News:


  • May 23, 2024, 09:14:34 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Spiking fuel  (Read 4152 times)

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 721
Spiking fuel
« on: September 25, 2013, 06:56:27 PM »
Somewhere in the past I heard about adding a couple % acetone to glowfuel. What is it supposed to do??  I will post my observations of adding 3% after I see some response from the engine gurus or those who have actually tried it. I am holding off my findings as I don't want to skew anyone else's opinions or actual results.
Don
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 06:29:11 PM by Don Hutchinson AMA5402 »

Offline Reptoid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 07:53:02 PM »
Somewhat popular in Europe when running no Nitro or very low nitro. Helps idle and maybe broadens needle setting but adds no power.
Regards,
       Don
       AMA # 3882

Offline Brian Hampton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 09:30:04 PM »
With zero nitro fuel 3% acetone gives about the same starting and idling qualities as 5% nitro. I've used it on a few occasions but seeing I get one flick starts with zero nitro anyway it's of no real benefit. Idling of course is only for the dark side crowd :). However it always puzzled me (and others) why Shell A Racing fuel contained 3% acetone which could only be bought in their own 20 litre drums until I discovered that the acetone reduces the hygroscopic ability of methanol.

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13755
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 12:09:57 AM »
Somewhere in the past I heard about adding a couple % acetone to glowfuel. What is it supposed to do??  I will post my observations of adding 3% after I see some response from the engine gurus or those who have actually tried it. I am holding off my findings as I don't want to skew anyone else's opinions or actual results.

  I have tried it, on recommendation from my father (who used it in speed in the 40's). I couldn't tell much happened as far as power goes, it may have slightly increased the run time, but it wasn't enough to be absolutely sure in the limited testing I did. You could smell it in the exhaust, I do remember that.

    Brett

Offline 55chevr

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 742
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2013, 03:49:58 AM »
Acetone is added in small quantities to methanol in motorcycle racing engines as an igniter. 
Joe Daly

Offline Gary Mondry

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 212
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2013, 10:55:48 AM »
I've never used acetone, but before we started to require and provide 10% of the shelf fuel for Class II Goodyear racing around here, we used to add Xylene to improve the mileage between pit stops.  Tank size was limited by rule.

Gary
AMA 10663

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2013, 01:33:33 PM »
With zero nitro fuel 3% acetone gives about the same starting and idling qualities as 5% nitro. I've used it on a few occasions but seeing I get one flick starts with zero nitro anyway it's of no real benefit.........I discovered that the acetone reduces the hygroscopic ability of methanol.

Brian,
What engines are you running with zero nitro? 
The reduction in hygroscopic action seems useful.
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Brian Hampton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2013, 08:56:29 PM »
Kim,
All glow engines but to limit the list to stunt then Merco 35, Enya 45 model 6001, ST G51, OS 40 and 46VF, Irvine 40RLS, Stalker 61RE and currently Enya 61CXLRS.

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2013, 03:24:37 PM »
Kim,
All glow engines but to limit the list to stunt then Merco 35, Enya 45 model 6001, ST G51, OS 40 and 46VF, Irvine 40RLS, Stalker 61RE and currently Enya 61CXLRS.

Brian,
Impressive list!  Are you running stock compression?

.....I will post my observations of adding 3% after I see some response from the engine gurus or those who have actually tried it. I am holding off my findings as I don't want to skew anyone else's opinions or actual results.
Don

Don,
Looking forward to seeing your findings.  Thanks.
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 721
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2013, 06:26:41 PM »
I was hoping for more info before responding but in any case, here are my findings. I flew two different airplanes, a '59 "T" Bird with a Magnum 36XL engine and the SBD Dauntless profile with an LA 46 engine. I got the same results in both cases. First flights setting the engine as my notes stated, both airplane went way too fast. I found I had to drop the launch RPM by about 400 to 500 RPM and I had to put about 1/4 ounce less fuel in the tank. I also thought the Magnum ran better than ever. The LA 46 only had a few flights so I need to get more experience with it. Approximately a 5% change in RPM and fuel. Now could someone explain the RPM change to me??

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2013, 07:14:40 PM »
I was hoping for more info before responding but in any case, here are my findings. I flew two different airplanes, a '59 "T" Bird with a Magnum 36XL engine and the SBD Dauntless profile with an LA 46 engine. I got the same results in both cases. First flights setting the engine as my notes stated, both airplane went way too fast. I found I had to drop the launch RPM by about 400 to 500 RPM and I had to put about 1/4 ounce less fuel in the tank. I also thought the Magnum ran better than ever. The LA 46 only had a few flights so I need to get more experience with it. Approximately a 5% change in RPM and fuel. Now could someone explain the RPM change to me??

