Author Topic: 2022 Nationals CLPA Coverage...... (Read 15819 times)

Motorman · « **Reply #200 on:** July 25, 2022, 09:45:09 AM »

You could schedule something for the back up day that doesn't really exist, like combined class winners free style. That would hold the day open.

Motorman

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #201 on:** July 25, 2022, 10:06:20 AM »

Saturday: World Cup team practice.

Joseph Patterson · « **Reply #202 on:** July 25, 2022, 10:48:52 AM »

I don't like the idea of permanently making all in one day Top 20/Top 5/walker cup fly-off. It would require about a maximum of 41 judged flights. In my opinion the quality of judging would probably suffer. Over half our judging corps are older men. You couple our aged judging corps with hot humid weather then optimum results would suffer. Heck, judging that many flights is equally rough on younger persons. We should only have to resort to this on an emergency basis. I understand that most competitors would probably like to wrap it all up in one day because each competitor would be flying just 2-5 flights total depending on where they finished in qualifying.
Paul W in his talk to Yolanda said AMA does not have contingency dates set aside for events, if I understand his thread. I believe if we give up that Sat. date resulting in a shortened contest, then we could be boxing ourselves in reducing our options. If we keep the the schedule as it is we at least have the option to do a Friday all in one if the weather on the Saturday is reliably assured of being unflyable due to thunder cell, high winds, or powerful down pours. Also, if the weather does not permit flying on Friday, or only part of the TOP 20 gets done, we would still have Sat. to combine everything.
Now if the plans in the future do in fact involve shortening the contest by a day, then Tuesday and Wed. would be the start of OPEN/ADVANCE, and Thursday would Top 20 semi-finals. Friday would be Top 5/walker cup fly-off as has been mentioned here earlier. I'M being kind of remedial here. Now I see where you could use Thursday and Friday like I used Friday and SAT. above. The CL/N-30/OTS events would have to be moved to Monday, because some of these fliers compete in ADVANCE and OPEN.
I really believe the schedule should remain the same. The problem as we all know was AMA's premature decision to end competition when less than another hour of waiting would have made completion possible. Also, there was enough gloom and doom forecasting that probably helped push AMA's decision, as well as a few other reasons influencing the final call.
Doug
Doug

bob whitney · « **Reply #203 on:** July 25, 2022, 10:53:41 AM »

First let me say ,dont ever give up any day at the Nats. one year we (Racing ) did not have our normal fox racing on the beginning Sunday of the nats .the next year we found out that our circle had been given to the Scale group and we never got that day back.

i may P--s of a few people but need to speak my piece as you all have.i have known Brenda and Melvin longer than most of my stunt Family.i worked 4 years under her as Racing ED and raced under Merlvin when he was Racing ED,she always made sure we had what we needed to get our racing done .more than once we flew past the 5 oclock dead line until dark to get finished .

her job is to over see ALL controlline events at the nats not just Stunt.

i was not there and not privi to the whole thing as to weather Brenda made a Bad decision. Yes the decision affected a lot of people .i hope to hear her side of it .if she made a bad decision than shame on her ,but if we look back over her years as CD she has done a very good job for U/C over all. RAD

Derek Barry · « **Reply #204 on:** July 25, 2022, 10:58:13 AM »

Quote from: bob whitney on July 25, 2022, 10:53:41 AM

First let me say ,dont ever give up any day at the Nats. one year we (Racing ) did not have our normal fox racing on the beginning Sunday of the nats .the next year we found out that our circle had been given to the Scale group and we never got that day back.

i may P--s of a few people but need to speak my piece as you all have.i have known Brenda and Melvin longer than most of my stunt Family.i worked 4 years under her as Racing ED and raced under Merlvin when he was Racing ED,she always made sure we had what we needed to get our racing done .more than once we flew past the 5 oclock dead line until dark to get finished .

her job is to over see ALL controlline events at the nats not just Stunt.

i was not there and not privi to the whole thing as to weather Brenda made a Bad decision. Yes the decision affected a lot of people .i hope to hear her side of it .if she made a bad decision than shame on her ,but if we look back over her years as CD she has done a very good job for U/C over all. RAD

It has become apparent in this thread that your group (RAD) is the only one she has any respect for. You guys can have her! The rest of us want someone else.

