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Author Topic: Can we start analysis now or is it too early  (Read 18692 times)

steven yampolsky

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Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« on: August 02, 2010, 08:47:58 PM »
I'll start the difficult topic: US team didn't do as well as in the years past. Is it just a transitional "change of the guard" situation? Is it something that WC judges emphasized this time that wasn't there before? Could competitors from other countries offer an opinion of what they saw? I thought FAI recently made rule changes that made FAI's scoring closer to AMA's. Shouldn't that have made the playing field more even for US team members? I could have sworn, in the past WC, the US team usually bunched up near the top. Are there lessons to be learned?

Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2010, 10:17:24 PM »
I'm just going to wait for one of the team members to get home and tell us exactly what went on there. David usually gives a full account.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2010, 12:51:26 AM »
Steve, I think you need look no further than team management.  You can't have lackadaisical discipline in F2B.  We had roll call at dawn, followed by calisthenics, all-day rigorous stunt drill, a strict curfew, and NO alcohol.  Lopez and I cracked the whip, and we brought home champions. 
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2010, 05:52:40 AM »
Steve,

Why is it that you imply the US should always in the World Championships?
Aren't they other nations on this here planet (Earth) that can produce a winning stunt team?
Actually, the concept of a "stunt team" is a stretch, since they compete as individuals and just add up the results.

Perhaps if the flyers in the USA were to have more than one F2B contest (the team trials) every two years, you might have grounds to expect more success.

I looks to me like the American flyers (who can't really be called "national team" because they build, practice and compete as individuals) did pretty good.
Paul Smith

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2010, 06:14:36 AM »
Could competitors from other countries offer an opinion of what they saw?

Yes, we know how to beat us  ;D

Offline peabody

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2010, 06:42:31 AM »
I agree with Paul...
The USA should decide if they want to compete on/in the World arena....

Fly F-2-B.....with reliable laptops and computer programs, tabulation is as easy as AMA stunt....


Offline BillLee

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2010, 07:39:55 AM »
Steve, I think you need look no further than team management.  You can't have lackadaisical discipline in F2B.  We had roll call at dawn, followed by calisthenics, all-day rigorous stunt drill, a strict curfew, and NO alcohol.  Lopez and I cracked the whip, and we brought home champions. 

Howard, I didn't see any smiley faces associated with your post so I must assume you were serious. If so, your full of ...

Bill
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2010, 10:33:52 AM »
If anybody took time to read the Stiletto Chronicals by our own Les McDonald will know why we got beat.  We have told them how to fly the pattern to empress the judges and also how to build planes that are impressive also.  These are my words, not Les'.  And when you have the best in the world telling you how to improve, you know the rest.  Anyway,  I think the time difference, location and facilities have a lot to do with it.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2010, 10:37:11 AM »
Howard, I didn't see any smiley faces associated with your post so I must assume you were serious. If so, your full of ...

Bill

   Oh, Bill, Howard is the new Bob Newhart. He has mastered the deadpan delivery, even on the internet.

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2010, 10:42:39 AM »
I agree with Paul...
The USA should decide if they want to compete on/in the World arena....

Fly F-2-B.....with reliable laptops and computer programs, tabulation is as easy as AMA stunt....

  I wondered how long it would take for the "helpful suggestions" to start pouring in.

   So, Mr. Peabody, you believe that somehow people weren't trying to win and/or were not trying to maximize their performance? Please, with your vast knowledge of international competition, give us some of your sage insights on how us poor parochial types might do better.


     Brett

 

     

steven yampolsky

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2010, 10:45:10 AM »
Brett, my apologies for putting you on the spot here but you are closer to this than most of us. What is your take on this WC from US side?

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2010, 11:47:23 AM »
Wow......... there are SO MANY factors that go into competing at the World Level, that I can't give any opinion.  I am sad that the guys didn't really finish higher (I am an American and know all the guys) but I can see that it isn't as easy as flying at the local meet.  To win is everyone's goal, of course, or why go to the trouble of trying to make the team and going abroad to fly?

The *pattern* is the same so individual styles must play a role.  Just like it is here at our NATS and across the USA..  It isn't wrong, it is just CLPA.

Next time!
Bill
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2010, 11:49:26 AM »
Howard, I didn't see any smiley faces associated with your post so I must assume you were serious. If so, your full of ...

