News:
2018----><---- T Shirt




  • September 22, 2018, 07:47:01 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore  (Read 3064 times)

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« on: October 21, 2017, 12:11:21 PM »
I was told many times, and by modelers with a great deal more experience than myself, that's for sure, you can mount the bellcrank anywhere in the wing.

Doesn't have to be on the CG.

Because of the spar location, I have two options.

The first is to mount the bellcrank 1" forward of the CG. This will put the leadouts, one forward and one behind the spar.

The second choice is to mount the bellcrank 1.675" behind the CG. This location will put both leadouts behind the spar.

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

CB
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.


Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10364
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 01:55:04 PM »
The same modelers who told you that the bellcrank position doesn't matter told you that the leadout positions do.  Or, they did if they were competent (all true Scottsmen...).

They also told you that the angle that the leadouts bend going through the leadout guides matter.

So figure out where the leadouts really need to be, and work from there.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 02:43:58 PM »
The same modelers who told you that the bellcrank position doesn't matter told you that the leadout positions do.  Or, they did if they were competent (all true Scottsmen...).

They also told you that the angle that the leadouts bend going through the leadout guides matter.

So figure out where the leadouts really need to be, and work from there.

Tim,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I do understand this but didn't do it, I thought I had limitations of placement and movement of the leadouts because the tip is small in length.

I also thought In both applications the adjustment at the tip was only .5". A quick guess.

So, your reply made me take a second look to re-measure for leadout placement AND rethink the application.

I now see mounting the bellcrank behind the CG will allow for more relaxed leadouts at the tip. That is, a lesser angle to the flying lines. And will allow for a tip adjustable movement of 2.5".

I believe I can live with this without having to change the wing, which is already cut with the spar in place.

It pays to Post and get replies.

Thanks for the eye opener, it's appreciated.

Charles




Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Mark Mc

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 372
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 07:39:36 PM »
The same modelers who told you that the bellcrank position doesn't matter told you that the leadout positions do.  Or, they did if they were competent (all true Scottsmen...).

They also told you that the angle that the leadouts bend going through the leadout guides matter.

So figure out where the leadouts really need to be, and work from there.


Hmmmm...  You know, I never thought about it, but if you offset the bellcrank by a large amount from where the leadouts enter the wing, I suppose you could also make a secondary pair of leadout guides close to the bellcrank to align the leadouts.  Kinda like the pulleys in a full scale plane for your rudder cables.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10364
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 08:45:45 PM »

Hmmmm...  You know, I never thought about it, but if you offset the bellcrank by a large amount from where the leadouts enter the wing, I suppose you could also make a secondary pair of leadout guides close to the bellcrank to align the leadouts.  Kinda like the pulleys in a full scale plane for your rudder cables.

I would hesitate long and hard before doing that in a stunt ship, but for some scale planes it may make lots of sense.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Serge_Krauss

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1139
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 09:59:35 PM »
Charles-

I'm not familiar with your set up, but I haven't found a plane where I really had a problem with bellcrank position, the closest coming with fitting a 4" bellcrank into a small space (small model) and having to watch the forward arm's clearance with the leading edge. I didn't entirely like the leadout bend I was getting at the tipwith that, but it's "OK." In no cases though, have I had a real problem with leadout angle to the best leadout exit position. I have been able even to use adjustable leadout guides and slot the spar to accept the passage of the forward leadout through it. I hope you are not shying away from doing that. Taking a small amount of wood from the center of a beam  doesn't weaken it significantly in bending strength. You probably knew that, but for anyone interested, here are two photos showing this. The first shows the Primary Force spar slot on my modified wing (The slot is stock, per Mike Pratt). You can see the front leadout passing through the spar and into the adjustable leadout guide. The second shows a different approach through a spar for another beamed-wing project that has set unattended for a few years. It accommodates the range of leadout rakes I computed to be useful. Those spars allow useful bellcrank positioning with useful rake angles.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10364
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 11:01:37 PM »
I'm not familiar with your set up, ...

AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 07:37:51 AM »
The bellcrank can be positioned as far back as needed, using two small pulleys at the leadout guide. Flexible leadouts of course.

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 02:28:38 PM »
The bellcrank can be positioned as far back as needed, using two small pulleys at the leadout guide. Flexible leadouts of course.

Wolfgang,

Two small pulleys? Your leadouts look adjustable, do these pulleys move with the adjustment?

Got a photo of the pulleys you used?

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 08:29:47 AM »
I like the pulley idea but would be concerned on how to make sure the cable stays in the groove. Could also use short eyelets say 1/8" in length with the tube end bell-mouthed open or just the brass line ends. The trick is to make sure that if the lines have any angle to them either from the flying side or wing internal side they don't stick. This was a problem we had when we were using solids. Some guys used leadout tubing guides that were 1" long (some longer) and the ship would hunt because the solid leads would bend and stick in the long leadout guide tubes. Short eyelets solve this.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 10:43:19 AM »
Attached is a drawing of the leadout arrangement using pulleys. The deep grooves prevent the cables to jump out. Sorry, I did not make any pictures during building.
Th pulleys are made of polyamide, with a brass bushing at the center.