Don,
Is this with 3% acetone and no nitro, or acetone + nitro?
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13755
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2013, 07:34:37 PM »
I was hoping for more info before responding but in any case, here are my findings. I flew two different airplanes, a '59 "T" Bird with a Magnum 36XL engine and the SBD Dauntless profile with an LA 46 engine. I got the same results in both cases. First flights setting the engine as my notes stated, both airplane went way too fast. I found I had to drop the launch RPM by about 400 to 500 RPM and I had to put about 1/4 ounce less fuel in the tank. I also thought the Magnum ran better than ever. The LA 46 only had a few flights so I need to get more experience with it. Approximately a 5% change in RPM and fuel. Now could someone explain the RPM change to me??


   Leaner because acetone needs more air?  I seem to recall something like that before.

    Brett

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 721
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2013, 08:10:36 AM »
The fuel I spiked was Omega 10% nitro 11% each castor and synthetic by volume. I would expect other 11/11 fuels would act the same way.

Offline Brian Hampton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2013, 09:06:50 AM »
Brian,
Are you running stock compression?
Well that's interesting, I replied about 12 hours ago but it seems to have disappeared.

However, I've run all my engines mentioned earlier with standard compression except after about 40 flights on the Enya 61RE I decided to raise the compression from the standard 8.8:1 because it uses a button head so is quite easy to change. I was aiming for 13.5 but overshot some machining and ended up with 12.4:1 and decided that was close enough. Results were very good with a much broader range of 4 stroking with a hint of 2 stroking but power at max revs with a 13.5x5 Bolly prop increased by 26% which was surprising. So far I've had around 60 flights with the HC head.

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 10:43:11 PM »
Well that's interesting, I replied about 12 hours ago but it seems to have disappeared.

However, I've run all my engines mentioned earlier with standard compression except after about 40 flights on the Enya 61RE I decided to raise the compression from the standard 8.8:1 because it uses a button head so is quite easy to change. I was aiming for 13.5 but overshot some machining and ended up with 12.4:1 and decided that was close enough. Results were very good with a much broader range of 4 stroking with a hint of 2 stroking but power at max revs with a 13.5x5 Bolly prop increased by 26% which was surprising. So far I've had around 60 flights with the HC head.

Brian,
8.8 to 12.4 is a substantial increase.  Your good results go along with what I've heard before about higher compression engines liking no-nitro fuel.  The button head certainly comes in handy.  Have you noticed any tendency for small changes in needle setting to make relatively large changes in runtime, either at low or high compression?  A flying partner of mine says he experienced that effect with a Rustler-Merco .61 on no-nitro (an engine which interestingly would not tolerate any nitro content).

Your countryman Geoff Goodworth emailed me and said that he has used no-nitro fuel successfully with other engines we commonly use here, including FP 20 and 25, Thunder Tiger GP 25, LA 46 and Brodak 40.  Something of a surprise to me.  It might be interesting to run compression increase tests on some of these engines, though the convenience of button heads isn't available, so machine work on spare heads might be required.

Don,
It's interesting that even though nitro and acetone both function as ignitors, nitro reduces runtime, while acetone increases it.  Possibly this is partly because nitro is also a secondary oxygen source.  In any case, it sounds like acetone could be useful when a bit more runtime is needed to get through the pattern and available tank space is limited. 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 11:01:10 PM by Kim Mortimore »
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Online Lauri Malila

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1635
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2013, 04:16:28 AM »
Hi.

I use no nitro and have ended up with a compression ratio approx. 10:1 (12,6cc/1,4cc head volume). I change the head volume +/-0,1cc according to weather, and normally I change venturi dia. In same ratio with head volume. It works for me.
But please note that when you increase the compression for no-nitro use, some oils become critical and can cause all kinds of @#$%. Castor oil works well in high pressure, and from synthetics at least Motul Micro 2T is good.

Lauri

Offline Brian Hampton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2013, 05:45:47 PM »
Have you noticed any tendency for small changes in needle setting to make relatively large changes in runtime, either at low or high compression?
It's difficult for me to answer that because, never having used nitro, I don't have any reference for it. What I can say though, based on how various fuels work, is that tuning is more critical with zero nitro than when nitro is mixed in.

