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Author Topic: Can we start analysis now or is it too early  (Read 18691 times)

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2010, 10:54:49 PM »
   I don't think I said anything about that, but yes, I think that was a factor.  But there were some pretty amazing things going on at the contest - I was incredulous. Ever hear of a mid-air at a stunt contest?  Now you have!

    Brett

My apologies Brett.  I really thought you said something about the weather being a factor...Maybe on the other forum.  Honestly I can't find any such comment by you now...must be ESP!  Again sorry.
Maybe I just got that impression from what David said....Who knows.

Randy C.
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Offline peabody

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2010, 03:09:38 AM »
Yup....I forgot about Orestes...sorry....
It is still a relatively inexperienced team compared to other Nations.
Have fun!

Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2010, 06:15:12 AM »
I have tried to read everything that is written in this post and have not been able to stay with it.  The results of the event but for Ryan's are, we are disappointed that our open guys are not on the top this time. Being disappointed means we wished for a better result however that does not mean that our team of fliers did not do well. They did their best. We are all very proud of them.

Many comments here should not have been taken to be mean in spirit. They surely are not. We don't have mean people here on Stunthanger, do we? Well look lets let it go and continue to play our game.

It would be much better to have an Astrodome to fly the WC in. Still even if we eliminated the elements people would question the results. Someone once said only the winner of the event has no complaints.
Chuck Feldman
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2010, 08:12:55 AM »
Howard, I was going to ask so and so (TD) to show me his hat. I imagine it's one of the cockscombs hung with scrotal sacks. I find every one of those lids a hoot. The incoherent babbling has, of course, a long European tradition. I know Da Da art when I stumble up on it.  Long been a fan. Always very funny. Glenn Beck the master actor, writer and humorist updating Da Da, bringing Da Da into the 21st. ce. Brilliant satirist. To quote Alfred Jarry's Perre UBU, "merde." Must say, I never thought to mix Da Da in with model airplanes. My shortsightedness. Thanks to our Glenn protege for pushing my aesthetic. Brett has turned me on to some fall down laughing funny examples of All American Da Da. Never would have figured out how to access those websites without Mr. B's hints. Those folks can sure work the genre. Very creative people. The incoherence, non-logic, phrase by phrase meaningless assertions as good as any in Jarry or Bauhaus theater. Where do they come up with that "merde." Often I'm struck dumb. Then I laugh and laugh.

Seems to me it's tough to compete in anything on the International level. The new members of the team, or less experienced team members, deserve special praise. Interesting to note that many of our home designed birds are still competitive at the FAI Internats. Open bay balsa birds powered by IC. Just the way George liked them.

Note for our non-theater buffs: it took me .24 seconds to Google the term Da Da and .47 seconds to Google Alfred Jarry. At one time in my career I wrote in the style of Alfred Jarry. Howard actually bought my book of plays written in that genre. It has added confusion, fun and interest to our conversations.

Cockscomb: .27 seconds to Google.
Scrotal: .40 seconds and so forth.





 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 11:04:46 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline Terrence Durrill

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2010, 12:48:33 PM »
(Howard, I was going to ask so and so (TD) to show me his hat. I imagine it's one of the cockscombs hung with scrotal sacks. I find every one of those lids a hoot. The incoherent babbling has, of course, a long European tradition. I know Da Da art when I stumble up on it.  Long been a fan. Always very funny. Glenn Beck the master actor, writer and humorist updating Da Da, bringing Da Da into the 21st. ce. Brilliant satirist. To quote Alfred Jarry's Perre UBU, "merde." Must say, I never thought to mix Da Da in with model airplanes. My shortsightedness. Thanks to our Glenn protege for pushing my aesthetic. Brett has turned me on to some fall down laughing funny examples of All American Da Da. Never would have figured out how to access those websites without Mr. B's hints. Those folks can sure work the genre. Very creative people. The incoherence, non-logic, phrase by phrase meaningless assertions as good as any in Jarry or Bauhaus theater. Where do they come up with that "merde." Often I'm struck dumb. Then I laugh and laugh.)


