Author Topic: 30 Coats of Paint??? (Read 3979 times)

Dennis Adamisin · « **on:** November 19, 2007, 06:10:55 PM »

I have never bult an I-beam, mostly because I have never been a very good finisher. The thought of filling/sanding/patching/filling & sanding some more over all those ribs creeps me out!

However I am trying to be brave. As I continue to comtemplate my Sheeks bird, and the finish, I was looking over an old 3-view of the Bernie Ash "Airon". On that it is noted that it was finsihed in 30 coats of Testor's blue paint over SGM silkspan. Sure, I believe that. Then in going over Fred Carnes series on the History of the I-beam he relates a story from Jim Ebejer(?) about an I-beam with 30 coats of paint - the covering surviced a straight in crash even thought the wood structure was destroyed inside of it.

That later story sounds like a bag of Monocote that usually makes it easier to carry the crash pieces! Is that the goal - to use as much dope as possible to toughen it up?

My usual preference is to use as little dope/filler/color/clear as I can to try to save weight (not that I am successful at THAT either) but that is as far from "30 coats of Testor's Blue" as I can get!

SO tell me I-beamers - do you use the 30 coats method or...? and how OD you finishi it without the infernal paper splitting all the time???

Bill Little · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2007, 11:16:05 PM »

Brother Dennis,

It seems that the "30 coats" comes from brushed on VERY HIGHLY THINNED dope. That's my understanding. Thin the dope so much that it is like a candy color then keep applying it until it covers. Not much actual DOPE and it is supposed to be really slick.

Me? The I-beamers I post get minimal paint. And they seem to turn out pretty good. Maximum of about 5 sealer coats of 50-50 clear, a coat of color and then clear top coat. I don't remember ever putting two coats of colored paint on a plane. But then, I guess it depends on what you call a *coat*!

I take out the spray gun and cover the plane with color, then let it dry, that is *the coat* to me.

I think I did spray 5 coats of thinned (50-50 to 75-25) Lite Coat on one of them, after the color, but it was just overkill......... Oh, yeah, no filler on the wings, they don't need it, at least mine haven't. Some three time World Champion who likes I-Beamers told me to rub the wing out with 0000 steel wool. No sandpaper on the silkspan wings. Doesn't cut into the ribs edges. Of course, it's a no brainer that you knock the sharp edges off the ribs (like you would cap strips) before you apply the silkspan/silk. I find that getting a smooth finish on I-Beam wings is no harder than a *normal* wing. Maybe brushing each filler coat of dope in a different directon helps?? I dunno.......

If you use urethane for the clear, it's stupid easy!

The Argus I posted here has 1 blocking coat of white (some drops of black in it!) 1 coat of Chromabase green, and 1 coat of ChromaClear. I used Duplicolor lacquer Filler/Primer on the wood areas. 3 coats of Super Coat to shrink (thinned 50-50) 3 coats of Lite coat (50-50) in the silkspan. No grain shows anywhere.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #2 on:** November 20, 2007, 12:01:45 AM »

Dennis,

I finished my '61 Argus (The one pictured in the article, not the one shown on the plans in the article) I also used the auto paint.

Use Med(I think) silkspan. Use a few coats of tautning dope (Nitrate, or Sig butyrate) Brodak clear is not taughtening. Then go to non-taughtning, either Lite Coat or Brodak. You don't want over-shrinkage.

I went the 2 or 3 coats of nitrate, then right to auto primer. Then as Bill said, 1 coat each color of auto base coat, then clear auto topcoat.

****A TIP I got from Billy... use 000 or 0000 steel wool over the open bays, instead of sandpaper.This makes sanding easy, with no sanding through the ribs.

The clear has a lot of solids so easy on it. My Argus weighs only 37 ounces ready to fly, so an auto finish does not have be heavy.