Derek

Paul Walker · « **Reply #205 on:** July 25, 2022, 11:07:58 AM »

Quote from: Matt Colan on July 25, 2022, 08:39:51 AM

Doing the top 5 in the evening right after top 20 might make for some of the best flying. The weather in the evening in Muncie is usually spectacular. It would also allow the buffer in case Friday night is a washout, and we could fly Saturday

Just a thought

Another option might be to fly top 20, then fly a round of final 5 after that, either right after or towards the evening. Then fly two rounds the next day.

If the weather for the final 2 rounds looks to be real bad, do 3 rounds after top 20. If the weather is less than desirable following top 20, do 3 the following day. This creates options, and doesn't give up a day.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #206 on:** July 25, 2022, 12:32:33 PM »

Quote from: Paul Walker on July 25, 2022, 11:07:58 AM

Another option might be to fly top 20, then fly a round of final 5 after that, either right after or towards the evening. Then fly two rounds the next day.

If the weather for the final 2 rounds looks to be real bad, do 3 rounds after top 20. If the weather is less than desirable following top 20, do 3 the following day. This creates options, and doesn't give up a day.

I agree. This was my first suggestion. With the technology we have today, it's much easier to predict what the weather might do. That being said, I think the forecast for Saturday was pretty good all week, then it wasn't...

Derek

Joseph Patterson · « **Reply #207 on:** July 25, 2022, 12:54:35 PM »

Quote from: Paul Walker on July 25, 2022, 11:07:58 AM

Another option might be to fly top 20, then fly a round of final 5 after that, either right after or towards the evening. Then fly two rounds the next day.

If the weather for the final 2 rounds looks to be real bad, do 3 rounds after top 20. If the weather is less than desirable following top 20, do 3 the following day. This creates options, and doesn't give up a day.

That's a good idea too Paul! I agree that it's not good to give up a day that has always been there. History shows you never get it back!
Doug

Doug Moon · « **Reply #208 on:** July 25, 2022, 01:22:16 PM »

Quote from: Matt Colan on July 25, 2022, 08:39:51 AM

Doing the top 5 in the evening right after top 20 might make for some of the best flying. The weather in the evening in Muncie is usually spectacular. It would also allow the buffer in case Friday night is a washout, and we could fly Saturday

Just a thought

YES! Evening flying in Muncie is worth the drive alone.

This could be very interesting!

Matt Colan · « **Reply #209 on:** July 25, 2022, 01:41:50 PM »

Quote from: Doug Moon on July 25, 2022, 01:22:16 PM

YES! Evening flying in Muncie is worth the drive alone.

This could be very interesting!

Friday evening when Dave Brett and I were flying, Brett said, “this is too easy.” I agreed with that assessment. It was some of the best flying weather! I wish I had flown my last flight on Friday night, Saturday morning, it was pretty good!

Paul Walker · « **Reply #210 on:** July 25, 2022, 02:40:03 PM »

Quote from: Doug Moon on July 25, 2022, 01:22:16 PM

YES! Evening flying in Muncie is worth the drive alone.

This could be very interesting!

But then there was Sunday evening this past week. Heavy wind and rain. Yes, some are nice, others not so. Heck, even Dan postphoned flying the jet stunter because of evening weather.

It's a crap shoot....

Steven Kientz · « **Reply #211 on:** July 25, 2022, 03:17:01 PM »

Why not start the official program on Tuesday and move the unofficial contests to Friday evening, Saturday morning. You might have more people for those contests after the stress of the official program is over. We could as a group celebrate the winners rather than everyone packing up and rushing out of town. Just my 2 cents worth as I have no dog in this fight, at least not yet.

