lift, since this determines the minimum looping radius. It has become apparent that indiscriminant use of full-size airfoil data has led to some extremely optimistic turn radii. We seldom achieve the efficiency of a large wing at high speed. Therefore, to derive usefulI data we are using experimental measurements such as this one to write our own book.



The next phenomenon has been published before, without specifically pointing out one dangerous area. The propeller acts as a gyroscope since it is a rotating mass and numerical analysis proves that under adverse conditions it can generate enough precession torque to cause trouble. Referring to Fig. 6a we see the conventional forces associated with a gyro. The physics of the system are too complex to put down here; only the results will be presented. Essentially what occurs for conventional prop rotation (CCW when viewed from front), when the rotation axis X-X (prop shaft) is tilted, a reaction torque appears in one of the axes perpendicular to the X-X axis.

In the case shown in Fig. 6a, we are flying in the conventional direction (CCW) and move the nose down (coupling forces P-P'). This rotation is about the Z-Z axis and the precession torque appears about the vertical axis Y-Y in the direction shown. All of the forces involved here are couples (two equal and opposite forces in the same plane, but not along the same line). A couple is handled as a torque (a force on an arm causing rotation) and can be balanced only with an equal and opposite couple. or torque. These facts cause the precession force to be independent of its distance from the CG, so long or short nose lengths do not affect it. Therefore, the illustrated torque appears at the CG turning the nose into the circle.

As noted, nose up turns produce nose out torque, while the steady left hand acceleration of level flight produces a small nose up torque. These arc all real, sport fans. The amount of precession torque depends directly on the mass (weight) of the propeller, its diameter (specifically the CG location of each blade), the engine rpm and the angular acceleration (rate of airplane turning) which is in turn dependcnt on airspeed and turn radius. The larger any of these, except turn radius, the larger the precession torque.

There are several danger points in the precision acrobatic pattern, where high rates of nose.down pitch are required, the square eight and the middle two corners of the hourglass. Noting the reversal of conditions in inverted flight (Fig. 6b) one can include the second and third reverse wingover comers and bottoms of outside square loops. The effect can vary from momentary loss of control to complete loss of airplane.

In the early days with the climb and dive maneuvers we had troubles, too. To deliberately look for this force John Barr and I took his late "Lil Satan" with ST 15 diesel power, increased the stabilator area for sharper turns and performed hairy climbs with sharp pullouts. Finally with a 9-3 prop, relatively slow airspeed (low line tension) and high rpm, we started getting it every time. The nose would swing in violently, the ship would completely slack off and float to the other side. During the initial test series we were ready and could regain control before it crashed, but during a night session she pulled the bit so quickly and accidentally that the end arrived. The stunt ship with its marginal centrifugal force and a combat rig with a slight warp and high rpm mill are prime victims for this force. Since plastic props weigh about 50 percent more than wood props they will generate 50 percent more precession force.

The effect of the small nose-up or down-down precession in level flight explains the apparent stability increase while flying inverted since the effect is destabilizing in CCW flight and stabilizing in CW. This probably explains why the majority of the "developed" stunt rigs end up with a raised thrust line, to partially compensate for the precession effect on trim.


My thanks to Keith Trostle for supplying copies of the original article.


Me I just do this by what has worked for me in the past. But all this is not what this thread is about. Its about my regret not flying my second flight.

 
    


 
    
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 12:05:33 AM by Robert Storick »
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2013, 12:09:36 AM »
UHhhhhhhh...I think you missed something here.  Brett said RUN a TIMER...you know one of those things that shuts off the fuel supply.  They're legal and available now.  Work off of a tiny little battery and very small servo.  Less than an ounce of extra weight.
Shut off at the same time every time!!!
I saw a couple being used here in Tucson over a year ago!  Worked very well.
I think Bob Whitely had one in his Blackbird that he used at the last team trials.
Personally I think it's a very minor problem and very reliable to measure fuel and keep the fuel system clean and set the needle properly.

Randy Cuberly

 They're legal? If that's the case I guess it's ok then, I didn't realize that fuel shutoffs were allowed for IC in stunt.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2013, 02:18:12 AM »
I handed it to you.  I even did it for you.  Here is the reference and calculator once again: http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=30303.msg300702#msg300702 This assumes that you have Excel, but doesn't most everybody these days? 