Will you laugh when you no longer have a country to fly your beloved model airplanes in?   Just wondering.    ???


 
[/quote]
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 01:19:34 PM by Terrence Durrill »

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2010, 01:07:03 PM »
To me, Igor seemed to fly the best shapes and bottoms of everyone but he ended up 6th. That is just the way it is. 

Thanx for that Derek. :-)

I flew second final flight only few minutes after you so I thing you know why  ::)

That second round pretty mixed results and it was main determining factor, because some pilots got ~30 points less thna others if I compare relatively fair other rounds.

I had anemometer whole day on and I can say that whole first round of final flights was fair, when wind was from ~6m/s to ~8m/s, while strongest wind I measured during flight of Orestes. But I did not get less that 6.6 (Vejmola). And I was happy, baceuse it was wind for me :-) ... I had maximum 7.4m/s

The second round was with wind up to 7m/s for first half round, when Derek flew, and also myself, slowly going down aproximately during David's flight if I remember well and calm during flights of Vejmola, Orestes, Richie, Ximping etc.

Third round was calm, so it means some flyers got 2 high scores (counting high + high), while others only one (counting low+high).

I do not know if there is a way how to eliminate such influence. May be in case of such change of weather (but how to define it?) we can cancel the round and use some scores from previouse 4 rounds?

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2010, 01:16:29 PM »
My apologies Brett.  I really thought you said something about the weather being a factor...Maybe on the other forum.  Honestly I can't find any such comment by you now...must be ESP!  Again sorry.
Maybe I just got that impression from what David said....Who knows.

    No need for apologies, there's a lot of stuff swirling right now. And yes, clearly weather was an issue. But of course there is always the luck of the draw, too.

   Once again, while I have heard a whole lot about it, I think those actually there should be the primary reporters.

   Brett

Offline phil c

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2010, 03:41:49 PM »
Thanx for that Derek. :-)

I flew second final flight only few minutes after you so I thing you know why  ::)
.........................
I do not know if there is a way how to eliminate such influence. May be in case of such change of weather (but how to define it?) we can cancel the round and use some scores from previouse 4 rounds?

The usual way to remove this kind of influence is to normalize the scores, so each flyer is ranked by percent of the high score for the round.  That helps eliminate the bias of adding a low score from one round to a high score from another.   Unfortunately, nothing can really help when the wind blows up in the middle of a round and the judges don't throw it out.  The allowable wind for PA is really kind of ridiculous for any kind of a fair contest.  Really, a flight should be cancelled and reflown if the wind gusts over 7 m/s.  That is about 1/3 of the normal flight speed, and more than enough to seriously affect a flight.
phil Cartier

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2010, 04:59:13 PM »
After Warren Tiahrt didn't call off flying on the windy day at the 2003 Nats and did call it off on one round at the 2004 Nats and got criticized for both, I told him to pick a wind criterion, and I'd build a machine to sound an alarm when the wind met it.  He picked 7 m/sec. (I think), sustained for one minute.  I built an Anemowimpometer and toted it to the Nats.  Turns out that's a pretty strong wind.  Even stout breezes fall below 7 m/sec. at least once a minute.  I made the same offer to Paul Walker, but he declined it, so I left the claptrap at home.  I encourage the new Nats ED to publish a wind specification for cancelling a round and to have a means of measuring it.   

I now see the wisdom of dividing our Nats qualifications into eight groups (four each for Open and Advanced).   Given 40 guys in Open, for example, only ten are competing against each other.  Ten guys can all put in a flight within an hour and a half or so, minimizing the weather difference among them.  The WC could do the same, perhaps using six groups of fliers, yet maintaining the same number of judges and circles they use now.  They could use a seeding algorithm akin to Paul's Nats method. 
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2010, 06:07:13 PM »
Well, I was there and saw pretty much the whole thing.  The good, the bad and the ugly.

