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Author Topic: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?  (Read 2497 times)

Offline PJ Rowland

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Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« on: March 06, 2011, 05:42:20 PM »
So i've been thinking about this for a while now - Due to my background in graphic design and 3d Shape modelling I have some theoretical issues with Geodetic wing construction.

Id love someone to tell me Im wrong - and perhaps I am, or perhaps this just hasn't been thought of...

With Geodetic wing construction the wing ribs are angled in and out - Like pidgeon toed.

When designing these ribs - has the angled curve been taken into consideration that it will change not only the camber of the airfoil but the overall length and dimensions ( height exculded ) ?

If you take a standard shape rib - and angle in to any degree - you will change the shape of the airfoil from the front on perspective.

I must confess - I have not read into the design details of geodetic wing construction in any length so I may be barking up the wrong tree - so I would like to be informed to the later if possible.


However - if you build a wing and make your normal ribs angled at any degree 10 - 45 ' you will alter the design charactistics, my question is - If you want to build a set of ribs ( Say cardinal or Impact ) how would you design the rib - take into consideration the scale perspective effect of it being angled, and compensate for that so the overall shape is the same as it would be in regular front on view?

We have some sophisticated 3d tooling at work and the only way I can think to reverse calculate it is to build a rib in 3d, build your standard rib in 3d, offset one - and get the computer to take a snapshot of that rib from front on and match it to the standard no- angled rib.. How that would work is beyond my skill..

Any takers??  ???


Its very simple - to exagerate my theory - take a rib.. build a wing with it to 90 square to the spare - a standard rib..

Now build another wing - with all the ribs offset to 45 deg to the spar - the camber and length now have both changed dramatically...


If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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Offline John Miller

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Re: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 06:52:46 PM »
PJ, what you surmise is one way to do this. you can make a 3D representation of the wing, as a solid. You can then slice it at angles in a manner similar to Bob Hunts lost foam jig. rotate the sliced representations to view them perpendicuilar.

Or,

There are airfoil programs that will loft the ribs in several truss layouts.

I personally use Compufoil Pro, and it will do that and more, once I used the program enough to do it. The ribs produced are true and fit perfectly. H^^
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Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2011, 07:00:04 PM »
Ok so that answers my question..

There are ready avalible computer programs that will asses, orientate and re-draw said airfoil to the desired angle.

Thankyou.
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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Offline EddyR

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Re: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2011, 07:26:21 AM »
PJ  I have built many I/Beam wings both ways and there is no difference in the flying from one model to the other. I/Beams do not have a constant airfoil like a sheeted wing as the covering pulls down some between the ribs. I can't see how geodetic would have any effect on a D/Tube wing. Lost foam is more correct if you think it is that important.
Ed
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2011, 08:13:27 AM »
I'm not sure what effect you are worried about.  I calculated my ribs with Excel.  I made the slanty ones  2 * rib thickness * sin (rib angle) longer to compensate for material thickness.  They sand down to the contour of the wing with a couple of swipes of the sanding block.  The spar slots were done similarly.  The outer front and back edges of the slot were the spar chord / cos (rib angle) apart.  I made a 1/4"-thick sanding block and sanded the inside edges until the front and back of the spar slots were parallel to the spar.  These ribs would be easier to cut if the laser could cut at an angle.  If you use the Lost Foam method or 3D CAD to generate rib shapes, you'd still have to compensate for spar slots and you'd need to make the ribs an RCH long to compensate for rib thickness.  Another way is to use thick glue.   
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Offline phil c

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Re: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2011, 08:59:55 AM »
.....With Geodetic wing construction the wing ribs are angled in and out - Like pidgeon toed.

When designing these ribs - has the angled curve been taken into consideration that it will change not only the camber of the airfoil but the overall length and dimensions ( height exculded ) ?

If you take a standard shape rib - and angle in to any degree - you will change the shape of the airfoil from the front on perspective.....


PJ, it is very time consuming and pretty tricky to loft the correct sections for a geodetic wing manually.  That is what computer programs, lost-foam construction are for, and why the Swallow, posted in the other thread, sanded the whole wing out of an eggcrate of balsa rectangles.  The sanding block method is a very low tech way to get a very high tech result.

As far as overall shape of the wing, any dips and ridges caused by the rib angles is pretty much irrelevant.  The low speed airfoil studies started by Prof. Mike Selig at the University of Illinois Urbana/Champaign(UCIC) showed that small variations in shape only affected the very peak performance of airfoils.  So if you are building a high performance sail plane, or an electric powered plane expected to fly for days off of solar cells there is a measurable effect.  Stunt planes never get into that flight regime, and it is nearly impossible to get the required accuracy of the airfoil using the construction techniques we use.  Think about trying to build a stunt wing with the whole outer surface within .002 inches of the designed shape.  Can't be done with balsa wood, silkspan, and dope.

An I-beam wing might actually be better than a D-tube in this respect.  It has only two spanwise edges in the airfoil.  Smooth and sleek.  Somewhere on the web(I've lost the bookmarks) there is a picture showing what happens to the airflow over a D-tube wing with capstrips- if the end of the D is right near the highpoint of the wing the edge there and the sag in the covering between the ribs can cause significant changes in the airflow with increased drag and not good changes in the lift and drag.  The location of an edge or tubulator like the back edge of the D can disrupt the airflow at least moderately, sometimes good and sometimes bad.  That is why free flighters use turbulator strips on their wings and why laminar wings have to be built with extremely smooth leading edges.  An I-beam wing has one turbulator way up front at the back of the leading edge, which is in the area where tubulators usually do the most good.  The rest of the airfoil is a perfectly smooth curve so the whole setup is pretty much ideal from a lift/drag perspective.
phil Cartier

Offline EddyR

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Re: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2011, 10:04:12 AM »
PJ     I thought you might like to see this plane I built for the 1990 Nats. I did like Howard  and sanded the ribs so all were the same. Now this is a extreme example off Geo Ribs it flew exactly like the straight rib version I modeled it from. It is a updated Cobra with modern movements. I always wondered what the air was doing with all those angles. I think they fly better but maybe that is because the wing and flaps are so stiff.
Ed
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2011, 02:34:52 PM »
Wow.
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2011, 02:46:15 PM »
PJ     I thought you might like to see this plane I built for the 1990 Nats. I did like Howard  and sanded the ribs so all were the same. Now this is a extreme example off Geo Ribs it flew exactly like the straight rib version I modeled it from. It is a updated Cobra with modern movements. I always wondered what the air was doing with all those angles. I think they fly better but maybe that is because the wing and flaps are so stiff.
Ed

That fish has a lot of bones Ed!

But what makes my eyes water is the built up flaps with upper and lower ribs - bit of an overkill perhaps mate?
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Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2011, 08:04:55 AM »
Perhaps I was reading into it more than what I thought .

I did say at the start of the thread :

" Id love someone to tell me Im wrong - and perhaps I am "

It was a mental excersise - Thanks HOward :)
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

...
 I Yearn for a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Geodetic Wings - Is there a problem ?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2011, 11:38:02 PM »
PJ     I thought you might like to see this plane I built for the 1990 Nats. I did like Howard  and sanded the ribs so all were the same. Now this is a extreme example off Geo Ribs it flew exactly like the straight rib version I modeled it from. It is a updated Cobra with modern movements. I always wondered what the air was doing with all those angles. I think they fly better but maybe that is because the wing and flaps are so stiff.
Ed
I think they fly better because they just look so good!! #^

Keith R
Keith R


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