was just wondering if it would be difficult to add flaps to the brodak magician kit ?  does it show how to do it in the plans ?

Hi Adam,

While I have not seen the Brodak (Original) Magician kit, I had the Midwest Magician.  Not a tremendous difference.  I would think it would be a simple fix to add flaps.

However,  flaps might not be of a huge advantage with that model.  They fly very well, flapless.

Big Bear

I believe the biggest difference in the two kits is about 5 inches in extra wingspan on the Midwest kit. My Brodak kit is a great flyer with no flaps, would like to build the "bigger, not original from Midwest plans" someday.

ok guys thanks for the info. im just starting out on the stunt pattern .  so far i think its really cool .

I have been considering getting this kit to build as my first C/L kit build in 30 some years.  Was going to put one of my old 1964 version Fox 25's on it and maybe fly it on 52' lines.  I need some suggestions as to how to cover and finish it.  Silkspan vs plastic film.  Which do you think would be lighter.  I've heard that maybe the Brodak dope isn't so fuel proof from a pattern guy who used it.  Maybe my old Sig dope would hold up better.  Also wanted to know how to apply carbon veil.  Any hints & tips are appreciated.  Remember fondly flying the smaller version of the Magician with a Fox 19 back in the 60's.

Adam and Dan, here is a pic of my Brodak Magician. OSla .25 , 3 oz. clunk tank on muffler pressure, mono and rustoleum with minwax clear poly coating . Flies great, no flaps. The os engine pulls this plane with authority, i would imagine an older fox .25 would do fine. Good luck with the build and let us know how it works out   

John

That's strange that you lacked control response with thinner lines.  My experience in days gone by has been that airplanes usually flew better on thinner lighter lines. Less drag. But I've not experienced the exact situation you spelled out so I don't have experience with your combination.

No Videos; Here is a couple of pictures of my Midwest Magician with flaps flying at VSC several years ago.

Hi Tim,

Yep, the Magician, in all it's "forms" is a really good flying airplane.  And the pilot makes the difference, all things considered in competition.  Seen awesome, high tech, planes finish behind some planes that appeared worn out or of lesser design.

A question:

The second year I placed first in Classic with it and the last year I placed second flying the airplane converted to electric.

Did you fly "last year" in the Advanced Class after "winning" in the Advanced Class the year before?

Thanks,
Big Bear

Does it really matter.  I have seen guys flying around here in one class and never moving up.  In the early years didn't it depend on how well you kept scoring as to what class you fly.  I know of one individual that if he thinks he is going to win Intermediate he will blow a maneuvr to keep from winning. 

Hi Doc,

Curiosity on my part, nothing really personal intended towards Tim.

It's just that after competing at Brodak's, myself, and Aaron having won Classic Intermediate there, the roar was deafening to the tune of "BOOT".  Everyone I ever saw win an event there (below Expert) got the same treatment, and were basically told they would not be allowed to fly in that class there, anymore.  I can understand that, and agree, but then I haven't had to worry about it.  Aaron has, however.  It has been a couple years since I have had the pleasure of being there and I guess things change.

My opinion (you can add $1.50 and buy a cup of coffee with that) is once you win a "Large" contest (and Brodak's is "LARGE", I am betting at LEAST as many participants as the NATS) you need to get booted.  Win Advanced at the NATS and it is automatic, no discussion, no questions asked.  You can bet the farm that once I get my first win in Advanced, I will enter Expert the next time.  WHY NOT?  If you are competing then the object is to get better.  I have seen too many people win at their class level, repeatedly, and yet, they stay there.  One "friend" actually stating he would NEVER move up, regardless.  One person won Advanced at Huntersville, a couple years in a row, and was told he had to move up to fly there the next time, he didn't........   That, to me as a person who spent their working life in competition, is pretty lame, friendships do not enter the equation, IMHO.  Was I highly "upset" that he didn't move up?  No, just disappointed.  I still consider him a "friend". 

Until you get to the very top, then the only way to get better is to face better competition, and winning a LARGE competition is a good judge of the need to move up, "IF".. 
If getting better isn't the goal, then why compete?

To each, his own, and what ever makes one happy is the final goal, after all...... I guess! LOL!!
Bill Little

   Not allowed?  Advancement is voluntary, those claiming otherwise are just wrong.