First, the standard of flying was quite good throughout with a number of very good electric ships which got my attention, including, of course, Igor's.  As I recall there were four electrics in the finals.  The overwhelming number of buy and fly Yatsenko airplanes was a definite factor.  Didn't count them but they were everywhere and all flew to a predictably high standard.  Orestes was the highest placing of those flying these ships and I would agree that he deserved the honor.  I also felt that the Yatsenko brother in the finals flew essentially just as well but had the misfortune of flying first in the final (and deciding) third round.  

The finals, by the way, were flown with two rounds on Friday and one round on Saturday.  As noted by others, the Friday flying was impacted by widely varying conditions.  The difference was exacerbated because of the scheduling that included a one and a half hour lunch break for the judges which pretty much separated the bad morning and early second round air from the nearly stunt heaven air later in the latter flights of the second round.  Rub of the green as they say in golf.  Unfortunately, mulligans weren't part of the package.

Our guys flew very well although there were some weak spots in some of their patterns that never did get totally ironed out.  Orestes was very solid throughout and, as I stated, truly earned his third place finish.  David did get hammered in the windy round but flew solidly throughout with the exception of his second qualifying round where I thought he backed off a little too much in hopes of avoiding big errors (needing to get a good flight on the board) and as a result had some wishy washy bottoms and a significant lack of "sparkle" that usually helps set his patterns apart.  The result was a "safe" score that got him into contention but still pretty far in trail of the highest scores of the top competitors.  His last flight was much solider throughout but wasn't enough to bring him back up to the top three level.

Derek and Bill responded well to our critique sessions and Derek's finish pretty well told the story of a good flyer getting whacked by Mother Nature (He pancaked in during the square eight on his flight in the bad air) and not being able to dig himself out of the hole which resulted.  The less then perfect grass surface also bit him and cost him at least two props--forcing him to go in search of a replacement.  I was very proud of his last round flight in which he was finally able to put all the "stuff" behind him and earned a very credible 1060+ score.  Even more impressive was the last round of qualifying flight in which he had pre-determined he needed to get a 1020+ to overcome the hole he found himself in from the previous rounds.  He pulled something like a 1021 which did exactly what he said it would do.

Bill Rich's situation bothered us all.  He started out the week with a few rough spots but had them pretty thoroughly smoothed out by the time officials rolled around yet he never seemed to get the judges' attention.  The fact that he had no international history combined with the fact that the depth of talent was so great among the vast majority of the fliers probably joined forces to do him in.  His official flights were solid and scores well in excess of those he received would not have surprised me a bit.  Having said that, I've always felt that I'm never surprised by stunt scores--often informed--but never surprised.  There are only certain things the flier has control over and none of them has anything to do with the judges' determinations.  That's just the way it goes.


I can't say enough positive things about the performance of young Ryan Young.  His week got off to a rotten start when none of his equipment made it to Hungary when he did.  Finally his backup airplane (a Brett Buck Infinity with a Trivial Pursuit wing in it) arrived but the engines and tanks were in another case which hadn't shown up.  The team worked together to shoe horn David's backup PA .75 and its eight oz capacity tank into the front end of the big yellow bird.  Fortunately, the engine performed pretty much as programmed and after some intensive retrimming the new ship was flying well and the pilot performing even better.  From the very first flight he was the only member of the US Team who didn't have some shape problems.  I don't know if it's because kids have studied geometry more recently than their "elder" team members but all of his rounds were round and all of the cornered maneuvers had equal sides and precise 90 or 120 degree angles.  This, plus the fact that he drove so deep into bottom corners that I flinched every time he did so, made his flight truly standout.

The only thing we tried to caution him on was that he was demanding the absolute maximum out of the airplane under ideal conditions and we feared that under stress or bad air he risked performance problems.  That did in fact turn out to be the case in the bad air day as he stalled the ship repeatedly in the bottom corners and this didn't do him any good with the judges.

Nonetheless, although he started out well behind his primary competition (the Italian and French Juniors) the judge gradually and almost predictable scored him better with each successive round.  After two round of finals he had a substantial lead over the two other Juniors although a good flight by either coupled with a stinker of his own could have done him in.

