Gordon,

I expect you'll get more, and better, ideas than I'm offering, but...

You'll do better corners, without messing up the rest of the figure, by sneaking up on it with plenty of practice.

"BANGING" a corner just doesn't get it... the model MUST slow down noticeably, and probably do some other obvious wrong moves. Practice flying through a corner, even if it is larger than you'd like. Get the feel of feeding in, then off, control input. As you master that, you'll refine your 'feel' for flying it through, and can work on making it tighter.

Flying it through keeps up a lot of the speed you had before you start the turn, so there's a better exit speed, a smoother look to the entry, turn and exit, than with banging it into a brick wall and having it stagger out gasping for breath and airspeed, somewhere in the vicinity of the track you hoped to get. Flying it through includes flying it to the correct exit track, and that's part of where practice can take you, too.

Thanks Lou, Thanks Phil, I agree I need way more flight time. What sparked my question was, the other day at woodland, while most decent flyers were tearing up the sky in Clovis I decided to fly the shark 45 that has been hanging from the ceiling for a while. I have on and off, been beating on an ARF pathfinder (ST51power) that can turn very sharp but is not smooth and consistant in round easy manuvers. The shark had good power and feel every where. Nice smooth rounds are much easier but I almost put it in the ground the first time I tried an aggressive pull out on a normal wing over. Scared the BeJesus out of me! I was just thinking that maybe the shark must need a different flying style(smoother) than the Pathfinder (Berzerker) due to design differences. I wonder if the shark might respond to more tail weight and the pathfinder more nose weight to get them more the same on flight characteristics. Sorry for the ramble, must be another bout of diarrhoea of the brain.

Good idea...Hummm?
Thanks Howard, that reminds me...winter is comin' so I also betta seal the hinges in both my front, back and garage doors.

Nice seeing you again at Da' Narrows with that purty yaller n orange quick turnin' flyin machine.

I haven't fiddled with my airplane since the Clovis contest.  I incorporated a couple of Mr. Walker's suggestions before I went to Clovis: to wit, moving the CG aft and loosening up the controls.  He also suggested giving it more elevator movement relative to the flaps, which I haven't tried yet. 

But back to Gordon's Shark.  The Shark is a good airplane and is still competitive.  Dave Sabon recently whupped me with one.  Something's wrong.  I can't tell what the problem is from here, and probably not even by flying it.  I'd ask Brett Buck.  He lives nearby and can tell you when your tip weight is one gram off just by watching your plane fly (I've seen him do it!).  So I'm not much help.  Before you ask Brett, though, seal your hinges if you haven't yet.  That might fix the problem you are having, and it's a prerequisite before doing any trimming.

You are exactly correct, according to Lew (who ought to know . . .). The Shark 45 must be flown through maneuvers, and cannot (or, at least, should not) be "hammered". Oddly enough, Lew's Ruffy can be practically manhandled and still produce excellent corners!

Check out Lew McFarland's 68 nats and world cup 1/4 oversized Shark 45...that according to Lew and Reeves...really improved the hard corners (note on the outboard wing where Lew had to cut and re-attach the outboard wing tip so to fit the cargo hold in the DC-8
My first Shark 45 belonged to Tim Dunlop of Portland...and although a tad heavy...my second White Shark...I INCREASED THE STAB AND ELEVATOR an inch and also increase the throw of the elevator. That old White Shark corners were quite outstanding...except that model seem to hunt a tad in level flight...(later found to be a slight alignment problem
Gads...those old Shark 45's were ADDICTING!!!
Never nuff Sharks....

On the Elevator and stab you said and increase of and inch, (span or chord, elevator or stab?) and travel helped?

Wow..Kinda SOBERING to see that was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 1966
42YEARS AGO...
However all I did was to take Lew's stab was to take a small piece of thick mylar stock...drill a small hole 1/2 inch away from the edge.  Then all I did was insert the tip of pencil...and then proceeded to slide it around the outline of Lew's original stab outline? 

That alone would perhaps would have been all that was necessary...since I was VERY CONCERNED ABOUT ADDING TO THE "BAR-BELL EFFECT" that could happen soooooooo easily many of the designs of that period.
Tim Dunlop, Ben Madsen, Joe Dill...all AVID LEW McFARLAND DECIPALS' were always ADVOCATING that ANYONE, ESPECIALLY ON THE SHARK DESIGN..with all THAT HUGE BODY SIDE AREA, located that far behind the CG....SHOULD MAKE EVERY KNOW EFFORT TO KEEP THE WEIGHT AS LOW AS POSSIBLE!
Most turning and cornering problems that occurred on the Shark (n' many other designs) could be eliminated if one STOPPED ADDING WEIGHT TO THE NOSE of a design that could lend it self to being tail heavy with all that long and beautifully sculpted aft side area...this alone if not care attention and thought given to building as light as possible . DAAAAA!!!   THE FIRST BASIC RULE CLPA101 SCHOOL OF STUNT DESIGN?
Following there advice...(and since I had a very light weight K&B 45 and a very light weight tank...I REALLY TOOK EVERY MEASURE to keep that weight on the aft body section of the Shark 45 to a bare minimum.