Bill

Did Mark Twain use smiley faces?
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2010, 12:22:05 PM »
I agree with Paul...
The USA should decide if they want to compete on/in the World arena....

Fly F-2-B.....with reliable laptops and computer programs, tabulation is as easy as AMA stunt....

And we have the computer programs.  

Flying F2B is pretty much identical to flying AMA.  You can leave in the extra lap after the hourglass and not be penalized.  You just have to have your engine quit after you do all the tricks and in time to land before seven minutes expires.  You could even have the computer program for every contest spit out an AMA score and an FAI score.  Then the contestants could gauge how they are doing at F2B without any extra flying.  

One could argue that AMA airplanes carry a few extra ounces of paint, but that may not hurt, and our best homemade airplanes are as good as the professionally built models that well-heeled Europeans fly.  I don't think that flying or equipment differ enough to matter.  Looking at the reports I've seen so far, weather variations at Gyula seem to have been the big factor.

One could make the case that our team trials should more accurately reproduce conditions we expect to find at the World Champs.  To simulate Landres, for example, we could hold the team trials somewhere in downtown Chicago surrounded by tall buildings.  We could require all entrants to fly airplanes that disassemble to fit into small boxes.  We could simulate the conditions of the upcoming WC at the Bulgarian resort by getting a bevy of topless Euro-units to distract the contestants.  

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 01:03:12 PM »
Brett, my apologies for putting you on the spot here but you are closer to this than most of us. What is your take on this WC from US side?

  Not that much closer as far as this particular WC goes. I have *some* inside information but I will let the participants comment. That's where it starts, but I don't think the answer will be a lot different from before.

  It's not like anyone is not trying.

    Brett

Offline Steven Kientz

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2010, 02:30:45 PM »
If the US team has won or placed high alot, then the odds would keep increasing towards a less favorable outcome. In two years the cycle should reverse, unless this year wasn't the bottom. Somebody call Vegas, I'm sure they can figure the odds.

Steve
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steven yampolsky

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2010, 02:42:10 PM »
It's not like anyone is not trying.

No doubt. Still wondering though...

Offline Darkstar1

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2010, 02:54:22 PM »
Downtown Chicago eh, At least I know of at least one free place 2 stay LL~
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 10:10:22 AM by darkstar1 »
Later,
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Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2010, 07:12:23 PM »
It is amazing how fast some are to judge.  The USA teams have dominated many years, and have lost in others. We cannot expect to dominate every time. I have said it before. We were represented by a very good team.

Two years ago, we were sitting on top, and David rightfully was temporarily on the pedestal. David’s airplane was touted as one of the best designs ever.

Two years ago the team members all gave an account of their World Championships experience in Stunt News. I am looking forward to our current team members' reports.

“The USA should decide if they want to compete on/in the World arena....Fly F-2-B”

“Perhaps if the flyers in the USA were to have more than one F2B contest (the team trials) every two years, you might have grounds to expect more success

How absurd are these statements?  As Howard said, there is almost no difference in the patterns anymore, except that if you want to pay $2000 or $3000 to have someone build your airplane it is OK. Yes, our “home built” airplanes are very good, well developed, and very competitive. They are as good as any stunters in the world.

We have been and will be very successful.

“Actually, the concept of a "stunt team" is a stretch, since they compete as individuals and just add up the results

Actually, with the exception of sports like Soccer, Baseball, Softball, all Olympic sports are individual sports.  But the individuals in Figure Skating, Diving, Swimming, Gymnastics, etc., all represent their countries as a team.

In our case our F2B team members spend some days practicing together and helping each other, then rooting for each other. The account of the help to Ryan is a great example. This support of fellow team members has happened before, and will happen again.

Very few of us have ever tried to compete at this level. The self sacrifice required is unimaginable. Just ask Les.  Bill was thrown into the mix at the eleventh hour, and I am sure that he will never regret the experience. We have all flown in local contests with variable temperatures, humidity, turbulence, winds and judges. Yet we seem to forget that our team also experiences these variables, and all of these people are probably better at handling the changes than most of us.

At this level of competition one or two maneuvers affected by the variables is the difference.  

