Author Topic: Design versus style. (Read 13178 times)

Randy Powell · « **on:** July 12, 2012, 11:30:30 AM »

So, I've been scribbling lately. I've finally designing a new plane for electric. I was able to put it off for quite awhile because I didn't have the electronic pieces to use in designing the thing. Now I have accumulated at least the minimum pieces needed and started to draw up something.

The issues is, I know what I want from a design standpoint' this being the "numbers" part. But I am struggling with the "style" part. I haven't hit on the "look" I want yet except generally. The way I usually design something is to draw out things like the centerlines, airfoils, etc. The numbers part. Then I decide how to put it together into a look while accounting for things that are numbers related like side area, horizontal and vertical CG, etc. I have to admit that part of it has been trying to come up with something "different". Any who frequent this forum have probably seen planes I've designed and I'm told my planes have a certain look. I'm trying to break away from that while putting in components known to work.

Hmmm,

Maybe I should just cave in and build the Trivial Pursuit kit I have under the bench.

OK, rant over. If you have some ideas on how you design planes, I'm all ears.

PerttiMe · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2012, 01:08:17 PM »

Browsing the interwebs, I sometimes encounter interesting ideas. Not something you'd probably build but inspiration maybe?

RandySmith · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2012, 01:23:04 PM »

"I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it."

You may fly your pants??? is that a type of plane ?

how so?

Randy

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2012, 01:31:54 PM »

Maybe you should spend some time sketching out planes purely from stylistic considerations. When you have a pile of them, then see if you can fit the "look" into your preferred numbers.

PerttiMe · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2012, 01:56:28 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on July 12, 2012, 01:23:04 PM

You may fly your pants??? is that a type of plane ?

Kidding, or actually don't know? I'll post a pic of a particularly nice looking Blue Pants. The one responsible may well be a member here.

Trostle · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2012, 02:15:34 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on July 12, 2012, 01:23:04 PM

You may fly your pants??? is that a type of plane ?

Randy

Bluepants was published in Aeromodeller, January 1955. 39 inch span. Plans avaialble from the AMA plans service. The article mentions that it was flown at a 54 European Championships.

Keith

RandySmith · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2012, 02:23:15 PM »

A WILD logo for sure, That one was new to me

Regards
Randy

RandySmith · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2012, 02:24:59 PM »

Quote from: PerttiMe on July 12, 2012, 01:08:17 PM

Browsing the interwebs, I sometimes encounter interesting ideas. Not something you'd probably build but inspiration maybe?

Love the color scheme on the Hawker !

Randy

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:29:03 PM »

Randy (Powell)... 1) Start drawing it like any other new design. 1) Decide if you want to load the battery from the top (easy) or bottom (need a cradle, PITA). 1) Figure out the motor cooling and battery cooling and battery changing access requirements. 1) Make sure there's plenty of room to move the battery fore/aft for balance and allow extra room, just in case the battery manufacturer stops making the pack you designed your plane around. 1) Remember that there is a good case for a sleek design. 1) Talk to Paul. 1) Talk to PTG. 1) Talk to Norm. 1) Talk to Mike. 1) Talk to Keith. 1) Ignore anything Donny or I tell you.

Steve

Matt Colan · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2012, 04:53:51 PM »

Hi Randy,

Try this thread:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=13425.0;all

I've done more sketches since the last time I posted them, maybe I could post more of them

Randy Powell · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2012, 05:51:25 PM »

Steve,

I always listen to Paul, Mike, etc. I never listen to you so I just go with the norm.

I'm just whining because I'm currently at a low ebb for creation. I'll come back around eventually.

Steve, I'm not worried about battery loading or cooling. Those I think I have mostly figured out. It's more about what I want it to look like. And right now, inspiration is failing me. But I like the SpeedTyphoon.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2012, 07:28:04 PM »

A few years ago when we were building our first electrics, we were (of course) simply converting IC airplanes. My brother asked the question "What does an electric stunter look like?" It probably would not have a chin scoop to hide the non-existant engine cylinder, nor would it have the engine located high to control the vertical CG. It would not have a big belly to hide the tuned pipe.

BTW if you like the SpeedTyphoon, google the "Napier Heston Racer" That's a bird that needs to be commited to CLPA...

