stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Dave_Trible on July 10, 2022, 06:36:03 AM
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The 2022 episode of our stunt Nats is once again upon us. We have been eagerly or anxiously preparing for the annual adventure. Well if you built it, begged it or borrowed it-bring it! It's show time!
For those who are unable to attend we begin this ritual thread for you to follow the goings-on. I will contribute as I am able and ask others to join on as well to help paint the Nats picture. Since this will become a part of the permanent Nats record to be read in future decades I ask you keep it reasonably clean, mostly on topic. I know that is a big ask from this crowd. I'm confident Robert (Sparky) will have the video program working and maybe others. This thread can in no way work at that speed is not intended to compete. I may be able to go more in depth at certain times. It has served as a useful source of on site information to the contestants on a daily basis. We will attempt to post things like flight orders and any relevant information as it happens. For this reason it has always been our policy NOT to post scoreboards during flight rounds to eliminate any possible complaint of tainting those who try NOT to look at them during the rounds as they occur.
Let's all have a safe trip to Muncie! Remember to NEVER drink the water!
Officials, Contestants and Fans: LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!!
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Thanks Dave for doing this each year. It’s much appreciated.
And a few photos would help paint the pictures. 😉
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Thanks Dave, I appreciate it as well!
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I look forward to the pics/photos. Also the reports. D>K
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Thanks Dave, always enjoy your annual coverage. y1
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I arrived last night but was a little too tuckered out to get to the field. Today it is Orestes and myself. They didn’t get the concrete pads put in out in the grass- it will be the plywood circles again. AMA workers are getting stuff to the LPad and set up. It’s a little breezy here but otherwise nice. We are offloading the Walker Cup into the trailer to get it out of Orestes car....
Dave
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As per typical in Muncie, mid afternoon brought rain. This one turned into a day-long drizzle and will turn into heavy rain late. We did get to fly a handful before it got gusty and wet. Orestes folded around noon but had been out early. No other flying on the LPad save for a couple racing guys down on #1 since their regular site was being used for scale today. A group of combat fliers had it going over in their encampment. Before I left I got a few pics over at McCool...
Orestes showed me his new Suburban. He had already left Miami when the transmission failed in his car. It was going to be about 15 DAYS to get it fixed....he just bought a new one yesterday....$74gs!
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I don’t know why the photos are rotated. They don’t look the way on my phone.. feel free to correct.
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That red bull looks great. Maybe enter it in stunt too.
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74g's???!!!!!!
daem, think I am going to keep my '04 Blazer and '14 Focus for a LONG time......................
Carl
Nice pics by the way
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Where is the trash talking and all the smack downing like there used to be!!?? I really miss that, some of you guys were pretty good at it!
Looking forward to your play by play, Dave. You're good at that also!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Is the Red Bull scale model Allen Goff’s?
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Is the Red Bull scale model Allen Goff’s?
Denny I don't know. I know the Neuport bipe is.
Dave
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Overall today was a good practice day..About a quarter of the pilots showed up by the evening session. It was mostly cloudy but nice winds up until about noon, then the breeze virtually died after 6:00 pm- finally changing directions 180 degrees the last half hour before dark. I had a good session teamed up with Steve Millet this morning and then Bob McDonald this evening. It was nice to see Chris and Joanie Cox out of Covid banishment and return to the Lpad.
Tomorrow is Beginner and Intermediate stunt events down on the grass. Two issues about that: The forecast calls for rain, 99 percent chance, 4 hours or more. Lets hope the events don't become washed out. The other issue. I was asked about a week ago to track down the trophy guy and grab our set of trophies. This was to happen on Friday. Well I had my morning flying. Then went to eat and rest a little.....I woke up at 6:30 pm and had totally forgotten about the trophy guy. It didn't dawn on me till I was having breakfast this morning. The trophy guy hasn't returned my calls today so it may be I can't get them till Monday. If you win a trophy tomorrow and won't be around Monday then we will have to mail it to you. Totally my brain fart- I apologize......The stuff I forget these days bothers me.....
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Easy fix on sideways pictures. Click on link below picture and when it comes up hit the rotate icon. D>K
Now Dave are you developing dementia? I know you are younger than me, my problem is I fall asleep with out warning. H^^
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John I prefer to think of it as old-timers, otherwise known as CRS ( can't remember sh$t). Take care my friend...
Dave
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It's 7:00 am. As I look out the hotel window it is pouring. A look at radar and forecasting there looks to be a window between about 9:00 and noon that MAY be possible to fly. The grass will be quite wet. Take care NOT to get stuck down there. In the past Classic and Old Time got moved to the LPad when the grass was awash. Don't know if that is an option today for Beginner and Intermediate. I will meander out to the field soon.
Dave
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Is the Red Bull scale model Allen Goff’s?
Yes Denny, actually it's Allen's and Mike McHenry's team scale entry. Mike flew a nearly flawless flight with it that ended up close to a perfect score and I felt privileged to be one of the judges for it!! We wished it could have been videoed. Could have been a great training video for scale people. H^^
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"The stuff I forget these days bothers me....."
ahhh forget about it .....
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The events happened! There was a break in the weather for about two hours and allowed Intermediate and Beginner to be flown in somewhat gusty wind. The entry was extremely light- just three open class pilots in Intermediate- likely due to the weather forecast. I couldn't follow Beginner over there but it looked like they may have had five or six entries. Congratulations to those who came and braved the weather. All I can offer as to final standings is that Dave Rigotti took the win in Intermediate. Maybe someone else can fill in more details.
No sooner finished a pretty mighty storm front came over and dumped a lot of rain. It looks like there may be no more flying or practice today since this cluster is forecast to go on till morning. In looking ahead to the coming week it looks the daily forecast is wind, wind, followed by more wind. First day of Qualifying calls for 17 mph with 33 mph gusts. This is right at the cusp of halting the flying. Only a little less the rest of the week. Power will be key to survival.
Dave
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Intermediate winner Dave Rigotti.
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Intermediate winner Dave Rigotti.
Isn't that Crist?
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Isn't that Crist?
No, they come in two's. I think Crist is flying advanced.
Ken
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Intermediate Stunt results:
1. Dave Righotti
2. Jay Williams
3 Rick Bollinger
Pilot’s Choice: Dave Righotti
Best Brodak Airplane: Rick Bollinger
Judges: Doug Patterson, Steve Smith
Tabulators: Michelle Lee, Kathleen Patterson
Pit Boss: Vince Bohde
Coaches/critique: Todd Lee, Bob McDonald, Bob Storick
We had about a 90 minute window without rain & lightning which gave us enough time to get it done. Many thanks to everybody for keeping it moving.
Special thanks to Brodak for sponsoring the awards, providing the scoresheets, scoreboards & pull test scales.
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Nothing like being twin brothers. Congrats to Dave for his win. Now go show brother how to do the pattern. D>K
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Today's activity is winding down with evening practice for those who didn't hang around to fly after the pilot's meeting and Appearance judging. The weather was really quite good most of the day so if you didn't fly you couldn't blame the weather. John and Michelle has things rolling along without a hitch, the meeting went quick and smooth and the pilots all had their flight orders in a very timely manner. I want to thank Mark Weiss and Mike Eber for the major chore of sorting through around sixty airplanes and trying to give each a sensible appearance score. Congrats to Sparky! He'd been close a few times before and today he topped the plateau. The amount of work to achieve this prize is hard to appreciate.
SO we are underway. I believe Matt Colan will jump in here at some point with a link to his cashe of photos from today. He was going to the PAMPA facebook page with them, then this link from here.
Tomorrow looks to be the last day of really nice weather before the wind begins and so Classic, Nostalgia 30 and Old Time should be a fun day. Given the tremendous rains yesterday the ground around the grass fields is muck. John had made the wise choice to bring these events up to the Lpad with Classic/N30 on circle 1 and Old Time on 2. Circles 3 and 4 will be available for practice for everyone else. That is about all I have for today..
Dave
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No, they come in two's. I think Crist is flying advanced.
Ken
So, the dude in the photo looks just like Crist, are they twins?
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As promised, here is the link to appearance judging. The privacy is set to public, so nobody should have any issues viewing them
Weather was weird this morning, great in the evening. Some really great flying and pretty airplanes all over the circles today
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.5655955701115407&type=3
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So, the dude in the photo looks just like Crist, are they twins?
Hi Wayne;
Yes, twins! All the years we have known Crist and he never mentioned having a twin brother. I became aware of this a couple of years ago. If I remember the story correctly, Dave came late back into modeling after he retired, and flies speed and stunt. He came to one of our speed events last fall, I think it was. I have known a lot of twins in my life time, but Dave and Crist hold the prize in my mind for being most identical! They even sound a like. When Dave was here, Crist wasn't and if I didn't know about this before hand, I would have sworn it was Crist! We just haven't been able to get them both here at the same time, but if you are near Muncie now is a good time to experience the Rigotti Effect! Good luck t both of them this year!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Thanks Dan. Now, back to the NATS... ;D
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Matt thanks for the photos. D>K
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Great batch of photos Matt, hopefully you and the rest keep them coming. :)
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Here we go! Day 1 of Qualifying for Open and Advanced . It will be HOT! 95 is the prediction. Of more interest will be the wind-heaviest since we've been here for sure. Yesterday someone made the comment it will be like the Dallas Team Trials- amen! There we had to have people holding airplanes down in the pits and pilots gather around the perimeter of he circle to catch airplanes once they land to keep them from flipping over. Today will be like that, hovering just below the criteria for cancellation. The forecast I'm seeing is 8:00 am start time 12 mph, 9:00 14mph with gusts to 16, 11:00 16 with gusts to 22.....you get the picture. You may expect very many passes today to flying a second round flight. One and done for many.
Dave
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Just to make you feel cool, yesterday and the day before it was 111 degrees in my front yard here in Grand Prairie tx.
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.... It will be HOT! 95 is the prediction....
Dave
LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ We should get down to about there in late August.
Ken
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Here we go! Day 1 of Qualifying for Open and Advanced . It will be HOT! 95 is the prediction. Of more interest will be the wind-heaviest since we've been here for sure.
As Dave predicted, not a lot of second-round action today, because it was a bit brisk. It wasn't the worst we have ever had, but at least on 1 and 2 it was pretty darned bumpy at times and tricky for sure. One good thing - while I may have missed one, I saw *no* crashes despite the conditions and and almost everybody got at least one complete flight. I did see a couple of close calls, but that's all.
Should be much nicer tomorrow and Friday, for those who advance.
I didn't find the temperature particularly objectionable, definitely "Muncie miserable" but with the breeze, a bit muggy but more--or-less tolerable. Of course, that's just me - who was awake at 4 AM power-slamming one cup of water after another trying to get my fluid balance back after my, er, "challenges" from earlier in the week.
Brett
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Any pics of the scoreboards
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Who made the Top 20 and who is in the finals?
Mikey
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Who made the Top 20 and who is in the finals?
Mikey
Jumpin the gun, there, Mikey, it's just Wednesday night. Lots of flying left to go.
Brett
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We are heading to the field soon. It looks like today's weather will be MUCH better wind wise than yesterday. Amazingly nobody lost an airplane but there were few takers on a second flight. Only a couple on the bubble (for just the day) went again and I didn't notice ANY of scores doing anything but going down. Today will determine who makes the cut for the Semi Finals for OPEN and Finals for Advanced tomorrow . I'd expect most all will fly two rounds (and a few wishing for a third!).