Trostle · « **Reply #3 on:** November 20, 2007, 08:20:16 AM »

Dennis,

Comments on two items:

1. In the 50's and early 60's, I can remember reading the accounts describing the airplanes flown at the Nats. In fact, I have the Air Trails Annuals from that period where the winning planes in the various events/age categories were briefly described. Those descriptions for the top airplanes in CL Stunt would state 20 coats of paint, or 24, or 30. I was always impresses with that. Though the photos published in those magazines/annuals were not in color, it was evident that the models had really great finishes. Then, several years ago, someone mentioned, perhaps tongue-in-cheek, that the coats of paint numbers reported in that era might have been progressively inflated by whoever was next to turn in the survey on his model. I do not doubt that some of those numbers were correct. And I do not doubt that some people still go to similar effort for the finish they put on their models.

2. Regarding the Bernie Ash Airon: You might want to do a search, because the plans for this design has been discussed previously on several of these forums. Before the untimely loss of John Davis, he had copies available of what he said were taken from one of Ash's versions of this model. Tom Dixon lists the Airon in his plans service. I am not sure, but I think what Tom Dixon has available is from a source that is much more accurate, if not based on what Davis had, than what you would get by trying to enlarge that drawing that came from the Jul/Aug 63 issue of American Modeler. Let me know if you want to something more to chase down a copy of the Davis plans.

Keith Trostle

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #4 on:** November 20, 2007, 09:04:35 AM »

Hi Keith!

You've seen enough of my paint jobs to know I'M THE GUY they invented Moneycote for!

However, as much as I like the stuff I do not think the m-cote is stiff enough for an I-Beam, that's why my consternation over silkspan and ALL THOSE RIBS.

I remember hearing and seeing the rports of the "30-coat" paint jobs and thinking "yeah right", but when you see it often enough sometimes you gotta wonder if there were kernels of truth in there. I suspect a lot of the finishes from the 50's & early 60's WERE brushed rather than sprayed; if so several 50-50 thinned coats probably was not a bad approach to minimize brush strokes.

I would suspect that after 30 coats (if it WAS true) the covering would be mostly cellulose reinforced by silkspan. In short, it would probably have mechanical properties similar to Monocote!

EddyR · « **Reply #5 on:** November 20, 2007, 09:15:05 AM »

Here's a interesting thing about the Airon's they all used the same tail [stab & elevator} and the same flaps. The first planes tail and flaps went on the next plane.The last plane had the flaps and tail from the first plane. Not just the same size but the same ones.
Ed

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #6 on:** November 20, 2007, 09:18:10 AM »

Dennis,
A thought for you regarding I beamers and Moneykote. Reports have it that some parties are silkspaning the structure, putting a couple shrinking coats on the silkspan, then moneycoating over it. YOu get the best of both worlds there, the strength and rigidity of the silkspan, and the shiney of the moneycoat,,,, I think John Miller, aka Jobellcrank, did this on his All American Eagle (?)

Bill Little · « **Reply #7 on:** November 20, 2007, 09:37:07 AM »

AS Mark said. covering with moneycoat over silkspan is often done today for I-beam planes. And if anyone likes the looks of moneycoat on an I-beamer than, by all means, go for it!

To me, it is a form of blasphemy!

The Airon will be published soon........................ CAD plans developed from drawings/measurements taken from the original.

Eddy is right, at least on Bernie's OWN Airon's, he used the same tail feathers on all four versions. Flaps and wheel pants, too! But I am not sure if there were not MORE than four that Bernie at least STARTED, since he was prone to wad up a plane and trash can it at ANY point in the construction phase.

Also, I do not know how many Airon's Jim Vornholt had. He did win Jr. or Sr. (or both??) around 1961-62 at the NATS. Jack Sheeks also said he had built a few Airons in the day, including that his FW-190 "has a LOT of Airon in it". I backed this up by comparing the airfoil templates of both which are identical except for length.

Ron King · « **Reply #8 on:** November 20, 2007, 09:49:27 AM »

The hardest part for me is the filling of a billion ribs on an I-beamer. Granted, I've only built one, but it took at least 8 coats of thinned nitrate before I could cover the wing with medium (GM) silkspan. Then it took at least eight more coats before I was ready for color - and that was for a high school model builder.

