District 1-2 and 3 our contest are DYING WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING.

[ChrisSarnowski]

I think we had 16 at the Mass Cup, and 24 at the Lee contest.

Lee had a good representation from District 2, about 8 guys.

As far as experts go, I think Mass Cup had 5, and Lee had 9.

I think the Philly Flyers saw similar numbers for the July contest (18 PAMPA).

Quick count on the Jim Coll PAMPA scores looks like about 28.

I didn't see any scores posted for NJ.

What do you consider Light vs Well attended?

I think our goal is a good mix from D1/D2/D3.

-Chris

[Dennis Moritz]

I love this idea. Let's do it. We need to make lists of competitors. All classes. Emails of those willing to be included. We'll figure out where and when.

[William DeMauro]

"Come to Philly our contest is viable. The Flushing location is intimidating to many. I can't even get my Philly friends to say hello on the LES (Lower East Side of Manhattan). Not a single one willing to face the Holland Tunnel."
THIS NONSENSE HAS TO STOP!!! There are many ways to get to the Flushing contest without going through Manhattan. I myself always drive around it, usually through Brooklyn or the Bronx. I am in Queens less than 5 miles from the Flushing fields. Like Jose said they are in great neighborhoods. The only reason I haven't attended your contest and others is due to scheduling conflicts or work. The cost and distance per person is the same, whether I come to you or you come to me. Flushing is not a WARZONE like some people make it out to be!!! You can enter and leave with both your life and hubcaps!! Bring your family too. They will also survive. I've even had my dog at Flushing and he is also still alive.
Jose, I am with you on this and we all need to work together to make this happen. We ALL need to make the EXTRA effort to support each other in 2014. ALL the bickering amongst ourselves and other clubs  and their members must STOP!!! SOULUTION'S WILL NOT BE FOUND IN THIS WAY!!!!

[Dennis Moritz]

William. Folks don't think it's a war zone. They are not reacting to the neighborhoods. It's the density of traffic, aggressive driving necessary to make it through, and so forth. A lot of people are intimidated by NYC. Ask around at the NATs. I have. I am shocked by the many who have never been to NY. I'm amazed by people's attitudes in Philadelphia. Most members of my club have not been in NYC more than five or six times. If that many. I live in both cities. I tell people take this bus, that bus, take the cheap commuter train, I tell them when to drive in to avoid the traffic, if they are so inclined. It's a hundred miles away. Two hours up the turnpike. I have been a member of the Philly Flyers for around 15 years. No one has taken me up on my offer to hang out on the LES. I paint a pretty picture of what is offered. I don't think it's me. Some Philly Flyers even seem to like me.

[Dennis Moritz]

Maybe we can rent a commuter van.

[Mike Keville]

8.5 years ago, while moving from Maine to Tucson, I drove the I-95 trail down thru Mass., Conn. and  NYC, crossing the G.W. Bridge to the N.J. Turnpike and on south to I-20 West.

The merge thru NYC was kinda' scary, though I must admit that other drivers seemed rather courteous (probably saw the Maine plates and cut me some slack), and the transition was relatively painless...except for the G.W. bridge toll.

Granted, some of the passing neighborhoods looked a bit scary, and I was very thankful the van didn't break down.

All-in-all, not a bad transit.

But then, I had lived in the L.A. area for many years.  You think NYC traffic is scary?      

[Howard Rush]

Drifting further off topic, I, too, found NYC motorists courteous, although I haven't driven there for a few decades.  I once broke down in the left lane of the GW bridge and had to push the car to the right shoulder.  Everybody waited for me. 

[Mike Keville]

Contrary to the expected stereotypes, it's been my experience that NY/NJ folks are very kind and helpful.  But then, I'm originally from New Jersey.

(We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.)

Maybe . . .

[Dennis Moritz]

Maybe we could challenge people's manhood. 

[55chevr]

Dennis,

You missed the point of the original posting.  It doesn't have to be in NYC.  The posting suggested scheduling organized contests in the District 1,2,3 and coordinating the dates to create a competition circuit. 



Joe

[Dennis Moritz]

Right.

I like the idea a lot. Let's collect names and emails of potential competitors who are interested.

[jose modesto]

MY IMAGINED STUNT TRIP NERVANA STUNT.