I found my mastery of the polish language seriously lacking yesterday as our contestant from Poland Pawel Dziuba tried in vain to explain the workings of his electric contra-rotating prop airplane to me. Just a lots of gestures and nodding...However he is a nice enough fellow. Things didn't work in his favor though. His airplane was badly damaged by Lufthansa so he took a pass on the FIRST round trying to get it repaired. When he did get to the field he failed an attempt. Then was still on the ground past three minutes into his final attempt. He took off into fierce wind but the judges by then concluded he would already be way overtime once the flight concluded and was pointless to continue. There is no way he could still be in the running if he flies today but I suppose he could if he wishes...BTW we had a very well attended PAMPA meeting held by Mark Weiss yesterday. Thanks to those who came.
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About forgot-Frank I decided NOT to post scoreboards midstream in Qualifying. We will get the boards posted following the events today.
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I understand why not posting the current score board
HOW About OTS and Classic??????
Fred Q
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Good question. They didn’t have a large board for that, that I saw anyway. I didn’t get any photos-I was judging OT. Anyone who can list the placings please do so.
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OK folks here are your qualifiers:
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Two things:
1. For those of us who can't quite make it out due to small pictures, can you list who all qualified and such?
2. What happened with Sparky? Scratch? Just decided not to fly due to conditions? Just curious.
Steve
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Sorry but unreadable.
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Sorry guys. I chose a smaller pic so I didn't have to size them at the field. I'm back at the hotel so I'll try to resize them.
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Tomorrow’s flight orders:
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Two things:
1. For those of us who can't quite make it out due to small pictures, can you list who all qualified and such?
2. What happened with Sparky? Scratch? Just decided not to fly due to conditions? Just curious.
Steve
Steve I believe he didn't want to risk his Concours winner in those awful winds yesterday. Today was much better but without anything on the board from yesterday..........
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Sporting chick Nats style, Denny Adamisin shows off the Top 20 shirt for this year.
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I take it the wind was gusty and not a study wind. I remember flying in winds in excess of mph and no problem. But, it was a study wind. D>K
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Wind this evening was ridiculously smooth.
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Wind this evening was ridiculously smooth.
Should produce some ridiculously high (practice) scores then?
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Sporting chick Nats style, Denny Adamisin shows off the Top 20 shirt for this year.
A little early for "Shark 45 Week" on Discovery Channel, but that's ok!
Thanks for reporting the haps! y1 Steve
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Today’s results:
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Thanks Dave. We really appreciate the extra effort you make to keep all who can't attend, informed.
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Today’s results:
WOW! Only 11:30 and they are finished already!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Rookie of the Year?
What happened, Paul?
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What happened on Joe Gilbert's first flight?
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What happened on Joe Gilbert's first flight?
Joe’s airplane shed a wing. Joe Daly’s also. I pancaked inverted in the square eight. Paul had a motor issue. Extremely unusual year for Top 20 quirks.
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Hate to see a plane go in, but it shows how hard you guys were fighting for qualifying.
Note Howard Rush's score on his first flight!
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Dave was flying really good stunt and his plane was working well, despite the strong wind. He must have encountered a bad gust.
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Lots of weird stuff happened. It was pretty hard to understand how we managed to lose so many airplanes in relatively benign conditions. Or, benign compared to Circles 1 and 2 on Wednesday, at least, where we all survived. Two folded wings, an overhead flameout and crash, pancake inverted and subsequent big crash, an intermittent connection on an electric that resulted in lost flight/withdrawal and *one airplane chewed up by another in the pits*.
That latter was a perfect example of why I wrote the arming plug rule. The airplane had been (through a series of "unusual/unplanned" operations) left in the pits while still armed. For some reason, sometime later, it started up and then proceeded to chew up the airplane in front.
OK, it definitely should not have been left armed, that's a problem, but the reason that this is a rule is that due to an unknown action, the armed but halted airplane, which would normally sit there doing nothing, *decided to run*, with very predictable results - "running amok in the pits" as I previously described it. I emphasize again - you cannot count on low-level logic states to stay the way they are without some other means of making sure it stays. That means anything in that timer could happen in any way at any time as long as there is power to it.
Brett
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Lots of weird stuff happened. It was pretty hard to understand how we managed to lose so many airplanes in relatively benign conditions. Or, benign compared to Circles 1 and 2 on Wednesday, at least, where we all survived. Two folded wings, an overhead flameout and crash, pancake inverted and subsequent big crash, an intermittent connection on an electric that resulted in lost flight/withdrawal and *one airplane chewed up by another in the pits*.
That latter was a perfect example of why I wrote the arming plug rule. The airplane had been (through a series of "unusual/unplanned" operations) left in the pits while still armed. For some reason, sometime later, it started up and then proceeded to chew up the airplane in front.
OK, it definitely should not have been left armed, that's a problem, but the reason that this is a rule is that due to an unknown action, the armed but halted airplane, which would normally sit there doing nothing, *decided to run*, with very predictable results - "running amok in the pits" as I previously described it. I emphasize again - you cannot count on low-level logic states to stay the way they are without some other means of making sure it stays. That means anything in that timer could happen in any way at any time as long as there is power to it.
Brett
I am not knocking flying electric, but any one that does needs to read this and live by it. In my years of working on high voltage machines with low voltage controls, it's the low voltage stuff that caused the biggest problems and sometimes presented the biggest hazards.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Was the guy DQ'd with the electric set up? ???
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Actually the structural failures today may be attributed to the hard wind conditions back on Wednesday.
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Was the guy DQ'd with the electric set up? ???
I would expect a DQ from the event, for sure. If somebody did this and was also entered in other events...I'm not sure whether they would be allowed to fly the other events or not. I've seen two electrics fail to start and one tear the firewall off the plane when it did start. :o Steve
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Was the guy DQ'd with the electric set up? ???
No, this happened before official flying started.
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Was the guy DQ'd with the electric set up? ???
Not sure about those details. What I understand is the airplane was on the circle ready to go. A bad controline was spotted so the airplane taken back to the pit. The arming plug was still in.....start button NOT pushed. So???? Apparently the errant PIT MAN chewed up his own airplane in the pit when he set the airplane down behind his own.
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Actually the structural failures today may be attributed to the hard wind conditions back on Wednesday.
Frank you are likely correct-even more so for Joe G. This airplane flew in the crazy- winds final LAST YEAR and maybe as far back as the Dallas Team Trials.
Joe Daly's is a take-apart and likely his entry in Poland next month. He flew the flight out and landed in pretty good shape. He should have it repaired quickly.
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Everyone,
No DQ for the pit error as it was outside of official flying, no injuries and the incident was more oversight than carelessness. Had I thought there was any hint of wreckless behavior, I would have asked them to leave. The two parties involved worked the issue out and a second plane was used for the officials. The point here is to disarm the battery any time you are not going to fly the airplane.
Mike Schmitt is Rookie of the Year. 1st year in Open with a new airplanes and power train. Outstanding job by Mike.
John
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Congrats and more to my kid brother and practice buddy, Tom Luciano who just won Advanced. I've known him since he was a toddler; having flown with his father , Mike and brother, Michael since the mid -sixties as members of the Union Model Airplane Club Union , NJ.
. If there was ever a more deserving winner of a model airplane contest, I've yet to find out. Because Tom is a quiet guy, you won't hear much or anything in the way of complaining from him.
While it's not my place to tell you of the obstacles life has thrown in his way, I can say that most guys would've reeled up and gone on to something else long ago.
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Goodmorning everyone. We are live from the LPad in Muncie, IN. The first Open flight is up with Matt Colan on circle 3. The younger groups are working on 4. Here are the starting boards:
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It is in the mid 70s with a little breeze blowing from the pavilion out across circle 3. Already a minor issue. The RC soaring crowd is flying and Launching just off the end of circle 1- drifting over the LPad. John Paris got on the radio....
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Matt got a nice round of applause from the crowd upon a nice flight. Brett Buck next.
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Brett is just finishing . I clicked the RO Jett 61 at 5.35.
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The crowd approved the flight and Howard moves on. His new dog seems to be working well for him this week. Paul Walker is his holder.
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The six person judges team gets to their feet again and the machine is off. 5.22 for lap time. I’m
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We are under a thunderstorm watch here till afternoon. It looks gloomy but not threatening yet.
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Nice triangles laid in.
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Vertical eights well done. Overhead intersections right on.
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This is the first year for the new entry into the clover. In early week practice I saw a few doing or starting to do it the old way. Haven’t noticed an goofs in front of the judges.
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David Fitzgerald prepares to fire up the PA 75. Brett holds.
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Great pro takeoff. David is rolling along at 5.0
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With the breeze he’s getting a little push coming down.
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Go ‘snowman’ vertical eight.
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Speaking of clover entry David is going about it the way I’ve found best. Rather than an abrupt vertical turn he smoothly half-loops to the intersection not killing off too much speed in that turn. He put it down to applause.
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Orestes moves on. He had a little calamity during qualifying when the latch- gadget that holds his battery hatch on broke and he couldn’t get to the battery. Once he got it open he’s resorting to tape to hold it on.
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The wind is getting a bit ugly now. He machine- works through it.
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I have him at 5.1. You need some momentum in the wind. Even with all the push he is flying at the minimum in the bottom
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Looked like he was going 100 mph through the clover but well done. Very nice touchdown.
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Jose Modesto retrieves.
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Howard approaches. Judges are taking 5.
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David is up right now. I notice he is flying about a foot deeper than on the first flight.
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In the vertical eight David got an electric shock from the sky. He signaled this to the judges and leveled out. Not sure what happens now- maybe an attempt, maybe erasure......
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The judges are huddled with head judge Mark Overmier. They did score the landing.
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Whatever the case the judges are leaving the field. Reported lightning in the area so we are on hold here.
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After speaking to the judges, it will be an eraser and start over for David... whenever we can restart. Apparently Howard got a bite too.
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The official word is we are on hold till noon. An evaluation will be made then. Most of the storm will remain north of us, or so it looks, but the sky is still very charged up.
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Since Dave is not here I will fill in. Still on hold until noon, probably a little longer. Got the trailer sealed up and awards put away before the wind and rain whipped up. Sam Londke took a pass on flight 3 so that makes Gabe Alimov the Junior champion this year and a contender for the Walker Cup. Still tight between Steven Daly and Luca Alimov. I am sure we will have flight #3 for the seniors. We will be reflying round 2 for Open when the weather breaks and I am sure we will do the third round as well. Going to be a late conclusion this year but we will get it done.
John
Oh yeah, big pylon tent was blown down as the weather rolled through....
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Just curious....have they posted the scores from the 1st round yet? I know it's just one flight, but I'd like to know who's in the lead.
Steve
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From our remote location (12th St. Cafe); we have a policy to not post scores while the event is in progress. It isn’t considered a good idea for judges to see or hear about scores until it’s over. We try not to tempt....
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From our remote location (12th St. Cafe); we have a policy to not post scores while the event is in progress. It isn’t considered a good idea for judges to see or hear about scores until it’s over. We try not to tempt....
Ok, good idea. Like I said, I was just curious.
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Weather is still not good. I am updating the delay to 2pm. It looks like it will better by then. Fingers crossed.
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Back on site, at the speed circles the two ports John’s are turned over and one of the ‘hardened’ tents is in tatters. Two tents in the camping area also look destroyed.
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1:38 and still on hold. Clime weather service is saying rain for another hour and wind- 52 mph! The speed cage fencing is completely down on the ground.
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We are gathered at the pavilion. A pilot discussion is under way....