Thinking back...IF I had taken as much time in keeping the stab n' elevators in PERFECT ALIGNMENT as I did in keeping the weight down.
I know now that I didn't need to have more ELEVATOR THROW in that new slightly oversized stab and elevator. (The added elevator throw...plus the slight misalignment of the stab...gave me more trouble.that I needed. I did manage to correct the alignment with a little minor surgery.
However the fate of that model was SEIZED by my lack of ability to JUDGE DISTANCE.
See the aftermat crash photos of flying into crowd contro barriers on a circle that was laid out with 60ft lines in mind instead of my 73 foot lines
Again...I didn't follow the CARDINAL RULE of CLPA and forgot that a flyer should never make more than one correctional change at a time....when working out trim changes.
AFTER ALL THESE YEARS...ONE MAJOR REGRET STAND OUT!!!

I HAVE NEVER BUILT A STUNT MODEL THAT WAS TOO LIGHT IN WEIGHT!!!

Hey Shultzie. Doooo you rememba tha sharp corners Gene Matheney used to do?

I AGREE 100 %
This Grey GENIE-BIRD of Gene's was truly the fastest turning stunt model that I have ever test flown.
I was SHOCKED the first time I flew it...
I seem to remembeR that at first,  that it felt as if the model needed more hand movent to start a turn....that is....
until I became used to the feel and also until I was brave enough to POP the handle like Gene had instructed me.

NO ONE IN THOSE DAYS...BUILT MODELS AS LIGHT WEIGHT AS GENE MATHENEY!!!

 (THIS MODEL ON THE SCALES WAS ONLY 37 OUNCES!!!) but unlike most light weight models...
Gene advocated those beautiful elipse or rounded wing tips for smooth level flight in windy conditions and always insisted on flaps that NEVER RAN FULL SPAN...AND ALWAYS USED BALANCED ELEVATORS to give his models even more turning HP with less load on the wrist and control handle.
However remember the movement throw on at model seemed at least over 45 degrees, at least? Much greater than most of our models in the early 60 etc.

Leo, we all remember just how PICKY PICKY PICKY..our late friend Tim Dunlop of Portland was..when it came to choices of models...but after Tim flew Gene's model...HE JUST HAD TO BUILD ONE HIMSELF.
Tim built a beautiful "RED GENIE BIRD" for the 68 Olatha Nats..and both of us were blown away and just how BLINDING THE CORNERS were with Tim's New model.

Yes, that model ruled the corners--------------------------I feel a tear coming on!!!

Sadly we lost that model...on the  road trip to the 68 Nationals at Olatha.

Unfortunately I was driving his new wide track GRAND PRIX PONTE'ACKKK-ITITY AKKK DON'T TALK BACK...across western Kansas at about a steady 95mph.

THEN LIKE OUT OF NO WHERE..EXCEPT MAYBE FROM THE PITS OF HELL...CAME THIS  HUGE PIE TRUCK that was traveling west at about the SAME 95 MPH that we were going. Suddenly it  passed by us at a closing rate of almost 200 mph.... with HORRIFIC RESULTS.

I CAN STILL HEAR THAT LOUD RIPPING "KA-BAM!" and  STILL SEE THAT U-HAUL car top carrier in in the  rear view mirror...as it flew away in a slow barrell roll and exploded into a million pieces when it hit the ground. (About a 100 yards off into a farmers wheat field.

Luckily Tim and I had stored 3 other stunt models...in that Pontiac's huge oversized trunk. but the new GENIE BIRD was stored in the car top carrier. YES!!!
YES! THE GENIE BIRD "BIT THE BIG ONE" AND WAS SHATTERED INTO CONFETTI SIZED PIECES...
AMAZING HOWEVER...Tims precious dozen HARD BOILED BREAKFAST EGGS..were still undamaged and withstood that impact without even a crack.
It took us about an hour to walk all over and around that field,  picking up our "meagers "  U NAME IT......clothing, shoes, underpants, socks, toothbrushes...(a six pack of my precious Rainier Beer that now was reduced to a small one bottle.)

As you know Leo, Tim was a  total tea totaler' but that day....Tim, Vance and I sat there in that golden Kansas wheat field...carefully passing, sharing and crying in that one little bottle of beloved Rainier...while at the same time  eating a few of his precious undamaged boiled eggs that his beloved wife Audrey had boiled for our trip. We drove into the next small town and went to the Bus Depoe and made arrangements with one of the employees there to go out and pick up the U haul top carriers pieces and deliver the pieces that had already closed for the day.
heres for the memories...

I remember Tim...fretting about his Genie-Bird "flying too fast" and he was a tad upset when I tweaked his needle valve IN a couple of notches on a test flight the first night we stopped in Red Bluff Mont.
The altitude was considerably highter than we were used to flying in...and he was trying to fly that  new light weight at a slowwwwwwwwwwwwwww putt-putt-putt, even at a weight under 40 ounces in that high altitude country...he was having trouble with the vertical 8 and overheads.
I took the next flight...tweaked in the needle setting even more...and that beautiful little Genie Bird flew like a DREAM MACHINE!!!!
After that flight....Tim took one test flight with the new needle setting and although he was a bit concerned about flying soooooo fast, HE DECIDED TO KEEP THAT SETTING----------

(Sadly....that was the last flight either Tim and I had with that amazing Gene Matheney flyin machine that SMACKED THE TIGHTEST CORNERS IN THE R&R KINDUMB'COME.)
Gene, Tim, Mel Winters, Jim Parsons, Tiny Wilson, Charley Huff...the list of great modelers and flyers...CROSSED OVER, ALL TOO SOON.
TBTG for our memories, photos and old stories that keep getting betta' and better and Leo and the rest of us ol' stunt grunts get closer n' closer to the tunnel of light ourselves...n'allthat jazz.