The most impressive thing I saw all week was his last finals flight when he got off richer than ideal and I feared that he wouldn't finesse the flight the way that would be necessary to eliminate errors that would cost lots of points.  Well, the kid is nothing if not a fast learner, not only did he display such finesse but he also took the airplane to pretty much the limits of what could be asked and never went beyond that edge of the envelope.  Although the French flier put up a big number on his last flight, Ryan finessed his flight to a virtual wash with that of the Frenchman and his bigger numbers from the first day took the blue ribbon.

I've got to run now.  I'll try to get back later on and talk a bit about the other fliers, the site, the weather, the contest administration and some thoughts on the judging.

The bottom line on the American team is that they all worked hard and performed well.  In the judges' eyes they appear not to quite have come up with the big numbers necessary to prevail at the level we all would have liked.  As an assistant manager tasked with "shepherding" their efforts, I can assure you that they left nothing in their tanks by the end of the week.  You couldn't ask for more than they gave.

Ted Fancher

Edited to remove repeated paragraphs.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 10:56:59 PM by Ted Fancher »

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2010, 06:43:43 PM »
Thanks Ted.

Looking forward to more words from you and all the team members.
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steven yampolsky

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2010, 08:54:10 PM »
Thank you Ted!!! This is what I was hoping for! A thorough analysis! Man I wish I was there!

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2010, 10:33:16 PM »
Thanks, Ted.  We were fortunate this time to have an ATM who could help with the coaching. 
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2010, 10:55:40 PM »
Just a quick late night correction to my original post.  David's flight which I felt was too "backed off" was his second official flight, not qualifying.  He had good logic in trying to avoid big errors but I felt it needed  a bit more aggression to really score well.  As I stated, it worked to provide a better base line but was insufficient to bring him the total number that was necessary to threaten to win.

Monday morning quarterbacking at its best, huh!

Ted

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2010, 07:23:33 AM »
Thank Ted, for leting us in on the rest of the story.  It is great to have someone there and knows what is going on.  The photo of you there with young Ryan is a keeper is a keeper.  Also seen a photo of Shareen.  Glad you are all home safe and sound.  Thanks again,   H^^
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2010, 03:12:03 PM »
Steve, I think the answer is obvious. None of the US team were using ST60's.  :)

Yeah, but I bet a lot of our guys are rummaging around in the attic trying to find them.

FWIW, World Champ Richie told me to personally let engine guru Tom Lay know that his work was more than satisfactory.  From the sidelines all I can say is that it handled the bad and the good conditions pretty much as well as anything out there.  Unlike most all I've seen in the US, he ran with an expansion chamber muffler and the apparent control of the run seemed much superior to that obtained using "chip" mufflers.  Ran like a clock all week and Richard was in the lead throughout every round.  Can't do much better than that.

Plus he's a gentleman, has a great father who had a smile plastered on his face all week, and was humbly accepting of the plaudits sent his way.  A deserving Champion!  It was a pleasure to watch his success...even if I had hoped for a bit different outcome.


Ted Fancher

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2010, 03:18:00 PM »
Richard was in the lead throughout every round

But not that first windy final round  ;D ... ST60, even that his, is not good weapon to the wind.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2010, 03:34:55 PM »
But not that first windy final round  ;D ... ST60, even that his, is not good weapon to the wind.

You could be right, Igor.  I didn't write down all the scores.  What I did know was that every time I went back to the hotel Richie was in the lead.  Including Saturday afternoon!  I certainly never saw him give up much more than anyone else in bad air.  Like it or not (and I'm a big fan of more "modern" powertrains), his equipment was up to the challenges Mother Nature served up.

Ted

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2010, 03:49:01 PM »
I know ... just because I was first  >:D

But really. I know that model very well and also that power train and also its ability, and I know that wind is its problem. He is good flyer and he does good pattern also in bad conditions, but if model falls from lines, then it is really difficult also for good flyer. I tried (unsuccesfully) to convince him to pipe in past to prevent that problem.