I congratulate the USA team members and am very proud of them and their exhibition of good sportsmanship.
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Offline Phil Coopy

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2010, 07:42:34 PM »
Amazing how Monday morning quarterbacking is common to every sport.  S?P

Phil

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2010, 09:53:37 PM »
I would definitely not do any arm chair quarterbacking or phoney analysis.
I do think from some comments made by team members that Brett is right that the weather played a big part in the process.
Certainly there are some excellent stunt fliers in Europe, and the Chinese always make a great effort.
I will repeat one brief comment made by David in answer to an enquirery I made on the other Forum.
He said that he flew his fourth flight in severe wind and rain and under the circumstances found that his airplane handled the conditions very well.
He also said that a lot of the top finishing guys flew earlier in the day in much better conditions.
Mind you that's not intended to take anything away from the winners.  As in any competition luck of the draw is always a factor.
Ya Win's Some and ya lose's some.
I'm sure David and others will give a good description of the trials and tribulations.
Most importantly, remember that all these guys are Champions and we couldn't hope to be represented by a better bunch, both in terms of skill and also as Ambassadors of the USA.
Randy Cuberly
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2010, 10:14:16 PM »
My take on this. These guys are competing at the highest level of competition and everything has to be in line. All the planets so to speak.Time of day, Humidity,temp and wind. Not only does it take great skill but its a little luck too. Could draw a bad time to fly as the wind blows. You just don't know. I am sure everyone was giving it their best. 1st place or last they were there. Top of the heap. Cant slight anyone for that.
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Offline wmiii

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2010, 10:24:25 PM »
No doubt. Still wondering though...
I have to ask WHY, I don't fly any where near that level, neither do you, why are you still wondering, nothing better to do ?

  Walter  ???
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2010, 10:26:57 PM »
I would definitely not do any arm chair quarterbacking or phoney analysis.
I do think from some comments made by team members that Brett is right that the weather played a big part in the process.

   I don't think I said anything about that, but yes, I think that was a factor.  But there were some pretty amazing things going on at the contest - I was incredulous. Ever hear of a mid-air at a stunt contest?  Now you have!

    Brett

Offline proparc

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2010, 10:42:16 PM »

To simulate Landres, for example, we could hold the team trials somewhere in downtown Chicago surrounded by tall buildings.  

We could require all entrants to fly airplanes that disassemble to fit into small boxes.  

We could simulate the conditions of the upcoming WC at the Bulgarian resort by getting a bevy of topless Euro-units to distract the contestants.
LL~

I very strongly feel we should do the last one. Yes thats it-the last one is what I,(sorry) what WE need.
 
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2010, 10:51:38 PM »
The best of us are getting old. The young. They don't listen.  n1

steven yampolsky

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2010, 12:11:10 AM »
   I don't think I said anything about that, but yes, I think that was a factor.  But there were some pretty amazing things going on at the contest - I was incredulous. Ever hear of a mid-air at a stunt contest?  Now you have!

I remember at 2004 WC, Australian combat Junior had his lines cut during a match. His combat model made a nice divot right behind where the judges stood on the L-pad. I have some pictures lying around that I took. Was there something similar at this WC?

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2010, 12:16:12 AM »
I remember at 2004 WC, Australian combat Junior had his lines cut during a match. His combat model made a nice divot right behind where the judges stood on the L-pad. I have some pictures lying around that I took. Was there something similar at this WC?

  I was there for the flyaway in 2004, saw it almost all the way from release to impact -right in the ditch between the circle and the hill all the spectators were standing on 1/2 hour before. I was walking back from the farmhouse on the road, framed it perfectly.

    But no, this was not a flyaway. I'll let the witnesses tell the story.

     Brett

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2010, 02:04:23 AM »
I'll start the difficult topic: US team didn't do as well as in the years past. Is it just a transitional "change of the guard" situation? Is it something that WC judges emphasized this time that wasn't there before? Could competitors from other countries offer an opinion of what they saw? I thought FAI recently made rule changes that made FAI's scoring closer to AMA's. Shouldn't that have made the playing field more even for US team members? I could have sworn, in the past WC, the US team usually bunched up near the top. Are there lessons to be learned?

To this and several other comments that have been made on this thread, I will respond.