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So far the Juniors and Seniors will call it a day where we are.....
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Appreciate the updates.
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Latest word- AMA says we are done.....I’ll update with final scores from one round shortly. There can’t be a Walker Cup fly off so........
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The youngsters:
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The open final results:
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Perhaps my last entry for now... it has been decided the Walker Cup will NOT be awarded for 2022 since the fly off could not occur.
Yes- two of the strangest Nats finishes ever- back to back.
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Weird ending, but still and all:
Congratulations to Gabe and Luca! Two fine young men (tall enough not to be called "boys"). I bet Daddy is very proud! Yes?
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So is Fitzgerald considered National Champion, but not Walker Cup winner?
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Weird ending, but still and all:
Congratulations to Gabe and Luca! Two fine young men (tall enough not to be called "boys"). I bet Daddy is very proud! Yes?
+1
Looks like Luca had the highest total score but Gabe had the highest single flight score - poor (but justifiably PROUD) dad gonna have to listen to the trash talk on the way home!!!
Steven Daly flew well all week. Heard Sam Londke was on fire over at the Combat circles, while his stunt flying continues to improve. All good young flyers, and BIG APPLAUSE to all the great dad/coaches!
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So is Fitzgerald considered National Champion, but not Walker Cup winner?
OPEN Champion
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We need to get to the bottom of why AMA called it. The pilots and judges agreed to wait a little longer and see what happens. It is now 4:33 pm and the sky is blue, and the wind is moderate.
I have my own opinion on why they called it, and if I'm correct, it is inexcusable.
Derek
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We need to get to the bottom of why AMA called it. The pilots and judges agreed to wait a little longer and see what happens. It is now 4:33 pm and the sky is blue, and the wind is moderate.
I have my own opinion on why they called it, and if I'm correct, it is inexcusable.
Derek
Agreed.
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Don't keep us in suspense, Derek; please let us know your suspicions.
Another way they could have handled this was to use the results from Friday. There, at least, was a two flight sampling.
We need to come up with some contingency plans that address this type of situation in the future. Some will say this will never happen again, but with all the weird things that happened at this Nats, who can say for sure.
As Robert Hunter once wrote: "What a long strange trip it's been."
All that being said, congrats to David! #^
Bob Hunt
Without all the facts I would be making an accusation that I can't back up. I do have my opinion though.
I plan on trying to confirm my opinion, and if I can, I will absolutely go public with it.
Derek
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Just for the record; this was not John Paris' decision, it came from AMA headquarters. John did an excellent job of running the Nats and we would be very fortunate if he decided to do it again.
Derek
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We need to get to the bottom of why AMA called it. The pilots and judges agreed to wait a little longer and see what happens. It is now 4:33 pm and the sky is blue, and the wind is moderate.
That is absolutely correct, I think we all considered it hopeless to try to pick up again at 2 or shortly thereafter. I told them I could live with calling it at that time, but, was certainly willling to wait it out on the chance it would get better enough to continue. I would have liked to have had another shot at it from the #5 draw in the next round, at the rate I was improving and some additional bad luck for others, who knows? Another air biscuit for David, things start to open up. Hope springs eternal, I am sure I am not the only one.
Once the AMA called it off, that was pretty much the end, just like last year. I can at least see someone looking around at the half-shredded and missing tents, turned-over porta-johns, and saying "we dodged a bullet, lets get everyone out of here before our luck runs out". which would have been a legitimate value judgement.
I also heard the other story, of course, but have nothing else about it from any principle and I am not sure how we would ever confirm or deny it.
Brett
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We need to get to the bottom of why AMA called it. The pilots and judges agreed to wait a little longer and see what happens. It is now 4:33 pm and the sky is blue, and the wind is moderate.
I have my own opinion on why they called it, and if I'm correct, it is inexcusable.
Derek
Just out of curiosity, what activity was there on the LPad that would have precluded flying the remaining rounds of at least open. The Walker perhaps was out of reach. I lived not far from there for half of my life and it is quite nice after these big thunder storms and light enough to fly until about 9:00. What was so important that they could not finish what was once AMA's premier event and disappoint just about everybody that owns line clips? Please, someone come up with a believable explanation.
This was going to be my first NATs since the 60's until I had a fire and lost everything. It is a huge undertaking that I am now reconsidering if all it takes to destroy a year of preparation and hundreds of hours practice is a thunderstorm. My heart goes out to Brett and Matt. Brett for making a well earned comeback and Matt for finally breaking through the wall only to have this? I am glad that the decision was not ours and if I am out of line, we need a new line.
Ken
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Just out of curiosity, what activity was there on the LPad that would have precluded flying the remaining rounds of at least open. The Walker perhaps was out of reach. I lived not far from there for half of my life and it is quite nice after these big thunder storms and light enough to fly until about 9:00. What was so important that they could not finish what was once AMA's premier event and disappoint just about everybody that owns line clips? Please, someone come up with a believable explanation.
This was going to be my first NATs since the 60's until I had a fire and lost everything. It is a huge undertaking that I am now reconsidering if all it takes to destroy a year of preparation and hundreds of hours practice is a thunderstorm. My heart goes out to Brett and Matt. Brett for making a well earned comeback and Matt for finally breaking through the wall only to have this? I am glad that the decision was not ours and if I am out of line, we need a new line.
Ken
Just wind.
Derek
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So, is this the second time that the Open Winner did not receive the Walker Cup?
Congrats to all, flying at the Nationals is always a marathon.
Matt, so glad you made it in the top 5. Hopefully when you win this thing, there will be a fly-off…
Curt
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So, is this the second time that the Open Winner did not receive the Walker Cup?
Congrats to all, flying at the Nationals is always a marathon.
Matt, so glad you made it in the top 5. Hopefully when you win this thing, there will be a fly-off…
Curt
Yes, however, the previous time they got to fly for it. This contest should not have been canceled without completing the final round. The Junior, Senior, Open flyoff is literally the reason for the Nats. Today it did not happen. None of the 3 champions were given the opportunity to fly. They should have at least been asked if they were willing to sacrifice their plane for the Walker Cup. If I had been in that position, I would have absolutely attempted a pattern to win that Trophy. If my plane didn't survive, so be it.
When the top five was canceled after 1 full round, J,S,O should have been presented with the option.
To repeat myself, this was not John the ED, it was AMA.
Derek
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Thanks Bob, after I posted the question I started thinking about the early years of the trophy and realized I may not have worded it correctly. In the moment, I was thinking specifically about Werwage’s win as a senior.
@Derek, I do remember a conversation at the L-Pad about wind one year on Friday and taking the risk of losing a model. I agree that it is a risk worth taking. One can spend many years to get the opportunity, I never understood when people put their planes away on top 20 day for wind but I do understand that it is a personal decision.
Curt
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So, is this the second time that the Open Winner did not receive the Walker Cup?
Congrats to all, flying at the Nationals is always a marathon.
Matt, so glad you made it in the top 5. Hopefully when you win this thing, there will be a fly-off…
Curt
I am curious, and maybe this is what Curt meant to ask, is this the only time the Walker Cup was not awarded, period? The trophy has a long, long history and after all these years I would guess that this wasn't the first time weather may have prevented it from happening.
That would make a great article for a magazine, "The History of the Walker Cup for Precision Aerobatics."
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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That would make a great article for a magazine, "The History of the Walker Cup for Precision Aerobatics."
Boy you got that one right! I'd love to read that!
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I am not at all sure but I think originally the idea was to have SUNDAY open as a backup day. Seems that AMA COULD have at least offered such an idea.....provided some wanted to stay. This one has sailed now..
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That same thing happened to me on my first flight (which was the first flight of the contest) at the 2006 World Championships in Spain. A thunderstorm had just passed through and there was a lot of static still in the sky. I pulled up into the wingover and got soundly zapped! I pulled out and flew the time out as low as I could. They called the contest until the conditions improved and I got to fly that flight again. I'm certain that they will give David another flight.
As a brief aside, that flight at the World Championships was also the very first flight by an electric powered model. Seems fitting that I would get shocked..
Bob Hunt
Yes...ELECTRICITY...ELECTRICITY...he said, with a spanish accent!!!
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Yes...ELECTRICITY...ELECTRICITY...he said, with a spanish accent!!!
To be clear, that was him yelling to the judges, many of which didn't know english , while he was flying, that he was getting shocked. Some of us who knew what was going on had a good laugh...sorry Bob.
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What a day…I woke up extremely excited to have finally made the top 5 and be able to fly for a NATS win amongst the best of the best. It truly is an honor to reach that level. The stress of top 20 was over, and I wanted to have a good time today and soak in the experience. Unfortunately that was unable to happen. We had come to the agreement to wait it out a little bit longer to see if conditions would improve…as it turned out they did. But we never got the opportunity to wait and see. We were there for six days, traveled hundreds, if not thousands of miles, and spent months preparing for the NATS. at this point what was another couple hours to try and determine a national champion.
To put it somewhat bluntly, I feel I was robbed of the opportunity and experience to fly in the top 5 and soak everything in because of the decision of someone from the AMA to cancel the rest of the flying. It totally sucked. I hope and I’m certain we all get to the bottom of the decision making and ensure that this never happens again
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I was not there but, I going to say it anyway. The biggest control line entries of the NATS and run by the people of PAMPA. Is this another way of the AMA trying to shut down control line flying? Looks like if people were willing to stay over it should have been done, the flying of final flights and Walker Cup. But it has been a weird week according to what I've read. So no Walker Cup winner this year. ???
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Viewing from the gallery, this totally sucks, all of you got screwed.
As Matt mentions, your dedication and investments in large amounts of preparation time, travel distances, and incurred expenses all turns out to be worth nil to the AMA. This is just another glaring example that shows just how much the AMA actually cares about what you're all doing. It's the frickin' NATS for gods sake, their obligation to you should be to stick it out and see it all through, whatever it takes!
Sad thing is, I'm not even a tiny bit surprised. I figured out a long time ago that what the AMA does best anymore is totally screw up everything they get their fingers in, along with ignoring everything that's ever mattered to the true hobbyists.
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The Walker Trophy has been awarded every year except this one.
From what I have heard all week is the forecast was always wrong. The weather was really all over the place. Then today's events caused the whole thing to go haywire. Lightening strikes shocking fliers in the morning rounds. Rain storms, heavy winds, then times of calm. There is no way the officials could have any idea of what was to come.
At the same time if everyone involved in deciding the outcome was willing to stay to get it done then it should have been attempted.
The current format takes 6 days to complete. This has been talked about for ages. 6 days is a very long time to get from 40 or so fliers to 1.
Monday is appearance and pilots meeting is held in the afternoon.
Tuesday is an off day for the pilots and judges. The paperwork is completed and ready for the next day.
Wed-Friday is flying.
Saturday is the Open flyoff and Jr,Sr, then the finals.
I have been thinking for a few years now since Howard's most excellent program straightens and sorts things out once the final entries are in the system that flying could start on Tuesday.
Start the pilots meeting and appearance judging at 9 am on Monday. Finish it up around 12-1. Prepare paperwork that afternoon.
Flying can start on Tuesday and run through Friday. This leaves Saturday as an optional rain day. As it stands now there is no way to postpone our nats as there are other disciplines that come in a fly after us that will use or directly fly over the L-pad.
Just my thoughts on how to avoid this in the future. I do find it pretty amazing that the Nats has never been rained out or blown out before.
