2022 Nationals CLPA Coverage......

[Derek Barry]

I wasn't there but heard many many stories. While it sounds fun I respectfully disagree and the other competitors did too and created PAMPA.

I would thin PAMPA could ask the AMA if using an onsite ED in place of the overall CD in a very one off odd ball case like this would be acceptable. If not, why not, and how can it be made to be acceptable.

The Navy Nats were literally the reason PAMPA was formed...

Derek

[Ken Culbertson]

The Navy Nats were literally the reason PAMPA was formed...

Derek

Maybe I am misinformed since i was off fighting some silly war from '68 to '74 while all of this was going on and didn't get back into it till '75.  I thought that 1972 was the last Navy Nats and PAMPA was formed in 73 or 74?  Am I wrong?

Ken 

[Derek Barry]

Maybe I am misinformed since i was off fighting some silly war while all of this was going on, but I thought that 1972 was the last Navy Nats and PAMPA was formed in 73 or 74?  Am I wrong?

Ken

Thank you for making my case.

Derek

[Dick Pacini]

PAMPA was formed at the 1973 NATS in Oshkosh WI.  I was a charter member. 
The original name was PAPA but was changed shortly after when it was discovered that PAPA was Precision Aerobatic Pilots Association.  We needed the M to differentiate our organization.

[Brett Buck]

I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.

   No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.

   I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting  - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.

     So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.

     Brett

[Derek Barry]

I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.

   No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.

   I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting  - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.

     So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.

     Brett

Thank you Brett. You are absolutely correct!

Derek

[Ken Culbertson]

Thank you for making my case.

Derek

Maybe I misread your post.  Are you saying that PAMPA was formed because of the Navy Nats or because we lost them?

Ken

[Matt Colan]

Maybe I misread your post.  Are you saying that PAMPA was formed because of the Navy Nats or because we lost them?

Ken

It was formed because of the Navy NATS

[Matt Colan]

I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.

   No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.

   I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting  - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.

     So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.

     Brett

I couldn’t agree more!! The sad truth is Brenda’s actions overshadowed an incredible week…and I need to remind myself of that constantly as of this moment.

[James Mills]

I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.

   No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.

   I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting  - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.

     So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.

     Brett

Well said, agree 100%.

James

[Brett Buck]

I couldn’t agree more!! The sad truth is Brenda’s actions overshadowed an incredible week…and I need to remind myself of that constantly as of this moment.

   I know you are disappointed and in some sense were robbed of a very big experience. All I can add is that *stunt can be a very frustrating event*, you have good luck sometimes, and bad luck sometimes, and frequently, both at the same time.

   You did all you could do, you succeeded, and made it to the highest level of the event.

     Brett

[Derek Barry]

   I know you are disappointed and in some sense were robbed of a very big experience. All I can add is that *stunt can be a very frustrating event*, you have good luck sometimes, and bad luck sometimes, and frequently, both at the same time.

   You did all you could do, you succeeded, and made it to the highest level of the event.

     Brett

Agreed. 

Derek

[Frank Imbriaco]

It was formed because of the Navy NATS

Matt :  Please elaborate if you will.

[John Paris]

I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.

   No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.

   I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting  - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.

     So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.

     Brett

Everyone,
I have not added anything to this discussion, but have been watching.  I truly appreciate Brett's comments regarding the team's efforts to make the NATS a success for this year and wanted to add a few comments of my own.  From the judges watching the flights (Mark Overmier, Joe Daly Jr, Joan Cox, Mike Eber, Mark Gerber, Mike Stinson, Steve Smith, Doug Patterson and John Simpson) to create the scoresheets for the runners (Beth Mills and Jeanie DeMauro) to bring to the tabulation team (Kathleen Patterson, Michele Lee and Colleen Gilbert) who calculated, verified and posted the scores in a very respectable time, this was a well connected team that worked great together.  Points also go to Howard for creating the program that we used effectively this year and to Mark Weiss and Mike Eber for conducting the appearance judging portion of the event.  I would also like to thank Mike Stinson, Dennis Adamisin and Mike Schmitt and their teams for their contributions in the unofficial events.  Also a special word of thanks to Michele Lee for keeping everything so well organized.  Sure made the whole event a lot easier.

