As far as I can tell, the plans indicate the 1/16"x1/8" spars lie down flat.  The rib notches could be interpreted either way (don't fit either one) but the plan view of the wing shows 1/8" wide spars, well actually about 3/32"...say, you don't suppose the ribs were redesigned for 3/32" sq. spars, and the notation didn't get changed?  That would certainly fit the "as drawn" rib notches and plan view width.  I'm gonna chew on that awhile.

Roger--welcome to the build!

--Ray

Hey guys,

Here's my thoughts on redesigning the wing--also, 3rd pic, the fuselage side as I see it--in 1/8" thick balsa (re: :fuselage sections/nose").  Reactions, suggestions?

--Ray

1/8th sides is overkill in my opinion for any 1/2A size plane.  3/32 is stretching it, and would be plenty!  Lot's of very large piped planes are built with 3/32nd sides.

Bill <><

Hey Bill ---- Nice to see you up and about. Hi

Ray----I can live with that. I like the tips, gives us more room for lead out positioning.
The drawing indicates to me that the flapevator will not be full span?
Is there a source for 1 1/8 spinners?

Wing spars:  The front two look like they're just support for the 1/32" skin; I'm thinking they could be the 1/16" x 1/8" called for, set on edge (1/8" deep slot in the ribs).  The third and fourth, supporting the skin edge and across the open bays, need to be a little beefier and are called out as 1/8" square--I think that would work OK. 

Note ribs R4, R6 and R8 are reduced to half-ribs in my scheme.  Whatcha'll think?

Oh--it doesn't really show up, but I like Frank's TE and plan to use it (1/32" x 1/2" sheet top & bottom, 1/8" square at final TE).

--Ray

Wing spars:  The front two look like they're just support for the 1/32" skin; I'm thinking they could be the 1/16" x 1/8" called for, set on edge (1/8" deep slot in the ribs).  The third and fourth, supporting the skin edge and across the open bays, need to be a little beefier and are called out as 1/8" square--I think that would work OK. 

Note ribs R4, R6 and R8 are reduced to half-ribs in my scheme.  Whatcha'll think?

Oh--it doesn't really show up, but I like Frank's TE and plan to use it (1/32" x 1/2" sheet top & bottom, 1/8" square at final TE).

--Ray

Ray I think your plan for the wing will work just fine. I hope you plan on generating the new rib drawings for us to work from.
I agree with your entire wing concept. Good thinking.

Roger,

Yes, please run the numbers,  it'll be interesting to see.  But don't forget the capstrips top and bottom, and then there's some indefinite weight in glue req'd to attach them. 

Re: warping tendencies, I believe the diagonal spar top and bottom will give good torsional resistance. I did a little more drawing that might clarify it some, see below.

Frank, the gear platform would attach directly to the bottom of the MM beams, right?  I'd think 1/8" ply. might be sufficient, maybe an inch or so front to back, 1 1/2" or so wide to span from outside fuse edge to edge. Then the lower 1/2" balsa block might could be notched out for the ply. and gear legs.  See the pics.

I also sketched a little more on the nose assembly to see how the LE and center ribs go on.

You know what, you're right.  OK we'll eliminate the ply. mount, simpler is always better.  Yes, the MM beams do run to--and through--#2. 

HOWEVER, maybe we might need 4 screws, 1 front & back on each side?  Give a little more lateral support maybe. Yeah, I like it.

--Ray

Back two spars, 1/8" sq.  Front two, 1/16" wide x 1/8" deep.  That's all I can let you have.  And I'm losing money at that. (long sad face, extended sigh.)

Yeah, the thinking's the hard part...tires me right out.  Now I gotta transfer the wing layout to CAD so I can plot out accurate ribs. Ooohhhh, will it never end??

GUYS..........................Here are pictures of former #1 and former #2 with the motor rails.


Here are my observations---------the fuselage sides will end at former #2 and glue to the front of it. I think we want to use 3/32 for the sides and sand down to former. The bottom block glues right to the rails and also buts against former #2.

Here is where perplexity enters the picture...........The carry thru??  As I see it the carry through will want to rest on top of the motor beams.with the back of the carry thru butting against former #2. As shown it runs all the way to and buts up against the back of former #1. Here are 3 pictures of the formers and rails stuck together and one drawing of what I think the carry thru is supposed to look like. Please study the plan (top, sideview and cross section).

What do you think?

No perplexity, Frank; I believe you got it.  Exactly what I was envisioning, glad you fabricated it and showed it works.  The back former (#2) leans back a little more, though, according to the side view...it's probably not sitting the way it will when actually glued in.  I had suggested making it from balsa but I see it's such an integral part of the whole MM assembly, ply. is better. 

