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Author Topic: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!  (Read 4084 times)

Offline Jim Pollock

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Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« on: February 02, 2010, 08:54:43 PM »
Well, here I go again.....

It is my considered opinion that the easiest classic airplane to update for modern level performance would be........Ta Da!  The Shark .45.  All you need to do is add a pipe tunnel, stick in a PA .61,65, or 76 and increase the stab/elevator span to 26" and wa-la... a Modern day Precision Aerobatic plane that could do meaningful battle with the likes of Impacts, TP's, Infinities and so forth.  Does anyone else think another classic plane could be so easily converted?

Jim Pollock, still using the stir stick   S?P

Offline Larry Fulwider

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 08:32:37 AM »
. . .  and increase the stab/elevator span to 26" and wa-la...

. . .


In another thread, we were talking about the limited uses of TVC. However, “upgrading” older designs is a very valid use, my opinion. Simply calculate the existing TVC, plug in a more modern one (.45 or so), then piddle a bit and see what combinations of tailplane area increase and / or tail moment increase give you the desired TVC.
   That is a more dependable technique than “eyeballing” a 26”  tailspan (which might be right on the mark – haven’t done the calcs). However, that does not necessarily mean “Voila”. I would more say that giving the Shark a modern TVC is a necessary first step that should not be skipped. You should be able to move the CG back a bit to more modern trim settings, for example.

        Larry Fulwider

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 04:38:22 PM »
Larry,

Right you are.   And I forgot last night when I posted this that another power system like an eletric motor would be another possibility.  The Shark's TVC is fairly high stock but a little more wouldn't hurt.  Even my own classic eligible model the Akromaster has a TVC of .48.  I think a TVC over .50 would be great to obtain the higher performance of the modern era airplanes.

Jim Pollock

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 03:47:27 PM »
Bruce Hunt and Dave Sabon have been doing well with Sharks with big engines in them the last few years.
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2010, 09:51:54 PM »
Howard,

Bob Whitely has been doing rather well with his Hawker Hunter with a big engine too.  Of course the Hawker is nothing more than a shark in alligator clothing!

Jim Pollock   H^^

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2010, 11:20:40 PM »
Not sure you'd need to do much to a USA-1 either. Would be a killer plane with a PA 40UL and a pipe.
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2010, 11:10:44 AM »
Randy,

Yup,  USA-1 = Great airplane!  Nothing need be done to it at all!

Jim Pollock   y1

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 03:59:19 PM »
Not sure you'd need to do much to a USA-1 either. Would be a killer plane with a PA 40UL and a pipe.


Bob McDonald  has one with a  PA 40 Merlin in it, Billy flew it all day and  loves it, Bob has more than enough power with the motor detuned


Randy

Willis Swindell

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 07:32:54 AM »

Back in the early 90’s when I started to fly stunt as a beginner. I took several old stunt ships and brought them up to what I interpreted to to be modern moments. This is a picture of my equal span stretched fuselage Thunderbird. I also built a Ringmaster Imperial the same way.
Willis

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 08:24:47 AM »
Thats a cool T-Bird Willis!  Do you still have it up in the attic?
Steve

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 06:45:40 PM »
Ty
It had a terrible hunt I didn’t know any thing about trimming then. How they flew is how I flew them. LL~ I adapted. The Imperials engine froze on the first flight and was ripped out . I gave both planes to a friend and he wound up winning a couple trophy’s with the Thunderbird.
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Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 11:14:08 AM »
If you did increase the TVC on a Shark 45, would you simply increase it's stab./elev. span and project out the L/E & T/E lines? ...or keep the original tip chord and re-draw them. This would be a slightly different aspect ratio. Enough to matter?

Always thought this was  neat-looking model with the trike gear & unique fin.
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2010, 09:54:45 PM »
You don't have to increase the Shark's TVC very much.  Probably about 7-10% would do the trick nicely.
My shark with the stock area does very well with the fairly aft CG that it balances at.

Jim Pollock   y1

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 03:00:44 PM »
O.K., O.K. here is what I did to improve the Gieseke Nobler's performance for my Akromaster........