Imagine this trip to the STUNT IN THE BERKSHIRES.
 1) Custom travel BUS last 3 rows removed for the models storage.
Saturday 7am pick up at designated place were you leave your vehicle. snack and Champaine for the ride to the field. Field arrival 10:30 am
2) We go flying. Saturday is a practice day, with model trimming and pattern coaching, by Bob Hunt,Windy U, Bill Suarez,Dan Banjock etc.
Part B is our significant others have a Spa and wine tasting at local vineyards. Guys I have a plan. They Get the bus for the day.
Dinner Sat Night with more wine. 7:30 to 9pm we will have dinner as a large group including invites to all participants. There are large restaurant that can accommodate 25+ After wine and spa and more wine at dinner I just set you guys for a good night
SUNDAY contest day.The bus brings us to the field by 8am.Breakfast catered at the field.(local restaurant.) We should recruit the Women to run the contest,tabulation,score running,the pits,score posting. remember they know how to run a bunch of men.
For this we guys get STUNT NERVANA. Two days of flying trimming competing and keeping each other company and our other half is happy and involved.
Jose Modesto

Sunday Morning catered Breakfast

[Mike Palko]

Jose,

Forgive me if I repeat or ask something previously answered. I didn't read the entire thread.

Rather than reinventing the wheel I would be all for adopting the Northwest format. After following their format for a year we can make changes to fit the Northeast if needed. Or, if it discouraged people for one reason or another we could drop the system entirely. I think something that would add to the format would be a perpetual trophy. Maybe the Northwest already does this?

Below is a list of contests I go to or try to go to.  I know you suggested at least two others, Flushing and Stunt in the Berkshire, so there are quite a few to pick from. A quick run through of the Northwest format makes me thing they include all contests which is the best idea in my opinion.

GSCB – June Stunt Meet
GSCB – Fall Airshow
Bergen County Controline Flyers
Brodaks
Philly Fliers
Jim Coll Memorial
N.E.V.R.C.
Middlesex

As others mentioned each club would have to be contacted to gauge interest. If the interest isn't there I can't see moving forward with the idea. I would hate to see those who still attend contests be discouraged and resort to only sport flying.

Mike 

[Rog Strickler]

Hi Guys,
I guess I'll ad my two cents here. Akron, Oh. I can remember on any given Sunday 20 to 25 flyers line up to fly. (That was 50 years ago) The Akron Skymasters and The North Coast Control Liners (Cleveland, Oh) just had their combined meet September 21 and 22. Weather wasn't great but we got off our annual contest. Total entrants 13. When it comes to having a great site, we have it. Three asphalt circles, one grass circle and room for more. The NCCL guys have a carrier deck we can lay down on one of the asphalt circles. Two of the asphalt circles have a speed pylon.  All of the circles have painted outlines. The Akron Skymasters  are located just off Interstate 77 at the Akron Canton Airport. We are supported by The MAPS Air Museum. We have no muffler regulations. We have adequate parking for visitors and contestants. Take a minute and visit----  https://sites.google.com/a/mapsairmuseum.org/skymasters/ When I hear that Dist III doesn't have an adequate location, I cringe. Hotels, Motels,  Restaurants, Football Hall of Fame and I can go on. Ask Bob Hunt, Bud Weider, Scott Reynolds, Bob McDonald or Bill Werwage (just dropping names here) about our site. I believe that The Akron Skymasters  can offer everything that is required for a control line contest and, with a little help from our friends, make it as fine as anywhere in the country. IMHO.

Rog Strickler Pres. The Akron Skymasters 

[Steve Helmick]

FYI, the NW system does indeed have a champion's trophy, and all contests in the district (and BC) count, as long as they are sanctioned by either the AMA or MAAC. I don't think each "champ" gets a trophy, just the Vintage Stunt champ (Classic and OTS points combined), but an email to John Thompson will get the answer quickly, if that matters to you. I think what you are interested in is promoting Precision Aerobatics, but with enough interest, there's no reason not to have an individual trophy for Classic and OTS as well.  AMA makes very nice plaques for about $30 each.  Steve

[Mike Palko]