Our team came in fourth.  Compared to the USA record during the past 20 years, that is not so bad.  Also, given that we had three Americans in the top 15 is not a bad showing in any manner whatsoever.  In fact, if those three placings could have been used for the calculation for team placing, guess where the USA would have finished -- First.  So, David's score could not be used.  Given the level of performance that has risen around the world, the fourth place finish of the USA team is not something to be ashamed of as some seem to be suggesting by needing to figure out what is wrong with our team or the process by which we pick our team.  Back in the 70's and 80's, the US fliers were better.  I saw it first hand by attending several World Championships during that period and since.  But the rest of the world has improved.  They have the equipment.  They have the training, coaching and experience.  The Chinese first attended the World Championships in 1982.  They were well coached and well prepared then and they only got better.  Other teams have improved as evidenced by the French, the Japanese, the team from the Ukraine, the Czechs and other individuals have shown more than casual competence when competing at that level.  That the USA team is and has almost always been in contention, even this year, is an impressive record that is not matched by any other team in international model airplane competition since the World Championships took on the basic format used today starting in 1960.

And there should not be any hint that the performance of Ryan Young, the new reigning Junior Champion, was anything less that spectacular.

To those that suggest that we need to run more F2B contests here in the States, I will respond that there are no reasons to do so or not to do so.  In fact, for those who want to eliminate the BOM rule, the F2B rules should be quite attractive.  However, it would be interesting to hear the justification for holding F2B contests here for whatever reasons could be put fourth that would somehow make our teams more competitive or better prepared.  The patterns are essentially identical.  The differences in the patterns is practically nil and hardly make any difference on how the maneuvers are judged.  There are a few slight variations:

a.  The specification of the vertical or near vertical legs of the square maneuvers are different (and I will not comment on how some FAI judges score these maneuvers).

b.  The FAI landing is different in that a full lap is required from the start of descent at 1.5 meters to touch down.  The AMA pattern does not require such a thing.

c.  Only 1 1/2 laps are required prior to the overhead eights instead of the 2 1/2 laps required by the AMA rules.

d.  The FAI time limit is 7 minutes from the signal to start compared to the AMA limit of 8 minutes.

e.  There are some minor differences in the times allotted to enter the circle and for the time to signal to start, but these are not anything beyond the capability of anyone who has some knowledge of the rules, knows how to carry his model to the circle, and knows how to get ready to start his engine/motor.

So, what is it in the FAI rules that make them so different that causes hardships for our team members because we do not hold F2B contests here in the States?  I have yet to hear an explanation for that.

Yes, the scoring system is different.  Our AMA scoring is based (except for the landing) on a 10 to 40 point range with full point increments.  The FAI scoring has a K factor for each maneuver and uses 0 to 10 point scoring in 0.1 point increments.  I do not know if it has ever been done, but it would be interesting to have two sets of judges at a contest, or even during a judging clinic where one set of judges uses AMA scoring and the other uses FAI scoring.  I would be willing to wager that the better flights will still get scored as being better with both systems.  The variances in the abilities/skills of individual judges will have more effect on pilot placings than will the effect of different scoring systems.

Many factors can govern the outcome of any contest, and particularly at the World Championships level.  Luck of the draw coupled with field conditions (including long grass and less than smooth and/or level surfaces), changing weather conditions all enter into the equation.  Then, there is a problem that some judges do not really know the rules and record scores that show they do not know certain aspects of the rules.  I have seen this first hand and it is very frustrating not being able to have such situations corrected  given some of the political aspects that must be considered before filing any sort of protest.

And what some people fail to realize is the tremendous commitment by any team member to participate as a team member.  The process is expensive.  The AMA provides only a small fraction of the individual expenses to be on a team.  Transportation is difficult.  Getting models, equipment and fuel on site takes a major effort.  Living conditions are not always to a standard that we would like be be accustomed.  Local transportation requires a lot of sacrifices by each team member to accommodate the rest of the team.  Practice sites, when they exist are sometimes marginal at best and time for practice is often limited and must be shared with the other team members.  Yes, other teams cope as well, but nontheless, there are factors that require considerable effort and sacrifice in order to compete successfully at that level.

In short, I think our entire team did a terrific job this year and should get nothing short of our praise for their efforts.




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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2010, 06:26:19 AM »
To this and several other comments that have been made on this thread, I will respond.