#1.  increased the wing thickness to 21% by increasing the planking to light 3/32" balsa.
#2  Increasted the TVC by lengthening the Stab/Elevators to 23".
3.  made up for lost side area on the simi-scale fuselage by increasing the vertical stab area to
      appear close to scale.  The real Akro had a very large stab/rudder.
4.  tapered the stab/elevators from 3/8" at the center section to 1/4" at the tip in order to help keep aft weight down.
     Weight is not an issue with newer engines so I have eliminated this step on the new plane.
5.   Increased the tip chord of the outboard flap 3/16"

If anyone is interested the Akro was designed in October 1969  construction was started in Nov 1969, but the aircraft was not finished or test flown until April 1971.  First flown at a contest in June 1971 (Fresno CA)  don't even remember what I placed.  I also flew HLG but do remember taking two trophies home, and do remember winning 10" HLG!

Jim Pollock   :P  Whew!  Ask Paul or Mike what I finished - - - Oh, right you can't unless your Roger Barrett

Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2010, 01:44:40 AM »
Hi Jim,

Where can we get plans for your Classic legal Akromaster?

What are it's numbers?
WS
WA
length
Is it similar to a Nobler wing, like a few others were?
Rudy
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Offline John Sunderland

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2010, 07:04:43 PM »
Not sure you'd need to do much to a USA-1 either. Would be a killer plane with a PA 40UL and a pipe.

Mark Messmer built a USA 600 with an Aero 40 light on pipe. Flies very well and is a bit smaller with no real issues and gobs of power.

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2010, 10:13:20 PM »
Well to perform with the *modern planes*, I don't know............ but I agree with The Man on the fact that the most improvement has been in power trains.  Most any Classic plane that was good in its day will be good today with better engines, which we do have now.

I have heard soem very high ranking pilots talk about the possibility of flying smaller ships.  Sounds good to me, in fact I am still planning on cutting the bottom out of a good flying Ares and adding a VF 25 on pipe.

Of course, like Randy P. said, a USA-1 doesn't need much of any changes other than a good engine up front. ;D

Bill
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Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2011, 05:26:30 AM »
Hey Bill.. Im in the finishing stages of my Ares with Stalker .61 - I'l let you know how good it is once its flown.
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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2011, 11:19:00 PM »
  I'm real interested in an Ares with a Stalker .61 in it .I bet the Olympus that Alan flies might just be what you are talking about.
             John

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2011, 12:34:22 AM »
I did fly my .61 Nobler in a few Regular expert stunt comps ( not Classic ) and performs amazing. Granted It wouldnt be my preference. A Modern day stunter is certainly more stable and more dynamic in corners.

 
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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Offline Pat Johnston

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2011, 07:12:46 AM »
OK, here is the straight poop on the Shark 45, and for that matter, the Shark 35.  The TVC is .420, which puts it in the middle range of modern stunters.  Also, the airfoil is one of the most excellent ones coming out of the Classic era.  All things considered, the Shark 45 comes as close to a modern full on stunter as there is.  With a good 50 - 60 sized engine it flies wonderfully and is a competitive as any other plane around.  I build one ten or so years back which weighed 52 ounces with a Magnum 53.  Wonderful flying machine.  Also had a Shark 35 with an LA46 which is a seriously potent combination.  Don't modify the Shark 35/45 and fly it in both Classic and PA.  Bruce Hunt flew his 45 for years in both events and never had to change the feel of the plane when changing from Classic to PA.  Smart, that Bruce.
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2011, 05:59:00 AM »
Hard to believe the Skylark hasn't been mentioned. All that needs to be done is use the 60 size stab with the 46 size wing from the RSM kit and modern power.

Offline John Sunderland

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 01:36:04 AM »
 No doubt the Shark is a benchmark design. A few years back when Lew was in better health, I was in attendance at a Lexington meet and Lew was out in the pits with a tape measure. After cordial exchanges, we asked him what in the world he was doing and he said had agreed to work as the design columnist in the PAMPA rag. He was also considering what he might do to update the Shark for a modern Super Shark design. I was pumped to see what he would come up with but it never materialized. After explaining some modern theory incorporated in my model I also let him know I surely didnt think the Shark needed a thing but maybe consider enlarging the stab/elev in span only. It already has a pretty good cord in my opinion and certainly more than most in that era.

I actually couldn't believe I was being solicited for advice from Lew McFarland. I was so new and green it was like being asked to play an original with the Beatles. I had to tell him so...I was honored. Nothing in my design was my own and I simply used every bit of modern thought at the time. Looking back at that conversation and with the advances in modern power over the last few decades I have changed my mind a bit about what I would change.

There isnt a soul in stunt that wouldn't agree that Lew was smooth at the handle as was the Shark at the end of the lines and he is the nicest soft spoken a man as you will ever meet. I always remember my Dad stressing that smooth and soft was better than tight and possibly jerky. Lew was "the Man" when I was growing up in these parts and of course my dads design mentor of sorts. Smooth and " the wing is the  thing" were thing I heard often as a kid.

