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Author Topic: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power  (Read 14264 times)

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #100 on: June 24, 2013, 10:48:28 PM »
Hi Sparky 
I am not using the 1.5 inch horns  either,    I use  1.25 inch  on both  35  and 65  sized airplanes. Using the 1.5 inch slows down my controls too  much, and I would have to move the output hole out farther on the bellcrank to compensate.

Randy

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2013, 10:50:40 PM »
Hi Sparky  
I am not using the 1.5 inch horns  either,    I use  1.25 inch  on both  35  and 65  sized airplanes. Using the 1.5 inch slows down my controls too  much, and I would have to move the output hole out farther on the bellcrank to compensate.

Randy

I did not say you were. I am stating how the 4 inch bell crank came to being. It came into existence because of trim issues. Just like lowering the lead outs to be in line with the pipe. Whats good for one setup is not always best for something totally diffrent.

I know the definition of insanity and I don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting diffrent results. So I am headed a diffrent direction. Not to say I could not make it work with IC cause I have in the past.

The feel I am looking for will be reached by lighter power planting.

I am looking to drop at least 4 more oz off the next plane. The new setup will be a AXI 2826/12 and a 10 OZ TP 5 cell battery. That cuts 2.5 more oz off the nose. If I did nothing else to my plane it would drop gross weight to 57 OZ but on the next one I need to find a few more OZ to cut. I WILL NOTICE a performance change from where I am at now.
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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2013, 11:05:43 PM »
I did not say you were. I am stating how the 4 inch bell crank came to being. It came into existence because of trim issues. Just like lowering the lead outs to be in line with the pipe. Whats good for one setup is not always best for something totally diffrent.

I know the definition of insanity and I don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting diffrent results. So I am headed a diffrent direction. Not to say I could not make it work with IC cause I have in the past.



I did not say you said that, I was agreeing with you, There was no way you could have known what I used, thus my post giving the info. This was not a jab or an argument, simply information.  I use 1.25 inch horns, not because of any trim issues, either horns nor bellcranks, The leadouts  ,as you stated ,were moved to keep trim perfect, on some of my ships, other use dead center of the tip. It is important that it is on the Vert CG.
And sure you could make it work with IC, and even better as you could have a lower moment of inertia with a super light IC setup.

Randy

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2013, 11:18:06 PM »
And sure you could make it work with IC,and even better as you could have a lower moment of inertia with a super light IC setup.

Randy

Well this is my last post on this subject. I had a 48 oz piped plane and it DID NOT feel like this one. This years plane is 10 OZ heavier at 58. So if your saying that my IC was lighter on the nose it did not feel like it. It had the same feeling I have been fighting for the last 20 years. It also had a shorter nose same tail moment as I am flying now. Approx same wing area. I had also converted it to Electric before crashing it. It crashed due to mechanical failure. My mistake in poor retro fitting the fire wall.

This being said on how it equates into handle feel if this has higher numbers it don't feel like it of act like it.

All the numbers on paper and all the speculation mean nothing. What means something to me is how it feels.
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #104 on: June 25, 2013, 12:13:31 AM »
I am stating how the 4 inch bell crank came to being. It came into existence because of trim issues. Just like lowering the lead outs to be in line with the pipe.
 

Well, one of the first to campaign the idea of 4" bellcranks was Bob Baron who in turn, was a disciple of Bill Netzeband's work.  Baron successfully campaigned his Avanti II which was one of the first, if not the first plans published showing a 4" bellcrank  (FM, Feb 81).  The reason for the larger bellcrank was to reduce control system loads for the flap and elevator deflections necessary for the desired turns.  Something about the so called Netzeband Wall.  It had nothing to do with trimming a nose heavy model.

I guess, however, it stands to reason if the model is trimmed nose heavy, it will take more control force to turn a corner and a larger bellcrank will help reduce the forces needed to do so.  Nevertheless, a larger bellcrank has its advantages, even if the model is not trimmed nose heavy for whatever reason desired by its pilot.

And leadouts need to be properly oriented to the vertical CG of the model, not necessarily dependent on the position of the tuned pipe.

Just saying.