While the NATS did not end as I had envisioned it, it is over and time to move on.  I am taking a lot of good experiences in running my first major event and really appreciate the opportunity to have had a chance to run it. 

Based on the experiences from this year, there are a lot of good ideas being kicked around to help make future NATS run smoother.  As a member of the PAMPA EC I will do all I can to help make this happen so that future NATS can be enjoyed by all.

John

[Joseph Patterson]

I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.

   No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.

   I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting  - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.

     So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.

     Brett

    Brett, you express so well what most of us  feel about a job extremely well done by John Paris and his great team. Thank you again John and team for a job exremely well done.
                    Doug and Kathleen

[john e. holliday]

I too have followed the NATS reporting and say it was another greawt NATS until the end.  I also believe Brenda did what the AMA told her to do.  Hope this gets closed out before next year.  Most of all thanks to all that did make the NATS happen.

[Steve Fitton]

I would echo Brett's comments here: John did a fantastic job. It really was seamless for competitors. I know John and everyone working for him put in tons of work and it paid off.

[Crist Rigotti]

I would echo Brett's comments here: John did a fantastic job. It really was seamless for competitors. I know John and everyone working for him put in tons of work and it paid off.

Ditto!

[Dennis Nunes]

I have a real appreciation for Brett's eloquent wording used in regards to the outstanding job that John, Michele and his crew did. To have this "ugly mark" put on the 2022 US Nationals, to no fault of John and his crew, is extremely disappointing.

That being said, I was under the Pavilion and overhead the CL Contest Director say, "I have a 12 hour drive to get home" and that was it, the Finals were done. That DID NOT sit well with me. Then, I thought about Brett, Paul Walker, Chris Cox, Tim Just and Howard Rush who spent 3 to 5 days on the road, traveling 8-14 hours a day, over 2200 miles to get to Muncie. And then have to repeat it all over again to get home. A 12 hour drive for the CD seems pretty insignificant to me. (On the other hand, Dave Fitzgerald and I had it a little easier, as we flew from San Francisco to Indianapolis and rented a car and drove to Muncie.)

Putting travel aside, the cost for our 8-days to stay in Muncie hit me. All of us spent 1000's of dollars to be at what should have been the premier event of the year. Then to have this event end the way it did --- gut wrenching.

I am relatively new to attending the NATs. This was my third year and my first year competing in the Open division. Even though I’ve started building a new plane for the 2023 NATs, I can’t help but think about what happened last year, now this year and how weather played a role in shortening these event. So much so, that I’m questioning if I want to make the commitment in preparation, time and money to attend this event next year.

For the sake of the event, I really hope this gets worked out and never ends the way it did. It’s just a bitter pill to swallow.


Dennis

[Mark Weiss]

I am the President of PAMPA and have been since April 1 of this year. I was the Nats ED in 2019, judged Top 20 and Top 5 last year. I attended our national championship this year and supported John and his wonderful team to the fullest of my ability; they did not need very much assistance!

I have waited to post here until I had concrete material to share. Rumors and hearsay waste everyone’s time.
Before arriving on the Saturday before our NATS, I had contacted Chad Budreau and asked for two hours of his time sometime during my nine days in Muncie. He was quick to respond and we met for two hours Wednesday of NATS week. Chad is the AMA Executive Director and we have known each other for about five years.

The purpose of my meeting with him was to make sure he was aware of my feelings that we as PAMPA members do not feel a high level of trust with his organization. I cited several examples and he was upfront and acknowledged that AMA has not been paying very much attention to CL and Special interest groups, like PAMPA.
He was very open and honest with me as I was with him. We talked about how to work together as I had started a very serious campaign to grow our membership significantly. The meeting ended and I felt very good about promises he made and actions that he has taken within one day of that meeting.