These days you need a design that will corner like no other without faltering or stalling and still be smooth. I believe that a wing cord over 10" is excessive and does not necessarily corner as tight as we might want. I believe the Shark is 12". In fact, with modern power train and what seems to be worsening weather a smaller more efficient wing is desirable and many have migrated this direction over the last ten years. With an excess of controllable power, there is less emphasis on wing loading and more on wing shape where the LE is concerned. Stiff surfaces, the amount of flap percentage of the cord, and the shape and accuracy across that surface has been greatly improved. This is not to say there is anything wrong with the Shark airfoil. However, the way these were constructed often lends itself to an inaccurate shape and possibly too sharp at the LE depending on the builders ability and propensity of the builder to use a sanding block. Loads at the handle have been reduced and a different touch can be employed today rather than the heavy handed, broad gesturing type of dance often seen demonstrated in old film. Slightly nose heavy was more the norm than a slightly aft CG then too I believe. For that reason a model would balloon almost uncontrollably in big wind, not to mention old flexy wire push rods under load. So, as how we power,build and trim, has improved ...the less need for a big gun type wing, sexy as it may be.

If I were redesigning the Shark for modern era, I would use a Geobolt wing or a Sv 22 or 23 with 20 or 21% smallish flaps, at about 60' span and a longer span stab/elev. than the original at about 25 to 27 percent of the wing area and air foil shaped. I would use an electric motor and would only lengthen or shorten the nose and or tail to accommodate power train and the CG. The looks of this bird needs nothing.

Lew did some tail dragger versions and while I like the characteristics of trike gear on landing and take off, I dont like what it does to the feel of the plane in maneuver. So I might build it with forward wing mounted gear at 15% rake or with retracts! VD~. I mention all this because, several times I have considered sitting down and laying out the super Shark Lew was never able to get to. Such a lovely bird.


Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2011, 09:59:45 PM »
Im interested to know why people assume to " update to modern times " you need to make it larger. Certain people of interest are going smaller in design.  Looking at current trends of wing area vs power, we have steadily started coming down, now low 600's are normal. I foresee in 10 years mid 500's will be normal also with a smaller ship presenting better.

Im working on a project currently along those lines. Purpose built mid 500's stunter with 61
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2011, 03:42:34 PM »

There isnt a soul in stunt that wouldn't agree that Lew was smooth at the handle as was the Shark at the end of the lines and he is the nicest soft spoken a man as you will ever meet. I always remember my Dad stressing that smooth and soft was better than tight and possibly jerky. Lew was "the Man" when I was growing up in these parts and of course my dads design mentor of sorts. Smooth and " the wing is the  thing" were thing I heard often as a kid.



  Absolutely the same here. I insisted on my family taking us to the airshow at Bluegrass field every year - not to see the Blue Angels, but on the off chance that Lew would be doing a demo flight! I also bought just about every modeling supply I had at X-Cell hobbies (all three locations)

   I tend to agree that about the only change you might want is to increase the tail volume. I wouldn't  increase the span, I would scale it up proportionally. One of the features that was before its time (or the rest of us were 25 years late on) was the relatively low aspect ratio tail. That's a close-to-universal feature of our designs since the mid-80s.

   I don't think you need to do anything at all to the wing. We have all the power you could possibly use, and that solves any problem that might need solving as far as lift goes. The fact that it flew respectably well with an ST46 at 60-ish ounces was pretty impressive. But slap something like a 40VF in there and you don't have to worry about lift any more.

    Brett
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 09:59:42 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2011, 05:33:35 PM »
One of the features that was before its time (or the rest of us were 25 years late on) was the relatively low aspect ratio tail. That's a close-to-universal feature of our designs since the mid-80s.

Why?  I'm fixing to make mine higher.
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Offline Allen Brickhaus

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2011, 08:25:46 AM »
My modern Shark would be a tail dragger with dark blue on top fading to a light grey on the bottom and named the MAKO.  Would have a "nasty" Shark Eye on each side of the nose.  Never built it, but Jerry Pilgrim almost did the same thing with his Pilgrim's Progress in the '70's.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2011, 02:52:57 PM »
Why?  I'm fixing to make mine higher.

Why?