Shorts,David · « **Reply #212 on:** July 25, 2022, 03:33:04 PM »

Quote from: Steven Kientz on July 25, 2022, 03:17:01 PM

Why not start the official program on Tuesday and move the unofficial contests to Friday evening, Saturday morning. You might have more people for those contests after the stress of the official program is over. We could as a group celebrate the winners rather than everyone packing up and rushing out of town. Just my 2 cents worth as I have no dog in this fight, at least not yet.

I am interested in moving the non officials to Friday evening and Saturday as well. Much better to cancel unofficial than official. Also allows the banquet or barbecue. In the old days half a was flown at the end of the nats. Don't bring half a back, but classic etc. Might be more enjoyed with official events out of the way. 2 cents.

bob whitney · « **Reply #213 on:** July 25, 2022, 03:55:08 PM »

that sounds like a good IDEA .it would give Sun And Mon for practice

Derek Barry · « **Reply #214 on:** July 25, 2022, 04:02:14 PM »

Moving the unofficial events to Friday will end the unofficial events. Sorry guys, that just isn't a viable option.

Derek

Trostle · « **Reply #215 on:** July 25, 2022, 04:51:50 PM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on July 25, 2022, 04:02:14 PM

Moving the unofficial events to Friday will end the unofficial events. Sorry guys, that just isn't a viable option.

Derek

Why?

Keith

bob whitney · « **Reply #216 on:** July 25, 2022, 04:55:16 PM »

YES,WHY??

Derek Barry · « **Reply #217 on:** July 25, 2022, 05:08:00 PM »

Because nobody will show up to fly them at the end of the week, especially if it could be canceled depending on what happens in the main event.

They have to be completed before the official events begin.

Derek

Joseph Patterson · « **Reply #218 on:** July 25, 2022, 05:20:32 PM »

Quote from: bob whitney on July 25, 2022, 03:55:08 PM

that sounds like a good IDEA .it would give Sun And Mon for practice

They have Sunday and Monday for practice now. Putting the unofficial events on Fri. and Sat probably not a good idea because so many of the volunteers that run those events also work in the official events and may not be willing to stay. In addition, a good many of the guys competing in the unofficial events also compete in ADVANCE and Open official events then leave for home, so they are not there all week. Another reason as Derek has said they would not show. There is something to be said about all these un-official events being at the front of the schedule. There is a togetherness and comradeship with the mingling of these guys and gals with each other and with the Open guys during the days leading up to the qualifying days. You have more competitors, more aircraft, more fellowship resulting in a happy inspiring fun time. If we put the unofficial events at the end of the schedule most all the official event volunteers will be gone.
Doug

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #219 on:** July 25, 2022, 05:29:40 PM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on July 25, 2022, 04:02:14 PM

Moving the unofficial events to Friday will end the unofficial events. Sorry guys, that just isn't a viable option.

Derek

Why is that? If it means AMA would take the day they I agree but if it is not then I think having them at the end would enhance participation. I am not including Advanced and intermediate as "unofficial" for this discussion. They are a separate issue. I am thinking of the Classics and Profile which we don't offer now. A lot of fliers will not fly these events before Open. However, after Open is finished, I am sure that there would be some that would fly both.

I think the goal in redesigning the format should be #1 Hold the days, #2 try and not spread any one event out over any more days than necessary. #3 don't kill any judges. I really like the idea of using the evening. If nothing more than for unofficial events.

One thing that has been suggested is to fly qualifying in full rounds instead of groups. 2 each day with one flight per judge set. I think that will get you a better top 20. I know that seems to go against #3 but it is no different than two rounds at a large local.

My #2 has been one of my complaints about the NATs since I returned to PA. It's format makes it difficult to attend.

I was hoping that this would spark it's own thread but, since the Brenda bashing has run it's course, hear is as good a place as any. As the Executive Council does it's thing how about making the discussions as public as possible. Who is on the council currently, I tried in vain to find the list on the PAMPA web site.