When the events of Saturday took place, along with others I was furious! As I was staying the night, I spoke to a few folks and by late evening, I had written a scathing letter to Chad. My message was too disrespectful to Chad so I decided to wait until Sunday. I sent him a revised message Sunday morning and he replied quickly. We decided to have a phone conversation on Tuesday, due to prior commitments he already had.

He called me on Tuesday and he had already received complaints from us but wanted me to go through everything that took place. I was very frank with him and asked some very tough questions about the shutting down of our event, especially with PAMPA being an AMA sanctioned SIG! I also shared the changes that AMA would have to make for us to return to Muncie for our. national championship. He understood completely.

AMA staff and their Executive Committee are meeting next week to review every step of the debacle, interview their C/L Director, establish clear and written rules that will absolutely prevent a recurrence of that Saturday afternoon. Again today we exchanged messages and last night sent each member of the PAMPA EC a detailed report on my meeting with Chad and positive outcomes that are underway at AMA. Until AMA has completed their investigation, we will not share unsubstantiated news with you.

Members of your PAMPA EC have spent a lot of their time going over what took place and what we can do to minimize weather delays. I am retired but have devoted all of my time to see this matter come to the proper outcome so we can all sleep better about our next NATS visit.

So, please rest assured that we are as on top of this matter as anyone could be. I have volunteered to go back to Muncie if that will make the process quicker but more importantly, in our best interests. This is not the time to trash the AMA for AMA top management did not terminate our most important day at the NATS. This will be resolved with a few of their key people being folks I have known in model aviation for some time and have stellar reputations.

Please exercise some patience. Their meeting would have been this week but a few key people are in Oshkosh for the annual Fly In.

Thank you all
Mark

[Ken Culbertson]

I have waited to post here until I had concrete material to share. Rumors and hearsay waste everyone’s time.

THANK YOU!

[Brett Buck]

That being said, I was under the Pavilion and overhead the CL Contest Director say, "I have a 12 hour drive to get home" and that was it, the Finals were done. That DID NOT sit well with me. Then, I thought about Brett, Paul Walker, Chris Cox, Tim Just and Howard Rush who spent 3 to 5 days on the road, traveling 8-14 hours a day, over 2200 miles to get to Muncie. And then have to repeat it all over again to get home.

  I wish it was just 2200 miles, more like 2400, and I assure you, sitting there shivering from my fever with the seat heater on, the last 200 miles make a big difference. Just under 5100 miles round trip.    CALTRANS managed to make my 10.5 hours yesterday more like 13.

    BTW, send me a text so I have your contact information in my phone, I have your stuff and it needs to go away soon.

      Brett

[Reptoid]

     I think that you will ultimately find that AMA headquarters and officials will not relinquish the decision making process regarding weather based cancellation to anyone. They have stated in the past that they are the stewards of the property and responsible and liable for anything safety related. They have indicated that safety related weather conditions like thunderheads, lightening, tornado warnings, , high wind advisories, etc. would be grounds for ceasing operations.  Have they changed their minds? I guess Mark will eventually find out.
    Was that the case here, and Maybe Brenda just voiced her opinion that she was ready to get on the road home? Did john ask her directly who "made the call" to cancel?

[Howard Rush]

     I think that you will ultimately find that AMA headquarters and officials will not relinquish the decision making process regarding weather based cancellation to anyone. They have stated in the past that they are the stewards of the property and responsible and liable for anything safety related. They have indicated that safety related weather conditions like thunderheads, lightening, tornado warnings, , high wind advisories, etc. would be grounds for ceasing operations.

After a couple of us got zapped, the stunt event management decided to wait awhile.  Weather was forecast to improve later, and it did. 

[Howard Rush]

I don't think she even replies to their emails.

Brenda has replied promptly to my emails. 

[Crist Rigotti]

Thanks for the update Mark.

[Joseph Patterson]

   Thanks Mark for letting us know what's going on. I know you will do a thorough job of seeing this through to the end. Hopefully it will result in a clear understanding and some protocols that would prevent this from happening again.
     Doug