It's interesting that even though nitro and acetone both function as ignitors, nitro reduces runtime, while acetone increases it.
This is kind of a follow on from what I said above. Nitro reduces run time (higher fuel consumption) because, compared to methanol, its fuel/air ratio is extraordinarily rich and also has an extraordinarily wide range of acceptable mixture. That's what makes needle settings easier than with just methanol. Acetone though has a much leaner air/fuel ratio being about halfway between methanol and petrol so adding petrol would increase flight times more than acetone. The air/fuel ratios giving maximum power for the various fuels are; methanol 4.5-6.5:1, nitro 0.5-2.5:1, acetone 9.5-10.5:1 and petrol 12.5-13.5:1.

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2013, 09:49:38 PM »

Thanks Brian, Lauri.  Very informative. 

..... Acetone though has a much leaner air/fuel ratio being about halfway between methanol and petrol so adding petrol would increase flight times more than acetone. The air/fuel ratios giving maximum power for the various fuels are; methanol 4.5-6.5:1, nitro 0.5-2.5:1, acetone 9.5-10.5:1 and petrol 12.5-13.5:1.

Yes, I recall now hearing that adding a small amount of petrol/gasoline extends runtime.
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 721
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 01:55:15 PM »
Interesting responses but none address the question of why I had to drop my takeoff rpm ~500 rpm. Run time is not a concern in my case, the rpm change is the big mystery to me.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4462
    • owner
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 02:09:03 PM »
Since acetone is a powerful solvent, how does one prevent damaging a dope finish just in case some raw fuel gets on the plane?  (it ALWAYS happens!)

Floyd
90 years, but still going (mostly)
AMA #796  SAM #188  LSF #020

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 06:16:12 PM »
Interesting responses but none address the question of why I had to drop my takeoff rpm ~500 rpm. Run time is not a concern in my case, the rpm change is the big mystery to me.

Don,
My guess is it may be that no one has run the tests on acetone as a fuel additive that could answer your question--at least no one on Stunthangar.  Fuel formula changes often require needle setting changes.  An answer to the question why might venture into the realm of organic chemistry.

Since acetone is a powerful solvent, how does one prevent damaging a dope finish just in case some raw fuel gets on the plane?  (it ALWAYS happens!)

Floyd

Yessirree.  Poor old dope takes quite a beating.  Come to think of it, straight methanol without either nitro or acetone might be the easiest on dope finishes. 
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9950
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2013, 09:46:28 PM »
This from the Fall Fallies topic on the main forum:

"This year, it was foggy and high 30's. Mark Scarborough expected short engine runs with his SSW Magnum .53 powered Avenger, and got all of that, with his engine quitting during the OH8. Dave Royer-Cotton stepped up and drove to the nearby K-Mart and got a liter bottle of Coleman Lantern/Stove fuel. Mark had about 3/4 gallon of 10-20 SIG fuel and on Dave's instructions, added 2.5 oz of the stuff. BINGO! Rule of thumb: DO NOT put more than 4 oz into a gallon of glow fuel. Dave says it lights off easily, and is one of the major reasons he gets 1 flip starts with his Merco .61 powered Humongus."

Regarding the different launch rpm, I can only relate one parallel...flying speed, experimenting with increased Nitro Benzine, the more NB added, the richer the engine needed to be at launch. Later, we changed to amyl acetate in much smaller amounts, and got the same peak rpm on the bench, with much higher launch rpm on the circle. No idea why, but my guess is it probably has something to do with heating the glowplug. Could be wrong!  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2013, 05:08:17 PM »
This from the Fall Fallies topic on the main forum:

"This year, it was foggy and high 30's. Mark Scarborough expected short engine runs with his SSW Magnum .53 powered Avenger, and got all of that, with his engine quitting during the OH8. Dave Royer-Cotton stepped up and drove to the nearby K-Mart and got a liter bottle of Coleman Lantern/Stove fuel. Mark had about 3/4 gallon of 10-20 SIG fuel and on Dave's instructions, added 2.5 oz of the stuff. BINGO! Rule of thumb: DO NOT put more than 4 oz into a gallon of glow fuel. Dave says it lights off easily, and is one of the major reasons he gets 1 flip starts with his Merco .61 powered Humongus." .......


