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Author Topic: Chipmunk in a little trouble  (Read 1770 times)

Offline Clint Ormosen

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Chipmunk in a little trouble
« on: February 14, 2008, 03:49:30 PM »
It seems that Duplicolor primer and dope are not completely compatable. I sprayed the 'Chip with clear to seal the the primer and it melted out some of the fillets and various other little spots. I didn't spray heavy, but I'm still trying to get used to these new Finex spray guns. The non-shrink dope was mixed 50/50 with thinner. Both are Aricraft Spruce products. I'm sanding out the melted areas and will hit them again with the clear and hope for the best, but now I'm a little worried about the total adhesion when I start masking out the trim. I don't want to pull up the base coat.
And VSC is comming up fast!
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2008, 06:25:03 PM »
What material did you use for the fillets?
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2008, 07:07:45 PM »
What material did you use for the fillets?

Epoxolite.

OK, I sanded them out and re-shot w/ clear. Still bubbled some primer, but not near as badly as before. One more time and I think I'll have it. It's ONLY the primer that's being affected, not the fillet material.
Only going to use dope primer/sealer from now on. I used grey dope for primer on the Mustang and didn't have this problem. But it didn't fill as fast either.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2008, 07:36:35 PM »
I have heard that some of the duplicolor primer is enamel based. Is there any chance that your can is enamel? that would certainly cause the problem you are describing.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2008, 10:37:54 PM »
The can of the stuff I bought from Schuck's Auto said lacquer on it. They also had some enamel primers. Mark is right, that's sure what it sounds like. The stuff I got is call Primer/Filler and came in both a rattle can and a quart can.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2008, 11:01:39 PM »
This is true. 

Plus, I never spray primer directly on the fillets, either.  I try to get as little paint as possible on the fillets.  All lacquers shrink anyway.

I can't say much about the Epoxilite, though since it's been at least 20 years since I used any......... I just never did like the stuff.  Switched to regular epoxy and microballons as soon as I first saw them.  Been using the stuff (of course I cannot remember the name! LOL!! ) from Aircraft Spruce for the last couple years.
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2008, 06:16:47 AM »
I have heard that some of the duplicolor primer is enamel based. Is there any chance that your can is enamel?

It doesn't say. All it says is Truck, Van, and SUV primer. Must be the wrong stuff. How many primers do they make?
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2008, 06:54:30 AM »
The stuff we are talking about is a big all gray spray can which has filler/primer on the front.
It is also available in quarts.

I have shot every imaginable type pf paint over that stuff with no issues at all, so it surprised me when you said you had a problem.  I have even used it several times as a *sealer coat* to keep stuff under it from being affected by a new top coat material. 
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2008, 08:53:05 AM »
I think the problem is more epoxolite related.  I use the stuff but it has its issues.  It is famous for creating adhesion problems.  A few tips:  Don't smooth it with a wet finger.  Use something else such as the handle end of a small Xacto knife to form your radius.  Keep a pan of water handy and run the wetted handle over the epoxy until you get an even radius.  The excess will smoosh out the sides and can be removed before drying with a single edge razor blade...then leave it alone until dry.  It will be a little rough but that give the paint something to hold onto. 

The rough texture will be filled in by the time the paint job is finished.  Let it cure completely then clean it with alcohol or prep-sol to get all the grease off of it.  Then lightly rough it up w/ 220 sandpaper.  Then clean it again, and using a brush, apply a couple of coats of NITRATE dope and allow to dry.  Now you are ready for the application of primer, paint, whatever.  Using this technique I seldom have adhesion problems.  If one develops, sand back to the material and repeat which is what you may have to do if your problems persist.  ~^
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2008, 10:58:52 AM »
REspectfully, with intent to educate not prove anyone wrong. Laquer is an interesting material. when you spray a coat of laquer, a large portion of the solvent does not evaporate immediatlyl, it actually makes its way from the new coat down into the previous coats all the way to  the substrate. when it reachs that, then it reverses direction and evaporates out. Or it continues through the substrate in this case balsa and can evacuate the other side I imagine. I know that on cars, sheetmetal and filler, laquer will dry much faster over sheetmetal than over layers of built up primer because the solvent is absorbed less by the underlying layers. NOw that being said, if this is in fact enamel primer, its apparantly staying tight enough to survive partially. However over the fillets what could be happening is that there is no layers of material under it to absorb the solvent so itis bubbling the surface. where there are other layers of laquer under the primer, it wil  absorb a portion of the solvent allowing a slower evaporation and less likely hood for bubblling to occur. The physical reason that material bubbles is because it has dryed and established its "finished dimension" IOW it has decided how much space it will occupy so to speak. then when you introduce solvent as in laquer into the dryed volume of enamel, it does not reflow like laquer does, it cannot vary its volume to accomodate the influx of solvent and in trying to it swells underneath causign surface tension to get very high causing the paint layer to flex and swell, poof bubbles.
Hope this explains a bit.
of course this is all theoreticall because we arent there watching it happen but it sure sounds like laquer over enamel.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2008, 11:33:07 AM »
HI MArk,

I definitely agree that it does sound like lacquer over enamel, but fillets have been bubbling for 50 plus years when even the same brand of compatible materials are being used, i.e. Sig butyrate over Sig butyrate, over Sig butyrate....... and I have seen it happen to the very best finishers in the business.  It sure seems to happen a lot less when *non tautening* dope, acrylic lacquer, or base coat/clear coat is used after the initial shrink coats (if necessary) are used but never apply shrink dope directly to the fillets.  Hence the advice I have always been given to never spray directly on the fillets, just let the over spray coat them, so to speak.  I have always applied my fillets as the last part before I begin the colors.  This has seemed to work decently over the years.