However Richie has already two electric sets and I think we will see him next year flying electric.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #69 on: August 06, 2010, 05:55:31 PM »
I know ... just because I was first  >:D

But really. I know that model very well and also that power train and also its ability, and I know that wind is its problem. He is good flyer and he does good pattern also in bad conditions, but if model falls from lines, then it is really difficult also for good flyer. I tried (unsuccesfully) to convince him to pipe in past to prevent that problem.

However Richie has already two electric sets and I think we will see him next year flying electric.

Hmmm. 

Whatever, Igor.  I just have a problem pointing fingers at the guy who was "first" the only time it counted...after all the flights were over.  Sounds too much like sour grapes.  The way I understand the event, the flier who winds up on top pretty much convinced the judges his/her stuff worked pretty well.

Ted

Offline proparc

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #70 on: August 06, 2010, 06:59:29 PM »
Hmmm. 

The way I understand the event, the flier who winds up on top pretty much convinced the judges his/her stuff worked pretty well.

Ted

This was the statement I was waiting to hear. No surprise, that it has come from one of our more senior, and experienced members.
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2010, 01:18:00 AM »
I know Ted, I was just speaking about that one single round with wind, just because you wrote he won "all". I really know that final results are counted from all flights.  ;D

I just wanted to point out, that the ST60 in hands of good flyer (now we can say the best after his succes) is limiting factor to some extent. But do not worry, he is already on good way to solve it  ;D
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 03:48:32 AM by Igor Burger »

steven yampolsky

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2010, 08:30:37 AM »
I know Ted, I was just speaking about that one single round with wind, just because you wrote he won "all". I really know that final results are counted from all flights.  ;D

I just wanted to point out, that the ST60 in hands of good flyer (now we can say the best after his succes) is limiting factor to some extent. But do not worry, he is already on good way to solve it  ;D

Six years ago, the top was dominated by 4 strokes. Everyone seemed to be convinced that piped engines, 4-2-4 engines are pretty much inferior. Not a day went by on the forums with one member or another posting about "the switch". In the end, piped engines are still in the game(08 WC champion), so are 4-2-4 kinds(10 WC champion). This is why I have such a hard time believing electric taking over the stunt competition.

Offline peabody

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2010, 10:25:00 AM »
Steve...
My belief is that FAI and AMA rules are tilted to favor electrics....there is no mention of excluding the variable speed switches and the like that electrics are employing....yet IC engines prohibit them....

I believe that Ted Fancher has done a TON of work with 4 strokes and has eliminated them from his Nats and Worlds challenging planes...

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2010, 11:03:15 AM »
I've lots of opportunity to watch Mike Palko fly his electric birds. The power system that he uses in the Bob Hunt designed Mustang has proven itself to be extremely reliable and adjustable. Mike buys components that he judges to be of the highest quality. The astuteness of his choices are evident. The systems always work well. The consistency of his power package, same from day to day, no matter the weather, and the ability to adjust rpm and power, are, I think, a great advantage when compared to IC. Pipes, venturis, fuel, plugs, head gasket, props and other factors can be changed in IC engines to tune in performance for a given plane. To an extent IC can be matched to the weather. Our best competitors have accumulated the archane knowledge and have the skill to adjust an IC. Mike Palko's adjustment process is infinitely simpler. RPM is set with a twist of a knob. Run time, also, no problem. The motors start and run the same, flight after flight. The more complicated possibilities for electric power, tuning via a microchip so that the motors deliver more power in different parts of the pattern-- far as I know, Mike doesn't bother with that. It's the simpler elements that make electric a desirable power option. (I hate electric.)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 12:55:50 PM by Dennis Moritz »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2010, 11:13:09 AM »
Six years ago, the top was dominated by 4 strokes. Everyone seemed to be convinced that piped engines, 4-2-4 engines are pretty much inferior. Not a day went by on the forums with one member or another posting about "the switch".

       Says a lot about the system where people decide, with pretty much no evidence or basis, to declare the next big thing a "revolution".

      Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2010, 12:03:33 PM »
Six years ago, the top was dominated by 4 strokes. Everyone seemed to be convinced that piped engines, 4-2-4 engines are pretty much inferior. Not a day went by on the forums with one member or another posting about "the switch". In the end, piped engines are still in the game(08 WC champion), so are 4-2-4 kinds(10 WC champion). This is why I have such a hard time believing electric taking over the stunt competition.