Ken

Steven Kientz · « **Reply #220 on:** July 25, 2022, 06:08:54 PM »

It would not increase the amount of time (AMA gives until Saturday now). It just moves the official flying schedule up one day. I probably wasn't clear about the unofficial events, leave Beginner and Intermediate on the Sunday before, fly OTS and Classic after the official contest is over. I think you might be surprised at how many people would stay to fly. Most are checking out of hotels on Saturday morning anyway, fly Classic, OTS late Friday afternoon to early evening. Then people can still catch flights/drive out of town on Saturday.
I can't see people that currently fly OTS/Classic scurrying out of town right after the Walker Cup. As someone said earlier in the thread "people plan vacations and spend $$$ to attend the NATS" so why leave if you have the opportunity to fly/ spend time with friends you may only see once a year?

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #221 on:** July 25, 2022, 06:37:49 PM »

As I see things, you have been running the Stunt NATS the same way for a good number of years. 20 or more?? You have had to make some adjustments on the fly due to weather and such, but always got most of the program in and the Walker Cup awarded because of the length of time that you have had to do it in. It has been just in the last two years, where a decision by some one in the AMA caused the contest to be cut short. The way it is now, you have some time early in the week for those who have traveled a great distance to rest up and acclimate to a ne time zone. You also have time for the un official events that a lot of contestants like to fly in addition to Advanced or Open to make it worth the drive and expense. During that time, many of you can work in some much needed practice to get machines dialed in for the area's conditions and altitude. Add in a lot of socializing that most of you really look forward to. This year and last year, some one made rash decisions, and did not take full advantage to the time allotted to give every possible chance for the contest to be completed. Last year it was because of threatening weather that never occurred, and this year just flat out ignoring the possibility that 2 hours worth of flying time would be available before sundown and that decision was made at noon! Everything and everyone was in place, and all that was needed was 2 hours and that became possible by 4pmor so? It's daylight until almost 9pm. Every effort should be made between sun up and sun down for the event to be held, regardless of what one person wants to do. Weather in the midwest is unpredictable. If you want to know what the weather will be like 10 hours from now you really won't know until that time. Guessing, and that is all it is, guessing, that things won't improve is the mistake. You have to be there and let the time elapse, and be ready to fly if some one's guess is incorrect, which the last two years has been the case.. In short, I would think REALLY hard about making any changes. Most serious NATS competitors are used to the drill you have now, and in my view is relatively relaxed and low pressure. Trying to compress the event to run it off in as short a time as possible is a mistake. You have all week to fly, so take that whole week to fly! It's out National Championship, it's worth the time and effort.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Brett Buck · « **Reply #222 on:** July 25, 2022, 06:45:41 PM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on July 25, 2022, 05:29:40 PM

One thing that has been suggested is to fly qualifying in full rounds instead of groups. 2 each day with one flight per judge set. I think that will get you a better top 20. I know that seems to go against #3 but it is no different than two rounds at a large local.

I am not even sure what this means. Surely you don't think we should try to fly all 40ish entrants in one group?

Brett

Brett Buck · « **Reply #223 on:** July 25, 2022, 06:55:14 PM »

I would also point out that the current format would have worked out perfectly fine this year, we had a plan that would have been entirely acceptable and gotten in all the flights - had it not been short-circuited. I don't think the format is particularly the problem, it's OK, we just have to stop giving up at the first sign of trouble (or giving up based on weather forecasts 4-6 hours out. ). We have had similar interruptions on both Top 20 and Top 5 days in the past, it caused some delay, but otherwise worked out. I can recall lightning delays, including a nearby lightning strike during one of my Top 20 day flights in maybe 2015.

This particular weather incident *was* undeniably more dramatic than any of the past incidents, maybe that pre-loaded everything. I lived in various tornado alley locales for 20 years as a kid, I can't recall ever seeing a more distinctive wall cloud scudding across the ground even on the worst day in Kansas. If I had a guess, they all got scared at the degree of carnage and jumped the gun on this decision.