Offline John Kelly

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2011, 11:45:57 AM »
   "Chipmunk Joe" is alive and well and still comes down to FMP. Great guy!
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Offline Pat Johnston

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 12:48:34 PM »
Here is my Shark 35 to show off the trim.  I have redesigned the formers behind the canopy to allow for a fully sheeted transition from the fuselage sides to the fin.  This will make it look a lot more "Fishy".  That will be my next Shark 35.  Same trim.
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2011, 03:28:31 PM »
""The fact that it flew respectably well with an ST46 at 60-ish ounces was pretty impressive. But slap something like a 40VF in there and you don't have to worry about lift any more.

    Brett""


So Brett... uhh your saying  "we don't need no stinkin lift"  ??   LL~

Randy

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2011, 08:42:01 AM »
Hey Bill.. Im in the finishing stages of my Ares with Stalker .61 - I'l let you know how good it is once its flown.


Hi PJ,

Seems I missed the flight report on the Ares/Stalker .61. ???

Hospital stays and chemo therapy have sidelined my building for the recent past and the Ares-VF .25/PIPE project hasn't had any work done on it yet.

Bill
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2011, 09:31:10 AM »
Hospital stays and chemo therapy have sidelined my building for the recent past and the Ares-VF .25/PIPE project hasn't had any work done on it yet.

Shucks, coach, I saw you back here talking airplanes and I thought you were all fixed.  Get well, please.
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Offline John Kelly

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2011, 01:52:38 PM »
   Hey Ty... I'll be sure to say Hi to Chipmunk Joe for you the next time I see him, and remind him of his "PAISAN". Had to laugh about the fuel soak! Reminds me of when I was in my teens and had such a HUGE budget I was lucky to have a couple of coats of LEES TROPHY DOPE on my planes. Needless to say, "Fuel Soaked" was one of the more popular terms for describing them. I'd rather share my dope amoung several planes than try to make one look better since I felt that sand paper at four cents a sheet wasn't in the budget, so it didn't matter anyway. One of my brother Al's favorite comments was "Johnny doesn't care what it looks like...as long as it flies!"
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2011, 04:01:56 PM »
Shucks, coach, I saw you back here talking airplanes and I thought you were all fixed.  Get well, please.

Thanks, Howard!  About in the exact middle of my chemo treatments and they really do have a cumulative effect!
I appreciate the kind thoughts.

"Coach"
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Offline Dan Bregar

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2011, 05:15:39 PM »
Big Bear

I got a few extra prayers just laying around doing nothing, and I been wondering what to do with them.  Now I know.  I'll put your name on em.  :)
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Offline Dan Bregar

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2011, 06:03:39 PM »

Lew did some tail dragger versions and while I like the characteristics of trike gear on landing and take off, I dont like what it does to the feel of the plane in maneuver. So I might build it with forward wing mounted gear at 15% rake or with retracts! VD~. I mention all this because, several times I have considered sitting down and laying out the super Shark Lew was never able to get to. Such a lovely bird.


[/quote]

Would a tail dragger version of either the Shark 35 or 45 be classic legal ?  :)
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Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2011, 06:51:34 PM »
Bill Little :

No you havent missed the flight report of the Ares Stalker .61 - Still havent had it.

Yes its been probably 12 months - just had other projects come up, like going to USA - I still have a 1951 Nobler with Veco 29 unflown... and 2 Stunters unflown..

Right now Im in the middle of my 2012 Open model build, which is a prelude for the 2013 US nats model...

Possibly If I get time I will test the Ares- but there is really no call for it in a contest at this stage.
 
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2011, 02:32:13 PM »
Big Bear

I got a few extra prayers just laying around doing nothing, and I been wondering what to do with them.  Now I know.  I'll put your name on em.  :)

Thanks, Dan!  I really appreciate the prayers.

Bill
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Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2011, 02:36:35 PM »
Bill Little :

No you havent missed the flight report of the Ares Stalker .61 - Still havent had it.

Yes its been probably 12 months - just had other projects come up, like going to USA - I still have a 1951 Nobler with Veco 29 unflown... and 2 Stunters unflown..

Right now Im in the middle of my 2012 Open model build, which is a prelude for the 2013 US nats model...

Possibly If I get time I will test the Ares- but there is really no call for it in a contest at this stage.
 

Hi PJ,

The Ares holds  a warm spot in my heart so I was really keen on hearing how the Top Fuel Dragster disguised as an Ares flies! LL~  From your success with a Nobler and similar set up, I am figuring it will be awesome.

Bill
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Updating a plane to perform better in the modern era!
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2011, 04:44:07 PM »
Bill - Who knows might be great - might not be..

I'l have to get off my rear end and get it test flown. Just got a few other projects taking top spot.
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

...
 I Yearn for a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.


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