I guess I completely MISSED that,  I saw no complete dominance by 4 strokes at any time much less 6 years ago???

Randy

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2010, 12:12:06 PM »
I guess I completely MISSED that,  I saw no complete dominance by 4 strokes at any time much less 6 years ago???

Randy

Dont Feel bad, I MISSED that too!


Online Brett Buck

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2010, 01:04:38 PM »
Dont Feel bad, I MISSED that too!

   I think the confusion hinges on the definition of "everyone" in Steve's post!  He is correct in that there was a lot of noise about the 4-stroke revolution, and a few very aggressive promoters (with whatever motives they may have had) trying to turn 4-strokes in to the second coming*. Proving the point that most advice on the internet is worth exactly what you pay for it.    I got 2-3 letters a week asking if I had "gone 4-stroke yet" for a while (about the same rate I am getting "have you gone electric yet?" now! - assuming of course I ever had access to read my email in the last 6 months!!).

   The only bandwagon I am jumping on is the "what gives me the best chance to win stunt contests" bandwagon. Any of these systems can be made to work if it suits your approach but some answers are better than others, and everybody has to decide for themselves. The more successful decide based on objective results, the less successful chase perceived (or concocted) trends.

    Brett
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 02:52:15 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2010, 01:34:21 PM »
   I think now it is pretty irrelevant what power train you use. There are so many good power systems available now that it is all about preference. Winning really all comes down to skill. Everyone is talking about how a ST60 won the World Championships. That is all B.S. Richie and his great flying ability won, nothing else. Obviously it does not hurt to have a powerful and RELIABLE engine but that will only take you so far. Richie had 2000 flights on the plane he won with (I know because I asked him) and that is the reason he flew so well. He was solid from his first to his last flight, that is what makes a World Champion.

ST60, PA 40,51,65,75, RoJett, Saito, electric, Fox 35, all of these in the hands of a talented pilot could possibly win.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2010, 05:13:02 PM »
   I think now it is pretty irrelevant what power train you use. There are so many good power systems available now that it is all about preference. Winning really all comes down to skill. Everyone is talking about how a ST60 won the World Championships. That is all B.S. Richie and his great flying ability won, nothing else. Obviously it does not hurt to have a powerful and RELIABLE engine but that will only take you so far. Richie had 2000 flights on the plane he won with (I know because I asked him) and that is the reason he flew so well. He was solid from his first to his last flight, that is what makes a World Champion.

ST60, PA 40,51,65,75, RoJett, Saito, electric, Fox 35, all of these in the hands of a talented pilot could possibly win.

Bingo!

Offline peabody

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2010, 05:19:22 PM »
Fox .35?

Offline Gene Martine

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #82 on: August 07, 2010, 06:34:48 PM »
   #^ #^ #^ #^
 I have to agree with Derek, I have over 1000 on my SV-11 an it seems to fly better the more I fly it. Or is it that I'm more comfortable with it.   y1 y1 y1
 Gene

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2010, 08:39:11 AM »
Double Bingo!
AMA 7544

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2010, 10:51:07 AM »
Fox .35?

While that seems a little off the wall in the "modern" age I fully remember appropriately sized Fox .35 powered models handling bad conditions at national championships with more aplomb than the hot "motors of the era".  Todd Lee's complete pattern in the high winds of Lincoln the year he won Senior comes to mind.  IIRC, that was the same year that Les got blown out of the Clover three out of three Walker fly-off flights and Bob Gieseke won the whole thing also with a Fox.

We've learned a lot about airplane trim and design since the early days of stunt with nose heavy, small tailed, overflapped designs and I don't think it is out of the question for a properly sized, designed, built and trimmed stunt powered by a good Fox .35 to be competitive.  It wouldn't be with 600 square inches and 65 foot lines but at 525 and 57-8 foot lines I think we'd be surprised how well it could do.