Keith

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #105 on: June 25, 2013, 01:08:34 AM »
You are flying an airplane on the end of lines made springy both by elasticity and sag due to drag.  The less the lines move per degree of control deflection and the lighter the airplane, the more effect the line springiness has, and the drag part gets really nonlinear and yucky near the Netzeband Wall.  I wrote a program to calculate this stuff a year or so ago.  I'll write it up one of these days.  Although I can't show you numbers yet without some effort, I think that a big, light stunt plane with a 3" bellcrank that doesn't move much relative to the flaps will be difficult to fly accurately. 
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #106 on: June 25, 2013, 05:58:06 AM »
I have not written a paper nor do I have a program or math equation to prove my theory. All I have is the last 20 years of building all sorts of airplanes that have the same thing in common. I know how the input at the handle feels. Some say the electric has a number of inertia that is higher than IC. OK great I am not flying the paper.

I think that the sound barrier was impenetrable too by math at one time.So just because its written doen't make it so.

With only a high school education, he was challenged by the advanced academics but managed to graduate.“Because of my flying ability,” he later explained “they took mercy on my academics.” In June 1947 Colonel Boyd made one of the most important decisions of his career when he chose one of his most junior test pilots to attempt to become the first person to exceed the speed of sound in the rocket-powered Bell XS-1. He chose Yeager because he considered him the best “instinctive” pilot he had ever seen and he had demonstrated an extraordinary capacity to remain calm and focused in stressful situations. The X-1 program certainly promised to be stressful; many EXPERTS believed the so-called “sound barrier” was impenetrable. Yeager and the rest of the small Air Force test team met at Muroc in late July.
 
After three glide flights in the Bell XS-1 rocket research plane which he named Glamorous Glennis, he flew it to a speed of 0.85 Mach on his first powered flight on 29 August. He encountered severe buffeting and sudden nose-up and -down trim changes during his next six flights. Then, during his eighth flight on 10 Oct., he lost pitch control altogether, as a shock wave formed along the hingeline of the X-1 elevator. He reached Mach 0.997 but without pitch control it would have been foolhardy to proceed. The X-1 had been designed with a moving horizontal tail and Capt Jack Ridley convinced Yeager that by changing its angle of incidence in small increments, he could control the craft without having to rely on the elevator. This had never been attempted at extremely high speeds but Yeager was game to give it a try on the next flight.

On 14 Oct. he dropped away from the B-29, fired all four chambers of his engine in rapid sequence and bolted away from the launch aircraft. Accelerating upward, he shut down two chambers and tested the moveable tail as his Machmeter registered numbers of 0.83, .88 and 0.92. Moved in small increments, it provided effective control. He reached an indicated Mach number of 0.92 as he leveled out at 42,000 feet and relit a third chamber of his engine. The X-1 Glamorous Glennis rapidly accelerated to 0.98 Mach and then, at 43,000 feet, the needle on his Machmeter jumped off the scale.
 
Chuck Yeager had just crossed the invisible threshold to flight faster than the speed of sound. He attained a top speed of Mach 1.06 (700 mph). When Yeager’s achievement was finally declassified in June of 1948, he was quickly accorded celebrity status as “The Fastest Man Alive,” and was awarded the most prestigious honors in aviation. The words accompanying the Collier Trophy aptly summarized the magnitude of his flight: “This is an epochal achievement in the history of world aviation–the greatest since the first successful flight of the original Wright Brothers’ airplane, forty-five years ago.”
 Good thing these guys didnt know about the Netzban wall.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 06:25:18 AM by Robert Storick »
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #107 on: June 25, 2013, 06:06:36 AM »
You are flying an airplane on the end of lines made springy both by elasticity and sag due to drag.  The less the lines move per degree of control deflection and the lighter the airplane, the more effect the line springiness has, and the drag part gets really nonlinear and yucky near the Netzeband Wall.  I wrote a program to calculate this stuff a year or so ago.  I'll write it up one of these days.  Although I can't show you numbers yet without some effort, I think that a big, light stunt plane with a 3" bellcrank that doesn't move much relative to the flaps will be difficult to fly accurately. 

I don't need a program to tell me that, just a little common sense.

Small hand movement = Big control surface movement = bad.

And the elasticity, sag, and drag is greatly reduced by using solids.

Derek

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #108 on: June 25, 2013, 06:13:05 AM »
I don't need a program to tell me that, just a little common sense.
 Derek

common sense Key factor
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #109 on: June 25, 2013, 10:57:57 AM »
I don't need a program to tell me that, just a little common sense.