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2012, 10:50:01 PM »

I think that if you're really stuck, it may help to look to full-scale aviation.

How could you possibly go wrong?

Trostle · « **Reply #13 on:** July 13, 2012, 02:22:42 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on July 12, 2012, 07:28:04 PM

(Clip)

BTW if you like the SpeedTyphoon, google the "Napier Heston Racer" That's a bird that needs to be commited to CLPA...

Hi Dennis,

The Napier Heston racer is truly a gorgeous machine. Unfortuantely, it falls into a category similar to the Bugatti racer that is difficult to translate into a CLPA design and still capture the appearance of the full scale aircraft without excessive distortions. The nose is very short. The fuselage is rather bulky (by CLPA standards) and the horizontal tail is very small. I know of one individual who tried to develop this into a CLPA design, but could not get satisfied with the results to where plans were never drawn up.

Keith

Trostle · « **Reply #14 on:** July 13, 2012, 02:30:09 AM »

Some rather poor pictures of the Napier Heston machine.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #15 on:** July 13, 2012, 07:23:57 AM »

Hi Keith
GREAT info there on the Napier-Heston. Like the Bugatti, another one of those "could have beens".

TO be sure the N-H will not jump from the 3-view to the plans, for all the reasons you described. As you know from my Typhoon, another really short nosed bird, I have a much looser interpretation of semi-scale than a lot of folks. I think the N-H fuse with the wing moved aft to adjust the moments would still be a darned interesting shape. Don't know HOW to hide a 30% tail though. Per Randy's challenge to find a new idea, the N-H presents an interesting and somewhat off-beat appearance. Randy does really cool designs, if he started with the N-H and "Randyized" it, we could be in for a heck of a ride!

BTW: I did a really extreme package layout excercise & determined that I coud put 23 oz of motor & battery with the aft-most dimension about 5.5" behind the prop. That may not be enough for a scale N-H nose but it would certainly let the nose get a LOT shorter than what we are used to seeing. My brother has been nagging at me for over 30 years to build an updated Typhoon; bigger, fatter, with a shorter nose...

PerttiMe · « **Reply #16 on:** July 13, 2012, 09:47:55 AM »

There's some material about the Napier Heston Racer on the net. A google search or image search should find a thing or two.

Here's the beginning of a 1943 article on the ill-fated prototype.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1943/1943%20-%200955.html
(there's a couple of pages of adds in the middle, when you browse forward)

If you are registered to hippocketaeronautics, you can download the article from:
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_plans/details.php?image_id=1895
it is 1.5 MegaBytes

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #17 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:44:49 PM »

Hey Randy. You have had some pretty good success with your "offbeat" designs, so why do you want to do something different? Your planes always get admiring comments.

I have designed a couple electric stunters, but they have been mainly experiments, so nothing very dramatic or capable of placing in the front row. (but I flew my e-plane last week at the Salem "Lucky Hand" shindig.)

My pet peeve is that, as batteries get more efficient, they change the shape factors, so they won't fit anymore. I would have to design a new plane to accommodate the new battery pack I want.

Floyd

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #18 on:** July 13, 2012, 02:52:06 PM »

Here, I missed some candidates:

(I have a Jane's Aircraft Recognition Guide which is great for finding all sorts of obscure aircraft. Some are cool, like these. Some are boring, like the P-51 or the Extra 300).

Bill Little · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2012, 04:15:02 PM »

Brother Randy,

You remind me of Chip Foose, so do like he does....... get all the major points squared away and get the pencil flying! Do 5 or 6 rapid fire drawings then refine the one you like.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2012, 07:58:36 PM »

Heck, I used to get all kinds of inspiration from Overhaulin' Glad it's coming back in the Fall.

I have the basic idea down. I think. I was bummed by the splat of the low rider. But I think I'm making a comeback.

Tim, no goofy stuff.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2012, 08:40:01 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on July 13, 2012, 07:58:36 PM

Tim, no goofy stuff.

Uh. Goofy?

What even do you mean?

Randy Powell · « **Reply #22 on:** July 14, 2012, 01:59:55 PM »

Tim,

For instance, this would not be a candidate.