Regards,

Wolfgang

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 10:49:48 AM »
Also as jpg. :-)

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 01:39:55 PM »
Also as jpg. :-)

Wolfgang,

Nice drawing! Thank you.

Could just a couple of steal pins .125" in diam work. Pass the leadout line between them?

To much friction?

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10364
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 01:40:52 PM »
Attached is a drawing of the leadout arrangement using pulleys. The deep grooves prevent the cables to jump out. Sorry, I did not make any pictures during building.
Th pulleys are made of polyamide, with a brass bushing at the center.

Regards,

Wolfgang

How do you keep the leadouts from popping out of the pulleys?

(Intuitively, I'm thinking that a gently bent piece of brass tubing may work just as well as a pulley -- but I have no proof other than "it feels right".)
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10364
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2017, 01:42:34 PM »
Could just a couple of steal pins .125" in diam work. Pass the leadout line between them?

I think you want to avoid sudden bends in the leadout cables -- that may be more important than a frictionless bend (which is why I said a gently bent brass tubing may be better).  Someone with a torque watch and some time on their hands needs to do some measurements.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 01:54:13 PM »
I think you want to avoid sudden bends in the leadout cables -- that may be more important than a frictionless bend (which is why I said a gently bent brass tubing may be better).  Someone with a torque watch and some time on their hands needs to do some measurements.

Tim,

I understand your bent tube. Friction inside the tubes also?

Lines are "laid back" with the model in flight. They arch to the model from the handle to the tip.

CB

Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 02:04:55 PM »
Tim, on he drawing you can notice that the leadoffs cannot pop out of the groove at least at the point where they cross the mounting plate. I have been using this system for years, and never had a problem.

Best,

Wolfgang

Online Trostle

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2341
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2017, 03:03:00 PM »
Wolfgang,

Could just a couple of steal pins .125" in diam work. Pass the leadout line between them?

To much friction?

Charles

Hi Charles,

Any cable rubbing on a wire will eventually fail.  Might work OK on a Scale model that is flown only a few times.  On a Stunt ship, it is not a good idea.  I saw a leadout fail on a pull test prior to a final top 20 semifinals at a Nats several years ago.  The leadout failed where it rubbed against a landing gear strut, even where there was hardly any angular deflection past the strut.  I am not sure, but the model probably had hundreds of flights on it prior to that pull test.

The pulley solution looks like a good idea.

Keith

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2017, 05:18:24 PM »
Hi Charles,

Any cable rubbing on a wire will eventually fail.  Might work OK on a Scale model that is flown only a few times.  On a Stunt ship, it is not a good idea.  I saw a leadout fail on a pull test prior to a final top 20 semifinals at a Nats several years ago.  The leadout failed where it rubbed against a landing gear strut, even where there was hardly any angular deflection past the strut.  I am not sure, but the model probably had hundreds of flights on it prior to that pull test.

The pulley solution looks like a good idea.

Keith

Keith,

Now all I have to do is get a few pulleys?

Anyone ever install or set up the leadouts so they can be replaced?

CB
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline TDM

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 541
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2017, 08:45:43 AM »
Here you go
1 Use this http://rcplanes.000webhostapp.com/cg_canard.htm to get an idea where the best CG will be located.
2 Use this http://nclra.org/Programs/LineRake.php to get an idea of the entrance angle of the lines will be

From there you have a good idea where the lines will exit the bird. As long as you get this line exit point correct and the CG in the correct range you can put the bellcrank in the nose for all you care if is more practical for your application.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2017, 12:11:53 PM »
Here you go
1 Use this http://rcplanes.000webhostapp.com/cg_canard.htm to get an idea where the best CG will be located.
2 Use this http://nclra.org/Programs/LineRake.php to get an idea of the entrance angle of the lines will be

From there you have a good idea where the lines will exit the bird. As long as you get this line exit point correct and the CG in the correct range you can put the bellcrank in the nose for all you care if is more practical for your application.

Traian,

I have the CG location. I did the math after I had completed the final drawing of the model. It is where it is.

As for the leadout placement. I could have had a board sticking out of the tip forward of the LE, but that looks terrible.

This is why the bellcrank is now placed at the rear third of the cord, behind the CG.

LE is swept back and the tip cord is only 5.25" in length, root cord is 10.5". I now have an adjustable lead out thing.

That line rake formula might put the leadouts on that stick I mentioned. I will go there and do that math. See what I get.

What I have will work. Probably not as much friction at the tip through tubes as thought. White grease?

Thanks for the reply.

Hey! I'll be up there for Xmas.