Having no common sense myself, I resort to calculation.  Gary Letsinger, from whom I learn something every time I talk to him, said (approximately), "The most important thing you get from calculation is insight, not answers."    This line stretchiness exercise has been pretty revealing so far, but I have more work to do.  Meanwhile, I'm putting a 5" bellcrank in my next dog, and it will move through a big angle. 
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #110 on: June 25, 2013, 11:01:40 AM »
I have not written a paper nor do I have a program or math equation to prove my theory.

Why do you constantly tell us this?


...Capt Jack Ridley convinced Yeager that by changing its angle of incidence in small increments, he could control the craft without having to rely on the elevator. This had never been attempted at extremely high speeds but Yeager was game to give it a try on the next flight....

A little tidbit for you here…

From Wikipedia…

“Colonel Jackie Linwood "Jack" Ridley (June 16, 1915 – March 12, 1957) was an aeronautical engineer, USAF test pilot and chief of the air force's Flight Test Engineering Laboratory. He helped develop and test many cold war era military aircraft but is best known for his work on the Bell X-1, the first aircraft to achieve supersonic flight. He was highly respected among fellow test pilots, most notably Chuck Yeager, for his engineering skills.”

Me again,

When Capt Ridley told Yeager what to do next he was getting that from his aeronautical engineering and ability to understand what was going on during the flight based on Yeager’s description by his feel. One of the main factors as to why Chuck Yeager was so successful on that world record setting flight, and many others, was because he and the engineers worked together.  They listened and trusted him with their design and he trusted them with his life.  They worked together. Yeager, an exceptional pilot with great feel and instinct, told him what he was feeling.  They, the engineers, figured out what was happening and then told him how to combat the issue with the built in features of the aircraft.

Chuck didn’t just blow off the “smart” guys because they weren’t in the plane and holding the stick.  He listened, trusted, and applied what they said and BOOM the sound barrier was broken….
 
The same can be done here in CLPA, I know because I have done it.  I learned about moment of inertia a long time ago due to a Saito powered model with a short moment and what it was telling me was happening.  I described what I was feeling at the handle and laid out the particulars of the setup.  The engineers on the board at the time broke down what was happening and why I was feeling what I was feeling.  There were several opinions about what was going on.  There were several ideas to try.  With ONE change the model became one of the best flying planes I have ever built, that includes last year’s winner.  That one change enforced the opinion that it was the moment of inertia in this case that was causing the issue.  Their postings also helped me to understand why the other changes I had made did not in fact work. I was also wondering if the smart math guys were getting beaten to death by my questions and descriptions after flight tests.  But I forged ahead until I had some very SMALL amount of understanding of the subject.

This is not some battle about who is right and who is wrong.  That’s proven on the circle.  It’s an exchange of information about an activity we all love to participate in together.  Tossing the win or lose attitude and setting one’s mind to understanding “why” I feel what I feel on the handle will only yield further successes in the future.  Refusing to try can severely limits one success as they may think something is causing the “feeling” they are receiving on the handle but in fact it is another opposing reason all together and the same problem may be built right into the next model.

Had I not chosen to ask the “EXPERTS” what the issue was, and stayed with it until I understood what they were telling me, there is no way I would have found the solution to my problem. I was looking at another hanger queen at that point, and months of wasted time and energy. I was simply not looking in the right spot as the feeling was telling me one thing but my limited understanding of the issue at that point was telling me to look somewhere else to cure my problem.  
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #111 on: June 25, 2013, 11:59:47 AM »
Having no common sense myself, I resort to calculation.  Gary Letsinger, from whom I learn something every time I talk to him, said (approximately), "The most important thing you get from calculation is insight, not answers."    This line stretchiness exercise has been pretty revealing so far, but I have more work to do.  Meanwhile, I'm putting a 5" bellcrank in my next dog, and it will move through a big angle. 

 That is a very good quote, unfortunately I am just too lazy to put that much effort into understanding the "why".

Did you test solids or just braids?

5" bellcrank.   WOW!