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Doug some discussions are being had that align pretty close to what you are talking about. It requires trying to work around the unofficial events as well since some fly-or volunteer to help-with both. We need an option or two in our pocket to handle things as they change. As it is we don't have many tools. Stay tuned.....AMA doesn't control the CLPA schedule, PAMPA and the ED do....
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Stay tuned.....AMA doesn't control the CLPA schedule, PAMPA and the ED do....
[/quote]
Unfortunately, they did...right at the critical point.
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I am so disappointed the weather did this to all. Whatever you decide to do remember one thing, the description of how the nats is run that is in the rulebook needs to be amended to spell out the cure you decide on. Someone learned that in 1981 art the Seguin nats.
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I really want to know why this decision was not left in the hands of the CD. Apparently, there is some higher authority than the CD at play here or someone who thinks they are. From the CD Guide - "The responsibility for the cancellation of an event rests with the CD. If the CD feels that the event cannot be flown safely, he/she may cancel it." I have not read every AMA document so somewhere there might be something or maybe it is simply that we were on AMA grounds. As a former CD I was always under pressure to keep an event running until there was absolutely no way it could be completed and even then, I would keep it open if even one pilot wanted to fly.
My question here is WHY was the CD not the one making the decision and if there is a "man behind the curtain" calling the real shots, why was the CD not consulted. I have a ton of questions, but it appears that our "powers to be" are on top of it. I just hope they keep those of us outside the inner circles informed.
R%%%% To me competition is the reason I do this. Returning to the NATS and qualifying is on my bucket list. I don't have enough productive years left to expect more than that and I may not have enough resources to do it more than once. This has altered my view of the AMA dramatically. It was already low. PAMPA needs to step up. I would be giving my rep an ear full but, since he was the one most screwed by this AMA Brain Fart, I doubt that will be necessary.
Thanks Sparky, for having this forum where I can vent. R%%%%
Ken
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Stay tuned.....AMA doesn't control the CLPA schedule, PAMPA and the ED do....
Unfortunately, they did...right at the critical point.
Well yes they controlled access to the site.....and when THEY wanted to go home. We need to build in some time padding to have it all accomplished before Saturday afternoon regardless of what happens.
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Well yes they controlled access to the site.....and when THEY wanted to go home.
I truly hope that they didn't cancel the CLPA Finals because THEY wanted to go home.
Ken
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I truly hope that they didn't cancel the CLPA Finals because THEY wanted to go home.
Ken
It was absolutely canceled because one very selfish person was ready to leave. She announced it for everyone to hear. 5 minutes later, we were told that we were done.
Derek
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It was absolutely canceled because one very selfish person was ready to leave. She announced it for everyone to hear. 5 minutes later, we were told that we were done.
Derek
:o :o :o
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It was absolutely canceled because one very selfish person was ready to leave. She announced it for everyone to hear. 5 minutes later, we were told that we were done.
Derek
Unacceptable.
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I stopped by the farmhouse at noon on Sunday. Talked to Yolanda. She and the AMA had nothing to do with it. She was told that the CLPA ED and the Controlline CD both agreed to stop it. From what John said, he wanted to go on so that leaves only one person who did this to us. I think you know who...
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Stay tuned.....AMA doesn't control the CLPA schedule, PAMPA and the ED do....
Unfortunately, they did...right at the critical point.
Dead on Paul!!
Doug
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Instead of the veiled suggestions as to the culprit would someone grow a set and just say the name?
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I am curious, and maybe this is what Curt meant to ask, is this the only time the Walker Cup was not awarded, period? The trophy has a long, long history and after all these years I would guess that this wasn't the first time weather may have prevented it from happening.
That would make a great article for a magazine, "The History of the Walker Cup for Precision Aerobatics."
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
At the risk of throwing you under the bus, you have the resources in your basement for such an article LL~
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Just curious, was the site closed to all flying yesterday when the storms hit? Looking at the AMA Nats schedule there don't seem to be anything scheduled that would use the L Pads for Sunday so couldn't you just go the site and fly?
Best, DennisT
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Instead of the veiled suggestions as to the culprit would someone grow a set and just say the name?
Anyone who goes to the Nats knows who we are talking about, but now that I have confirmed my suspicions through multiple sources, I will give the name.
Brenda Schuette, single handedly shut down the 2022 US Nationals because she was ready to leave. As I understand it, she is a paid employee of the AMA and is supposed to be on site until the final rounds of all CL competition are complete. Her decision to stop us, before we were able to finish the top 5 and prevent us from having a Walker Cup Flyoff is unacceptable. I (and many others) will be asking the AMA to terminate her from the position she now holds.
Derek
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a few years ago at one of the first racing contest of the year the people running the contest had just run another week long event and were looking to go home.being our first contest a few of the racers were having trouble shaking out the cobwebs..the cd was trying to push us along as quickly as he could so they could go home, we had flyers and workers a bit fried. .i went to the CD and reminded him that
they were there to run the contest for us not the other way around .after a short while he agreed and apologized and we had a great contest.RAD
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What Derek said!
Steve
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Doug some discussions are being had that align pretty close to what you are talking about. It requires trying to work around the unofficial events as well since some fly-or volunteer to help-with both. We need an option or two in our pocket to handle things as they change. As it is we don't have many tools. Stay tuned.....AMA doesn't control the CLPA schedule, PAMPA and the ED do....
n
Dave I agree about having options to handle things as they change, but ordinarily the top 5 and Walker flyoff have usually been able to be completed in the past. In the present case the "plug" was pulled apparently too soon by a couple of AMA officials that should not have occurred except until all possibilities had been exhausted for a Sat. completion - If we would have been allowed just a little more time we would not be discussing this. Kathleen and I left the L-PAD for home about 3:15PM. The wind velocity was beginning to to lessen as we drove out (weather was clearing). We stopped in New Castle, IN about 3:30PM about 14 mi. from the field. The wind was now down to about 5-15mph. I heard reports from a few people still at the field that wind velocity had lessened to about the same and got a even better later. So it was possible to completely finish last 2 rounds of TOP 5 /Walker flyoff in my opinion for what it's worth. Initially I agreed with the decision, but just before leaving I felt that we should have waited at least another 1-1/2 hrs. As it happened we would not have had to wait that long since moderate flyable winds soon occurred. I'm confident that our PAMPA President and officials will get this resolved in a good way so this won't be repeated. I still congratulate the winner Dave Fitzgerald, and the other four great and truly talented fliers. As an aside all 5 fliers were in agreement to stay and finish the rounds as well as 4 judges. The flying was very competitive - these guys were close!!!
Doug
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Perhaps my last entry for now... it has been decided the Walker Cup will NOT be awarded for 2022 since the fly off could not occur.
Yes- two of the strangest Nats finishes ever- back to back.
I read this yesterday just after Dave posted it, and even from my seat here at home , from what I could see on weather maps, I can't believe that they pulled the plug that early (noonish) if all contestants were willing to wait. At that point, I can't imagine ANYONE not being willing to wait until sun down if that is what it would take to go to completion. It's the Final Five and Walker Cup for crying out loud! I feel sorry for the Top Five pilots and the Jr/Sr/ pilots, and to everyone there that was hanging around to spectate! I was ready to follow Dave's play by play from my computer and I'm pissed about it!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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If I were AMA President, which I will never be, but if I were, I would be looking into funding the travel expenses for the 7 fliers and three judges to some place where they can finish the contest as soon as possible. I would start with Brenda Schuette, a name that will live in CLPA Infamy.
Ken
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The wind from AMA HQ weather station for Saturday. Draw your own conclusion as 20/20 hindsight is always better.
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KINMUNCI43/graph/2022-07-23/2022-07-23/daily
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Dave, couldn't look at the AMA wind SITE/Muncie Sat. weather site- Locked up my computer, but Sat. evening had flyable winds/people on site.
Doug
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Just a quick questions, who chooses the Control Line ED? As I understand it, the same person is over all Control Line Events, not just the PAMPA event. Also, who chooses the Team Manager for our World Cup Team? Just wondering?
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What Derek said!
Steve
I second this!
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Mike I'm not sure exactly. In the case of the World Team Bill Lee did it for ......long time. Those before that did the job until they chose not to travel any more. I think that may end up being the person who raises a hand at the right time and volunteers. It might not be much different for the Nats CD. I don't think there are long lines waiting for the job.
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Just a quick questions, who chooses the Control Line ED? As I understand it, the same person is over all Control Line Events, not just the PAMPA event. Also, who chooses the Team Manager for our World Cup Team? Just wondering?
It is a while since I was involved with such AMA matters. As I understand the process, the AMA officialdom chooses/hires the Nationals Control Line Event Director. That person oversees all Nationals Control Line events. There is also an AMA Nationals Event Director, or there may be several since the AMA events span several months of activities. The Nationals Event Director(s) operate under the auspices of the AMA officers and/or the AMA Technical Director.
There are four AMA FAI Control Line Team Selection Committees. Each of these committees can have representatives from each of the 11 AMA Districts and are responsible for the determination of the team selection date and process for each of the four respective FAI CL events - F2A Speed, F2B Aerobatics, F2C Team Racing, and F2D Combat. Randy Smith is the Chairman of the FAI Control Line Team Selection Committee for F2B. (This F2B Committee has nothing to do with PAMPA. However, PAMPA does get involved with organizing, getting volunteers and conducting the team selection finals.) AMA headquarters is responsible for the selection of the Team Manager for the entire US CL team. This is normally done by the AMA HQ asking for Team Manager nominations from the current members of the US Team that will participate in the next World Championships. I believe that the AMA then conducts a vote among the current Team members to name the Team Manager. I also believe that the AMA might intervene in the final selection of the Team Manager. I also understand that when a Team Manager is selected, that Team Manager can choose who his assistant will be.
Bill Lee many times has been the US CL FAI Team Manager. He can clarify the manner of the Team Manager selection process better than I can.
Keith
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I must say I was there with Brenda and Melvin for their first Nationals. Navy Carrier needed a person to do the scores, Brenda volunteered once she was shown what it took. She did this until Bev Wisneuski(spelling) decided to retire from the position. She took Brenda under her wing and trained her. She has given up her vacation time to do this job ever since. She has had to learn a lot during those years and had to make decisions some people didn't agree with like when one year, a person wanted her to change the schedule of a two events so he could compete in one and go home for the other. But there were other people to think of so no change. Each and every year she had some problems that crop up in which some people did not like her decisions until all facts were considered. Did somebody approach her on the feasibility of staying another night which probably had not been thought of. You know she has motel, food, auto transportation to think about. Any body that has been event director for the NATS knows people in the events can not fly/practice without the event director or CL catagory director being available. Now who in their right mind would have done the job she has done all these years. Maybe PAMPA should have thought of this scenario years ago. So I say we are all to blame for this and may it be a lesson. R%%%% D>K
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I am not at all sure but I think originally the idea was to have SUNDAY open as a backup day. Seems that AMA COULD have at least offered such an idea.....provided some wanted to stay. This one has sailed now..
Yolanda told me they do NOT schedule a contingency day for weather..or anything. It WILL be completed on schedule. Period.
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Doc, I am sorry to reply to your support of her, but in nearly every nats I flew stunt, she was a big pain in the backside, and when I started judging c/l scale, she stuck with that scenario. I even heard her tell a worker at the scale circles to "don't set on the tables, get off." who the %&^^$ did she think she was?
