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Author Topic: Practice model  (Read 2187 times)

Offline Arch Adamisin

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Practice model
« on: September 02, 2009, 09:09:19 AM »
Hi,
I'm just sorting out a model design to use for practice to try to see if I'm wasting my time trying to compete in contests again. That being said, It will be a profile model to speed up the building process and since I'd like to enter it in some contests, I'd ,like to be sure it's a legal profile model.
As I understand it. the fuse should be no thicker than 3/4" at the wing training edge. The front of the model can be reinforced on one side for stiffness.
Now my questions. Are the control horns and pushrods required to be external? Also, can the fuse cross section be elliptically shaped or must it be slab sided with rounded corners, top and bottom?
I haven't been able to find this information on line, my computer skills aren't the greatest, so any help will be appreciated.
It's just been too long since I've flown seriously and this beater model should help keep the nice model, nice.
Thanks for the help,

     Arch

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 12:24:43 PM »
Archie,

I wouldn't make it too oval shaped near the stab, profiles are notorious for not keeping stiff in squares and triangles.
I hope this helps some..... I have been off line for about two weeks with technical difficulties.

Jim Pollock

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2009, 01:12:18 PM »
Archie,
Most of the Profile rules are local, its not really driven by AMA rules per se'. I think in most cases, the 3/4" trailing edge thickness, and a doubler, along with a requirement for the engine ( motor?) to be exposed from the mount lugs to the head pretty much sum up the extent of it excepting some areas that still have a displacement limit, but that is only for "profile" class competition. when it comes to PA whatever is whatever,,,,,,, n~
as for the elliptical cross section, as long as the stab is at the thick part its probably as good or better,,
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Alan Hahn

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2009, 02:52:38 PM »
Here is the AMA CL General rules on profiles. I also include a graphic of the fuse width. Notice how CL PA isn't included in the table at all, so to first order, anything goes!. However as Mark points out , all politics,  umm I mean profile rules are local, so if you want to particularly fly in P40-like profile events (a non-rulebook event), you might want to check around you. I think a relatively safe version of a P40 "legal" profile is to keep the engine under a 40, and width on the order of 3/4", except at the nose where AFAIK, a doubler or even tripler is routinely allowed.

Also I don't think profile is even defined in the current PA rules section.

so from CLG-6 page of CL-general rulebook (2009-10)

 10. Profile Definition.  The fuselage of a profile
model resembles that of a conventional airplane
in the side (profile) view and appears as a thin
flat sheet in the plan (top) view.  When a
conventional, single cylinder, internal
combustion engine is used, the engine shall be
completely exposed from the centerline of the
crankshaft to the top of the cylinder head when
viewed perpendicular to both the crankshaft
centerline and the cylinder centerline.  In the
case of internal combustion engine with multiple
cylinders, the preceding rule shall apply to all
cylinders with allowances made by the officials
for appropriate mounting of the engine.  No
fairing may be added to the engine which
violates the ―completely exposed‖ requirement
of the previous sentences, and the engine
cylinder shall not be contoured to present a
streamlined cross section to the airflow.  
Additional reinforcements such as plywood nose
doublers and cheek cowls or fairings are
permitted within the width limits defined in the
accompanying table.  Such additional fuselage
reinforcements may extend from the prop drive
washer to a point 25 percent of the wing root
chord back of the wing leading edge at the root
and may be faired in.  Cheek cowls used in
Racing events may be of unlimited width, but
may be used only on the side opposite the engine
and only on models with side-mounted engines.
In the case of inverted or upright engine
installation, engine mounts may protrude from
the fuselage sides beyond the width limitations
of the table.  They may extend no further aft than
25 percent of the wing root chord back of the
leading edge at the root.  Any such protruding
engine mounts shall be of constant cross
sectional shape and dimensions, without
tapering.  The rear portion of those mounts shall
terminate in an angle of at least 45 degrees to the
longitudinal axis of the fuselage unless they
terminate within the wing structure.  Nacelles, as
used on multi-engine models are subject to the
requirements of this definition.  






Offline afml

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2009, 03:34:39 PM »
Archie,

Try the ORIGINAL Top Flite "Tutor". One of the earlier posts even had a few "improvements" to the kit/plans.

Might just surprise you! y1

It really depends on the size of airplane you are now flying. Best to try & match it's size, controls and performance.

Too many to choose from fer sure!!! LL~

"Tight Lines!"