I can easily believe 24 coats of dope, just to get a reasonable finish - and 30 coats is not out of reach for a nice finish.

Ron

Trostle · « **Reply #9 on:** November 20, 2007, 10:31:37 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on November 20, 2007, 09:04:35 AM

Hi Keith!

You've seen enough of my paint jobs to know I'M THE GUY they invented Moneycote for!

However, as much as I like the stuff I do not think the m-cote is stiff enough for an I-Beam, that's why my consternation over silkspan and ALL THOSE RIBS.

(clip)

I would suspect that after 30 coats (if it WAS true) the covering would be mostly cellulose reinforced by silkspan. In short, it would probably have mechanical properties similar to Monocote!

Dennis,

I would imagine that your dad could confirm the validity of some of those claims of 30 coats of paint. In fact, I could easily believe that he was guilty of doing something like that. His Dewoitine comes to mind. Then, there was a Spitfire that came from your area at about that same time. (Did that Spitfire get the Testors Award one year?)

As far as dealing with silkspan (or silk) over a multiribbed wing, one thing that helps a lot in the finishing process is the use of 0000 steel wool. It is a lot easier than wet sandpaper to control how much material is being taken away on those edges of the ribs. But I am sure you already knew that.

Keith

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #10 on:** November 20, 2007, 11:08:22 AM »

Keith:
My Dad's Dewoitine was all sheeted/OO silkspan (he preferred that to Jap tissue) over the wood, a couple coats of clear, filler, color and clear: maybe 12-14 coats from bare balsa to finish. HE could finish, I can't!

BTW, I think you are thinking of LeRoy Gunther's Spitfire. He won Testor's with that and his Gieseke Nobler. Both were fully sheeted with "normal" finishes including Jap tissue (he preferred that to the 00 silspan) fillercoat paint and clear. Again probably 12-15 coats wood to gloss.

For me, even my ten foot finishes looked better from twenty feet. I've only had a handful of birds that even warranted rubbing out!

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #11 on:** November 20, 2007, 12:15:00 PM »

Dennis: Just a thought here
Walt Pyron (who's planes were always immaculately finished) told me that one of his secrets was 2 layers of silkspan. I finally got around to trying it on a "Smoothie" that is on my paint stand at this moment. First a few coats of nitrate and sanding to prepare the structure then as an experiment I covered the wing w/ two layers of light silkspan, the horizontal tail with one layer of medium.

The light was a pain to put on - newer tissue, little wet strength but it worked out OK. The Med easier. 2 coats of nitrate after the first layer, then on goes the second layer. Again nitrate then buyterate. It was soon clear that the 2 layers of light were stronger than the single layer of medium and filled in much faster. I sanded through 3 times with on the tail, same technique netted no sand throughs on the wing. You may want to experiment with this technique. I'm sold and think it would work well on an I-Beamer. No noticeable weight penalty, just a little more work putting the second layer on. BTW - one of my most cherished stunt momentos is the pin your Dad gave me at an early VSC. He's the best!

Randy Powell · « **Reply #12 on:** November 20, 2007, 12:34:41 PM »

It should be noted that the I-Beam structure is dependent on the covering for strength. So it's not really a good idea to use "00" or "GM" silkspan on the wing. Use SGM. You don't really pay much, if anything, in weight, but gain a lot in strength. And it's harder to sand through so doing the sanding on all those ribs isn't a big deal. I'm currently refinishing a Cobra and used SGM and used 1 coat of unthinned, high shrink dope and 3 coats of unthinned non-taunting dope on the silkspan. This was followed with a light and brief hit with "000" steel wool then shot it with primer. I sanded the heck out of it using first 220 grit aluminum sterate paper then 320, then 600. Didn't go through in a single spot and it's ready for a sealing coat of 80% thinned clear then color.

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #13 on:** November 20, 2007, 01:11:20 PM »

I could see 30 coats on a brushed on finish easy. I've done 15-20 coats on some of my older (very crude) brushed on finishes, especially if you are using something that isn't very opaque, like ......yellow. It wouldn't be hard to get to 30+ coats....