...or maybe not.  I'm unlikely to be the first to try it.

Ted

Offline John Sunderland

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2010, 05:49:39 PM »
We did very well as we always do and we fielded the best team possible. End of story.
I am particularly proud of our guys and was there for the trials last fall. To me the team trials is the hardest contest flown stateside. I have flown twice at the trials and it is a tough contest. However, it is much less nerve racking than the Nats. Until you have been there as a competitor....you just dont know how good our guys really are.

Surely you local competitors have been in a contest situation where weather or something as simple as an interuption to your "routine" or other annoyances played into how well you flew at a given contest in a large field of expert competitors such as Brodaks or VSC. Then factor in jet lag where you arrive six hours before the time you left US territory. No time to get acclimated etc. Until we place dead last, you will never hear me second guessing what could be done better...unless by some luck I manage my own way onto the team.

A few years back we heard the old saying repeated a lot "Well, the Euro pilots etc. arent quite up to snuff." Anyone who saw the US Worlds in person in 04 will tell you that is not true anymore if it ever was. Even the best pilot ever doesnt win every single time....that's why we keep competing as I see it. Besides I kind of like you folks! Stunt has been in my blood since birth pretty much.LL~

Loyal US F2b team follower here. We were at Lexingtons contest and calling other folks to see who had the Worlds final scores. We would have followed a blow by blow from an announcer on the radio like a baseball game if we could have.

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #86 on: August 08, 2010, 06:06:30 PM »
...at 525 and 57-8 foot lines I think we'd be surprised how well it could do.

Ted

=====================================================================

Ted, anyone who saw your flight at a bygone VSC with that Veco Chief / Johnson .33 (.32?) would have to agree.  That thing was on rails, and the flight was mighty impressive (right up 'til the glow plug quit, or whatever that problem was).  An amazing and very impressive flight with a relatively small & unsophisticated model.  We were all mighty impressed.
FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

steven yampolsky

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2010, 11:13:03 AM »
I guess I completely MISSED that,  I saw no complete dominance by 4 strokes at any time much less 6 years ago???
Randy

1) At the 04 WC, top teams such as the French and Chinese were 100% 4-stroke.
2) Paul Walker, the dominant US flier at the time was flying 4-strokes too. That's what I mean by dominance.


EDIT: Never mind the post. Brett wrote a much better explanation of what I meant. Thanks Brett.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #88 on: August 11, 2010, 03:52:42 PM »
1) At the 04 WC, top teams such as the French and Chinese were 100% 4-stroke.
2) Paul Walker, the dominant US flier at the time was flying 4-strokes too. That's what I mean by dominance.


Hi Steven  I guess the reason I am confused and do NOT remember that is because of this The "top 2004 world Chinese team that was all 4 stroke was beat by a 2 stroke 61
The Top French 2004 World team that was all 4 stroke was beat by a 61 2 stroke
matter of fact a 61 2 stoke won both jr  and Sr World title that year as did the US Nat's Champ used a 2 stroke that year also which was typical all over, so excuse my thinking that they have never dominated.
However I do see what you are saying in referring to Bretts post, and the points you were trying to make

2004 WORLD GOLD Medal winner Bill Werwage PA61
2004 WORLD GOLD Medal winner Rob Gruber PA61
2004 NATs winner David Fitzgerald PA61
2004 Senior NATs winner Rob Gruber PA61
2004 Advanced NATs winner Orestes Hernandez PA61
2004 NATS Classic winner Bob Hunt Aero 36


Have fun
Regards
Randy

steven yampolsky

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Re: Can we start analysis now or is it too early
« Reply #89 on: August 11, 2010, 05:45:50 PM »
However I do see what you are saying in referring to Bretts post, and the points you were trying to make

2004 WORLD GOLD Medal winner Bill Werwage PA61

Yep, Out of top 10 places, 5 where flying 4-strokes that I know of. It felt like 4-strokes was "IT" and I was on the trailing edge of progress with my VF's. Glad it was just a phase.

Steve.

P.S. Randy, I'm enjoying PA75. It's am easy motor with LOTS of power.


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