Our team came in fourth.  Compared to the USA record during the past 20 years, that is not so bad.  Also, given that we had three Americans in the top 15 is not a bad showing in any manner whatsoever.  In fact, if those three placings could have been used for the calculation for team placing, guess where the USA would have finished -- First.  So, David's score could not be used.  Given the level of performance that has risen around the world, the fourth place finish of the USA team is not something to be ashamed of as some seem to be suggesting by needing to figure out what is wrong with our team or the process by which we pick our team.  Back in the 70's and 80's, the US fliers were better.  I saw it first hand by attending several World Championships during that period and since.  But the rest of the world has improved.  They have the equipment.  They have the training, coaching and experience.  The Chinese first attended the World Championships in 1982.  They were well coached and well prepared then and they only got better.  Other teams have improved as evidenced by the French, the Japanese, the team from the Ukraine, the Czechs and other individuals have shown more than casual competence when competing at that level.  That the USA team is and has almost always been in contention, even this year, is an impressive record that is not matched by any other team in international model airplane competition since the World Championships took on the basic format used today starting in 1960.

And there should not be any hint that the performance of Ryan Young, the new reigning Junior Champion, was anything less that spectacular.

To those that suggest that we need to run more F2B contests here in the States, I will respond that there are no reasons to do so or not to do so.  In fact, for those who want to eliminate the BOM rule, the F2B rules should be quite attractive.  However, it would be interesting to hear the justification for holding F2B contests here for whatever reasons could be put fourth that would somehow make our teams more competitive or better prepared.  The patterns are essentially identical.  The differences in the patterns is practically nil and hardly make any difference on how the maneuvers are judged.  There are a few slight variations:

a.  The specification of the vertical or near vertical legs of the square maneuvers are different (and I will not comment on how some FAI judges score these maneuvers).

b.  The FAI landing is different in that a full lap is required from the start of descent at 1.5 meters to touch down.  The AMA pattern does not require such a thing.

c.  Only 1 1/2 laps are required prior to the overhead eights instead of the 2 1/2 laps required by the AMA rules.

d.  The FAI time limit is 7 minutes from the signal to start compared to the AMA limit of 8 minutes.

e.  There are some minor differences in the times allotted to enter the circle and for the time to signal to start, but these are not anything beyond the capability of anyone who has some knowledge of the rules, knows how to carry his model to the circle, and knows how to get ready to start his engine/motor.

So, what is it in the FAI rules that make them so different that causes hardships for our team members because we do not hold F2B contests here in the States?  I have yet to hear an explanation for that.

Yes, the scoring system is different.  Our AMA scoring is based (except for the landing) on a 10 to 40 point range with full point increments.  The FAI scoring has a K factor for each maneuver and uses 0 to 10 point scoring in 0.1 point increments.  I do not know if it has ever been done, but it would be interesting to have two sets of judges at a contest, or even during a judging clinic where one set of judges uses AMA scoring and the other uses FAI scoring.  I would be willing to wager that the better flights will still get scored as being better with both systems.  The variances in the abilities/skills of individual judges will have more effect on pilot placings than will the effect of different scoring systems.

Many factors can govern the outcome of any contest, and particularly at the World Championships level.  Luck of the draw coupled with field conditions (including long grass and less than smooth and/or level surfaces), changing weather conditions all enter into the equation.  Then, there is a problem that some judges do not really know the rules and record scores that show they do not know certain aspects of the rules.  I have seen this first hand and it is very frustrating not being able to have such situations corrected  given some of the political aspects that must be considered before filing any sort of protest.

And what some people fail to realize is the tremendous commitment by any team member to participate as a team member.  The process is expensive.  The AMA provides only a small fraction of the individual expenses to be on a team.  Transportation is difficult.  Getting models, equipment and fuel on site takes a major effort.  Living conditions are not always to a standard that we would like be be accustomed.  Local transportation requires a lot of sacrifices by each team member to accommodate the rest of the team.  Practice sites, when they exist are sometimes marginal at best and time for practice is often limited and must be shared with the other team members.  Yes, other teams cope as well, but nontheless, there are factors that require considerable effort and sacrifice in order to compete successfully at that level.

In short, I think our entire team did a terrific job this year and should get nothing short of our praise for their efforts.