Bill Little · « **Reply #23 on:** July 14, 2012, 02:22:37 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on July 13, 2012, 07:58:36 PM

Heck, I used to get all kinds of inspiration from Overhaulin' Glad it's coming back in the Fall.

I have the basic idea down. I think. I was bummed by the splat of the low rider. But I think I'm making a comeback.

Tim, no goofy stuff.

Hi Randy,

I have the perfect candidate to be Overhauled...... my 1971 Datsun 240Z. Just don't know how I could get them to come to NC to get it!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #24 on:** July 14, 2012, 02:59:12 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on July 14, 2012, 01:59:55 PM

Tim,

For instance, this would not be a candidate.

Well I should hope not! That's a jet!

PerttiMe · « **Reply #25 on:** July 15, 2012, 02:00:20 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on July 13, 2012, 07:23:57 AM

I think the N-H fuse with the wing moved aft to adjust the moments would still be a darned interesting shape. Don't know HOW to hide a 30% tail though.

No need to hide anything, unless you are going for a TRUE scale model.

Like, I don't think Windy's Spitfire or Tsunami would pass as real scale models but they have enough of the distinctive features blended into "the numbers".

Avaiojet · « **Reply #26 on:** July 15, 2012, 07:55:30 AM »

Jeepers!

Looks almost like my biplane pusher! And I ain't kidding.

Charles

Randy Powell · « **Reply #27 on:** July 15, 2012, 12:51:55 PM »

It's sort of a combination of my last plane and my signature plane.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #28 on:** July 15, 2012, 09:41:21 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on July 14, 2012, 02:22:37 PM

Hi Randy,

I have the perfect candidate to be Overhauled...... my 1971 Datsun 240Z. Just don't know how I could get them to come to NC to get it!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

I was tryin to get my girlfriend to submit MY 72 240 Z for Overhaulin too,,

Randy Powell · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2012, 03:52:11 PM »

Yea, be nice if I could let them at my old Blazer. I can't imagine what Chip would come up with. Maybe I can talk my wife into it.

Igor Burger · « **Reply #30 on:** July 19, 2012, 08:31:02 AM »

Claus Maikis once wrote something like shapes following its function are always well looking (at least that is what I remember from hist statement) ... so may it is enough to make airplane look like airplane and it must be pretty

... I tried this:

Tania Uzunova · « **Reply #31 on:** July 19, 2012, 11:28:58 AM »

I do not know why but probably that is one of rare models which i like naked and also painted ; )))) i do not know about pure sex, but definitely know about pure design : )

Avaiojet · « **Reply #32 on:** July 19, 2012, 01:40:53 PM »

Nice,

Looks like the GBR-3 had a bit of influence.

Going "Texaco" with the colors?

Charles

Tania Uzunova · « **Reply #33 on:** July 19, 2012, 02:28:47 PM »

Here is it ; ) with colours ; )

PerttiMe · « **Reply #34 on:** July 19, 2012, 02:48:18 PM »

Igor did pretty OK with it at 2011 European Champs...

Tania Uzunova · « **Reply #35 on:** July 20, 2012, 12:45:46 AM »

" I'm not touching that statement at all"

Ty Marcucci

It's not need to, you will burn :PPPPPPPPPPPPPP

Igor Burger · « **Reply #36 on:** July 20, 2012, 01:10:54 AM »

Quote from: Avaiojet on July 19, 2012, 01:40:53 PM

Nice,

Looks like the GBR-3 had a bit of influence.

Going "Texaco" with the colors?

Charles

... yes yes, I needed nose area so the solution was easy ... and as you can see Texaco is not on side, but at least Mirco's stars are there :- )))

Avaiojet · « **Reply #37 on:** July 20, 2012, 07:40:07 AM »

Quote from: Igor Burger on July 20, 2012, 01:10:54 AM

... yes yes, I needed nose area so the solution was easy ... and as you can see Texaco is not on side, but at least Mirco's stars are there :- )))

Igor,

Your model looks really good. The design has good balance but I would have not used the yellow.

Representation of the "fringe" on some flags? A guess.

Allso, I see your adjustible rudder, do you find yourself involved with that or once set is it done?

I have a read white and blue model comming up. Colors work nice when thought is given to the percentades of color.