Brett

RC Storick · « **Reply #224 on:** July 25, 2022, 07:08:15 PM »

We could always put a call into ALASKA or wherever it is and them to turn the HARPP off.

frank williams · « **Reply #225 on:** July 25, 2022, 07:16:45 PM »

Did no one see the weather front coming for Saturday?

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #226 on:** July 25, 2022, 07:34:31 PM »

Most the forecasting I saw said it was going to be a pretty nice day with a chance of some light rain showers. Then when it did start to grow it appeared on radar to travel mostly north of us with just a narrow tail possibly sweeping through us. The storm grew out of proportion rapidly with little warning.
As to last year, the forecast WAS pretty accurate. The conditions were bad and DID NOT improve on Saturday. Jim Aron was still on site that Saturday and said it was totally unflyable. If we could have stayed this time we surely would have finished. But it would still have been a close call through a narrow window. Since these events seem more frequent both in Muncie and at home I for one think it smart to make some adjustments so we don’t get caught short again by man or weather. We have the time. We have half the entry we used to. We should be able to use our allotted time more wisely.

Curt D Contrata · « **Reply #227 on:** July 25, 2022, 07:47:29 PM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on July 25, 2022, 04:02:14 PM

Moving the unofficial events to Friday will end the unofficial events. Sorry guys, that just isn't a viable option.

Derek

I completely agree, for so many reasons. Let’s have them “possibly get a chance to fly” after all the official events have concluded and everyone has gone home.

A bad idea.

Curt

Allen Goff · « **Reply #228 on:** July 25, 2022, 09:04:34 PM »

FYI, Saturday late afternoon in our area of middle Indiana we had tornado warnings, 3+ inches of rain and registered 77 mph strength line winds. The big tent and several of the blue and white tents were destroyed. Sunday wasn’t any better, rain all day.
In all the negative post on the Nats, the main issue should always be safety.
Blessings

Bob Mears · « **Reply #229 on:** July 25, 2022, 09:46:30 PM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on July 25, 2022, 10:58:13 AM

It has become apparent in this thread that your group (RAD) is the only one she has any respect for. You guys can have her! The rest of us want someone else.

Derek

Sounds like a great opportunity for you to take a week of your vacation, unpaid, run the show, and show everyone how wonderfully talented you are and can even overcome the weather. They even have a pond for you to stroll around on when you're finished so you can baste in your accomplishments.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #230 on:** July 25, 2022, 11:01:44 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on July 25, 2022, 06:45:41 PM

I am not even sure what this means. Surely you don't think we should try to fly all 40ish entrants in one group?

Brett

That is exactly what I am saying but my post implied that I would be asking a judge to score 80 flights in one day. I don't think my life insurance would cover that. What I am suggesting is to throw out the "top 5 move on out of each group" and replace it with the top 20 from all groups. Each will have the same number of flights before each judge and everyone will move up a place when someone drops out, not just the ones in that group.
It is just an alternative. Qualifying is not really the problem here anyway. It is the overall scheduling.

Ken

Reptoid · « **Reply #231 on:** July 26, 2022, 12:46:35 AM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on July 25, 2022, 10:58:13 AM

It has become apparent in this thread that your group (RAD) is the only one she has any respect for. You guys can have her! The rest of us want someone else.

Derek

Nobody in the Combat group, MACA SID (1/2A, Fast, Slow, F2D, and F2D fast) has any problems with Brenda that I'm aware of and she is the US Team manager for Poland this year, so maybe lighten up it's a very difficult job (ask Howard about 1995). Bye the way Brenda does NOT work for AMA. She is a volunteer just like those before who served as C/L CD. How about YOU volunteer?

Derek Barry · « **Reply #232 on:** July 26, 2022, 04:19:29 AM »

Quote from: Reptoid on July 26, 2022, 12:46:35 AM

Nobody in the Combat group, MACA SID (1/2A, Fast, Slow, F2D, and F2D fast) has any problems with Brenda that I'm aware of and she is the US Team manager for Poland this year, so maybe lighten up it's a very difficult job (ask Howard about 1995). Bye the way Brenda does NOT work for AMA. She is a volunteer just like those before who served as C/L CD. How about YOU volunteer?