Well said

Offline BillLee

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2010, 06:41:12 AM »
I remember at 2004 WC, Australian combat Junior had his lines cut during a match. His combat model made a nice divot right behind where the judges stood on the L-pad. I have some pictures lying around that I took. Was there something similar at this WC?

No.

Fly-aways in F2D are very infrequent now since the mandated shut-offs were added a couple of years ago. I witnessed one cut-off F2D model (Canadian flyer) and the engine was off within 50' of the flight circle. I heard that there was one shut-off failure and the model went OOS and apparently never found. But there was no F2D interference wih the F2B circles other than the fact that they were nearby and I am SURE that the sound of the F2D engines annoyed the trick flyers. :)

Now: as to failures by the organizers.....they were rampant and I am sure you will hear more later.

Bill
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Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2010, 08:11:36 AM »
I have just one correction to Keith's excellent analysis: The Chinese first attended an F2B World Championships as competitors in 1980! I know, I was there...

Bob Hunt

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2010, 08:13:17 AM »
No doubt. Still wondering though...

 The words I would like to use to describe the way I feel about you would certainly get me banned from this forum! To imply that any one of our team would not give 110% at all times during this competition (the hardest one on the planet) is insulting at best!
Lets just do a recap though. We brought home a Junior World Champion, a 3rd place a 5th place a 13th place and a 31st. Oh yes this is terrible!! It must have been the Hungarian air that had me confused I thought we did pretty well.This all coming from someone to my knowledge has never been on an US team or even in the top 5 of our own Nationals is a joke! And just to clarify I am calling you a joke!

 Thank you Brett, Keith, Sparky. and Tom N. for you're support!

Derek Barry

steven yampolsky

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2010, 08:52:06 AM »
The words I would like to use to describe the way I feel about you would certainly get me banned from this forum! To imply that any one of our team would not give 110% at all times during this competition (the hardest one on the planet) is insulting at best!

This is what I was worried about! I made no such implications and you implying that I did is insulting and I will probably get banned from this forum as well!

Please, check the initial post. It made NO implications on pilot's skills or commitment. As a matter of fact, I would like to applaud Mr. Trostle for very polite and insightful analysis made in his earlier post. This is the kind of polite, respectful conversation I am looking for.


this all coming from someone to my knowledge has never been on an US team or even in the top 5 of our own Nationals is a joke! And just to clarify I am calling you a joke!
I wonder what will happen if I say that Atlanta Falcons didn't do as well in '09 as they did in '08? Will you start burning my effigy?


 HB~>


Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2010, 09:12:07 AM »
This is what I was worried about! I made no such implications and you implying that I did is insulting and I will probably get banned from this forum as well!

Please, check the initial post. It made NO implications on pilot's skills or commitment. As a matter of fact, I would like to applaud Mr. Trostle for very polite and insightful analysis made in his earlier post. This is the kind of polite, respectful conversation I am looking for.

I wonder what will happen if I say that Atlanta Falcons didn't do as well in '09 as they did in '08? Will you start burning my effigy?


 HB~>



I was not referring to you're original post for a reason. I was referring to the comment you made that you were "wondering" if we were trying! Maybe I missunderstood you but it seemed insulting.

 I light of you're original Question, I have seen in many WC;and the people we think of as the best not place as high as you would imagine. I have seen Billy, Paul, Bob all come in lower spots than the top 3 so why question this team. As far as Bill Rich's placing we (the team) are all confused by this. I saw many people that looked like they should be in the top 15 not there. It is up to the judges even if we don't agree in the end. To me, Igor seemed to fly the best shapes and bottoms of everyone but he ended up 6th. That is just the way it is. 

Online Trostle

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2010, 09:28:54 AM »
This is what I was worried about! I made no such implications and you implying that I did is insulting and I will probably get banned from this forum as well!

Please, check the initial post. It made NO implications on pilot's skills or commitment. As a matter of fact, I would like to applaud Mr. Trostle for very polite and insightful analysis made in his earlier post. This is the kind of polite, respectful conversation I am looking for.

I wonder what will happen if I say that Atlanta Falcons didn't do as well in '09 as they did in '08? Will you start burning my effigy?

 HB~>


Steve,

In your original post, you stated "US team didn't do as well as in the years past."