Her and I clashed a couple of times over her not knowing the changes in the morning start up times at the nats. She didn't even keep up with the rules at the field! I have wanted her gone for several years and for several reasons. She has a power hungry attitude. R%%%%
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I must say I was there with Brenda and Melvin for their first Nationals. Navy Carrier needed a person to do the scores, Brenda volunteered once she was shown what it took. She did this until Bev Wisneuski(spelling) decided to retire from the position. She took Brenda under her wing and trained her. She has given up her vacation time to do this job ever since. She has had to learn a lot during those years and had to make decisions some people didn't agree with like when one year, a person wanted her to change the schedule of a two events so he could compete in one and go home for the other. But there were other people to think of so no change. Each and every year she had some problems that crop up in which some people did not like her decisions until all facts were considered. Did somebody approach her on the feasibility of staying another night which probably had not been thought of. You know she has motel, food, auto transportation to think about. Any body that has been event director for the NATS knows people in the events can not fly/practice without the event director or CL category director being available. Now who in their right mind would have done the job she has done all these years. Maybe PAMPA should have thought of this scenario years ago. So I say we are all to blame for this and may it be a lesson. R%%%% D>K
She may have been a great worker in the past but this was totally out of bounds. Someone has to get it through these "officials" that this is a sport/hobby and they are here to serve us, we are not there to serve them. Her job was to be there till they were done, not they could stay as long as she felt like it, and it was John Paris place to tell her when that would be. From what I read and have heard, he wasn't even consulted. The purpose of the NATs is for us to select our champions, period. Denying us that really means that they have no purpose.
Maybe part of the problem is this - there are 50 people listed on the AMA website under staff. How many are dedicated to the most important function of the AMA (the NATs) - 1
Ken
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Dave, couldn't look at the AMA wind SITE/Muncie Sat. weather site- Locked up my computer, but Sat. evening had flyable winds/people on site.
Doug
The weather was unflyable at 2:00-2:15, and, there was still active lightning - I saw a few strikes north of the site as I was driving back to 2:00 pm meeting. It was bad enough that I don't think you could take off and fly around level.
It was nearly ideal by around 3:30, with intermittent gusty periods the rest of the day.
I will also admit that around 2ish, after looking at the radar at a line of storms all the way back to near Chicago, I expressed the opinion it was unlikely to get better for long enough. But, we were all willing to wait if necessary (although by that point I was pretty well mentally checked out). That option was vetoed, apparently.
Brett
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Since I was not present for what took place, I cannot and should not comment on it. That being said, I have been the CL racing ED at the past six NATS, and the Carrier ED a couple of times before that. I have never had a problem with Brenda Schuette. She has always done or provided what I have asked for quickly and efficiently. That is a FACT.
What if the weather remained unflyable for the remainder of Saturday? Perhaps PAMPA should have a contingency plan for this type of situation, other than hanging Brenda next to Mike Pence.
Bill Bischoff, NCLRA President/ CL Racing Contest Board member/ Contest Director
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Doug some discussions are being had that align pretty close to what you are talking about. It requires trying to work around the unofficial events as well since some fly-or volunteer to help-with both. We need an option or two in our pocket to handle things as they change. As it is we don't have many tools. Stay tuned.....AMA doesn't control the CLPA schedule, PAMPA and the ED do....
Hello Dave,
The unofficial events cannot take precedent over the official events. The others are great and fun and people love them but we take a chance every year by leaving Tuesday open that something like this will happen. Plus if we start flying on Tuesday and finish on Friday it gives EVERYONE an extra travel day to get home.
Seems like a no brainer to me. But that's just me.
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Reading the comments and looking at the weather data, I think under these circumstances the prudent call was made by Brenda or however was the final word.
If I had come to judge this year like I thought about for awhile, I would have checked out of my room on Sat. morning, confirmed my evening flight from Indy, and would not have been able to stay to finish the Walker flyoff at 6 or 7 in the evening.
I have been vocal in the past about throwing away rounds on Wednesday or Thursday, where we could have come back after the wind lays and have flown to 9pm. Alternatively we could have squeezed in three rounds on Thursday, or maybe throw an early morning Friday set. But that’s mid week, when everyone has a room for the night and was not planning on skipping town at the end of the day.
But, on Saturday, that’s different. (If compressed to end on Friday, it wouldn't be any different. People would schedule to end their stay on Friday)
It sounds to me like the practical call was made.
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Reading the comments and looking at the weather data, I think under these circumstances the prudent call was made by Brenda or however was the final word.
If I had come to judge this year like I thought about for awhile, I would have checked out of my room on Sat. morning, confirmed my evening flight from Indy, and would not have been able to stay to finish the Walker flyoff at 6 or 7 in the evening.
I have been vocal in the past about throwing away rounds on Wednesday or Thursday, where we could have come back after the wind lays and have flown to 9pm. Alternatively we could have squeezed in three rounds on Thursday, or maybe throw an early morning Friday set. But that’s mid week, when everyone has a room for the night and was not planning on skipping town at the end of the day.
But, on Saturday, that’s different. (If compressed to end on Friday, it wouldn't be any different. People would schedule to end their stay on Friday)
It sounds to me like the practical call was made.
You are correct for the theory behind all of this but you missed the part where all 5 fliers and 4 judges agreed to wait it out and fly if they could. Everybody else would be not essential and could leave if they had to. Even if it was just the nine of them it would have been better than this. I don't know all of the details but if Brenda made that call knowing full well that all essential personnel wanted to stay and finish, there was still time on the clock and a weather forecast that clearly showed an opening window, then she made the wrong call. It was her job to know all of these things. I am in agreement with Doug that having Saturday available as a backup and revising the schedule to be finished on Friday is a great idea. There are a lot of things that could be done to shorten the week but this thread is not the place for that discussion.
Ken
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Hello Dave,
The unofficial events cannot take precedent over the official events. The others are great and fun and people love them but we take a chance every year by leaving Tuesday open that something like this will happen. Plus if we start flying on Tuesday and finish on Friday it gives EVERYONE an extra travel day to get home.
Seems like a no brainer to me. But that's just me.
From my view of what's being discussed by the PAMPA EC I don't think they are going to let the unofficial events control what happens to the AMA events. However it had been said and acknowledged that quite a few folks come to fly BOTH, and some only to fly unofficial. They are trying to accommodate that. Most scenarios right now would have us starting Qualifications Tuesday with Pilots meeting Monday evening or perhaps Sunday with Classic/N30/OT Sunday or Monday. On the other end of the week (we proved last year) that it's doable to have Top 20 and Top5 / Walker Cup on one day. It would give us at least one extra day plus cut the hotel a night if we didn't need to use the extra day ( we could also get a qualifying day washed out as well at some point.).
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Go NAVY !
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What Dave just said makes good sense. Shortening the total length
of the contest, time wise, would allow a cushion should something
go wrong and extra time be necessary.
Steve
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What Dave just said makes good sense. Shortening the total length
of the contest, time wise, would allow a cushion should something
go wrong and extra time be necessary.
Steve
I am wondering one thing about calling the contest. If someone had to leave why couldn't they have deferred the rest of our contest to someone who is going to be at the AMA for rest of the day? I mean the flyers and judges that were left know exactly what to do and how to do it. Just a thought.
If you really want to compress the contest do this.
Monday is app and pilots meeting.
Tuesday flying starts at 7:30 and fly all 4 qualifying rounds. 2 on one circle then 2 on the next circle after lunch. Based on avg with ADV thats 60 flights per circle!! That's alot and a ton of work and a big undertaking.
Wednesday fly top 20 and top 5
Thursday J S and then the flyoff.
Friday those who want can stay and fly the unofficial events.
This would be a huge amount of work in a very short time but it is a way to compress the schedule should major weather be on the way etc...
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The AMA needs to believe that we will be there from Sunday through the following Saturday. If we give up a day, we will never get it back. Then we will right back where we are now, with no buffer day for bad weather.
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The AMA needs to believe that we will be there from Sunday through the following Saturday. If we give up a day, we will never get it back. Then we will right back where we are now, with no buffer day for bad weather.
Well we can still call for the full week but be ready to make provisions on the fly should it need be.
Just a thought.
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Doing the top 5 in the evening right after top 20 might make for some of the best flying. The weather in the evening in Muncie is usually spectacular. It would also allow the buffer in case Friday night is a washout, and we could fly Saturday
Just a thought
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Derek is right....is PAMPA schedules an extra day the Academy will gobble it up! They will compress the whole schedule.
Matt makes a good point....the weather after 4:00 is usually Stunt Heaven....many return from their naps and put in several flights....
I think Top Twenty , Top Five anf the Fly-Off for the Cup could usually be accomplished in a single day.
HOWEVER, it would just shorten PAMPA's use of the "L" pad....still no backup day.
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You could schedule something for the back up day that doesn't really exist, like combined class winners free style. That would hold the day open.
Motorman 8)
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Saturday: World Cup team practice.
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I don't like the idea of permanently making all in one day Top 20/Top 5/walker cup fly-off. It would require about a maximum of 41 judged flights. In my opinion the quality of judging would probably suffer. Over half our judging corps are older men. You couple our aged judging corps with hot humid weather then optimum results would suffer. Heck, judging that many flights is equally rough on younger persons. We should only have to resort to this on an emergency basis. I understand that most competitors would probably like to wrap it all up in one day because each competitor would be flying just 2-5 flights total depending on where they finished in qualifying.
Paul W in his talk to Yolanda said AMA does not have contingency dates set aside for events, if I understand his thread. I believe if we give up that Sat. date resulting in a shortened contest, then we could be boxing ourselves in reducing our options. If we keep the the schedule as it is we at least have the option to do a Friday all in one if the weather on the Saturday is reliably assured of being unflyable due to thunder cell, high winds, or powerful down pours. Also, if the weather does not permit flying on Friday, or only part of the TOP 20 gets done, we would still have Sat. to combine everything.
Now if the plans in the future do in fact involve shortening the contest by a day, then Tuesday and Wed. would be the start of OPEN/ADVANCE, and Thursday would Top 20 semi-finals. Friday would be Top 5/walker cup fly-off as has been mentioned here earlier. I'M being kind of remedial here. Now I see where you could use Thursday and Friday like I used Friday and SAT. above. The CL/N-30/OTS events would have to be moved to Monday, because some of these fliers compete in ADVANCE and OPEN.
I really believe the schedule should remain the same. The problem as we all know was AMA's premature decision to end competition when less than another hour of waiting would have made completion possible. Also, there was enough gloom and doom forecasting that probably helped push AMA's decision, as well as a few other reasons influencing the final call.
Doug
Doug
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First let me say ,dont ever give up any day at the Nats. one year we (Racing ) did not have our normal fox racing on the beginning Sunday of the nats .the next year we found out that our circle had been given to the Scale group and we never got that day back.
i may P--s of a few people but need to speak my piece as you all have.i have known Brenda and Melvin longer than most of my stunt Family.i worked 4 years under her as Racing ED and raced under Merlvin when he was Racing ED,she always made sure we had what we needed to get our racing done .more than once we flew past the 5 oclock dead line until dark to get finished .
her job is to over see ALL controlline events at the nats not just Stunt.
i was not there and not privi to the whole thing as to weather Brenda made a Bad decision. Yes the decision affected a lot of people .i hope to hear her side of it .if she made a bad decision than shame on her ,but if we look back over her years as CD she has done a very good job for U/C over all. RAD
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First let me say ,dont ever give up any day at the Nats. one year we (Racing ) did not have our normal fox racing on the beginning Sunday of the nats .the next year we found out that our circle had been given to the Scale group and we never got that day back.
i may P--s of a few people but need to speak my piece as you all have.i have known Brenda and Melvin longer than most of my stunt Family.i worked 4 years under her as Racing ED and raced under Merlvin when he was Racing ED,she always made sure we had what we needed to get our racing done .more than once we flew past the 5 oclock dead line until dark to get finished .
her job is to over see ALL controlline events at the nats not just Stunt.
i was not there and not privi to the whole thing as to weather Brenda made a Bad decision. Yes the decision affected a lot of people .i hope to hear her side of it .if she made a bad decision than shame on her ,but if we look back over her years as CD she has done a very good job for U/C over all. RAD
It has become apparent in this thread that your group (RAD) is the only one she has any respect for. You guys can have her! The rest of us want someone else.