Wes
Wes Eakin

Offline John Miller

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 04:12:50 PM »
Arch, I realise that I'm a bit prejudiced, but may I suggest a long look at Brodaks version of Gordan Delany's Pathfinder. Possibly one of the best flying profiles available today.
Getting a line on life. AMA 1601

Offline Kim Mortimore

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 07:40:58 PM »
Arch,

I don't know what the Profile event situation is like in your area, but I suspect you are more likely to start out competing in Intermediate (probably) skill category PA, which is held at all regular (not specialty) stunt contests, and in which there are absolutely no design requirements of any kind (just the usual safety regs).  

If your region is big on Profile and includes it frequently in the contest line-up, check with people in your area to get the local rules, because as Alan and Mark mentioned, there is a lot of regional variation (including max engine size) in this unofficial event.  In general, the intent of Profile is to provide a casual, nonintense event where nitpicking of rules and duels to the death occur only very infrequently.   LL~ ~^

I was in LA recently for a contest, and noticed that a Fancher Imitation was competing in Profile.  If you're not familiar with it, the Imitation fuselage is profile from about the wing high-point back, and the nose is a built-up oval arrangement with the engine mounted inverted on an RC mount--so it's a profile only by a loose definition.  

Depending on your idea of a "beater", if you want to get into the air really quickly, you might want to throw together a Sig Skyray, basically a flapless modified slow combat plane, which has scored as high as 2nd in Advanced PA at our state championships against a field of 15 or so VERY tough competitors, many flying piped all-out stunters.  Then if you like what you see, you might want to move on to a more serious plane like the Pathfinder.  

My 2 cents' worth.

Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA    
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2009, 07:45:27 PM »
Arch,

Aside from the Pathfinder.. who knows?

You are a very good flyer, and I think that you will very rapidly tire of the profile and want a better airplane. You don't need training wheels. Believe me it comes back fast. Then you need something help you get fine tuned..

Why don't you build something with a simple fuselage, uncowled?

The Adamisins are known for their airplanes, I am sure that you can come up with a new one for the purpose.

P.S. Welcome back!
AMA 7544

Offline Arch Adamisin

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2009, 09:52:49 PM »
I looks like the model I'm going to build as a profile is a design published by my son Archie in 1991 in Flying Models. His First Gemini. It's a clean and simple design that flies amazing well. I might simplify the landing gear by mounting it on the fuse instead of in the wing. Just to make it an easier build.
Is it a requirement that the control horns and pushrods are mounted externally, or can I build the profile outline around them? The linkage that we have developed over the many years of building the V'Tailed models requires at least 5/8" wide opening for the proper clearance.  Can I use some small blisters to cover that linkage to help keep that area clean If I run the elevator pushrod down the center of the fuse.
While I'm trying to remember how to fly, would someone care to share a design for one of those hard point control handles. A sketch with a few dimensions should get me started. We've never flown with this type of handle so why not try it now, while we're doing some experimenting. Any  help would be appreciated. An unbiased, hard point handle might be something good to wake up these old brain cell. Hell, I'm still flying with a Darwin handle. The same one I was gived in 1963 by a guy that too many in his box.
I want thi model to not only reawaken my old brain but to also have a model that can be flown at the many profile events in the area.
I have a beautiful fully molded hollow molded composite model waiting for me when I'm ready. Just thought it best to walk before running.
Thanks for the ideas, I'll post progress shots in a couple of weeks if anyony is interested.
Can the control horns and pushrods be built internally. That would certainly make it a much cleaner installation. We built a lot of profile like that during the 60"s, it just seemed natural

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 09:32:53 AM »
Archie,
I dont know of any restrictions on mounting controls internally. I have seen several done that way so why not? It does lend a bit more fidget work to what is intended to be a simple model, but hey your a modeler,, I say have at it.
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline John Miller

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2009, 02:54:35 PM »
I have to agree with Mark on this one. I see no reason you cannot have the controls routed inside the profile fuse. I'm so looking forward to seeing the results of your building effort, not to mention sharing a cicle with you at a future contest.

As for the hard point handles. I've converted entirely over to them. My handle of choice is a Ted handle. I get them from Carl Shoup in Colorado. I don't have his contact info readily available, but the price is low enough that buying one would not break the bank. Then you can look it over, improve, if possible, and build as many of your customised handles as you desire.

