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Author Topic: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1  (Read 1510 times)

Offline Robert-Jan

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Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« on: May 18, 2011, 08:12:19 AM »
I think we al have a plane we like.
One of mine is the Fokker G1.
On regular bases I think of building one.
But.
Here is the picture of the original:


And since I have not much experience in designing I changed the drawing to cardinal numbers:


The major change are the booms they are muuuch further from each other.
And the nose is muuuch longer.

How much can I decrease the elevator with?
If I make it longer so I maintain the same surface is that ok?

I am planning to fly it electric. So I can put in the battery in the central section as far forward as possible.
Is it possible to shorten the nose or does it not fly stable level any more?

Greetings Robert-Jan

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2011, 08:34:29 PM »
Id make it as per your second drawing , but double the OUTER span !

What size are you looking at ? Tailplanes about right, better too much than too little.
speaking of twos , look at the ' Two Bits , push / pull twin boom for the ball park .

My P-38 , two OS 35S , is 78 span , 21 in between booms ,but its 8 1/2 : 1 A.R.

Other profile twins are 14 in engines , 48 wing , plus tips .

Youre going full fuse ? not profile ?
Gotta watch the THRUSTLINES on profiles are same distance from fuse , not nacelles .

Gotta nice colour shot of your G-1 Full Size .
Huges Twin was similar layout , two spans drawn .   H^^

Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2011, 09:00:41 PM »
Looks like your going to be a tad nose heavy with the nacelles that long. Might want to shorten those up a little.
-Clint-

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Finding new and innovated ways to screw up the pattern since 1993

Online John Miller

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2011, 09:20:00 PM »
Robert, it's an interesting design you've chosen. Design elements in a semi-scale are almost always compromises. I would not move the engines, or, in the case of electrics, motors, so far apart. Several reasons come to mind, but the main one would be to try to keep the individual thrust lines closer to center so the asymmetrical thrust in an engine out situation  is minimised.

I also would try to keep the props closer to a scale location, by not making the nacelles so long. You only need enough legnth to fit a proper sized tank for the engine. Less if you go electric, and mount the battery as far forward as you can in the center fuselage.

The ideal tail moment usually falls in the range of about 1.4 times the wing chord, including the flap chord in that measurement. For example, with a wing with a chord of 10" and a flap chord of 2.5" at the MAC, a good distance, flap hingline to elevator hingeline, of 17.5" might prove to be right. A little adjustment either way can be considered, as it's really a "rule of thumb."

Trying to realistically estimate the final flying weight, will give you an idea of the wing area needed for competitive performance. 12 to 14sq. inches per ounce of weight is a decent wing loading to strive towards.

Once the wing area, and percentage of flap area is decided on, you can figure the size of your stab and elevator. 25% of the wing area, is another good number to consider, but as before, it's all compromises.

Last thing you should really consider is the TLAR (That looks about right) method of design. It's usually correct. H^^
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2011, 09:23:00 PM »
Semi-scale is hard.  Don't try to retain the original dimensions -- go for the same look.  Remember that the color scheme has a lot to do with how things look.

I think with the battery all the way up in the nose you can get away with much shorter nacelles.

I'm not sure what you can do with the horizontal tail -- you can increase the chord of the horizontal surfaces to some extent.  I'm not sure how important a high aspect ratio is on the tail surfaces -- I suspect it has some to do with aerodynamics, and some to do with plain ol' looks.  The tail booms will act, to some extent, as tip plates on the horizontal stab, so aerodynamically you'll get more aspect ratio than you 'really have'.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2011, 10:49:55 PM »
Id make it as per your second drawing , but double the OUTER span


But the page ain't big enough for that Mat!

Perhaps the span could continue on the back of the sheet?
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Offline Robert-Jan

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2011, 11:47:34 PM »
Thanks for the respond.

I made a paper model. It does not look well.
It looks like the voyager.
The booms are too wide and the props to far forward.
I will put the booms more close to each other and put the rest of the elevator outside the booms.
And I will put the motors more back. (after I did some maths.)

-The drawing I made has Cardinal numbers.
-It will have electric motors.
-It will be a .46 ship size.

Greetings Robert-Jan

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2011, 01:03:56 AM »
E Gad. Depends if its a semi scale ' sport ' model , of full blown F2B .

Have you had a look at Mr Hunts Twin in the Electrical section .

My P-38 is a overweight somewhat irregular design. But its still
fine on the outer with the motors 10 1/2 from the fuselage Centre Line.
And if ones daring , its possible to do loops etc on the outer.
Maybe its the weight / inirtia holds it out there.

Inirtia is definately pressent, so requires forethought.Poss to get a lot lighter.

( see Bob Hunts 25 Oz. Airframe ! )

Other than that , the lines of yours are similar in plan ,
Just someones chopped the outer halves of the wings off . ! ~^ %^@

Have a good glare at Huges recosanance Twin ( Young howard huges)
 The things similar to yours ( as is a P-61 )
One versions got l o n g e r wings though .

Theres pictures of a profile one on this forum back a year or two .

The good thing about twins is you can re write the rules . . . . :## H^^

Offline phil c

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 01:19:58 PM »
Thanks for the respond.

I made a paper model. It does not look well.
It looks like the voyager.
The booms are too wide and the props to far forward.
I will put the booms more close to each other and put the rest of the elevator outside the booms.
And I will put the motors more back. (after I did some maths.)

-The drawing I made has Cardinal numbers.
-It will have electric motors.
-It will be a .46 ship size.

Greetings Robert-Jan
46 engine size means you will be using two 25's,  significantly heavier than a stunt 46.  Probably no need to extend the nacelles for balance, just enough to fit 4 oz. tanks.

The best, tried and true way to get a realistic looking semi-scale is to scale the wing at 1.3-1.5 whatevers and the fuselage at 1.  Use the scale stab shape and scale it up to at least 20% of the wing area.  This is one design where you don't have to worry about dihedral.

If at all possible, try to put in retracts.  This design has a very simple nacelle/gear layout, so it should be possible to put in retracts with only a 3-4 oz weight penalty.  WW-II planes just didn't fly much aerobatics with the feet hanging out!
phil Cartier

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2011, 12:25:16 AM »
It could be worse: you could have a hankering to build one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_%26_Voss_BV_141.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Robert-Jan

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2011, 07:41:16 AM »
Version number 2
I am quit happy with the looks.



In the mean time I have changed my plan.
I have some parts left of a not so good landing with my previous ARF cardinal.
(suddenly the up line was missing).

I will make a full fuse with 2 engines from the parts that are left.
In this way I can see what engines I need and what the moments must be.

My current Cardinal has a 400 gram !!! battery.
The CG is 2’’ after the leading edge (according to the building instructions this must be 3”).

I would like to fly with only one 4S battery. But the motors for this size are all 3S.
So I will start with 2 AXI 2826/10 Bit overpowered.  ;D ;D
But from there I can see what is really necessary.

Greetings Robert-Jan

Offline Ward Van Duzer

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Re: Semi scale guestion Fokker G1
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2011, 01:36:33 PM »
There are plenty of successful twin boomers around. Pick one or two and use them for the numbers. Alter your design around winners! As Hunt once said to me when designing a P-40 "Do you want a semi-scale stunt ship, or a semi-stunt scale ship?".

Think about that...

Good luck! and enjoy!

W.
I hate spelling errors, you mess up 2 letters and you are urined!

Don't hesitate to ask dumb questions.
They are easier to handle than dumb mistakes!  Ward-O AMA 6022


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