Steve

EddyR · « **Reply #14 on:** November 20, 2007, 09:08:51 PM »

Quote from: Ed Ruane on November 20, 2007, 09:15:05 AM

Here's a interesting thing about the Airon's they all used the same tail [stab & elevator} and the same flaps. The first planes tail and flaps went on the next plane.The last plane had the flaps and tail from the first plane. Not just the same size but the same ones.
Ed

Before I wrote the above quote I had another but it got lost so here it is again. I can answer the questions about the 30 coats of paint and the Airon. In the 50's and 60's I use to put on 10 coats of clear and then as many as was needed of color. Many of these were sprayed from 1955 on. We use to wet sand every coat so we were removing a lot of weight. None of these planes were heavy. Most weighed 35-40 oz with a Fox .35. At the 1988 Nats I made one last effort to reproduce one of my old finishes. I had a ST/46 Powered Juno that weighed 46 ounces. It had over 30 coats of clear on orange silk and it looked like you could put your finger in it and stir it. It had a deep finish that no one had seen in years. It was center second row right behind Jimmy Casale 20 pointer. Duke Fox wanted me to say it had a Fox in it so he could use it in his adds.It was hard to turn down what he offered me. I loaned Bill Little my Tom Dixon plans of the Airon with the notes and numbers for three Airon's. Tom's plans are the magazine plan but they are nothing like the original Airon. The last Airon that Davis had in his garage was the largest one. I came up with the numbers by measuring the last Airon and talking to people who had built them and pictures I was loaned and long conversations with Davis about Bernie's building style. He put on the coats of Airo Gloss until it looked the way he wanted. Some of his planes were very heavy. Jack told me that Bernie had to fly his Airon;s very fast to get them to turn. That is the reason each one got bigger to carry the weight. Double covering the center one third of the wing was normal on all I/beams in the day. Most of My I/beam wings do not fail in a strait in crash. The body comes apart but not the wing. Just the opposite from what one would expect.
Ed Ruane "Building I/beamers since 1958"

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #15 on:** November 20, 2007, 10:02:35 PM »

Quote from: Steve Fitton on November 20, 2007, 01:11:20 PM

I could see 30 coats on a brushed on finish easy. I've done 15-20 coats on some of my older (very crude) brushed on finishes, especially if you are using something that isn't very opaque, like ......yellow. It wouldn't be hard to get to 30+ coats....

Steve

Steve
That makes sense. Yellow does not cover very well, and red (like so many of the classics used) is also bad that way, especially if you brush it - lotsa coats would be needed.

Another question I cannot get out of my head - If you use "30 coats of Testors Blue", then how many coats of TRIM color do you use???

I think Keith's point - that the story gets a little better with each re-telling - has a lot of merit! Thirty coats of FINISH is a little more plausible, thirty coats of Testors Blue (prededced and followed by how many coats of what?) is a little harder to swallow.

Pete C:
My Dad did the double silkspan trick once - worked great and was very durable. He also did a Veco Hurricane with a layer of silkspan followed by a top layer of silk. Was able to fill the grain of the silk VERY quickly, and again a good tough finish.

Sounds like the double silkspan is working out well for you - Don't forget the FOTOS!

Ed:
You hit on another point - a 30 coat finish sounds heavy - but historically we know that the classic I-beamers (and others) were anything but heavy.

Was that Juno 30 coats of CLEAR over clear silk? It does sound awesome.

If that airfoil printed on tthe Airon 3-view is accurate I would not doubt that the Airon was not a happy airplane going slow - heavy or light!

Ty:
you are right about moneycote on I-Beams - but it is just SUCH a natural!!!

Keith & Randy
NO, I have never used steel wool in finishing - but will now!

Bill Little · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2007, 07:01:24 AM »

Brother Dennis,

Now you done gone and did it........... I mentioned steel wool 8 posts before Keith and 12 posts before Randy........... but did you mention me?? NOOOOO..............

Ok, I see how it is...............

ROTFLMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!