That was a very critical statement and falls completely short of the facts.  Actually, our team did very well.  Compared to our history, the team this year did better than it has in some other years, and admittedly, not as well as we have sometimes seen and seemingly always expect.  I think I understand what your were trying to say, but if I was on the team or had anything to do with their effort, I would have been offended by your choice of words.  That is why I wrote my response above.

And I am still waiting for the reasons to fly more F2B contests in the States so that somehow our teamswill be helped.

Keith




 


steven yampolsky

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2010, 09:45:43 AM »
I was not referring to you're original post for a reason. I was referring to the comment you made that you were "wondering" if we were trying! Maybe I missunderstood you but it seemed insulting.

I am still wondering about the factors that contributed to the final standings, not team's effort. The insights are trickling in one drop at at time. I want to know more as to what happened there.

The title did include a question "is it too early?". Perhaps it is and this thread should get locked down. 

I meant no disrespect to anyone but have to wonder(I wonder a lot) how a single word could be taken so far out of context and cause a very insulting post. I can't help but think that my geographic proximity to NY or some other "implied" associations have something to do with it.

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2010, 10:07:23 AM »
I am still wondering about the factors that contributed to the final standings, not team's effort. The insights are trickling in one drop at at time. I want to know more as to what happened there.

The title did include a question "is it too early?". Perhaps it is and this thread should get locked down. 

I meant no disrespect to anyone but have to wonder(I wonder a lot) how a single word could be taken so far out of context and cause a very insulting post. I can't help but think that my geographic proximity to NY or some other "implied" associations have something to do with it.


I did not think it was that far out of context, but if you say you meant nothing to be disrespectful I will accept that and offer my apology.

There are many things that contributed to the standings. Weather was one but not in the way you think. For the majority of the contest the weather was very nice. This made for MANY good flights. One windy rainy day on the 3rd day of qualifying; and the first half of the first day of finals was very bad. Wind was blowing through over and around tents and the tabulation booth. This caused low scores in the early part of the day and those lucky enough to get a late draw in the second round did have an advantage. Orestes was one of the last to fly on that day (day one of finals) and if you compare his first round to his second round flight you will see the dramatic change in score. The last day of finals was great weather and that is why there are a lot of big scores. You're draw on day one of finals played a big part on where you would finish. As I said there were many things that contributed to the final position, some worth mentoning and others better left alone.

steven yampolsky

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2010, 10:13:22 AM »
Steve,

In your original post, you stated "US team didn't do as well as in the years past."

That was a very critical statement and falls completely short of the facts.  Actually, our team did very well.  Compared to our history, the team this year did better than it has in some other years, and admittedly, not as well as we have sometimes seen and seemingly always expect.  I think I understand what your were trying to say, but if I was on the team or had anything to do with their effort, I would have been offended by your choice of words.  That is why I wrote my response above.

Thank you Keith for your remarks. I think you and I have the same view.  "US team didn't do as well as in the years past." and your comments "admittedly, not as well as we have sometimes seen" are echoing the same intent. The difference is that you are much, much closer to the team and have a better insight where I am not. I'd like to know more about this WC so I could understand the nuances better!

I don't want to take anything away from the achievement of this team. Past US teams move the bar VERY HIGH which is a matter of pride and every WC those of us on the sidelines root for our guys to keep the bar high. Some degree of "Monday night quarterbacking" usually ensues when things don't go as hoped. Still, it's no disrespect is implied.

As to your comment about reasons for having more contests, I also don't see why having more F2B contests can help. A few years ago, Dave Cook showed me a program used to keep scores at the NATS. I seem to remember it had a feature where one could show AMA and F2B scores for the same flights side by side. It scaled down per-maneuver scores to match F2B scale and applied factors. Analysis showed virtually no difference in placing regardless of the scoring system used.



Offline Peter Ferguson

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2010, 02:25:28 PM »
Steve, I think the answer is obvious. None of the US team were using ST60's.  :)
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Offline Terrence Durrill

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2010, 04:49:40 PM »
Well, everything else is going downhill for America:

        The economy is in the dumps with little/no hope of recovery
      
        Obamacare Canadian/Cuban style health care system replacing our own

        Lack of jobs - 9.5% unemployment (actually more like 17 or 18%)

        Iran about to get the Nuke and threatening to "abolish" Israel

        Israel about to attack Iran to stop their nuclear program

        Obama bowing and scrapeing to the leaders of all foreign nations

        Drug cartels taking over Arizona and soon your locality

        Obama refuses to close Mexican border and sues Arizona

        A national debt so large that we, our kids and grand kids can never pay it off
         And that is only the beginning...................................................................
  