Moment from gyroscopic precession is independent of the length of the nose.  
    I reviewed that thread a little before getting into this one, but missed the link to the calculator. Thanks for the reminder. I have the same problem with it that I had last time. I downloaded it, but can't get anything loaded into it? Am I missing some instruction somewhere? I promise I'll do my home work over the weekend, but got to figure out how the calculator works. Too late tonight and work both jobs tomorrow. Must sleep.
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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2013, 07:46:19 AM »
It's not as self-explanatory as it looked at the time.  Enter numbers in the yellow cells.  You can enter as many parts as you want (one per row for each configuration) to add up.  The motor-battery example might help.  There I fiddled with the motor distance on config. 2 to get the cg to come out the same as it would for config. 1. 
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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2013, 09:11:35 AM »
It's not as self-explanatory as it looked at the time.  Enter numbers in the yellow cells.  You can enter as many parts as you want (one per row for each configuration) to add up.  The motor-battery example might help.  There I fiddled with the motor distance on config. 2 to get the cg to come out the same as it would for config. 1.  

Well Howard, I actually did download the sheet, and I tried to even be as even handed as I could to both the IC and the Epower, using the big PA for the IC, and the 6.5 oz epower motor  and typical battery for a ship my size. I then did a little sooth saying, and decided I would use the actual effective CG of each part. The PA CG was determined off a real engine I had handy, then biased in relation to where it bolts down (pretty much the front two holes close to the larger ball bearing). I would imagine everything that "mounts" has it's own little moment as well, so I'm kinda winging it, but it should be really close. Like I've held Epower batteries, and aside from the wire sticking out the front, they feel pretty well symmetrically balanced, same for IC fuel tank, maybe a hair forward towards the mounts, so the middle of the battery should be a safe area to use as the point to locate it on your spreadsheet.

Anywho, using my Katana moments (10.5 nose moment, plus 3.5" back to CG for a total of 14" moment from Spinner ring and everything spread out in relation to that) it's darn near a wash, with the rear mounted Epower motor, but the advantage goes to the IC setup for moment of inertia with the front mounted EMotor by a about 12% (PA75 193 vs / EMotor 223).
I found the exercise very interesting, thanks Howard!

I'm not an aero designer, but I still have to say I feel this is only a small component of our design goals. I mean, it really shouldn't be a contest of who has the smallest front moment of inertia, because I think we WANT to run a certain length tail moment with a relational tail volume, and since I think we like to watch a certain average length fuselage package to make our tricks pretty and draw our shapes in the size hemisphere we play in.

So even if a lighter front end was actually possible, would we want it? I don't think so...

Example - I have 2) PA 40's, one old school, and one Merlin that weighs about like an FP. The scary thing is they put out nearly the same power. BUT... I would never want to use the Merlin in a big 670 square inch ship, even if it could pull it, since I'll just be adding nose weight anyways, and I don't think a redesign to force it to work would be to any advantage.

Still, like I said, it was a fun excerise.

EricV

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2013, 11:12:27 AM »
The Merlin 40 which only weighs 8 ounces will put out more power than a VF40 that weighs 12 ounces,
Bob McDonald and many others are using a Merlin 40 on a ship over 700 sq in.  THe Merlin 40 will pull an IMPACT as well or better than a VF, you would just need to add 4 ounces of lead in the nose to balance out the moment.
Eric the Merlin 40 will power your airplane easily, at 8 ounces..you also would need a little noseweight .

Randy

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2013, 11:44:54 AM »
I mean, it really shouldn't be a contest of who has the smallest front moment of inertia...

Oh, heck no.  I wish I'd made my current dog's nose longer.  I probably wouldn't notice the increased Ixx, but I'd sure notice the effect of removing the 3 oz. of ballast. 
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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2013, 12:35:30 PM »
<snip> Eric the Merlin 40 will power your airplane easily, at 8 ounces..you also would need a little noseweight.
Randy

Yes, hence my comments and the point of the mental excersize. I'll comment more in next reply to Howard...

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2013, 02:56:12 PM »
Oh, heck no.  I wish I'd made my current dog's nose longer.  I probably wouldn't notice the increased Ixx, but I'd sure notice the effect of removing the 3 oz. of ballast. 
Making the next Dog's hindquarters lighter would be even better (best of both worlds), you have the technology 8)
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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2013, 03:22:59 PM »
Oh, heck no.  I wish I'd made my current dog's nose longer.  I probably wouldn't notice the increased Ixx, but I'd sure notice the effect of removing the 3 oz. of ballast. 