Derek

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #112 on: June 25, 2013, 12:05:09 PM »
I haven't measured solids yet, but I want to.  I was arranging to borrow some to measure, but I got distracted painting a stunt plane or something. 
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #113 on: June 25, 2013, 12:15:26 PM »
I haven't measured solids yet, but I want to.  I was arranging to borrow some to measure, but I got distracted painting a stunt plane or something. 

You have a new one on the paint stand? In only one year's time? I don't believe it.

Derek

Before the fire we had a 5000' roll of stainless solids. I would have been more than happy to donate some in the name of science. Not sure if I have any old lines hanging around any more. I use the carbon steel now I wonder if there is any difference in the two when it comes to strength.

Derek

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #114 on: June 25, 2013, 12:20:08 PM »
Back to inertia:

Just a quick thought.

There are almost literally thousands of examples of CL aircraft that display exactly the parameters that Chris, Robert and others are discussing.  Mass and CG concentrated in almost exactly the same place with wing loadings as close to zero as is likely possible.  

They're called combat ships.  The fuel cell right on the CG and the motive force pushed back as close to it as possible.  The two units, power and fuel, probably comprise...what, Howard, 60% or more of the total TOGW?

Yup, they turn on a dime but pretty much need to have that streamer trailing behind to be even remotely capable of precision maneuvers.

Is this the future of stunt design envisioned by the event's leaders in the amp/ohm era?  Not trying to be snarky here, it's just the most logical destination of the train Sparky is conducting.

Ted

One thing I noticed when I first flew a good stunt plane was that it's a lot easier to fly stunt with than a combat plane is.  

Actually, I don't think that's the destination of Sparky's train.  I pick on you and Robert when you get the theory backward, but experiment leads you in the right direction, and I suspect that it's leading Robert in the right direction.  There may well be an optimal moment of inertia for a given stunter, and maybe it's not the minimum.  

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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #115 on: June 25, 2013, 12:30:56 PM »
Back to inertia:

  There may well be an optimal moment of inertia for a given stunter, and maybe it's not the minimum.  



Bingo!

Derek

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #116 on: June 25, 2013, 12:40:50 PM »
You have a new one on the paint stand? In only one year's time? I don't believe it.

Derek

Before the fire we had a 5000' roll of stainless solids. I would have been more than happy to donate some in the name of science. Not sure if I have any old lines hanging around any more. I use the carbon steel now I wonder if there is any difference in the two when it comes to strength.

Derek

Yes the carbon steel ones are stronger

Randy

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #117 on: June 25, 2013, 12:53:36 PM »
Well this is my last post on this subject. I had a 48 oz piped plane and it DID NOT feel like this one. This years plane is 10 OZ heavier at 58. So if your saying that my IC was lighter on the nose it did not feel like it. It had the same feeling I have been fighting for the last 20 years. It also had a shorter nose same tail moment as I am flying now. Approx same wing area. I had also converted it to Electric before crashing it. It crashed due to mechanical failure. My mistake in poor retro fitting the fire wall.

This being said on how it equates into handle feel if this has higher numbers it don't feel like it of act like it.

All the numbers on paper and all the speculation mean nothing. What means something to me is how it feels.


I agree on the light part, my planes of the size you have are 48 to 54 ounces in weight at the same size or larger  (640 to 655 sq in.), and they had 8 to 9 ounce motors in them, used 4.7 to 5 ounces of fuel, very light weight ahead of the CG.  Maybe one of the lightest planes I have seen in a while, other than Scott Bair's, was Contrata's   SATONA, and at 48 ounces  it had a very low moment of inertia... I will also say the same plane has flown extremely well  at 54 and  60 ounces!!   The 60 ounce  version  had a blinding corner.
I can tell you this, using very fast controls on the  exact same plane results in a "totally"  different airplane, in how it feels and how it flys. And does feel like it has a very fast "combat plane"  turn to it.
I did not say  your  ic ship was lighter at the nose, No way I could know that for sure, but mine of the same approx size  are. Using the IC motors..2 of these used mufflers, not pipes, 1 can use either.
At any rate, you know what you want, and what you need to do to get it,,and I will be waiting to see how this program progresses, It will be informative and interesting to say the least. I will see part of it at the NATs  this year.