Derek
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Doing the top 5 in the evening right after top 20 might make for some of the best flying. The weather in the evening in Muncie is usually spectacular. It would also allow the buffer in case Friday night is a washout, and we could fly Saturday
Just a thought
Another option might be to fly top 20, then fly a round of final 5 after that, either right after or towards the evening. Then fly two rounds the next day.
If the weather for the final 2 rounds looks to be real bad, do 3 rounds after top 20. If the weather is less than desirable following top 20, do 3 the following day. This creates options, and doesn't give up a day.
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Another option might be to fly top 20, then fly a round of final 5 after that, either right after or towards the evening. Then fly two rounds the next day.
If the weather for the final 2 rounds looks to be real bad, do 3 rounds after top 20. If the weather is less than desirable following top 20, do 3 the following day. This creates options, and doesn't give up a day.
I agree. This was my first suggestion. With the technology we have today, it's much easier to predict what the weather might do. That being said, I think the forecast for Saturday was pretty good all week, then it wasn't...
Derek
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Another option might be to fly top 20, then fly a round of final 5 after that, either right after or towards the evening. Then fly two rounds the next day.
If the weather for the final 2 rounds looks to be real bad, do 3 rounds after top 20. If the weather is less than desirable following top 20, do 3 the following day. This creates options, and doesn't give up a day.
That's a good idea too Paul! I agree that it's not good to give up a day that has always been there. History shows you never get it back!
Doug
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Doing the top 5 in the evening right after top 20 might make for some of the best flying. The weather in the evening in Muncie is usually spectacular. It would also allow the buffer in case Friday night is a washout, and we could fly Saturday
Just a thought
YES! Evening flying in Muncie is worth the drive alone.
This could be very interesting!
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YES! Evening flying in Muncie is worth the drive alone.
This could be very interesting!
Friday evening when Dave Brett and I were flying, Brett said, “this is too easy.” I agreed with that assessment. It was some of the best flying weather! I wish I had flown my last flight on Friday night, Saturday morning, it was pretty good!
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YES! Evening flying in Muncie is worth the drive alone.
This could be very interesting!
But then there was Sunday evening this past week. Heavy wind and rain. Yes, some are nice, others not so. Heck, even Dan postphoned flying the jet stunter because of evening weather.
It's a crap shoot....
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Why not start the official program on Tuesday and move the unofficial contests to Friday evening, Saturday morning. You might have more people for those contests after the stress of the official program is over. We could as a group celebrate the winners rather than everyone packing up and rushing out of town. Just my 2 cents worth as I have no dog in this fight, at least not yet.
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Why not start the official program on Tuesday and move the unofficial contests to Friday evening, Saturday morning. You might have more people for those contests after the stress of the official program is over. We could as a group celebrate the winners rather than everyone packing up and rushing out of town. Just my 2 cents worth as I have no dog in this fight, at least not yet.
I am interested in moving the non officials to Friday evening and Saturday as well. Much better to cancel unofficial than official. Also allows the banquet or barbecue. In the old days half a was flown at the end of the nats. Don't bring half a back, but classic etc. Might be more enjoyed with official events out of the way. 2 cents.
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that sounds like a good IDEA .it would give Sun And Mon for practice
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Moving the unofficial events to Friday will end the unofficial events. Sorry guys, that just isn't a viable option.
Derek
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Moving the unofficial events to Friday will end the unofficial events. Sorry guys, that just isn't a viable option.
Derek
Why? ???
Keith
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YES,WHY??
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Because nobody will show up to fly them at the end of the week, especially if it could be canceled depending on what happens in the main event.
They have to be completed before the official events begin.
Derek
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that sounds like a good IDEA .it would give Sun And Mon for practice
They have Sunday and Monday for practice now. Putting the unofficial events on Fri. and Sat probably not a good idea because so many of the volunteers that run those events also work in the official events and may not be willing to stay. In addition, a good many of the guys competing in the unofficial events also compete in ADVANCE and Open official events then leave for home, so they are not there all week. Another reason as Derek has said they would not show. There is something to be said about all these un-official events being at the front of the schedule. There is a togetherness and comradeship with the mingling of these guys and gals with each other and with the Open guys during the days leading up to the qualifying days. You have more competitors, more aircraft, more fellowship resulting in a happy inspiring fun time. If we put the unofficial events at the end of the schedule most all the official event volunteers will be gone.
Doug
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Moving the unofficial events to Friday will end the unofficial events. Sorry guys, that just isn't a viable option.
Derek
Why is that? If it means AMA would take the day they I agree but if it is not then I think having them at the end would enhance participation. I am not including Advanced and intermediate as "unofficial" for this discussion. They are a separate issue. I am thinking of the Classics and Profile which we don't offer now. A lot of fliers will not fly these events before Open. However, after Open is finished, I am sure that there would be some that would fly both.
I think the goal in redesigning the format should be #1 Hold the days, #2 try and not spread any one event out over any more days than necessary. #3 don't kill any judges. I really like the idea of using the evening. If nothing more than for unofficial events.
One thing that has been suggested is to fly qualifying in full rounds instead of groups. 2 each day with one flight per judge set. I think that will get you a better top 20. I know that seems to go against #3 but it is no different than two rounds at a large local.
My #2 has been one of my complaints about the NATs since I returned to PA. It's format makes it difficult to attend.
I was hoping that this would spark it's own thread but, since the Brenda bashing has run it's course, hear is as good a place as any. As the Executive Council does it's thing how about making the discussions as public as possible. Who is on the council currently, I tried in vain to find the list on the PAMPA web site.
Ken
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It would not increase the amount of time (AMA gives until Saturday now). It just moves the official flying schedule up one day. I probably wasn't clear about the unofficial events, leave Beginner and Intermediate on the Sunday before, fly OTS and Classic after the official contest is over. I think you might be surprised at how many people would stay to fly. Most are checking out of hotels on Saturday morning anyway, fly Classic, OTS late Friday afternoon to early evening. Then people can still catch flights/drive out of town on Saturday.
I can't see people that currently fly OTS/Classic scurrying out of town right after the Walker Cup. As someone said earlier in the thread "people plan vacations and spend $$$ to attend the NATS" so why leave if you have the opportunity to fly/ spend time with friends you may only see once a year?
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As I see things, you have been running the Stunt NATS the same way for a good number of years. 20 or more?? You have had to make some adjustments on the fly due to weather and such, but always got most of the program in and the Walker Cup awarded because of the length of time that you have had to do it in. It has been just in the last two years, where a decision by some one in the AMA caused the contest to be cut short. The way it is now, you have some time early in the week for those who have traveled a great distance to rest up and acclimate to a ne time zone. You also have time for the un official events that a lot of contestants like to fly in addition to Advanced or Open to make it worth the drive and expense. During that time, many of you can work in some much needed practice to get machines dialed in for the area's conditions and altitude. Add in a lot of socializing that most of you really look forward to. This year and last year, some one made rash decisions, and did not take full advantage to the time allotted to give every possible chance for the contest to be completed. Last year it was because of threatening weather that never occurred, and this year just flat out ignoring the possibility that 2 hours worth of flying time would be available before sundown and that decision was made at noon! Everything and everyone was in place, and all that was needed was 2 hours and that became possible by 4pmor so? It's daylight until almost 9pm. Every effort should be made between sun up and sun down for the event to be held, regardless of what one person wants to do. Weather in the midwest is unpredictable. If you want to know what the weather will be like 10 hours from now you really won't know until that time. Guessing, and that is all it is, guessing, that things won't improve is the mistake. You have to be there and let the time elapse, and be ready to fly if some one's guess is incorrect, which the last two years has been the case.. In short, I would think REALLY hard about making any changes. Most serious NATS competitors are used to the drill you have now, and in my view is relatively relaxed and low pressure. Trying to compress the event to run it off in as short a time as possible is a mistake. You have all week to fly, so take that whole week to fly! It's out National Championship, it's worth the time and effort.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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One thing that has been suggested is to fly qualifying in full rounds instead of groups. 2 each day with one flight per judge set. I think that will get you a better top 20. I know that seems to go against #3 but it is no different than two rounds at a large local.
I am not even sure what this means. Surely you don't think we should try to fly all 40ish entrants in one group?
Brett
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I would also point out that the current format would have worked out perfectly fine this year, we had a plan that would have been entirely acceptable and gotten in all the flights - had it not been short-circuited. I don't think the format is particularly the problem, it's OK, we just have to stop giving up at the first sign of trouble (or giving up based on weather forecasts 4-6 hours out. ). We have had similar interruptions on both Top 20 and Top 5 days in the past, it caused some delay, but otherwise worked out. I can recall lightning delays, including a nearby lightning strike during one of my Top 20 day flights in maybe 2015.
This particular weather incident *was* undeniably more dramatic than any of the past incidents, maybe that pre-loaded everything. I lived in various tornado alley locales for 20 years as a kid, I can't recall ever seeing a more distinctive wall cloud scudding across the ground even on the worst day in Kansas. If I had a guess, they all got scared at the degree of carnage and jumped the gun on this decision.
Brett
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We could always put a call into ALASKA or wherever it is and them to turn the HARPP off. S?P
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Did no one see the weather front coming for Saturday?
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Most the forecasting I saw said it was going to be a pretty nice day with a chance of some light rain showers. Then when it did start to grow it appeared on radar to travel mostly north of us with just a narrow tail possibly sweeping through us. The storm grew out of proportion rapidly with little warning.
As to last year, the forecast WAS pretty accurate. The conditions were bad and DID NOT improve on Saturday. Jim Aron was still on site that Saturday and said it was totally unflyable. If we could have stayed this time we surely would have finished. But it would still have been a close call through a narrow window. Since these events seem more frequent both in Muncie and at home I for one think it smart to make some adjustments so we don’t get caught short again by man or weather. We have the time. We have half the entry we used to. We should be able to use our allotted time more wisely.
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Moving the unofficial events to Friday will end the unofficial events. Sorry guys, that just isn't a viable option.
Derek
I completely agree, for so many reasons. Let’s have them “possibly get a chance to fly” after all the official events have concluded and everyone has gone home.
A bad idea.
Curt
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FYI, Saturday late afternoon in our area of middle Indiana we had tornado warnings, 3+ inches of rain and registered 77 mph strength line winds. The big tent and several of the blue and white tents were destroyed. Sunday wasn’t any better, rain all day.
In all the negative post on the Nats, the main issue should always be safety.
Blessings
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It has become apparent in this thread that your group (RAD) is the only one she has any respect for. You guys can have her! The rest of us want someone else.
Derek
Sounds like a great opportunity for you to take a week of your vacation, unpaid, run the show, and show everyone how wonderfully talented you are and can even overcome the weather. They even have a pond for you to stroll around on when you're finished so you can baste in your accomplishments.
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I am not even sure what this means. Surely you don't think we should try to fly all 40ish entrants in one group?