Really? I know full well that many in Cobat dislike her, and for the same reasons. The only time she shows up at the LPad is to harass people who are trying to unload their aircraft in the horseshoe.

For you information I have volunteered during multiple Nats, and one time, I came back a month later, and made the12 hour dive to ED the US Team Trials. I never left before the Contest was complete, on any of those occasions.

You are correct, she is the Team Manager. I happen to know all of the F2B Team Members, and to say that they are unimpressed with her performance thus far would be a huge understatement. I don't think she even replies to their emails. I'll put this in layman's terms so you can understand. She Sucks!

Derek

Paul Walker · « **Reply #233 on:** July 26, 2022, 04:38:24 AM »

Quote from: Allen Goff on July 25, 2022, 09:04:34 PM

FYI, Saturday late afternoon in our area of middle Indiana we had tornado warnings, 3+ inches of rain and registered 77 mph strength line winds. The big tent and several of the blue and white tents were destroyed. Sunday wasn’t any better, rain all day.
In all the negative post on the Nats, the main issue should always be safety.
Blessings

With all due respect Alan, after the awards were handed out we returned to our 5th wheel by the collapsed tent. It wasn't long until the L pad was empty. Went outside to look at the tent, and discovered the wind had subsided, and the RC Sailplanes were already back in the air. It was completely flyable. A bit later Tim Just was at the L pad looking for Howards wind sock. We ended up flying his plane until dark. Even with safety, the contest could have and should have continued.
The next day, it started raining at about 2:30 pm when we were pulling out.

Gives me SERIOUS doubt about ever coming again, driving all those miles, spending all that money to have something like that happen once again.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #234 on:** July 26, 2022, 04:41:24 AM »

I think some of the weather details are getting convoluted.

At 2:00 pm we were all on site, and it was very windy. 20 mph with gusts to 35. It was never a sustained 20mph for more than 1 minute, so it was still within our rules to fly. At 2:30 The pilots and judges agreed to wait another hour, possibly 2 to see if conditions improved. 2:35 Brenda shut us down, told us we were done, and left.

All of you on here defending her have obviously not put yourself into the shoes of those who spend hundreds of hours building, finishing, trimming and flying their planes. They spent thousands of dollars, and drove hundreds, or thousands of miles to be there. The completed 5 rounds of fierce competition to have the opportunity to fly for the Walker Cup. They had all that ripped away from them because ONE PERSON was ready to leave. If you find this behavior acceptable, I hope the same thing happens in your event next year, because you obviously lack perspective.

Derek

Derek Barry · « **Reply #235 on:** July 26, 2022, 04:52:27 AM »

And like Paul, I didn't leave Muncie until Sunday. At 4:30 pm it was stunt heaven. I would have gone back to the field, if I hadn't been packing for the trip home.

Derek

Allen Goff · « **Reply #236 on:** July 26, 2022, 05:51:17 AM »

Thanks …………I Would never wish bad luck to anyone for any reason. Have a great day.

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #237 on:** July 26, 2022, 06:34:23 AM »

It's been 20+ years since I flew at the NATS but things haven't changed that much since then. I don't think there is a problem with the format, there is plenty of time to shift things around if good weather information is available (this is the big issue). Some stuff could be flown in the late afternoon or evening if needed. The ED should make this call based on available information and contestant input.

Seem the real problem is communications and chain of command. I think PAMPA officials should meet with AMA and get a procedure worked out for this type of situation were the ED's decide if the event should be called or delayed. There needs to be a succession plan to cover how a CD or ED's responsibilities are transferred in the event that someone feels they can't stay and finish their duties. Anyone can have a reason to need to leave but continuance of responsibilities is needed.

It has not been stated why Brenda made the call she made. PAMPA needs to get to the bottom of this and correct any miscommunication issue for the future events. This should help all CL events and allow the best chance of completion for the contestants.

