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Author Topic: Flap/elevator taper  (Read 1404 times)

Offline James Mills

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Flap/elevator taper
« on: January 24, 2010, 05:41:06 PM »
What is the reasoning behind tapering the flap and elevator to 1/8" over say 3/16" or 1/4"?  Is this a case of "looks about right" and so it works?

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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2010, 06:27:21 PM »
Looks better, so more AP's. Saves weight, flies betta.  H^^
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2010, 08:52:11 PM »
Also,

It's easier to get square rods or dowels in those sizes.

Jim Pollock    y1

Offline phil c

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 10:05:32 AM »
Looks better, so more AP's. Saves weight, flies betta.  H^^
A flat plate flap with a stiff covering on it will be stiffer than a tapered flap(the tapering brings the surfaces closer together, so they are less effective for stiffening).  But mostly it is a pretty looking detail.
phil Cartier

Offline TDM

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2010, 10:40:30 AM »
It is all about lift distribution along the plane of the wing. As you move toward the tip of the wing you have more lift. Ideally you want an even lift distribution. Equal Elliptical lift balanced along the wingspan gives you the least resistance with maximum effect witch in effect will minimize the loss of speed during maneuvers.  The flaps is the same, you try to balance it so as it deflects it maintains the wing lift balance. Elliptical wings in general have the best lift distribution.
This works if you do not have enough power. But fortunately we have more than enough so it becomes more of a, it looks good, that a pure design like a performance glider where every little bit helps. For example Windy has square shape flaps on a bunch of his ships and they fly good despite they are a flat sheet and it does not taper at all.


Serge you are right I was thinking of elliptical distribution and I typed something else instead.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 10:28:08 AM by Traian Dorin Morosanu »
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2010, 05:32:28 PM »
It is all about lift distribution along the plane of the wing. As you move toward the tip of the wing you have more lift. Ideally you want an even lift distribution. Equal lift balanced along the wingspan gives you the least resistance with maximum effect witch in effect will minimize the loss of speed during maneuvers.  The flaps is the same, you try to balance it so as it deflects it maintains the wing lift balance. Elliptical wings in general have the best lift distribution.
This works if you do not have enough power. But fortunately we have more than enough so it becomes more of a, it looks good, that a pure design like a performance glider where every little bit helps. For example Windy has square shape flaps on a bunch of his ships and they fly good despite they are a flat sheet and it does not taper at all.

Huh?

Here's what I think.  First, I wouldn't pick a flap cross section for stiffness. My Impact flaps taper to a 1/32" radius at the TE and are the stiffest in Christendom.  I picked the radius: 1) for looks, and 2) for aerodynamic predictability.  I worry that where the flow separates from a roundy TE is hard to say, and may even fluctuate.  Second, I would guess that the best flap TE thickness is an inch or more.  I think that gives the flow on the upper surface a good chance of not separating until it gets to the TE, while providing a heap of camber.  Look up "split flaps".  I have tried flaps with TEs as thick as 3" (see photo). 

Igor, who has done actual CFD analysis of stunt airfoils, uses a rectangular cross-section flap, which was good enough for second in the world.
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2010, 09:03:29 AM »
It is all about lift distribution along the plane of the wing. As you move toward the tip of the wing you have more lift. Ideally you want an even lift distribution. Equal lift balanced along the wingspan gives you the least resistance with maximum effect witch in effect will minimize the loss of speed during maneuvers. ...Windy has square shape flaps on a bunch of his ships and they fly good despite they are a flat sheet and it does not taper at all.

Possibly we have semantics problem here, but I'm pretty confused by this wording and have to disagree with it.

First, I'll start with the flap part, since that is the topic of this thread. We have discussed this several places before - perhaps even in this thread, so I'll just say that these planes don't just fly well "despite" the flat-sheet flaps, but probably because of them (and any other good design strategies). NACA research, Al Rabe's experiments as documented in at least one of his articles, and my XFOIL plots indicate that flat-sheet flaps give the best performance for sealed hinges (non-Fowler type flaps) and even aid performance as stationary flaps on otherwise flapless wings, like the "Flite Streak's".

*Secondly, the most efficient wing for any given total lift, span, and speed is one with elliptical lift distribution. That means that the lift drops off elliptically toward the tip. Such a lift distribution gives constant downwash along the span, but not constant lift or "more" lift toward the tip. Theoretically - in a perhaps over-simplified way - an elliptical wing would have this lift distribution. However, since there are increased losses near and toward the tip, straight tapered wings come fairly close to elliptical distributions of lift. Again in simplified theory, lift at any tip is zero. The Spitfire is a good example of how much faith classical designers put in the elliptical shape, aligning the chords close to their aero centers to minimize twisting torques and probably to give some advantages in control deflection drag. One nice thing for stunt models is that for an elliptical wing has its a.c. much further inboard than normally tapered wings (at 42% vs 47% of the half span) - again theoretically. This diminishes susceptibility to side gusts or gust biased airspeed along the span. Again, this is because lift diminishes toward tips. This is what gives least loss of speed in maneuvers too.

'hope I did not misrepresent what was meant in the quote, but I certainly disagree with what was actually said.

* Edit: The exceptions to this are tips where vortices are split or minimized by sweep, which do indeed allow greater lift nearer the main area's extremities, but again the elliptical wings with straight trailing edges win over swept tips. These are still works in progress - see other threads - but perhaps this was the focus of the previous post??.

SK
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 10:56:42 AM by Serge_Krauss »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2010, 09:47:04 AM »
Look up "split flaps".  I have tried flaps with TEs as thick as 3" (see photo). 

    With that picture as evidence, who could argue with your credibility?

    Brett

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 09:57:32 AM »
Leave it to Howard,  thinking outside the box.  Why isn't he still using the idea? H^^ H^^
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2010, 01:17:15 PM »
Why isn't he still using the idea? H^^ H^^

Because he builds slowly.  Stay tuned.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2010, 01:19:13 PM »
...the elliptical wings with straight trailing edges win over swept tips.

In stunt? 
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2010, 09:32:55 PM »
In stunt?  

No.

Added next day: IMO because of structural considerations (stiffness and a.c.), although I might try it anyway sometime.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 06:44:15 AM by Serge_Krauss »

Offline jim gilmore

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Re: Flap/elevator taper
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2010, 11:42:58 AM »
I'm a bit confused by the statement that there is more lift at the tip ?
I'm wondering how you might be seeing or thinking this ?


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