Hi Guys,
I guess I'll ad my two cents here. Akron, Oh. I can remember on any given Sunday 20 to 25 flyers line up to fly. (That was 50 years ago) The Akron Skymasters and The North Coast Control Liners (Cleveland, Oh) just had their combined meet September 21 and 22. Weather wasn't great but we got off our annual contest. Total entrants 13. When it comes to having a great site, we have it. Three asphalt circles, one grass circle and room for more. The NCCL guys have a carrier deck we can lay down on one of the asphalt circles. Two of the asphalt circles have a speed pylon.  All of the circles have painted outlines. The Akron Skymasters  are located just off Interstate 77 at the Akron Canton Airport. We are supported by The MAPS Air Museum. We have no muffler regulations. We have adequate parking for visitors and contestants. Take a minute and visit----  https://sites.google.com/a/mapsairmuseum.org/skymasters/ When I hear that Dist III doesn't have an adequate location, I cringe. Hotels, Motels,  Restaurants, Football Hall of Fame and I can go on. Ask Bob Hunt, Bud Weider, Scott Reynolds, Bob McDonald or Bill Werwage (just dropping names here) about our site. I believe that The Akron Skymasters  can offer everything that is required for a control line contest and, with a little help from our friends, make it as fine as anywhere in the country. IMHO.

Rog Strickler Pres. The Akron Skymasters 

I think Jose's idea is to put a new spin on Precision Aerobatics in the Northeast in hopes that it will help gain interest or rekindle the fire for those still involved. I don't believe the quality of the flying sites is the problem. If the flying sites are the problem then we know how to save the hobby!

Mike

[55chevr]

There are a couple of issues that have to be resolved.  One contest in each district was the original concept.  3 districts and there was some interest from northern Virginia so it could be 4.  Dates have to function away from holidays (Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day). Flying season is 5 months long, so 4 contests shouldn't pose a challenge.  There is Brodak's and the Nat's to schedule around also.  Venues are the last part.  I see the biggest issue as the coordination of the schedule.

Joe

[Mike Palko]

FYI, the NW system does indeed have a champion's trophy, and all contests in the district (and BC) count, as long as they are sanctioned by either the AMA or MAAC. I don't think each "champ" gets a trophy, just the Vintage Stunt champ (Classic and OTS points combined), but an email to John Thompson will get the answer quickly, if that matters to you. I think what you are interested in is promoting Precision Aerobatics, but with enough interest, there's no reason not to have an individual trophy for Classic and OTS as well.  AMA makes very nice plaques for about $30 each.  Steve

I think the intent is to start with Precision Aerobatics. If the interest is there then Classic and OTS could also follow the format. Jose?

To be honest I have no interest in trophy's at local contests. If I go to a contest and have a good time I am a winner. If I take first place I go home with bragging rights. If I take home a trophy it goes in the box in the basement. If it were up to me clubs could do away with trophy's. If they want to reward pilots (or pilots want to be rewarded) they can give $15 for first place, $10 for second place and $5 for third place. Or something to that effect. That format would reduce the work load and give a couple guys lunch or toll money.

I am not saying all trophy's should go away. There are several perpetual trophy's in the Northeast that are very important to the hobby and hold a lot of history.

Mike

[Mike Palko]

There are a couple of issues that have to be resolved.  One contest in each district was the original concept.  3 districts and there was some interest from northern Virginia so it could be 4.  Dates have to function away from holidays (Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day). Flying season is 5 months long, so 4 contests shouldn't pose a challenge.  There is Brodak's and the Nat's to schedule around also.  Venues are the last part.  I see the biggest issue as the coordination of the schedule.

Joe

I think excluding the majority of the clubs would hurt more than it would help.

The best chance for success is in the tri-state area (PA, NJ, NY). Most contests for most competitors are within a 2 hour drive. Spreading out three contests over hundreds of miles would be counterproductive. Four contests over an even greater distance would be worse yet. Would the Massachusetts fliers or Northern Virginia fliers attend enough contests to be competitive for the win? They are on the outer fringes of the circuit so they would be doing most of the traveling.

If all of the contests are included I would be open to any distance knowing lost ground can be made up. I don't expect any one person to attend all of the contests and runaway with the win based on attendance.