I think we are simpatico Howard. And your spreadsheet shows, it doesn't take a huge amount of moment length change, to negate a lot of ballast out at the end. This stuff can all be designed around if you have a good feel for the parameters in advance, or are working on an evolution of an existing design and just changing the weight /length on one aspect.

And, also addressing Randy's comments, what I was getting at was more design related than any particular power plants performance attributes, the PA’s were just a handy example. I could have said that using a 6.5 ounce Brodak 40 in a short nose OTS Humongous where it would normally have something like a 10.5 ounce K&B 4011 to make the same point. It was a statement about similar power but vastly different weights not being ideal for a given airframe where you would have to add balast or change the design.

EricV

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2013, 04:21:49 PM »
"And, also addressing Randy's comments, what I was getting at was more design related than any particular power plants performance attributes, the PA’s were just a handy example. I could have said that using a 6.5 ounce Brodak 40 in a short nose OTS Humongous where it would normally have something like a 10.5 ounce K&B 4011 to make the same point. It was a statement about similar power but vastly different weights not being ideal for a given airframe where you would have to add balast or change the design.

EricV"


Which was why I made the post..many people build the mid size or small 61 size SVs with the Merlin 40 for the power, we extent the nose moment on the plane 1/2 inch ,and lighten the tail for balance. There are even a few building and flying 680 to 710 sq in planes with the 8 ounce Merlin.. if you want to do the math..it has much less concentrated weight in the nose moment than an electric..I am not sure it really makes any difference that one can feel " if" the design and layout is correct, or close, I even think it maybe worse to build a plane extent the nose, put a 6 ounce motor up front with a 11.5 inch nose instead of a 9.5 inch..then have to add 2 ounces of lead to the front, and or move the battery pack as far forward as you can. I certainly would opt for not having to do either.

Randy

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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2013, 05:21:48 PM »
It's not as self-explanatory as it looked at the time.  Enter numbers in the yellow cells.  You can enter as many parts as you want (one per row for each configuration) to add up.  The motor-battery example might help.  There I fiddled with the motor distance on config. 2 to get the cg to come out the same as it would for config. 1. 

    Well, I fiddled with it, as you say, for a bit before I went to bed, and ran the curser all over the page and clicking on stuff. I finally noticed the tabs on top, and when I put the curser there, a box dropped down saying those functions are locked until I get a licensed copy of Micrsoft Office. I don't do any real spread sheet work, so I never knew I didn't have it. Makes me wonder how I was able to download it and open it up? Anyhow, probably wouldn't hurt for me to get it anyway. The only Office software I have is from 2001 or older, and probably doesn't have Excel on it. I'll look into that this weekend.
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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2013, 10:28:57 PM »
Well Howard, I actually did download the sheet, and I tried to even be as even handed as I could to both the IC and the Epower, using the big PA for the IC, and the 6.5 oz epower motor  and typical battery for a ship my size. I then did a little sooth saying, and decided I would use the actual effective CG of each part. The PA CG was determined off a real engine I had handy, then biased in relation to where it bolts down (pretty much the front two holes close to the larger ball bearing). I would imagine everything that "mounts" has it's own little moment as well, so I'm kinda winging it, but it should be really close. Like I've held Epower batteries, and aside from the wire sticking out the front, they feel pretty well symmetrically balanced, same for IC fuel tank, maybe a hair forward towards the mounts, so the middle of the battery should be a safe area to use as the point to locate it on your spreadsheet.

Anywho, using my Katana moments (10.5 nose moment, plus 3.5" back to CG for a total of 14" moment from Spinner ring and everything spread out in relation to that) it's darn near a wash, with the rear mounted Epower motor, but the advantage goes to the IC setup for moment of inertia with the front mounted EMotor by a about 12% (PA75 193 vs / EMotor 223).
I found the exercise very interesting, thanks Howard!

I'm not an aero designer, but I still have to say I feel this is only a small component of our design goals. I mean, it really shouldn't be a contest of who has the smallest front moment of inertia, because I think we WANT to run a certain length tail moment with a relational tail volume, and since I think we like to watch a certain average length fuselage package to make our tricks pretty and draw our shapes in the size hemisphere we play in.

So even if a lighter front end was actually possible, would we want it? I don't think so...

Example - I have 2) PA 40's, one old school, and one Merlin that weighs about like an FP. The scary thing is they put out nearly the same power. BUT... I would never want to use the Merlin in a big 670 square inch ship, even if it could pull it, since I'll just be adding nose weight anyways, and I don't think a redesign to force it to work would be to any advantage.