Steve,
Cool.  Another readily available ignition/mileage additive.  Did Mark mention how much longer his Magnum ran after adding the Coleman fuel?  (I checked the Fall Follies topic to see if this was already answered).  Thanks.
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9950
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2013, 10:47:52 PM »
Kim...I don't know that a watch was put on the run time in the air, but it went from running out during or before the OH8 to making some laps after the Clover. We did some other things to avoid catastrophy, like fill the tank, start & warm the engine, set the NV and shut it off, top it up, restart and go asap. That didn't hurt either, but I think we tried that before doing the Coleman fuel, and it still was short. After the Coleman fuel was added, it was straight into officials, with only a ground run on the watch. We still did the warm-up & top off drill. There was some chance of having an 8+, but that was thought to be better than running out in a hazardous trick. Mark's airplane is still kinda pretty, after all...19 AP's.  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2013, 10:25:40 AM »
I dont have an exact time,, but on my second flight,, I tached it in the pits,, ( with care for other airplanes,, ) then went to the line and started-flew without retaching it,, I ended up with aas I recall 17 laps past the completion of the pattern. so given I did not tach it which generally leads to maybe thirty seconds,, I would say I gained about 40 seconds.
but that is not conclusive,, because typically I was running out in the first loop of the clover which acts as a cut off loop to the airplane,, regardless, it allowed me to complete the flight,,

the instances of running out in the overheads was rather early when it was still below 50 degrees air temp, so its hard to really use that as a good measuring stick
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 721
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2013, 09:02:35 AM »
I have found the answer to the acetone/RPM change!! Just prior to heading out to baton Rouge, I thought it would be a good idea to check out my equipment. One of the items was to check the battery in my TNC tach. It was down to about 7 volts! A new battery and Voila!!, now I am back to 9900/10k takeoff rpm. Appears that the tach was missing a small percentage of the blade counts at low voltage.

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2013, 09:32:09 AM »
I have found the answer to the acetone/RPM change!! Just prior to heading out to baton Rouge, I thought it would be a good idea to check out my equipment. One of the items was to check the battery in my TNC tach. It was down to about 7 volts! A new battery and Voila!!, now I am back to 9900/10k takeoff rpm. Appears that the tach was missing a small percentage of the blade counts at low voltage.

Good work Detective Hutchinson!  It goes to show how cause and effect are sometimes not so easily identified, especially when there is a likely suspect that turns out to be coincidental.  Sounds like either a design flaw in the TNC or something wrong with yours, since it's a situation designers would want to avoid.   

Thanks Steve and Mark.     
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 721
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2013, 02:27:18 PM »
Since the battery was well below nominal voltage, I would not fault the design of the tach. There has to be a threshold voltage where the circuit performance will start to degrade and in my case it appears to be about 20% less than the nine volt fresh battery number. Moral of the story? Keep an eye on your battery status!
p.s. None of the above helped my scores at Baton Rouge!

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 721
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2013, 08:56:40 PM »
A bit more info. Even with the low battery voltage, the tach read 3600 when near a fluorescent lamp so one cannot trust this diagnostic. Check the battery voltage! In my opinion now, the acetone had almost no effect on how the engine ran.

Offline Russell Shaffer

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1333
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2013, 10:00:21 PM »
My best estimate, and that's what it is, is about 20% increase in run time  with 10% nitro fuel and a Stunt 35 by adding 1 ounce of Coleman fuel to a quart of glow fuel.  In the OT pattern, it got me from running out in the overhead 8 to being able to fly the pattern and not be short. I think the engine started better, but it sure wasn't any worse and the mileage did increase. 5% fuel might have given the same results, but I didn't have any to try. I also think that cold weather starting has improved, at least for me.  Unfortunately, none of this is any more than my opinion and not tested enough for even me to be sure.  Might be worth a try, though.
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Offline Steve Hines

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 495
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2013, 11:44:37 PM »
Coleman fuel is white gas, or no lead. nitro will not mix with gas. May act like adding water to you fuel, this will make you engine run longer because you will have to lean it out.

Steve

Offline Timothy Payne

  • Mr Payne
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 67
  • Classic Racer
Re: Spiking fuel
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2013, 10:50:50 PM »
I'm not sure about acetone, but adding 10% petrol to a low nitro mix helps cold starting no end during the winter months! (Remember to bear in mind that when adding to fuel, you're diluting the oil content so add a bit of oil afterwards.)

I've used up to 20% petrol in a 5% nitro fuel in an old 35 stunt to great effect, although it did start to run a little lean and overheat. It's probably best to conduct this experiment with a cold plug on an engine that you're not too bothered about damaging to begin with, ie a Fox 35 Stunt. (They're pretty tough anyway)

Just watch for the head turning to a slightly yellowish colour. - If this occurs stop the engine by squeezing the fuel-line until it stops. (Chellie has this down to an art, and I suggest you watch her utube videos featuring some of her work),


Good luck,


Tim


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here