Mike

[jose modesto]

Hey Mike P. good to hear from you on this topic. My intention is to use the existing contest in our area (about 12) and select four a year that we as a community would support as major contest. Boston is 4 hours north and Maryland is four hours southfrom me NYC.  Somewhere in jersey is the midpoint for the majority of our guys. If we aver evolve to a regional event format than jersey/Pa would be ideal.
mike in your selection you eliminated D1 contest. What my intention,is to keep the contest in D1 and on a rotating basis for us a community would attend.
 With 12 to select from we can surely select a meet in each district to attend. If you can attend all twelve contest that would be great.
If we select four the other 8 contest will go on as scheduled and attendance is the responsibility of the hosting club.
You can have NYC club supporting Philly and Philly in return would support NYC. ( we will go to yours if you came to my contest.
Our NYC contest can easily be supported by our members and the GSCB with these two clubs our meet would be well attended if the criteria is 30 entrants we can meet that goal.
Jose Modesto

[Bob Hudak]

Here's a map(for educational purpose) so everyone knows where Districts 1,2&3 are. I like the idea of a regional contest circuit and would put in my best effort to hit all 3 (or 4). Don't turn it into a tri state event. New Jersey is not the center of Ohio. As far as needing a site for District 3, I believe Roger Strickler has made the offer in Akron,Ohio for a site to host future District 3 contests. As far as adding more Districts to the mix I say leave it as a 3 District event, You got the NATS for the other stuff. When do we vote on the 3 District locations this regional contest is going to be featured at?
           Bob

[Jim Damerell]

In the mean time, while a bunch of people who mostly have not been to a contest outside their area in the last two years, decide what is wrong, The GSCB is meeting in two weeks to abolish all contests. One or two may remain, all else will be changed to fun fly's. Do you all think there is something left to save?

[jose modesto]

Bob thanks for the map as I look at the map we should make it D1-2-3 and four. My original mistake in thinkingnthat Maryland,Delaware and Virginia were D3
This is even Better.Ohio,NJ, Mass and Maryland. As the first four with Brodack as the wild card 5th Contest.
This will give us a West Ohio. North mass. Central NJ south Maryland or Virginia  Everyone travels and we support one contest in each district.
NYC and jersey could alternate from year to year. As the central contest.
Guys the travel Bus can work as a group ride to Ohio or Maryland. Leave the driving to some one else. We just have to agree to an itinerary before trip.
My first four contest with wild card
1) NJ early June Brodack 3rd week June
2) stunt in the Berkshire august
3) Maryland
4) Ohio
Jose Modesto

[Mike Palko]

In the mean time, while a bunch of people who mostly have not been to a contest outside their area in the last two years, decide what is wrong, The GSCB is meeting in two weeks to abolish all contests. One or two may remain, all else will be changed to fun fly's. Do you all think there is something left to save?

This is the exact reason I suggested the tri-state area.

Of course there is something to save, that's not even a question.

If the contests are already being voted against then this is too little too late.

Mike

[55chevr]

Only need 4 contests a year for this proposal.  One in each district.  GSCB need only to put on one if this is something they want to support.  Actually the entire district needs only 1. 

[ChrisSarnowski]

We are down to 2 contests in District 1, plus 2 fun-flys. Our 2 contests are the Mass Cup and Stunt in the Berkshires, which are less than a month apart. I would like to see us bring back a springtime contest. We used to have a summer contest, but I think folks decided it was too hot.

Personally, I like the NJ contests and would hate to see them go. I didn't make any this year due to other commitments plus a busy combat schedule.
Please keep as many NJ contests as you can!!

-Chris

[Rog Strickler]

Gentlemen,
One thing that I haven't seen addressed here is one of the fundamental problems.  "District 1-2 and 3 our contest are DYING  WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING." It's not only the contests that are dying, the contestants are dying and we are not replacing them. As you look around the flying fields, we see gray haired old men. They out number the youth by more than 10 to 1. I don't have the answer for " WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING." In our club we have lost so many members to health problems that it scares me. Can any of you tell me that you have recruited as  many young flyers as you have lost to old age? If so, please tell us how. The biggest problem that I see is how to get the wheel chairs, walkers, and O2 machines to the fields. I'm not trying to be morbid or sarcastic but I believe that it's a lot easier to get young people to travel to the events.  I do believe that if we can recruit the youth the contest attendance would not be a problem at all. I am not trying to discourage any attempt to promote activity, in fact our club is in the process of totally reorganizing what, where, and how we are going to operate this coming year. We are very aware that what we have been doing is NOT working. I'm sure you have heard that old saying "You cannot continue doing the same thing over and over and expect different results". Somehow we must kindle a fire in a younger group of participants. We have recruited old retreads  back to the fields but that fuel is diminishing rapidly and the fire is going to die just like you and I. I think a more productive thread would be "HOW TO GET MORE YOUTH FLYING CONTROL LINE". Frankly, I feel events directed at recruiting youth would be far more valuable than how can we more "old guys" to show up. This is from one of the "old guys" . I'm 73 and I know that I'm slowing down.