Are you in the design field?

Charles

Igor Burger · « **Reply #38 on:** July 20, 2012, 09:19:17 AM »

Thanx, but not it is not any flag, may be I am color blind, but combination white-red-blue seems to me somehow "dead" so I always use little bit yellow close to read, to give it little bit "sharpness" or how to call it.

I use Rabe rudder, it is necessary because of my motor regulator, which can be confused if model does not fly without ill movements, yaws etc. So I use it to disable hinging and also it allws to set "0" offset, and this is one of devices for trimming, because unlike most of US flyers I use offset and I use it for trimming instead of LO.

nathan Metzner · « **Reply #39 on:** July 20, 2012, 09:27:11 AM »

That plane is down right beautiful.

Trostle · « **Reply #40 on:** July 21, 2012, 04:08:04 PM »

Quote from: Avaiojet on July 20, 2012, 07:40:07 AM

Igor,

(Clip)

The design has good balance but I would have not used the yellow.

Representation of the "fringe" on some flags? A guess.

(Clip)

Charles

Avaiojet,

Whether or not you realize it or not, you are actually criticising the great work of a master modeler, a superb builder, a world class stunt pilot, an expert recognized on several continents, and a real contributor of USEFULL information to these forums. That evidently is beyond your comprehension.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #41 on:** July 21, 2012, 05:47:50 PM »

Well, regardless of what some may say, I think it's a beautiful plane. I love the take off on the notional GeeBee. And it's a very slick design. I also like the yellow.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #42 on:** July 21, 2012, 07:15:24 PM »

I like it so much that at some point I'm going to make a profile of it -- or at least, something that's other wise up to my mediocre standards but has that side profile.

It won't look as nice.

Igor Burger · « **Reply #43 on:** July 22, 2012, 01:04:02 AM »

Guys, I tell you I am little bit color blind, I see red color slightly darker than it should be and therefore I needed something "fresh" ... I consulted those colors lot with Tania (she is designer and I see her eyes work well) .. and she say combination white, red, blue and yellow is OK

... especially very good in some cases like:

PerttiMe · « **Reply #44 on:** July 22, 2012, 02:14:45 AM »

Quote from: Trostle on July 21, 2012, 04:08:04 PM

...criticising the great work of a master modeler, a superb builder, a world class stunt pilot, an expert recognized on several continents ...

This gets a bit off-topic, but I believe it is acceptable to disagree on esthetics with a Master.

I am not color blind, or a Master, but still think that Igor's color scheme is better WITH the yellow.

I am not sure if red/blue/white has been done so much that it sometimes gets dull, or if it really benefits from spicing up a little. For pure patriotism, on my side, I'd have to go for blue and white - maybe something like what Lauri Malila did about 10 years ago:

Tania Uzunova · « **Reply #45 on:** July 22, 2012, 01:38:59 PM »

OK ; ))))))))))) I could not resist ;P so that is one of my photographs catching in moment when Igor charged the battery of the model ;P )))) So as Ty Marcucci if some day go to the museum

) I hope to be with that portrate of owner :PPPPP

)))))

Igor Burger · « **Reply #46 on:** July 22, 2012, 01:53:25 PM »

pffff who is that? ... that guy need to shave time to time and especially buy new teeth

Tania, did anyone tell you that you do too good photos? .. you not need to focus so precisely, little gentle fog will be nice to have sometimes somewhere over the face ... this really looks like ticket to museum :- ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Tania Uzunova · « **Reply #47 on:** July 22, 2012, 02:02:16 PM »

emmmm do not worry ; ))) every designer ;PP )) especially for museums and art or issues ;P made RE touch of the models ; )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) so

you will be look like something like that

do not worry

D: ))) noone will see the first photo

D )
ps..
the beard is important part of life of every modelar it's gaves more respect so i leave it ;PPPPPPPPPPPPPP

Igor Burger · « **Reply #48 on:** July 22, 2012, 02:23:48 PM »

:- ))))))) .. I see you could be also good dentist

Randy Powell · « **Reply #49 on:** July 24, 2012, 04:12:20 PM »

Back to our regularly scheduled program already in progress...

I finished the design part of the process and am now trying to figure out structure. These new fangled electric things are different than IC.