Still, like I said, it was a fun excerise.

EricV


The number you have for a electric setup like mine are incorrect. Motor 6.5, spinner .5 ,prop 1.25,battery 12.5,esc 1,timer .5 and so were are comparing apples to apples add fuel weight to the IC setup As I know a PA 75 uses 8 OZ of fuel. Also don't forget the 2 Oz slung under the wing for the pipe. We are talking about flying weight.
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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2013, 10:41:21 PM »
One last statement. I have been building piped airplanes for only the last 20 years. Searching for the turn I miss. I have found it now with electric. Not saying its the best but its getting better for me.

Even my 48 oz piped Viper. I turned well but not like this new plane I am trimming out. The new electric beam wing flys and feels like a classic 40 OZ plane. I still can feel the concentrated weight in the nose but its better. I am sure its just not the power package that has given this feel. Its a over all combination of things.
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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2013, 10:48:33 PM »
    Well, I fiddled with it, as you say, for a bit before I went to bed, and ran the curser all over the page and clicking on stuff. I finally noticed the tabs on top, and when I put the curser there, a box dropped down saying those functions are locked until I get a licensed copy of Micrsoft Office. I don't do any real spread sheet work, so I never knew I didn't have it. Makes me wonder how I was able to download it and open it up? Anyhow, probably wouldn't hurt for me to get it anyway. The only Office software I have is from 2001 or older, and probably doesn't have Excel on it. I'll look into that this weekend.

I saved the file in the old file format.  It should work with Excel versions back to 1997.
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Re: Hind sight
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2013, 11:15:20 PM »
Well Howard, I actually did download the sheet, and I tried to even be as even handed as I could to both the IC and the Epower, using the big PA for the IC, and the 6.5 oz epower motor  and typical battery for a ship my size. I then did a little sooth saying, and decided I would use the actual effective CG of each part. The PA CG was determined off a real engine I had handy, then biased in relation to where it bolts down (pretty much the front two holes close to the larger ball bearing). I would imagine everything that "mounts" has it's own little moment as well, so I'm kinda winging it, but it should be really close. Like I've held Epower batteries, and aside from the wire sticking out the front, they feel pretty well symmetrically balanced, same for IC fuel tank, maybe a hair forward towards the mounts, so the middle of the battery should be a safe area to use as the point to locate it on your spreadsheet.

Anywho, using my Katana moments (10.5 nose moment, plus 3.5" back to CG for a total of 14" moment from Spinner ring and everything spread out in relation to that) it's darn near a wash, with the rear mounted Epower motor, but the advantage goes to the IC setup for moment of inertia with the front mounted EMotor by a about 12% (PA75 193 vs / EMotor 223).
I found the exercise very interesting, thanks Howard!

I'm not an aero designer, but I still have to say I feel this is only a small component of our design goals. I mean, it really shouldn't be a contest of who has the smallest front moment of inertia, because I think we WANT to run a certain length tail moment with a relational tail volume, and since I think we like to watch a certain average length fuselage package to make our tricks pretty and draw our shapes in the size hemisphere we play in.

So even if a lighter front end was actually possible, would we want it? I don't think so...

Example - I have 2) PA 40's, one old school, and one Merlin that weighs about like an FP. The scary thing is they put out nearly the same power. BUT... I would never want to use the Merlin in a big 670 square inch ship, even if it could pull it, since I'll just be adding nose weight anyways, and I don't think a redesign to force it to work would be to any advantage.

Still, like I said, it was a fun excerise.

EricV



            Moment (contribution to CG), inch-oz   203.5               Moment (contribution to CG), inch-oz   230.6         
            Moment of inertia about CG, inch2-ozm   2261.4               Moment of inertia about CG, inch2-ozm   2462.09         
                                          
                         My Katana                                                                                                                      ELC  K plane
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Eric
The above was what I got when I ran the numbers on  my setup Katana w/ PA 51....                   vs an ELC  K plane





   

This is the numbers  when  using a  STARIS and  Merlin 40 VS     S  ECL  Plane

            Moment (contribution to CG), inch-oz   162.25               Moment (contribution to CG), inch-oz   230.6         
            Moment of inertia about CG, inch2-ozm   1853.84               Moment of inertia about CG, inch2-ozm   2462.09         
                                                      STARIS                                                                                          S-Plane ECL.


Randy


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