Rog Strickler Pres . The Akron Skymasters

[Bob Hudak]

Boy oh boy Rog,
 You really know how to tug at the heart strings. I did a bit of soul searching after your post,now I am taking a different plan of  action. I just pulled the Baby Clown ARF out of the rafters to assemble for this summer to train my grandson and nephew. Al Brikhaus has 6 fledglings under his tutor and they look likely to be the next contestants for his district. I will build District 3 from the bottom up.
               Bob

[55chevr]

Some truth to the aged flying force in control line.   We are getting some new young flyers ... Will's son Kevin is 17 and very experienced Nats flyer.  My son Joe is 39 and he is teaching his 2 oldest sons. Joseph 10 and Steve 9.  Dwight's son is about 10 so we have some young blood but not nearly enough.

[ChrisSarnowski]

Well, before this thread fades into oblivion, we should all agree to share information and try to coordinate contest schedules.

This way we can say we put some effort into getting the different groups to attend each others contests.

Hopefully we can get something good to happen!!!

-Chris

[Jim Damerell]

This is the time of year clubs get together and plan next years schedule. With two clubs that I know of planning to vote on NO CONTESTS, we need to contact the people that have run contests, and PLEDGE TO SUPPORT THEM next year! If we convince them their will be entrants, they may still have events. Thank them NOW for there efforts, and BEG them to do it again, or there will be no where to go in the future.

[jose modesto]

Chris. The district contest for  one and two are coordinated by the CD and Rich Pebody. We usually don't have any conflicts between 1 and 2. We need to incorporate 3 and 4 contest schedule.

The club presidents should share there membership list including Emails or create a master list of all club members in the four districts. The list can be used to inform and recruit flyers to your contest.
In the east all contest have been NON BOM,we need to determine this item for the combined 1-2-3and4
Let's stay positive and work on our mutual support and survival.

Jose Modesto

[Rog Strickler]

Jose,
I want to make it clear that The Akron Skymasters support what you are trying to accomplish and will support you in any way we can. We all love what we do and have for years, that's why we are still here! I have never been a contest flyer but I have been a contest supporter. (Not to be confused with an athletic supporter) That's why I have worked so hard for the MAPS flying site and the contests that we have shared with NCCL and will continue to share with them. I have talked with John Brodak about our site and he was willing to bring a scale contingent to Ohio for a contest this past year but that was before he had his health problem. I am hoping that things have improved to the point that perhaps we will incorporate the scale event in this years activities. MAPS helps us by scheduling some activities during our contests to attract more visitors and perspective flyers. Please inform any of the other clubs that have an interest in using our sight to contact me or Ray Rowh (club secy) with any questions or suggestions.

Rog Strickler Pres
Ray Rowh Secy
The Akron Skymaster Control Line Asso.

[55chevr]

I think that a well coordinated contest schedule would boost interest and will attract new flyers and rekindle the flame in old flyers.  The last contest I competed in was the the 1958 Mirror Meet.   I am willing to assist with any contest within traveling distance.   Has anyone considered contacting the PARCS club for possibly using Floyd Bennett Field for a control line contest? 

Joe

[jose modesto]

Joe. the late Hank Forbes use to get us a yearly permit to use Floyd Bennet field. Bob L,Hank,sleepy and I have used the site. All the room in the world with adjacent grass areas that can be used for combat and any other event that requires grass circles.
The challenge just like flushing is the afternoon winds.
The field is situated in Jamaica bay with plenty of nearby activities. There is also a large RC field on site were lots of guys flew CL. There are Food and restrooms on site with endless parking
 Central NJ and south NJ and PA then ride is highway all the way no city streets.
I stll prefer our site easier to control the flow of people and site is fenced.
Other activities at Floyd Bennet field. Ice skating,fishing,RC car racing track hiking,beach acces,bike tracks,soccer and footbal fields,fresh vegetables stands,ETC
There are plenty of activities for all.
Jose Modesto

[55chevr]

Any site is agreeable to me.   I flew RC at Floyd Bennett back in the early 90-s.   Big space ... I remember that the winds laid down to nil at 6 PM in the summer.   Had some excellent flying there with a good bunch of people from the PARCS club.  We could operated a dozen circles but not fenced.  I think that there is a 4000' runway in reasonable repair.  I havent seen it in 20 years.  Need to keep this forum current and get the stars alligned.  This could work out to the satisfaction of all.