EddyR · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2007, 08:47:15 AM »

Dennis here is the Juno from the 88 Nats

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #18 on:** November 21, 2007, 11:45:49 AM »

Quote from: Bill Little on November 21, 2007, 07:01:24 AM

Brother Dennis,

Now you done gone and did it........... I mentioned steel wool 8 posts before Keith and 12 posts before Randy........... but did you mention me?? NOOOOO..............

Ok, I see how it is...............

ROTFLMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brother Bill:
What can I say, I have this "gift" for cheessin people off!

I'm sure you'll get over it.... I have!

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #19 on:** November 21, 2007, 12:59:32 PM »

Bill:
Also, forgot to say "I'm Sorry" (see I TOLD you I can cheese people off!) Let's see if I can make it worse by asking you for more advice after snubbing you. I presume you use the steel wool DRY? Do you use it everywhere or just on the wings?

Ed:
That Juno is absolutely stunning.

I see what you meant about being able to stir the finish! Did you do the opaque paint early in the process and thus get all those clearcoats over the opaque areas too?

De Hill · « **Reply #20 on:** November 21, 2007, 03:47:15 PM »

Regarding finishing, Charles Mackey said it best.

"It's not how much paint you put on; it's how much you sand off that counts."

Bill Little · « **Reply #21 on:** November 22, 2007, 12:48:46 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on November 21, 2007, 12:59:32 PM

Bill:
Also, forgot to say "I'm Sorry" (see I TOLD you I can cheese people off!) Let's see if I can make it worse by asking you for more advice after snubbing you. I presume you use the steel wool DRY? Do you use it everywhere or just on the wings?

Ed:
That Juno is absolutely stunning.

I see what you meant about being able to stir the finish! Did you do the opaque paint early in the process and thus get all those clearcoats over the opaque areas too?

Hi Brother Dennis! LOL!!

Use the steel wool dry. And like Ty says, it needs to be "dry" steel wool of the 0000 type. I haven't found a real need to use it on the solid surfaces, but definitely on any covered areas! Steel wool along with knocking off the sharp edges, after doping the bare wood, really helps. So far, knock on wood (or head in my case! LOL!!), no holes in the I-Beamers when I use the steel wool. Go easy and work out the technique, it takes a little longer I guess than sandpaper.

Dave Reyes · « **Reply #22 on:** November 22, 2007, 08:11:45 PM »

I love building I-beamers and pretty much that's about all I build. My latest effort a Hawker Hurricane is turning out to be a step up from my past ones. Yeah it can be time consuming but is very light and there's nothing like seeing all those ribs shinning in the sun. Some things I've done is basically followed Windy's technique for finishing. Joe Adamusko lays it out pretty much on his Stuntress article from PAMPA I believe. Some things incorporated on the Hurricane that really made a difference are as follows:

As mentioned before round off the edges. After applying 4-5 coats of clear thinned 50/50, primed each rib with Brodak primer thinned 50/50 and carefully sanding to remove as much as possible. Follow with a coat or two of clear then cover with medium silkspan. 4-5 coats of clear thinned 50/50. I then took some light silkspan and tore by hand, (going with the grain) strips about 1/4 inch wide and applied down each rib leading edge to trailing edge. Torn edges are much easier to hide then cut ones. Using clear thinned 50/50 applied 4-5 coats down each of the strips. Carefully wet sand with 600 grit along the egdes of each strip. The edges just about disappear by now. Takes some time but there's little weight added and you get a decent substrate to work with.

Above techniques pretty much eliminates the tiny divets that often appear along the rib edge. Using silver for the filler coat I sprayed it on and carefully wet sanded with 600 grit between the ribs only. Did this 3 times then applied as need to areas that needed it. By now the wing is ready for your basecoat, I used silver. Add your color followed by 7-8 coats of clear starting off at 50/50 and increasing thinner as you go. Last coat goes on at about 25/75 clear thinner mix. Wet sand with 1200 grit and final coat of clear thinned 75%. Then buff it out. A very respectable finish is obtained before the 1200 sandout if you don't want to go that far. This all takes time but to me the time is worth it. I guess with all this it adds up to about 20+ coats huh?