SO WHY BE SURPRISED THAT WE ARE SLIPPING DOWN THE LIST OF WINNERS AT THE F2B COMPETITIONS?        mw~     S?P     H^^
        
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 05:18:52 PM by Terrence Durrill »

Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2010, 06:22:04 PM »
Hi Derek,

First, congratulations to our entire USA team for an outstanding job. As others have pointed out, you all worked very hard and made great sacrifices to represent us. I am very proud of the high placing of our team and it's members. My guess is that 99.999% of the modelers in our country feel the same as the many people making the positive posts on this thread.

Please don't let someone who's original post was both rude and in very poor taste get to you. I have no idea who this person is but if he said this face to face to any of us, he would be quickly shown the way to the parking lot. It is a shame that there are a few people like him that hurt our hobby/sport. Fortunately the majority of people in CL are like you who by their positive actions makes our hobby better.

Considering the insult, I admire the great amount of restraint you showed in your posts. We all know what you (we) would like to say/do about it!  ;)

Again, thanks for making us proud, well done.  y1

Regards,  H^^

Rudy
AMA 1667

Online Trostle

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2010, 06:29:31 PM »
Well, everything else is going downhill for America:

   (clip)
  
SO WHY BE SURPRISED THAT WE ARE SLIPPING DOWN THE LIST OF WINNERS AT THE F2B COMPETITIONS?        mw~     S?P     H^^
        

What is it that you do not understand?  Our team did very well.  It performed better than have a number our USA teams in the past.  And the World Junior Champion is an American.  Your post is insulting and should be withdrawn.

Our team deserves all of the credits it deserves, not the cheap shots that a few seem to dlight in writing.  If there is a way to do better, please show us.

Keith

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2010, 06:45:38 PM »
Our team deserves all of the credits it deserves, not the cheap shots that a few seem to dlight in writing.  If there is a way to do better, please show us.

   Labor Day Weekend, 2011, to give a specific time and place. We won't be using keyboards, then.

    Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2010, 07:09:22 PM »
What is it that you do not understand?  Our team did very well.  It performed better than have a number our USA teams in the past.  And the World Junior Champion is an American.  Your post is insulting and should be withdrawn.

Our team deserves all of the credits it deserves, not the cheap shots that a few seem to dlight in writing.  If there is a way to do better, please show us.

Keith, that response was unnecessary.  Right, Dennis?
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2010, 07:11:18 PM »
We won't be using keyboards, then.

Sticking with the internal combustion engine?
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2010, 07:26:34 PM »
But seriously, folks,

We had a great team.  I know.  I was there last September trying to be among them.  That was the toughest stunt contest I've flown in.  Guys that did well at the Nats came back to fly even better two months later.  Then they went even further, built new equipment that could be transported by hostile airlines, practiced their butts off, and spent thousands of dollars of their own money to represent the US stunt community.  I'm proud of them, and I know Steve is, too.
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline peabody

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2010, 07:32:41 PM »
The US team did VERY well, I believe....only David had experience in the Open class.....for three brand new Open fliers to do as well as they did is remarkable.
And I am sure that quite a few lessons were learned......
I hope that some fun was had, too!

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2010, 07:53:33 PM »
The US team did VERY well, I believe....only David had experience in the Open class.....for three brand new Open fliers to do as well as they did is remarkable.
And I am sure that quite a few lessons were learned......
I hope that some fun was had, too!

Uhhhh  Peabody...  I think Orestes  would disagree  with your statement,  He has been there representing the US before this year...  matter of fact  he  finished 7th  at the  2008 World Championships.

Regards
Randy

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2010, 09:08:36 PM »

From what I have heard from my friends I think if there were different judges the results could have been quite different.

This all about  precision flying and I feel the other end "judging" is not up to par.

Seems at least one of the judges, which I will not say from where,  did not do a good job. It messed up my buddy socore and the amercians too, so I have heard.

I hope one day weŽll have an electronic system to analyse and grade our flights.

Martin
Old Enya's never die, they just run stronger!

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