Brett
That is exactly what I am saying but my post implied that I would be asking a judge to score 80 flights in one day. I don't think my life insurance would cover that. What I am suggesting is to throw out the "top 5 move on out of each group" and replace it with the top 20 from all groups. Each will have the same number of flights before each judge and everyone will move up a place when someone drops out, not just the ones in that group.
It is just an alternative. Qualifying is not really the problem here anyway. It is the overall scheduling.
Ken
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It has become apparent in this thread that your group (RAD) is the only one she has any respect for. You guys can have her! The rest of us want someone else.
Derek
Nobody in the Combat group, MACA SID (1/2A, Fast, Slow, F2D, and F2D fast) has any problems with Brenda that I'm aware of and she is the US Team manager for Poland this year, so maybe lighten up it's a very difficult job (ask Howard about 1995). Bye the way Brenda does NOT work for AMA. She is a volunteer just like those before who served as C/L CD. How about YOU volunteer?
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Nobody in the Combat group, MACA SID (1/2A, Fast, Slow, F2D, and F2D fast) has any problems with Brenda that I'm aware of and she is the US Team manager for Poland this year, so maybe lighten up it's a very difficult job (ask Howard about 1995). Bye the way Brenda does NOT work for AMA. She is a volunteer just like those before who served as C/L CD. How about YOU volunteer?
Really? I know full well that many in Cobat dislike her, and for the same reasons. The only time she shows up at the LPad is to harass people who are trying to unload their aircraft in the horseshoe.
For you information I have volunteered during multiple Nats, and one time, I came back a month later, and made the12 hour dive to ED the US Team Trials. I never left before the Contest was complete, on any of those occasions.
You are correct, she is the Team Manager. I happen to know all of the F2B Team Members, and to say that they are unimpressed with her performance thus far would be a huge understatement. I don't think she even replies to their emails. I'll put this in layman's terms so you can understand. She Sucks!
Derek
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FYI, Saturday late afternoon in our area of middle Indiana we had tornado warnings, 3+ inches of rain and registered 77 mph strength line winds. The big tent and several of the blue and white tents were destroyed. Sunday wasn’t any better, rain all day.
In all the negative post on the Nats, the main issue should always be safety.
Blessings
With all due respect Alan, after the awards were handed out we returned to our 5th wheel by the collapsed tent. It wasn't long until the L pad was empty. Went outside to look at the tent, and discovered the wind had subsided, and the RC Sailplanes were already back in the air. It was completely flyable. A bit later Tim Just was at the L pad looking for Howards wind sock. We ended up flying his plane until dark. Even with safety, the contest could have and should have continued.
The next day, it started raining at about 2:30 pm when we were pulling out.
Gives me SERIOUS doubt about ever coming again, driving all those miles, spending all that money to have something like that happen once again.
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I think some of the weather details are getting convoluted.
At 2:00 pm we were all on site, and it was very windy. 20 mph with gusts to 35. It was never a sustained 20mph for more than 1 minute, so it was still within our rules to fly. At 2:30 The pilots and judges agreed to wait another hour, possibly 2 to see if conditions improved. 2:35 Brenda shut us down, told us we were done, and left.
All of you on here defending her have obviously not put yourself into the shoes of those who spend hundreds of hours building, finishing, trimming and flying their planes. They spent thousands of dollars, and drove hundreds, or thousands of miles to be there. The completed 5 rounds of fierce competition to have the opportunity to fly for the Walker Cup. They had all that ripped away from them because ONE PERSON was ready to leave. If you find this behavior acceptable, I hope the same thing happens in your event next year, because you obviously lack perspective.
Derek
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And like Paul, I didn't leave Muncie until Sunday. At 4:30 pm it was stunt heaven. I would have gone back to the field, if I hadn't been packing for the trip home.
Derek
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Thanks …………I Would never wish bad luck to anyone for any reason. Have a great day.
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It's been 20+ years since I flew at the NATS but things haven't changed that much since then. I don't think there is a problem with the format, there is plenty of time to shift things around if good weather information is available (this is the big issue). Some stuff could be flown in the late afternoon or evening if needed. The ED should make this call based on available information and contestant input.
Seem the real problem is communications and chain of command. I think PAMPA officials should meet with AMA and get a procedure worked out for this type of situation were the ED's decide if the event should be called or delayed. There needs to be a succession plan to cover how a CD or ED's responsibilities are transferred in the event that someone feels they can't stay and finish their duties. Anyone can have a reason to need to leave but continuance of responsibilities is needed.
It has not been stated why Brenda made the call she made. PAMPA needs to get to the bottom of this and correct any miscommunication issue for the future events. This should help all CL events and allow the best chance of completion for the contestants.
Best, DennisT
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It has not been stated why Brenda made the call she made. PAMPA needs to get to the bottom of this and correct any miscommunication issue for the future events. This should help all CL events and allow the best chance of completion for the contestants.
Best, DennisT
Brenda was ready to go home because she had a 12 hour drive……
Just thinking out loud, is there any reason why we couldn’t have finished without Brenda being there?
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Brenda was ready to go home because she had a 12 hour drive……
Just thinking out loud, is there any reason why we couldn’t have finished without Brenda being there?
Because those are the rules. She has to be on site for all CL Nats activities. She is the CL Contest Director.
Derek
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Thanks …………I Would never wish bad luck to anyone for any reason. Have a great day.
Allen, I have the utmost respect for you. If you're referring to my comments, that were directed at those supporting Brenda, I'm sorry you feel that way. I was not wishing bad luck on anyone. I do not believe this situation has anything to do with luck. It was a deliberate action, and if those in other events think it was an acceptable decision, I just offered for them to try it out themselves, and to get back to me on it.
Derek
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It's been 20+ years since I flew at the NATS but things haven't changed that much since then. I don't think there is a problem with the format, there is plenty of time to shift things around if good weather information is available (this is the big issue). Some stuff could be flown in the late afternoon or evening if needed. The ED should make this call based on available information and contestant input.
Seem the real problem is communications and chain of command. I think PAMPA officials should meet with AMA and get a procedure worked out for this type of situation were the ED's decide if the event should be called or delayed. There needs to be a succession plan to cover how a CD or ED's responsibilities are transferred in the event that someone feels they can't stay and finish their duties. Anyone can have a reason to need to leave but continuance of responsibilities should automatically pass. I am disappointed in the AMA for not having a plan and PAMPA for not demanding one.
It has not been stated why Brenda made the call she made. PAMPA needs to get to the bottom of this and correct any miscommunication issue for the future events. This should help all CL events and allow the best chance of completion for the contestants.
Best, DennisT
You have hit on what should be #1 on PAMPA's list. Although I disagree on the format, it is for other reasons having nothing to do with what happened Saturday. I am ex-military and continuance of command responsibilities is both automatic and known by all involved. I never quite understood #1 why it was not John's responsibility to make the call and #2 why John did not automatically assume Brenda's responsibilities in her absence. I assume that John is a CD and as such having a CD on site is all *we* needed. In any case there were probably several CD's in the crowd that could have taken over. If the rules at that level preclude that then we need a rule change.
I am not quite as damning as Derek on a personal level, maybe there was a reason she abandoned her post, but his points are 100% on target and the fact that she is a volunteer makes it even worse. I read Paul's post and I agree. He would be missed, and I wouldn't even be noticed but the feeling is the same. Unless this is fixed, I will not be attending in the future and that is a life changing decision for me.
Ken
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Because those are the rules. She has to be on site for all CL Nats activities. She is the CL Contest Director.
Derek
Perhaps we just start with that rule. Get Brenda an out so she doesn't have to wait. Perhaps AMA can appoint a second for her in event of delays or weather. Like someone sitting in the office, or rc sailplane cd can oversee in emergency. As a start
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John is a cd, I’m a cd, there had to be half a dozen on site. It’s a matter of being the chosen one I guess. I don’t know that having a stand-in has been considered- maybe it should be. However had that brief window of weather not opened Saturday then we be in the same boat. That’s why I think we need to start and end sooner.
Dave
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This is an interesting discussion, but we still need to hear from PAMPA as to what transpired.
PAMPA is supposed to represent our interests with AMA. They need to meet with AMA, bring them the concerns and get some answers and report back to the membership. They need to get AMA to agree on a procedure for future events. Like I said before anyone may need to leave the event for whatever reason. That's ok, life happens, but we need to have a plan how to complete our events.
Best, DennisT
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There are a couple of alternatives:
DO NOT participate in the "traditional" Nats. No CLPA.
1) Sanction an event called the CLPA National Chapionships on the "L" pad in, say, September. Better weather and no pressure to vacate. The Academy would probably not provide any funding, but workarounds are possible.
2) Hold the event at an off Muncie site....there are several active clubs that have the space and accessability to do this. Rotate the site....
The AMA might not even notice.
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There are a couple of alternatives:
DO NOT participate in the "traditional" Nats. No CLPA.
1) Sanction an event called the CLPA National Chapionships on the "L" pad in, say, September. Better weather and no pressure to vacate. The Academy would probably not provide any funding, but workarounds are possible.
2) Hold the event at an off Muncie site....there are several active clubs that have the space and accessability to do this. Rotate the site....
The AMA might not even notice.
If it were that simple, I am sure it would have happened ages ago. Problem with the AMA is that we need them, they don't need us. BTW, school starts around here in August. Unless we want to dump our Juniors and Seniors we are stuck with Late May through early August. I think we really had it good with the Navy.
Ken
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Congrats and more to my kid brother and practice buddy, Tom Luciano who just won Advanced. I've known him since he was a toddler; having flown with his father , Mike and brother, Michael since the mid -sixties as members of the Union Model Airplane Club Union , NJ.
. If there was ever a more deserving winner of a model airplane contest, I've yet to find out. Because Tom is a quiet guy, you won't hear much or anything in the way of complaining from him.
While it's not my place to tell you of the obstacles life has thrown in his way, I can say that most guys would've reeled up and gone on to something else long ago.
Sorry Frank I didnt see this. Thank you for the kind words..
Tom
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>>>>I think we really had it good with the Navy.
Ken
I wasn't there but heard many many stories. While it sounds fun I respectfully disagree and the other competitors did too and created PAMPA.
I would thin PAMPA could ask the AMA if using an onsite ED in place of the overall CD in a very one off odd ball case like this would be acceptable. If not, why not, and how can it be made to be acceptable.
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This is an interesting discussion, but we still need to hear from PAMPA as to what transpired.
PAMPA is supposed to represent our interests with AMA. They need to meet with AMA, bring them the concerns and get some answers and report back to the membership. They need to get AMA to agree on a procedure for future events. Like I said before anyone may need to leave the event for whatever reason. That's ok, life happens, but we need to have a plan how to complete our events.
Best, DennisT
Paul, Matt, and myself are all on the PAMPA EC. We are telling you exactly what happened. Most of the other EC members were there, and witnessed the same thing. We are all in agreement that this should not ever happen again. What else would you like to know?
Derek
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I wasn't there but heard many many stories. While it sounds fun I respectfully disagree and the other competitors did too and created PAMPA.
I would thin PAMPA could ask the AMA if using an onsite ED in place of the overall CD in a very one off odd ball case like this would be acceptable. If not, why not, and how can it be made to be acceptable.
The Navy Nats were literally the reason PAMPA was formed...
Derek
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The Navy Nats were literally the reason PAMPA was formed...
Derek
Maybe I am misinformed since i was off fighting some silly war from '68 to '74 while all of this was going on and didn't get back into it till '75. I thought that 1972 was the last Navy Nats and PAMPA was formed in 73 or 74? Am I wrong?