Joe

[Steve Helmick]

If you have a problem getting a CD, you can probably do that by volunteering to do ALL the work, just have one to tell you what needs doing...and to sign off on the paperwork. This is a step toward getting your CD license anyway. They do make you take a written test now...mostly inappropriate questions dealing with R/C issues, such as maximum weight allowed, turbine engine waivers and that sort of stuff. But it IS an open book test. Still, I couldn't find the answer to one of the questions in the rulebook. I don't think it should be that hard to look stuff up. Maybe could be better organized!

First lesson on being a CD: When somebody objects to having their plane pull tested for the 2nd round (because it was just recently pull tested for the 1st round), just tell them that they don't have to pull test their plane if they don't want to fly in the 2nd round.  I've had to respond to this dumbass question far too many times. Remember this: Following the rules and sound contest procedures looks a lot better on the accident report.  Steve

[john gunn]

  I  do not know if this will help or not.  I have been a CD for 22 years in Texarkana Texas, it is a long trip to Dallas, and anywhere else. I had only 2 bad years.  Usual number was 15 to 18 and when Windy and Big Art were here the numbers were up very much.  I served breakfast on the grounds, both days, coffee, biscuits, gravy ,then a catered lunch,with a dinner planed Saturday night. Sometimes we had a speaker, one was a medal of honor person, the most interesting was the officer that was shot down over Germany,forced on a death march,then converted his captors to Christianity.  There is a lot of ways to attract people to your contest.  That is what I did ,had the usual prizes, raffle, then a 50-50 drawing.  I drove up to Fox  manufacturing  for fuel and a motor every year  it was fun but I will be 74 in a few weeks. Time to go play now

[Perry Rose]

I know where Stunt in the Berkshires, Brodaks and Wrentham, MA are but what are the addresses of the New York, New Jersey, Philly and WV contest sites?

 

[ChrisSarnowski]

In NY, they have contests at Flushing Meadows Corona Park, Queens, NY. See google maps.

In NJ, they have contests in Palisades Park. I am not sure of the park name, but 275 Roosevelt Ave, Palisades Park, NJ will put you near the entrance (see google maps). There is a parking lot (with painted circles) by the swimming pools.

The Garden State Circle Burners have contests in Lincoln Park, NJ. Their is on 2 Bridges Road, I have not been there but hopefully someone from the club can give better info.

-Chris

ps. Google map these coordinates: 40° 53.988', -74° 16.742'
(On 2 bridges road between Lincoln Blvd and Meadows Golf Club)

[jfv]

The Middlesex Modelers also holds an annual stunt contest in August at our filed at Mountain View Park in Middlesex, NJ.  The field is located behind Middlesex High School

[Mike Palko]

The Philly contest is held in Neshaminy State Park off of State Road. We park in the Playmasters Theatre parking lot.

3401 State Road Bensalem Pa 19020.

Mike

[Howard Rush]

I edit the contest calendar for Stunt News, and I try to have each contest listing accurate and useful.  Please send me the information as soon as you decide to have a stunt contest.  Most of my information on East Coast contests has come from Rich Peabody, but he may not have his ear to the ground now that he's in Florida.  Or an ear to the ground in Florida may not pick up data from Maine that well.  Or an ear to the ground in Florida may get bitten by ants.  (There's a metaphor somewhere.)

It is curiously difficult to find contest locations.  It usually takes me Google Maps and a couple of email exchanges with the CD to figure out. 

[Steve Helmick]

"It is curiously difficult to find contest locations.  It usually takes me Google Maps and a couple of email exchanges with the CD to figure out."

That's very true, and why I did quite a bit of work to put maps to all known NW sites on our club website...while we had a club website. I was very pleased to see JT pick up that feature and replant it on www.FlyingLines.org , even though some of the site info needed updating, new sites added, etc. I well recall several traumatic experiences looking for a contest site as a youth......we don't need that!  Steve