    Brett

Hunh?  I thought that in certain cases placement could be made at the discretion of the CD.  I know of that being done once in the last ten years or so in the southeast here, and that was done to move a career sandbagger up one class at one event.

I always felt that some of the cries of "boot" at Brodaks were done a bit tongue in cheek anyway, especially since it was usually Banjock and his Merry Men from Philly leading the cries of boot and doing it to practically everybody who got a trophy.  The cries for boot always used to be loudest whenever Windy would come forward to claim the first place trophy for Expert...

   Not allowed?  Advancement is voluntary, those claiming otherwise are just wrong.

    Brett

Hi Brother Brett,

Voluntary is the esteemed goal.  In some parts of the Universe, the CD can, has, and has the right to, set the competitors "class".  I have seen it done.  More than once.

As Steve said "Career Sandbaggers"......... they chafe my butt, in ANY endeavor!!! LOL!!!!!!!

No argument, just what happens.

Bill

Back to the Magicians.  (BTW, I drew them both).  Spectacularly wonderful design, especially for those wanting to work on their pattern.  Be advised that the Tail Volume Coefficient (TVC) is a little small to handle flaps and that is why both Magicians fly so well without flaps.  The biggest drawback to the design is the whole larger inboard wing panel (2 3/8").  It would be wise to reduce that by at least half.  That was an option many did in the 60's for good reason.  Personally, I'd make it equal panels.  Much easier to trim out the wallering in the corners.
Pat Johnston
Design Studios
Skunk Works

Pat, according to your post the builder has at least 3 choices ...
1) Chopping off 1 3/16" from the inboard wing and adding it to the outboard making both panels equal, or
2) Chopping off 2 3/8" from the inboard panel making both equal, or
3) Just shortening the inboard panel by 1 3/16" as many apparently did in the 60s.

Which is the best option for good perfomance?

Thanks in advance, Dennis

Dennis,
The Magician had one whole extra wing bay on the outboard wing.  My preference would be to simply build a new 1/8" sheer web and space the rib slots so they are evenly spaced for both halves.  Do use the same number of ribs per wing, obviously.  The new spar would have rib spacings at 2.5112352.  Sorry about all the figures past the decimal point.  This way 18 ribs (9 per side) are used and the original span is retained.
If you don't mind loosing a little wing area (about 25 squares), just lop off the extra bay in the left wing and go from there.  Simple, easy and will fly well, too!  The loss of the wing area is not too big of a terrif.
Pat Johnston
Balanced Wings
Skunk Works

Bill,

Sorry it has been a few days since I looked at the forums. I have a correction to make to my Win statement. I just happen to be rearranging the trophy area in my shop the night before last and realized I was not correct on my Win tally for the Magician.

2009 I placed third in Classic Advanced....My only place out of profile, classic and Pampa
2010 I placed second in Classic Advanced, First in Profile Advanced, Third in Pampa Advanced

I moved up to Expert after the Brodak contest for the rest of the year.....Voluntarily 

By the way I agree with you 100 percent, folks should move up to the next class when they win at a large event that is well attended. I say large because you need a fairly large group of your skill level to determine where you are. A small local contest may not tell the whole story.

Thanks sorry to hijack the post, I was merely saying that the magician is a very capable airplane

mines is almost finished all i gotta get done is the ruder and setting the offset ive read the book and just dont understand how they want it done do i start out glueing it on straight or what?

Like Dan said.

Personally, I would knock that sharp point off the LE, if you haven't already.

Big Bear

thanks dan for the help i understand now and as for the sanding i have taken alil bit off the LE not much though im scared of doing all this sanding and shaping and then smaking it in the ground since i am a beginner and now watch now that ive said this ill have llots of close calls but no crashes so i guess ill have to  make it look beautiful like all my models i build lol

Adam, check your side view of the plans and make a card board template of the leading edge. Sand and shape your leading edge then use the card board to check when you've reached the shape you need.

Tried to help you here, but RSM Dist.  nor Brodak Mfg show mufflers or silencers that will strap on.  Of course you can take an old radiator hose clamp and cut plus drill that will work if you drill and tap the muffler.   I don't know how to contact Scott Dinger as he may have one that works.   

I bought a machined muffler strap for an early  fox 35 from
Marvin Denny , these straps were made for the 35's with
no muffler ears.  Give him a call or email.