3/32" sides oughtta work; means you must narrow down the back former a little.  The sides should glue directly to the MM rails, so there should be 3/32" between the rail-opening and the edge of the former.

Flat bottom, right...Again, I think 3/32" should be sufficient rather than the 1/8" shown.  Maybe even cut to fit inside the (rear) sides, and extend them down to the bottom of the bottom, if you get my drift...more glue area that way.

I like your concept of a completely shaped nose assembly before anything else is attached.  I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have occurred to me, or if it had, too late.  'Course it means we must have the gear, and spinner, before we can complete it.

What spacing are you using between the MM rails?  With the Norvels I usually use 11/16", then relieve the upper edges just a little to clear the crankcase.  3/4" fits a little loose.  Good if the engine is to have a little offset to it, but this one is shown 0-0, engine and rudder.  And only 1/4 oz. tip weight.  Maybe that's why the leadout guides are an inch and a half behind the CG.

Oh--before you put on the carrythru, you might consider relieving the beams 1/8" on the inside edge (with radiused ends)
leaving them 1/8" wide, from behind former #1 to the end.  I know that ain't clear...I'll try to post a sketch.  Anyway, the idea is weight savings.  I don't think it's too late to do it, as long as #2 isn't yet glued in.

gimme a few minutes, I'll post a pic.

--Ray

Ray, Frank,
I have two posts to this thread out there in cyber space.
Will hold off on a repeat for awhile.

Roger

Guys,
My lost posts were about weight saved.
In summary, removing (6) ribs/cap strips and a 3/8" strip in four places on center sheeting saves about 4.2 grams (.148 oz.).
The additional LE sheeting adds about 1.8 grams(.063 oz), aditional TE material adds ? TBDL grams.

Frank,
re spinners. Has a source been found?
Roger

TBDL  =  To Be Determined Later.

Ray is there any particular type aluminum used in making landing gear? We want 1/16 gear right?

I've been looking around for 1 1/8 spinners. No dice so far. Smallest I've found are 1 3/4. I think Jan will make them for me. I've never asked for three of anything before.

OK sounds good.  It'll probably help us avoid some pitfalls.

Having some experience drawing my own plans,  I can tell you consistency between views, and between major views and parts layouts, is not easy to attain! Doesn't seem like it'd be a problem I know, but just make one change, and there's half a dozen places you have to change it in, and it's easy to miss one. For instance, on these plans 1/4" may well have been the original thickness of that block--decision ws made to change to 1/2", they got it in the side view and sections and callouts (although even there it's called "1/2" square") but forgot about the former #2 layout.  Doesn't take many of those discrepancies to add up to a frustrating set of contradictory plans. I try not to be too hard on the plan drafters, just look for some logical explanation like the above to guess what the intent was.  I'm sure adding 1/4" to the former layout is the right thing to do.  Not chastizing your words but just trying to explain how it happens.  I agree it can be frustrating, on both ends.  Consistency is surprisingly difficult to maintain.  The closet demon of the plans drafter!

--Ray

Frank, 1/16" alum. is what we want, but I don't know the temper or alloy used.  Seems like there was a discussion of that somewhere else.  Maybe someone with knowledge will chime in here. 

Fuel tanks, yup, looks like custom made.  I'll probably do my usual film cannister thing, hog out the cowl for a close fit, set it on foam underneath and let the cowl hold it down.  I'm thinking we need at least 1 oz. capacity with the .061s.

Pics: Two film cannisters Gooped together.

--Ray

Guys,
What are the dimensions of the tank compartment?
I use a 2 oz sullivan cylindrical, gives 6+minutes w/.061. It is shorter than (2) film cannisters and about the same diameter. 1 3/8" dia and approx 3 1/4' long.
I wonder if my plans are in any of the mail trucks/planes stuck in the snow up there?
Roger   
 

I'm at 1 3/16 wide in the tank compartment Roger. I think it could go another 16th without changing the overall width of the formers. So the fuel tank is going to need to fit inside that space. There is plenty of length to it, so that isn't a concern.
I'm planning on making a tank out of tin and soldering it up to fit. If we were going to make lots of these planes I'd say let's make the fuselage wider to accomodate commercially available parts. But we're not so custom parts are the order of the day.
You'll probably get your plans today or tomorrow. Don't feel bad Ray and I waited nearly two weeks!!

Hi Guys,

I *think* this is in reference to the LG??

I used the K&S aluminum sheeting to make the LG for my Tomahawk.  Maybe .060??  I know it is the size that was close to 1/16th.  This plane got a *little* porky (almost 30 oz.) and the gear will spread out every now and then on a rough landing.  For the 1/2A Arrow, it would work fine!  I would even drill descending size holes in it to lighten it up.  I cannot see where a plane this small (under 10 oz., right?) could ever bend that aluminum unless the plane is totalled over tarmac.