Randy

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #118 on: June 25, 2013, 01:03:37 PM »
one other thought  the moment of inertia,  weight of the nose of any airplane  means  squat  if you do not  consider  the opposite end... wing area etc...  in other words  you can put a ultra light 5 ounce motor in the nose, and use the same stab elev. and moment of a Dolphin... the 12 ounce battery at the rear bulkhead will kill it.
Plane design has to take into account  the entire matrix of the stunter. and the design needs to be optimized  for that, instead of worrying about only 1 thing.
I do much the same when I design a plane that is to use an 11 ounce motor, and ones that are to use 7 , 8 , or 9 ounce motors.

My opinion, other may well  vary  8)   which is  OK  with me

Randy

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #119 on: June 25, 2013, 01:35:48 PM »
Plane design has to take into account  the entire matrix of the stunter. and the design needs to be optimized  for that, instead of worrying about only 1 thing.

I spent a decade trying to convice people of that for airliners.  I had only limited success.
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #120 on: June 25, 2013, 01:37:40 PM »
I do not expect much at the NATS as I have had only but a few flights this year. Went out this morning and it was a Gail wind. So what ever happens happens.


I agree on the light part, my planes of the size you have are 48 to 54 ounces in weight at the same size or larger  (640 to 655 sq in.), and they had 8 to 9 ounce motors in them, used 4.7 to 5 ounces of fuel, very light weight ahead of the CG.

Well a PA .65 dont weigh 8-9 oz it weighs 11.7 less header less pipe. If it weighed 6.5 I would use it. Of coarse I am wrong as always.
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #121 on: June 25, 2013, 01:53:15 PM »
They called Tesla a nut and he talked to the wall Just as I am doing here. Have fun with spread sheets numbers and theory's. If you don't build a lot of models in diffrent configurations you will not get the feeling first hand. Once again I am not saying Electric is better. All I have ever tried to say in the last 10 years is that the baseline characteristics are set in weight and all the figures and graphs and opinions will not change that fact.

People are so closed mind its has become a waste of time to express this. Weight don't matter so build it heavy please.
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #122 on: June 25, 2013, 02:00:12 PM »
Robert,

You said somewhere in this thread the planes of recent past have not given you the "feel" you want but the new rig is going in the right direction as far as feel goes.

If you don't mind my asking, what is the "feel" you are after?  Can you describe it?
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #123 on: June 25, 2013, 02:02:57 PM »
Robert,

You said somewhere in this thread the planes of recent past have not given you the "feel" you want but the new rig is going in the right direction as far as feel goes.

If you don't mind my asking, what is the "feel" you are after?  Can you describe it?

The tug in the nose is gone. And please don't try to tell me its how is set up. Cause its not that its the concentrated weight behind the spinner.
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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #124 on: June 25, 2013, 02:03:51 PM »
I do not expect much at the NATS as I have had only but a few flights this year. Went out this morning and it was a Gail wind. So what ever happens happens.

Well a PA .65 dont weigh 8-9 oz it weighs 11.7 less header less pipe. If it weighed 6.5 I would use it. Of coarse I am wrong as always.

Never said it did, but I do have planes in them with 8 ounce 64s,  8 ounce  54s, 7.9 ounce 36s, 8.5 ounce  74s and many other very light motors. I also have a pretty light 88, and  a  light 91
My point was about  the entire matrix of a stuntship needs to be taken into account, and by the  way I do not like the tug in the nose...my planes do not have that, they turn very easy, stop instantly and are very easy to turn, many people like Eric, Curt, Derek , Billy and others have flown my planes

Randy

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #125 on: June 25, 2013, 02:06:13 PM »
I am tired do it any way you want.
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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #126 on: June 25, 2013, 02:09:36 PM »
When the IC weight comes down under 9 OZ that feeling will start to go away.

My planes do not not have that feeling  with my 7.9 IC , 8 ounce IC   10 ounce IC or  11.25 IC engines, so fortunately for me I am not fighting that.

Randy

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #127 on: June 25, 2013, 02:14:13 PM »
 HB~> HB~> I'm done  HB~> HB~>
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Hind sight Topic: CG discussions for IC/E power
« Reply #128 on: June 25, 2013, 09:57:22 PM »
I would suggest building a simple model...an HLG...with a replaceable nose. One short with a lot of weight, and one long with a little weight. Same CG for both. See which one flies better at the same total weight. I'm really not sure what the results will be, but I know what the engineers into free flight said would happen.  H^^ Steve
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