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Author Topic: Distorted TD cylinder!  (Read 1731 times)

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Distorted TD cylinder!
« on: October 13, 2013, 05:32:16 AM »
Hello All,
Not quite 1/2A but I think it appropriate. I have a TD 0.09 which had the head well stuck. I tried the usual baking in the oven and for the first time ever, it failed. I then soaked it in transmission fluid and acetone for a week. I held the c/case lightly in the jaws of my vice (used wood either side). I still couldn't shift it until I slipped a long series socket over the (correct) cox spanner. Wonders it came loose!. When I started to rebuild the engine, I found the cylinder had distorted (curses!). So how would you guys have tackled this absolute pig of a tight cylinder, without damaging it? I posted here because it is the same system as for the smaller TD's. I have omitted the other tricks that failed!

Andrew.

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Offline John Rist

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2013, 09:32:51 AM »
The exhaust ports on that one are in optimum position!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Offline Ron Cribbs

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013, 07:37:11 AM »
There are several ways to remove stubborn heads. Heat does work, but you have to heat the cylinder seperate from the head as aluminum will expand more than cast iron which makes it even harder to turn. I think Cox instructions say to never remove the head while the engine is hot.

Are you sure the cylinder is egged? Could it be possible there is a burr in the cylinder? If the piston won't go past the exhaust ports then it's a possibility.

Maybe next time you could freeze the cylinder/head and then remove it and quickly heat the cylinder only and the head should break free.

In your case it sounds as if a PO was a little over zealous when tightening the head.

Ron


Offline Gary Schrader

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 10:57:44 AM »
Hi All,

Me too had exactly this same problem only one month ago. Same thing as you, removing tight glow head. Reassembled and piston jamming towards top of stroke.. To say I was surprised is an understatement as I am not a ham fisted twit. Cylinder must distort through exhaust port area.

Gary

Offline Ron Cribbs

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 09:51:24 PM »
Gary,

On my above post I mentioned about burrs bring turned into the cylinder around the exhaust port area. The symptom of this is the piston hanging up around or just above the exhaust ports. This is usually caused by ill fitting wrenches. Before you toss the cylinder check the inside of it under a magnifying glass in bright light. You may very well see a burr. This is a common thing with Cox cylinders especially if a wrench was used in the exhaust ports to loosen the cylinder.

To remove a burr you can scrape it away carefully with a razor knife. If the burr is stubborn and you are really, really careful you can use a fine round file. Did I mention really careful?

Anyway it may very well be out of round, but it takes a good bit of effort to distort an .049-.15 cylinder. The .010 and .020 cylinders distort much easier.

Ron 

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2013, 12:41:31 AM »
Hi Ron,
I am sure it isn't a burr on the exhaust slot. I used the correct spanner. The socket didn't give much extra leverage, maybe 2 or 3 cms. It DID enable a much better grip. The binding comes in way past the exhaust ports. The trick of freezing is one which I should have worked out, I am a physicist! Just plain forgot what I was heating! I am certain that the upper cylinder region is distorted. I have had 0.49s with the dread burr on the ports, usually from young inexperienced kids that don't know better than not to stick a screwdriver into the exhaust slots! I have used swiss files to remove said burr. Sometimes rather a lot of material has to been removed! It doesn't seem to affect the running after it has been done!

Regards,

Andrew.
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Offline John Rist

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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2013, 01:19:03 PM »
Andrew, I probably have a cylinder I can spare.  I keep forgetting to check.  In the meantime, try lapping the cylinder using the piston and whatever you use for compound.  The piston is nitrided and very hard, and the cylinder is relatively soft.  So you may be able to get the cylinder back in round without harming the piston. 

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2013, 02:01:49 PM »
...The piston is nitrided...
Jim, I didn't know that. Chromium Nitride, I presume?

Rusty
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Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2013, 03:12:37 PM »
Hello Jim,
Thanks for that, I have been toying with the idea, but didn't realise that the cylinder was so soft (I suppose that is why it distorted in the first place!). Your input makes it a no brainer, I don't have a thing to lose, considering TD piston liner sets are scarce on the ground. It may take me a few days to do it as I have a pile of jobs waiting (my wife is in Australia and I have this list of job, you know how it is!
  Jim this may be a dumb question but how do you lap a piston in with a Cox type ball joint? No problem with pistons having a wrist pin , but,,,,,,,,,. I suppose you would need a miniature suction pad a bit like a smaller valve grinding tool? Now how can I fabricate or get one that is small enough?
  In case anyone is wondering why I wanted the cylinder off, well there was so much slop in the ball joint that I didn't dare run it for fear of self destruct. Amazingly it had very good compression, not in the least bit clapped out until I managed to do it!

Thanks Jim, I will report back with how I did it (?) and results!

Andrew.
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2013, 06:47:51 AM »
Reassemble the engine minus glowhead and backplate.  Put a propeller on the crankshaft.  Put a little lapping compound on top of the piston, around the edges.  Wiggle the prop, moving the piston up and down a little.  Move the piston higher and higher as the lapping frees it up.  If you can, leave about 1/16 inch unlapped toward top dead center.  Clean out well, oil and give it a run.  

Rusty, I don't know the details of the nitriding process.  But that is why the top and inside of the piston are copper colored.  Copper was plated before the piston was ground to keep the innards softer, not nitrided.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 03:29:01 PM »
Hello Jim,
I have always lapped pistons in by rotating them and moving them up and down. Never realised you could get away with just up and down. I never cease to be amazed at what you can learn on the forums!

Thanks Jim,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Online PaulGibeault

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 11:15:26 AM »
Hi Andrew,

For tough jobs like yours I would consider removing the head this way:
1. heat the cylinder with a torch flame.
2. get your wrench(s) in place.
3. have somebody spray aerosol 'super cold' onto the head while twisting the wrench.

The super cold spray ought to shrink the head enough to cause it to loosen... Oh well, next time!

Cheers, Paul

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Distorted TD cylinder!
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2013, 11:12:56 AM »
Hello Paul,
It was good to meet you at the British Nats. As for loosening the head, that wasn't the problem! It was getting the cylinder out of the crankcase. OK same solution, I am a physicist and SHOULD have known about the different coefficients of expansion. In fact I DO, but I put it down to the medication I am on!
  I have given Jim's lapping idea a good trial, but the distortion is too bad to do the job. Fortunately Jim has a spare cylinder so he has got me off the hook on this one. Thanks Jim!

Regards,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862


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