Bill <><

Landing gear is what we're talking about here Bill. You are right on point. I'll google K&S and check it out. I have a flying buddy who is a top notch machinist. He'll be stopping by today to check out the plans and see about making the landing gear and spinners (1 1/8 spinners) for us. I hate to ask him to make 3 sets. Usually he makes stuff for me as a favor, but with 3 guys to make them for I think he'll need some monetary compensation.
I don't know why the guys who design these things can't make it so we can use off the shelf parts.

Frank, tell your buddy we'll pay anything reasonable...shouldn't lean on his friendship and good will very hard, esp. for the benefit of guys he doesn't even know!  His time is worth something after all. 

Seems like the gear oughtta be simple enough fabrication we could do it ourselves if we had the right material.  Cut it with a hacksaw (blade in my jigsaw), bend it in a vise I imagine, polish it with a Dremel wheel.  Use bolts for axles, right? Nothing to it.  Spinner, I agree, is another matter--I'll happily pay for one. 

Roger, re: tanks: My film cannisters just barely squeeze into a 1 1/4" wide compartment.  I do have the one tank made from ovals (first of my "tank" pics above) that I can use if necessary.  total fuse width is 1 7/16" approx., don't think you're gonna squeeze  that 1 3/8" plastic bottle in there without some modifying, widening the cowl or something.  And Frank, length may not be a problem to you but there's only 3 3/4" there and my double cannisters require every bit of it so that's gonna take some shoehorning...probably rerouting some lines.  The one drawback of the .061s...they are thirsty creatures.

--Ray

Frank, tell your buddy we'll pay anything reasonable...shouldn't lean on his friendship and good will very hard, esp. for the benefit of guys he doesn't even know!  His time is worth something after all. 

Seems like the gear oughtta be simple enough fabrication we could do it ourselves if we had the right material.  Cut it with a hacksaw (blade in my jigsaw), bend it in a vise I imagine, polish it with a Dremel wheel.  Use bolts for axles, right? Nothing to it.  Spinner, I agree, is another matter--I'll happily pay for one. 

Roger, re: tanks: My film cannisters just barely squeeze into a 1 1/4" wide compartment.  I do have the one tank made from ovals (first of my "tank" pics above) that I can use if necessary.  total fuse width is 1 7/16" approx., don't think you're gonna squeeze  that 1 3/8" plastic bottle in there without some modifying, widening the cowl or something.  And Frank, length may not be a problem to you but there's only 3 3/4" there and my double cannisters require every bit of it so that's gonna take some shoehorning...probably rerouting some lines.  The one drawback of the .061s...they are thirsty creatures.

--Ray

I just lost a post. For warp speed hi-tech this place runs kinda slow.

We need to make our own gear. I'll check the LHS for aluminum.

Jan is going to make up a prototype spinner for me. The picture shows what it will look like only 1 1/8" Praobably he'll want $25 or so for it.

There are issues with the Norvel Muffler--it doesn't have enough reach to extend out side the fuselage.

Good luck on the spinner hunt Roger. I hope you find them. If not I'm sure that you can fit the 1" one. And thanks for taking the innitiative.

The LHS does carry sheet aluminum. The sheet is .064 which is around 1/16 thick. 4" X 10'' is the size. plenty to make gear for the Arrow with. It may be a few days before I cut them out.

Any news on the ribs Ray?  I've been looking at your drawings and I think it will be just right for our .061s. Great work

So are you drawing the formers on wood? I'm slowed down so you won't have to work hard to keep up Ray. The Heat is taking quite a bit of time.

I'm thinking I'd like to have a muffler to throw the oil out of the cowl.

I'll draw up the gear later on and post a drawing with dimensions that you can copy. Luckily I have a band saw for cutting metal.

I think a 1" spinner will be fine. I think even no spinner at all would look good if the front end was done right. I did one of my stunters a few years ago with just a fancy prop nut and the plane looked very cool.

Looks good Ray.........I'm pooped and taking a rest from building but tomorrw I will cut these out and glue them together. We'll see how the engine fits then.
Good job. Mate.

I'll make the drawing of the gear using your numbers. outside number is 1 3/8. I will make the base of the gear to match.

Drawing will be posted shortly.

Very cool.  I think I could do that; I'll hit the LHS tomorrow and see if they have any alum.    The numbers are just what I need.  Thanks!

--Ray

PLEASE, if you are using the pattern for the formers I posted above, go back and read it again...I made a muh--muh--muh (so hard to say) muh-stake!  Sorry.

--Ray

Wuh, wuh, where is the muh, muh muhstake? I used that drawing to draw the landing gear!! Muh, Muh Lord!! This is all mussed up.

BTW--I keep luh looking for the patriotic Snapper on a certain web page....................................

Not UFO--Space Ship One.