Best, DennisT

Matt Colan · « **Reply #238 on:** July 26, 2022, 06:57:06 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Toth on July 26, 2022, 06:34:23 AM

It has not been stated why Brenda made the call she made. PAMPA needs to get to the bottom of this and correct any miscommunication issue for the future events. This should help all CL events and allow the best chance of completion for the contestants.

Best, DennisT

Brenda was ready to go home because she had a 12 hour drive……

Just thinking out loud, is there any reason why we couldn’t have finished without Brenda being there?

Derek Barry · « **Reply #239 on:** July 26, 2022, 07:26:23 AM »

Quote from: Matt Colan on July 26, 2022, 06:57:06 AM

Brenda was ready to go home because she had a 12 hour drive……

Just thinking out loud, is there any reason why we couldn’t have finished without Brenda being there?

Because those are the rules. She has to be on site for all CL Nats activities. She is the CL Contest Director.

Derek

Derek Barry · « **Reply #240 on:** July 26, 2022, 07:29:40 AM »

Quote from: Allen Goff on July 26, 2022, 05:51:17 AM

Thanks …………I Would never wish bad luck to anyone for any reason. Have a great day.

Allen, I have the utmost respect for you. If you're referring to my comments, that were directed at those supporting Brenda, I'm sorry you feel that way. I was not wishing bad luck on anyone. I do not believe this situation has anything to do with luck. It was a deliberate action, and if those in other events think it was an acceptable decision, I just offered for them to try it out themselves, and to get back to me on it.

Derek

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #241 on:** July 26, 2022, 08:22:19 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Toth on July 26, 2022, 06:34:23 AM

It's been 20+ years since I flew at the NATS but things haven't changed that much since then. I don't think there is a problem with the format, there is plenty of time to shift things around if good weather information is available (this is the big issue). Some stuff could be flown in the late afternoon or evening if needed. The ED should make this call based on available information and contestant input.

Seem the real problem is communications and chain of command. I think PAMPA officials should meet with AMA and get a procedure worked out for this type of situation were the ED's decide if the event should be called or delayed. There needs to be a succession plan to cover how a CD or ED's responsibilities are transferred in the event that someone feels they can't stay and finish their duties. Anyone can have a reason to need to leave but continuance of responsibilities should automatically pass. I am disappointed in the AMA for not having a plan and PAMPA for not demanding one.

It has not been stated why Brenda made the call she made. PAMPA needs to get to the bottom of this and correct any miscommunication issue for the future events. This should help all CL events and allow the best chance of completion for the contestants.

Best, DennisT

You have hit on what should be #1 on PAMPA's list. Although I disagree on the format, it is for other reasons having nothing to do with what happened Saturday. I am ex-military and continuance of command responsibilities is both automatic and known by all involved. I never quite understood #1 why it was not John's responsibility to make the call and #2 why John did not automatically assume Brenda's responsibilities in her absence. I assume that John is a CD and as such having a CD on site is all *we* needed. In any case there were probably several CD's in the crowd that could have taken over. If the rules at that level preclude that then we need a rule change.

I am not quite as damning as Derek on a personal level, maybe there was a reason she abandoned her post, but his points are 100% on target and the fact that she is a volunteer makes it even worse. I read Paul's post and I agree. He would be missed, and I wouldn't even be noticed but the feeling is the same. Unless this is fixed, I will not be attending in the future and that is a life changing decision for me.

Ken

Shorts,David · « **Reply #242 on:** July 26, 2022, 09:34:40 AM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on July 26, 2022, 07:26:23 AM

Because those are the rules. She has to be on site for all CL Nats activities. She is the CL Contest Director.

Derek

Perhaps we just start with that rule. Get Brenda an out so she doesn't have to wait. Perhaps AMA can appoint a second for her in event of delays or weather. Like someone sitting in the office, or rc sailplane cd can oversee in emergency. As a start

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #243 on:** July 26, 2022, 12:15:42 PM »

John is a cd, I’m a cd, there had to be half a dozen on site. It’s a matter of being the chosen one I guess. I don’t know that having a stand-in has been considered- maybe it should be. However had that brief window of weather not opened Saturday then we be in the same boat. That’s why I think we need to start and end sooner.