I've used the 0000 steel wool in the past with good results.

Dave Reyes

Trostle · « **Reply #23 on:** November 22, 2007, 09:04:07 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on November 21, 2007, 12:59:32 PM

Bill:
Also, forgot to say "I'm Sorry" (see I TOLD you I can cheese people off!) Let's see if I can make it worse by asking you for more advice after snubbing you.

(clip)

Do you use it everywhere or just on the wings?

(clip)

Dennis,

I am gong to barge in here, even though you asked Bill Little the question. Bill did answer and I agree with what he said about using it dry and on the wings. But I think you will find that it has its uses also on the sheeted surfaces. You will be surprised how well it evens out the material that has built up on the surface and how easy it is to control how much maerial you are removing prior to the next coat. In fact, I think you will find yourself wondering why you have not been using that 0000 steel wool all along.

Keith

Ron King · « **Reply #24 on:** November 23, 2007, 08:12:34 AM »

Quote from: Dave Reyes on November 22, 2007, 08:11:45 PM

This all takes time but to me the time is worth it. I guess with all this it adds up to about 20+ coats huh?

Dave,

By my count, you have 31 coats - not counting your color coats. My arm is tired from reading this.

Your technique of tearing thin strips to cover the ribs is labor intensive but sounds like a great idea. It sounds similar to the techinque of double covering, without adding much weight.

Thanks for sharing and welcome to Stunt Hanger.

Ron

PS - I have attached a photo of Dave's latest Hurricane.

Don Hutchinson AMA5402 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 23, 2007, 11:05:51 AM »

Tearing the silkspan will give you an easy to hide edge but it is hard to tear it in a straight line. Lay the silkspan over the edge of a board and use sandpaper to cut it. This would be an easy way to make nice uniform strips for covering the ribs.
Don

Dave Reyes · « **Reply #26 on:** November 23, 2007, 07:44:40 PM »

Don,

Now that's an excellent idea! I know what I'll be doing next time. Tearing the silkspan was not one of my favorite task.

Dave Reyes

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #27 on:** November 24, 2007, 07:18:14 AM »

Man I am learning a LOT of cool tricks here! All of my airplanes from 1969 - 1982 were fully sheeted (built up or foam) so that I would not have to deal with open bays! The last Eclipse was and open D-Tube - and would have to be recovered if I am to restore it to active status. Sheeted wings are nice to work with but require primo wood - always hard to find and getting worse.

I never "prepped" the ribs as described here - knocking off the edges then sealing prior to covering but that should certainly help. Never heard of "taping" the ribs like Dave described. That would certainly help. Never used steel wool on a model finish either - but that would certainly help in rib bays & such.

You guys are going to get me into I-Beams AND get me off my moneycote addiction!

EddyR · « **Reply #28 on:** November 24, 2007, 09:55:23 AM »

Here is a method I have used a few times on I beam wings and it makes them bullet proof. I cover the wing with regular silkspan and put on two coats of thinned dope I then lay a layer of Jap tissue on top of the silkspan and use thinner to lock it down. A lot of small wrinkles will get in it but after one coat of thinned dope they will all sand out. The covering is so tough that it is hard to put a finger through it. It is a very light method of covering and the Jap tissue fills very fast. Do not try and put the Jap tissue on with dope.
Ed

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #29 on:** November 24, 2007, 05:46:23 PM »

Quote from: Ty Marcucci on November 24, 2007, 09:13:52 AM

Taping the ribs is an old trick. Surprised your dad didn't tell you about it. But like most kids you just went, yeah, yeah what does the old man know? Right Ok not so.

Actually, one of the things my Dad and my big brother taught me was "don't build I-beams" because of the paper...!

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #30 on:** November 25, 2007, 08:00:14 AM »

Dennis,

Unless I am mistaken, Charles Lickliter used Jap tissue on his Ballerinas. I know that I don't have the skills with Jap tissue to do that!