It's kinda like the old guy Ilearned soem body work from.  He wanted to hit you over the head with a body hammer if he caught you using much Glazing putty since it will always shrink (*red lead* types, solvent based).
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2008, 07:30:09 PM »
Since the Duplicolor can is not what you guys are using, I'm guessing it is enamel primer. But now that its down, I have to deal with it. There is no way to get it all off. So any suggestions on the best way to spray over it. I've been more or less dusting clear 50/50 dope over it. So far not too many bad areas. I'd like to shoot the white base now. Should I just spray one good coat of color and see what happens?

By the way, I feel like a total idiot about this.
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Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2008, 08:43:17 PM »
Wrong primer for sure. The Truck and Van primer is not what you want. That's why I always tell folks to look for the Filler primer or the Sandable primer, these are the lacquer based products and they have been bullet proof for me.

Sorry for your trouble Clint, but don't give up on the Duplicolor, its great stuff!
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2008, 11:12:25 PM »
IMHO, your best bet if you insist upon continuing with what you have is to build everything up with thin layers. They have to go on wet enough for adhesion, but without stacking a ton of solvents on it. As you build up some film thickness you should see a reduced sensitivity. Make sure you give PLENTY of time between coats. Do you have a complete covering of the primer on the airframe or is it just filling low spots? One of the things you will notice is that the edges will be much more sensitive to lifting, the film is thinner there and so the solvents attack it more. Not to mention that the solvent creeps under the edge and softens the lacquer underneath it.

Bill L, I have read tons about fillet problems so I understand. I really didn't gather that he was having problems stricktly with the fillets, but due to the nature of the lacquer enamel reaction, It would also be the most likely place to have a problem of this nature, incidently, I believe the cause of the fillet dilemma is the  same thing, no where for the solvents to go and it breaks down the bond allowing the shrinking action inherant in the lacquer to "pop" the finish off the epoxy.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2008, 12:30:07 AM »
>>All it says is Truck, Van, and SUV primer. <<

Yep, that's the enamel stuff. Mark is probably right. I'd probably try to sand as much off as possible; all of it if you can. And reshoot with the correct stuff. Baring that, just go easy on the amount of thinner when you go to shoot color. The more thinner, the more likely you'll disturb the enamel primer and have problems.
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2008, 09:38:14 AM »
Well, I'm going after it with the sandpaper today. I know I can't get it all off, but I sure can get it out of the fillet areas and anywhere else that it's thick. If need be, I'll shoot more primer on (the correct stuff this time) and re-block it. This is going to delay me a few days, but I'd rather the finish not peel off in flight. This sucks.
I should'a just painted it with Rustoleum. HB~>
-Clint-

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2008, 01:43:28 PM »
Don't fret, Clint. Truth is, I've yet to do a finish where everything went perfectly. Seems there's always something. If I ever have one go perfectly from bare wood to clear, I think I'll just hang it on the wall because I will have used up all the luck that plane has before it ever hit the air. Every time you have something happen, just figure out why it happened and try to avoid it next time. It's one of the reasons I always advocate using the same thinner and base material from the wood up. It just takes one more variable out of the equation. One of the reasons I got the quart can of the Duplicolor lacquer primer was that I could mix it with the same thinner I had used for the dope build up. Another variable taken out of consideration.


Don't worry, just hang in there. You'll get it done. Sometimes it seems that I will never get a plane done. It is very tempting to just say, I'm not fixing that because I just want to get it done. But if you go back and fix whatever and do it right, you're always happier in the end. It's one of the reasons I get frustrated when there's a timeline on a plane (like having to get it ready for VSC or whatever). Sometimes you just have to say that has to be good enough. I usually displeased later, but such is life.

Just hang in there. You still have time.  :)
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2008, 06:29:49 PM »
Another idea is to recoat with Polycrylic, for a buffer layer. You'll need to scuff the substrate and again scuff the Polycrylic (for "tooth"), but it should "insulate" the enamel from the lacquer. The bad news is that it doesn't smell good, or at all, actually.  H^^ Steve
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Chipmunk in a little trouble
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2008, 08:15:45 PM »
Another idea is to recoat with Polycrylic, for a buffer layer. You'll need to scuff the substrate and again scuff the Polycrylic (for "tooth"), but it should "insulate" the enamel from the lacquer. The bad news is that it doesn't smell good, or at all, actually.  H^^ Steve

That was probably a good idea, Steve. But I already started spraying layers of dope. In fact, I painted the white base coats today. Everything looks ok but for one little spot in a fillet. I can live with it at this point.
-Clint-

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