Dave

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #244 on:** July 26, 2022, 01:50:53 PM »

This is an interesting discussion, but we still need to hear from PAMPA as to what transpired.

PAMPA is supposed to represent our interests with AMA. They need to meet with AMA, bring them the concerns and get some answers and report back to the membership. They need to get AMA to agree on a procedure for future events. Like I said before anyone may need to leave the event for whatever reason. That's ok, life happens, but we need to have a plan how to complete our events.

Best, DennisT

peabody · « **Reply #245 on:** July 26, 2022, 02:00:51 PM »

There are a couple of alternatives:

DO NOT participate in the "traditional" Nats. No CLPA.

1) Sanction an event called the CLPA National Chapionships on the "L" pad in, say, September. Better weather and no pressure to vacate. The Academy would probably not provide any funding, but workarounds are possible.

2) Hold the event at an off Muncie site....there are several active clubs that have the space and accessability to do this. Rotate the site....

The AMA might not even notice.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #246 on:** July 26, 2022, 02:24:21 PM »

Quote from: peabody on July 26, 2022, 02:00:51 PM

There are a couple of alternatives:

DO NOT participate in the "traditional" Nats. No CLPA.

1) Sanction an event called the CLPA National Chapionships on the "L" pad in, say, September. Better weather and no pressure to vacate. The Academy would probably not provide any funding, but workarounds are possible.

2) Hold the event at an off Muncie site....there are several active clubs that have the space and accessability to do this. Rotate the site....

The AMA might not even notice.

If it were that simple, I am sure it would have happened ages ago. Problem with the AMA is that we need them, they don't need us. BTW, school starts around here in August. Unless we want to dump our Juniors and Seniors we are stuck with Late May through early August. I think we really had it good with the Navy.

Ken

Tom Luciano · « **Reply #247 on:** July 26, 2022, 03:11:19 PM »

Quote from: Frank Imbriaco on July 23, 2022, 05:52:17 AM

Congrats and more to my kid brother and practice buddy, Tom Luciano who just won Advanced. I've known him since he was a toddler; having flown with his father , Mike and brother, Michael since the mid -sixties as members of the Union Model Airplane Club Union , NJ.
. If there was ever a more deserving winner of a model airplane contest, I've yet to find out. Because Tom is a quiet guy, you won't hear much or anything in the way of complaining from him.
While it's not my place to tell you of the obstacles life has thrown in his way, I can say that most guys would've reeled up and gone on to something else long ago.

Sorry Frank I didnt see this. Thank you for the kind words..

Tom

Doug Moon · « **Reply #248 on:** July 26, 2022, 03:28:47 PM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on July 26, 2022, 02:24:21 PM

>>>>I think we really had it good with the Navy.

Ken

I wasn't there but heard many many stories. While it sounds fun I respectfully disagree and the other competitors did too and created PAMPA.

I would thin PAMPA could ask the AMA if using an onsite ED in place of the overall CD in a very one off odd ball case like this would be acceptable. If not, why not, and how can it be made to be acceptable.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #249 on:** July 26, 2022, 03:46:41 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Toth on July 26, 2022, 01:50:53 PM

This is an interesting discussion, but we still need to hear from PAMPA as to what transpired.

PAMPA is supposed to represent our interests with AMA. They need to meet with AMA, bring them the concerns and get some answers and report back to the membership. They need to get AMA to agree on a procedure for future events. Like I said before anyone may need to leave the event for whatever reason. That's ok, life happens, but we need to have a plan how to complete our events.

Best, DennisT

Paul, Matt, and myself are all on the PAMPA EC. We are telling you exactly what happened. Most of the other EC members were there, and witnessed the same thing. We are all in agreement that this should not ever happen again. What else would you like to know?

Derek