Brodak sells a very nice slightly heavier, but built out of metal version you may want to look at as well.
Getting a line on life. AMA 1601

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2009, 06:47:05 PM »
Arch,
There is no reason that you couldn't have the controls inside the fuselage.

John D'Ottavio had internal controls in the "Topper" (Falcon Jr.) that he published. Ed Elasick won the 1961 Air Youths with it. Certainly that is a great precedence, and I doubt if that was the first time that it was done.

Add the blisters for the special elevator horn. I think that more people will admire the airplane, than be nitpicking it.

It will be great to see you flying again.
AMA 7544

Offline Arch Adamisin

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2009, 12:06:54 AM »
Tom, Mark, John,
Thanks for your encouragement. I just want to fly again. and with this practice model maybe I can remember enough so as not to embarrass myself too badly. Really, the only thing inportant is to fly again and have fun. I personally quit competeing to help coach my brothers and then later on to teach and coach my sons. After all of that and the hundreds of contests that I've worked throughout the years, I've decided that if I'm going to any more contests, it's going to be to fly. I'm tired of all the work and just want to enjoy the hobby again. I thought it would be a hoot, building a model designed by my elsest son. He's building one of my designs to fly in classic. It's going to be a fun off season, completeing the composite model so that all the family boys can fly at the Nats at least one more time and also build some of our most favorite ever designs to compete in classic and Nostalgia 30.
Thanks again for your encouragement, Arch

Offline Roger Vizioli

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2009, 08:08:36 AM »
.......................While I'm trying to remember how to fly, would someone care to share a design for one of those hard point control handles. A sketch with a few dimensions should get me started. We've never flown with this type of handle so why not try it now, while we're doing some experimenting. Any  help would be appreciated. An unbiased, hard point handle might be something good to wake up these old brain cell. .............

Sent info., see your e-mail.
Roger V.
Roger Vizioli
AMA L-2408
Florida/Space Coast

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2009, 01:25:03 PM »
Why not shoot an e-mail or private message to Carl Shoupe.  He makes the Fancher handle kits and well worth the price.  If you order a bunch of them he might even make a deal.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
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Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2009, 02:49:34 PM »
Wow,

A possibility of the entire Adamisin clan all at once at the Nats! THAT will be a HAPPENING!

You will have to include Todd and Marie also.

I sure hope it happens. Big Art will be beaming, and Betty will be smiling from above.
AMA 7544

Offline Arch Adamisin

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2009, 11:03:36 PM »
The attempted effort is to have us all, as many of the family as we can to have a family gathering at one of the places that has meant so much to the family for the last 50 years. I know Dad would really enjoy it and if we can all build new versions of our old designs, it might take two trailers to get all the models there. And like you said Tom, Mom would also be happy to see it.

     Arch
Ami and Todd will definately be included. Todd was an unofficial part of the family a long time before they made it official. Besides getting Todd, we also got Jim and Lila.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2009, 01:42:15 AM »
Regarding the internal controls...I'd suggest finding out what the local rules are. Whoever runs the contests that you'll be going to would be able to provide a copy. It's usually a club or regional association of clubs that writes the rules. That's to be absolutely certain you build a legal Profile for your area.

The Pacific NW started out with Profile 40 or "P.40", but too many newbies wanted to know what P-40 Warhawk kit was the best one to use. The reason for that was because many wrote it as "P-40", instead of "P.40". A few of us started a campaign to remove the engine size limits, simply making them what is allowed for PA (.91's!), and calling it "Profile Stunt". We haven't seen much change. A lot of folks are using .46LA's, and there have been a few ST G.21 .46's and G.51's, but not many. There was some bitching and screaming, but the rule change hasn't destroyed the event, and it's probably stronger than ever. There have been a few tuned pipe models show up, and a few more being built, but so far, none that weren't legal under the old rules. Our definition of profile is per the AMA rulebook as posted above...probably pretty normal practise.  If you'd like to see our rules, click here:
http://flyinglines.org/rules.profilestunt.html 

I met "Big Art" and "Little Dave" at VSC...y'all need to go next year!  y1 Steve
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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Practice model
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2009, 12:15:51 PM »
Hey Arch!
Super!!  I'm glad you're going to start flying again!!  Hey, if an old **** like me can do it, you surely can!  That's better than just hanger flying in the pits any day.  as far as the whole clan getting together at a contest - don't leave out the possibil;ity of making that the FCM next August!  We would be honored.
Blessings,
Will
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com


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