Ken
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Maybe I am misinformed since i was off fighting some silly war while all of this was going on, but I thought that 1972 was the last Navy Nats and PAMPA was formed in 73 or 74? Am I wrong?
Ken
Thank you for making my case.
Derek
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PAMPA was formed at the 1973 NATS in Oshkosh WI. I was a charter member.
The original name was PAPA but was changed shortly after when it was discovered that PAPA was Precision Aerobatic Pilots Association. We needed the M to differentiate our organization.
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I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.
No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.
I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.
So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.
Brett
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I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.
No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.
I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.
So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.
Brett
Thank you Brett. You are absolutely correct!
Derek
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Thank you for making my case.
Derek
Maybe I misread your post. Are you saying that PAMPA was formed because of the Navy Nats or because we lost them?
Ken
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Maybe I misread your post. Are you saying that PAMPA was formed because of the Navy Nats or because we lost them?
Ken
It was formed because of the Navy NATS
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I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.
No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.
I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.
So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.
Brett
I couldn’t agree more!! The sad truth is Brenda’s actions overshadowed an incredible week…and I need to remind myself of that constantly as of this moment.
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I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.
No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.
I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.
So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.
Brett
Well said, agree 100%.
James
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I couldn’t agree more!! The sad truth is Brenda’s actions overshadowed an incredible week…and I need to remind myself of that constantly as of this moment.
I know you are disappointed and in some sense were robbed of a very big experience. All I can add is that *stunt can be a very frustrating event*, you have good luck sometimes, and bad luck sometimes, and frequently, both at the same time.
You did all you could do, you succeeded, and made it to the highest level of the event.
Brett
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I know you are disappointed and in some sense were robbed of a very big experience. All I can add is that *stunt can be a very frustrating event*, you have good luck sometimes, and bad luck sometimes, and frequently, both at the same time.
You did all you could do, you succeeded, and made it to the highest level of the event.
Brett
Agreed.
Derek
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It was formed because of the Navy NATS
Matt : Please elaborate if you will.
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I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.
No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.
I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.
So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.
Brett
Everyone,
I have not added anything to this discussion, but have been watching. I truly appreciate Brett's comments regarding the team's efforts to make the NATS a success for this year and wanted to add a few comments of my own. From the judges watching the flights (Mark Overmier, Joe Daly Jr, Joan Cox, Mike Eber, Mark Gerber, Mike Stinson, Steve Smith, Doug Patterson and John Simpson) to create the scoresheets for the runners (Beth Mills and Jeanie DeMauro) to bring to the tabulation team (Kathleen Patterson, Michele Lee and Colleen Gilbert) who calculated, verified and posted the scores in a very respectable time, this was a well connected team that worked great together. Points also go to Howard for creating the program that we used effectively this year and to Mark Weiss and Mike Eber for conducting the appearance judging portion of the event. I would also like to thank Mike Stinson, Dennis Adamisin and Mike Schmitt and their teams for their contributions in the unofficial events. Also a special word of thanks to Michele Lee for keeping everything so well organized. Sure made the whole event a lot easier.
While the NATS did not end as I had envisioned it, it is over and time to move on. I am taking a lot of good experiences in running my first major event and really appreciate the opportunity to have had a chance to run it.
Based on the experiences from this year, there are a lot of good ideas being kicked around to help make future NATS run smoother. As a member of the PAMPA EC I will do all I can to help make this happen so that future NATS can be enjoyed by all.
John
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I would again caution everyone about losing the bubble here - PAMPA was absolutely not the problem here, this was an issue with the AMA and weather. I think there are plenty of the right people asking the right questions on that topic, so that will play out as it does.
No one asked me, but since we are on this topic, I would take the chance here to say that I think I speak for all of the competitors when I say the PAMPA administration of this years NATS was *absolutely stellar*, we could not have been happier with the way John and Michele ran it, and they were doing all the right things up to the point the plug was pulled. It is unfortunate that it ended the way it did, but otherwise it ran absolutely seamlessly and for the most part, it was entirely transparent and you never even thought about it - get your order, fly your flight, get your score, move on, you never even had to think about how it happened.
I also had several long conversations with Mark Weiss, he has some good ideas, is seeking out inputs from some of the past EC members for context and lessons learned - and apparently boundless energy to work PAMPA issues. And at least some interesting - and bold - ideas that might tend to solve the remaining NATs issues.
So, while I am sure there are PAMPA issues to discuss/debate, it would be unfortunate if such stellar work by the PAMPA NATs crew - right to the end - got overshadowed or conflated with the very disappointing/anticlimactic end that was beyond their control.
Brett
Brett, you express so well what most of us feel about a job extremely well done by John Paris and his great team. Thank you again John and team for a job exremely well done.
Doug and Kathleen
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I too have followed the NATS reporting and say it was another greawt NATS until the end. I also believe Brenda did what the AMA told her to do. Hope this gets closed out before next year. Most of all thanks to all that did make the NATS happen. D>K H^^ H^^
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I would echo Brett's comments here: John did a fantastic job. It really was seamless for competitors. I know John and everyone working for him put in tons of work and it paid off.
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I would echo Brett's comments here: John did a fantastic job. It really was seamless for competitors. I know John and everyone working for him put in tons of work and it paid off.
Ditto!
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I have a real appreciation for Brett's eloquent wording used in regards to the outstanding job that John, Michele and his crew did. To have this "ugly mark" put on the 2022 US Nationals, to no fault of John and his crew, is extremely disappointing.
That being said, I was under the Pavilion and overhead the CL Contest Director say, "I have a 12 hour drive to get home" and that was it, the Finals were done. That DID NOT sit well with me. Then, I thought about Brett, Paul Walker, Chris Cox, Tim Just and Howard Rush who spent 3 to 5 days on the road, traveling 8-14 hours a day, over 2200 miles to get to Muncie. And then have to repeat it all over again to get home. A 12 hour drive for the CD seems pretty insignificant to me. (On the other hand, Dave Fitzgerald and I had it a little easier, as we flew from San Francisco to Indianapolis and rented a car and drove to Muncie.)
Putting travel aside, the cost for our 8-days to stay in Muncie hit me. All of us spent 1000's of dollars to be at what should have been the premier event of the year. Then to have this event end the way it did --- gut wrenching.
I am relatively new to attending the NATs. This was my third year and my first year competing in the Open division. Even though I’ve started building a new plane for the 2023 NATs, I can’t help but think about what happened last year, now this year and how weather played a role in shortening these event. So much so, that I’m questioning if I want to make the commitment in preparation, time and money to attend this event next year.
For the sake of the event, I really hope this gets worked out and never ends the way it did. It’s just a bitter pill to swallow.
Dennis
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I am the President of PAMPA and have been since April 1 of this year. I was the Nats ED in 2019, judged Top 20 and Top 5 last year. I attended our national championship this year and supported John and his wonderful team to the fullest of my ability; they did not need very much assistance!
I have waited to post here until I had concrete material to share. Rumors and hearsay waste everyone’s time.
Before arriving on the Saturday before our NATS, I had contacted Chad Budreau and asked for two hours of his time sometime during my nine days in Muncie. He was quick to respond and we met for two hours Wednesday of NATS week. Chad is the AMA Executive Director and we have known each other for about five years.
The purpose of my meeting with him was to make sure he was aware of my feelings that we as PAMPA members do not feel a high level of trust with his organization. I cited several examples and he was upfront and acknowledged that AMA has not been paying very much attention to CL and Special interest groups, like PAMPA.
He was very open and honest with me as I was with him. We talked about how to work together as I had started a very serious campaign to grow our membership significantly. The meeting ended and I felt very good about promises he made and actions that he has taken within one day of that meeting.
When the events of Saturday took place, along with others I was furious! As I was staying the night, I spoke to a few folks and by late evening, I had written a scathing letter to Chad. My message was too disrespectful to Chad so I decided to wait until Sunday. I sent him a revised message Sunday morning and he replied quickly. We decided to have a phone conversation on Tuesday, due to prior commitments he already had.
He called me on Tuesday and he had already received complaints from us but wanted me to go through everything that took place. I was very frank with him and asked some very tough questions about the shutting down of our event, especially with PAMPA being an AMA sanctioned SIG! I also shared the changes that AMA would have to make for us to return to Muncie for our. national championship. He understood completely.
AMA staff and their Executive Committee are meeting next week to review every step of the debacle, interview their C/L Director, establish clear and written rules that will absolutely prevent a recurrence of that Saturday afternoon. Again today we exchanged messages and last night sent each member of the PAMPA EC a detailed report on my meeting with Chad and positive outcomes that are underway at AMA. Until AMA has completed their investigation, we will not share unsubstantiated news with you.
Members of your PAMPA EC have spent a lot of their time going over what took place and what we can do to minimize weather delays. I am retired but have devoted all of my time to see this matter come to the proper outcome so we can all sleep better about our next NATS visit.
So, please rest assured that we are as on top of this matter as anyone could be. I have volunteered to go back to Muncie if that will make the process quicker but more importantly, in our best interests. This is not the time to trash the AMA for AMA top management did not terminate our most important day at the NATS. This will be resolved with a few of their key people being folks I have known in model aviation for some time and have stellar reputations.
Please exercise some patience. Their meeting would have been this week but a few key people are in Oshkosh for the annual Fly In.
Thank you all
Mark
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I have waited to post here until I had concrete material to share. Rumors and hearsay waste everyone’s time.
THANK YOU!
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That being said, I was under the Pavilion and overhead the CL Contest Director say, "I have a 12 hour drive to get home" and that was it, the Finals were done. That DID NOT sit well with me. Then, I thought about Brett, Paul Walker, Chris Cox, Tim Just and Howard Rush who spent 3 to 5 days on the road, traveling 8-14 hours a day, over 2200 miles to get to Muncie. And then have to repeat it all over again to get home.
I wish it was just 2200 miles, more like 2400, and I assure you, sitting there shivering from my fever with the seat heater on, the last 200 miles make a big difference. Just under 5100 miles round trip. CALTRANS managed to make my 10.5 hours yesterday more like 13.
BTW, send me a text so I have your contact information in my phone, I have your stuff and it needs to go away soon.
Brett
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I think that you will ultimately find that AMA headquarters and officials will not relinquish the decision making process regarding weather based cancellation to anyone. They have stated in the past that they are the stewards of the property and responsible and liable for anything safety related. They have indicated that safety related weather conditions like thunderheads, lightening, tornado warnings, , high wind advisories, etc. would be grounds for ceasing operations. Have they changed their minds? I guess Mark will eventually find out.
Was that the case here, and Maybe Brenda just voiced her opinion that she was ready to get on the road home? Did john ask her directly who "made the call" to cancel?
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I think that you will ultimately find that AMA headquarters and officials will not relinquish the decision making process regarding weather based cancellation to anyone. They have stated in the past that they are the stewards of the property and responsible and liable for anything safety related. They have indicated that safety related weather conditions like thunderheads, lightening, tornado warnings, , high wind advisories, etc. would be grounds for ceasing operations.
After a couple of us got zapped, the stunt event management decided to wait awhile. Weather was forecast to improve later, and it did.
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I don't think she even replies to their emails.
Brenda has replied promptly to my emails.
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Thanks for the update Mark.
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Thanks Mark for letting us know what's going on. I know you will do a thorough job of seeing this through to the end. Hopefully it will result in a clear understanding and some protocols that would prevent this from happening again.
Doug