CB

Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Serge_Krauss

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1139
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2017, 12:09:29 PM »
Charles, I'd really like to see the actual plane and/or its configuration. From your "biplane" description, it doesn't seem to be the homebuilt turned F-1 racer, but then, if it's like most bipes with a gap between the wings, it doesn't seem as though it should have a leadout/spar intersection problem either. I did a search and couldn't find anything. So I'm confused and can't offer any advice past saying that the c.g. is placed relative to the aero center, and you seem to have addressed that, if you did the math. Will you be able to post a picture or diagram soon? Thanks.

SK


Offline Howard Rush

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6289
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2017, 12:28:43 PM »
I saw a leadout fail on a pull test prior to a final top 20 semifinals at a Nats several years ago.  The leadout failed where it rubbed against a landing gear strut, even where there was hardly any angular deflection past the strut. 

Here's one that rubbed on a rib.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6289
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2017, 12:57:28 PM »
Anyone ever install or set up the leadouts so they can be replaced?

A take-apart airplane that has both wings come off can have good access to remove the leadouts from the bellcrank.  I have the notion to use 19-strand leadouts, which will probably need to be replaced pretty frequently. 

Friction is one issue, but I suspect that leadout springiness caused by bending the cable at the leadout guide may be a worse problem.  It's akin to the bending on a cable handle.  I haven't calculated the spring effect (it's not worth calculating for a cable handle), but I did plot the leadout bend angle for my new dog.  It's more than usual, hence the interest in more-flexible leadout cable:
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2017, 03:29:41 PM »
A take-apart airplane that has both wings come off can have good access to remove the leadouts from the bellcrank.  I have the notion to use 19-strand leadouts, which will probably need to be replaced pretty frequently. 

Friction is one issue, but I suspect that leadout springiness caused by bending the cable at the leadout guide may be a worse problem.  It's akin to the bending on a cable handle.  I haven't calculated the spring effect (it's not worth calculating for a cable handle), but I did plot the leadout bend angle for my new dog.  It's more than usual, hence the interest in more-flexible leadout cable:

Howard,

Thanks for that. Not sure, but I believe I have the 21 strand stuff from Tom Morris.

You have me thinking. A good thing.

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Trostle

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2341
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2017, 08:20:45 AM »
Howard,

You have me thinking. A good thing.

Charles

Huh.

I tried to think once and nothing happened.

Keith

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2017, 11:22:01 AM »
Huh.

I tried to think once and nothing happened.

Keith

Some get old and forget how important thinking is.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2880
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2017, 03:17:26 PM »
Some get old and forget how important thinking is.


   "From the mouth of babes."
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2017, 04:27:08 PM »
Charles, I'd really like to see the actual plane and/or its configuration. From your "biplane" description, it doesn't seem to be the homebuilt turned F-1 racer, but then, if it's like most bipes with a gap between the wings, it doesn't seem as though it should have a leadout/spar intersection problem either. I did a search and couldn't find anything. So I'm confused and can't offer any advice past saying that the c.g. is placed relative to the aero center, and you seem to have addressed that, if you did the math. Will you be able to post a picture or diagram soon? Thanks.

SK

Serge,

Took me a bit of time to get this drawn.

So, which lead out application would be the best choice?

CB
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Trostle

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2341
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2017, 11:05:01 PM »
Serge,

Took me a bit of time to get this drawn.

So, which lead out application would be the best choice?

CB

So, where is your CG?

A good rule of thumb would be to determine the mean aerodynamic chord.  Then locate your CG at about 20% as a good starting place for a CL model.  With as much taper ratio that your drawing shows, you should base you CG on the MAC, not the average chord.  That MAC will be slightly larger than the average chord.  Your leadout position at the tip should be slightly behind that CG location.

Your four drawings would appear that in one case, the leadouts are too far to the rear of the probable CG.  Perhaps safe but will have a serious yaw problem.  The other three drawings show that the leadouts are too far forward of the CG which will be a disaster.

You can put your bellcrank anywhere, but the more desirable position would be to place it near the longitudinal CG locations so that with moderate line rake, which can be determined by several methods available, the leadouts will be located with minimal angular deflection at the leadout guide.

Good luck!

Keith

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2017, 09:15:13 AM »
Keith,

I forgot the CG.

It's 45% of the LE at the root cord. And there's nothing I can do about that, as you know.

Maybe I'll drop in the CG and bring the two photos up again.

Yaw. I can live with a bit of yaw.

It's that stick at the tip I'm having difficulty digesting.

Thanks for the reply.

CB
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Howard Rush

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6289
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2017, 12:18:37 PM »
I haven't been following (or maybe remembering) this conversation, but didn't you say this is a canard?  If so, and if you intend to fly it, you don't want the cg at 20% mac.  I haven't looked at Dorin's links, but you need to use something like them to find the cg and ballpark leadout location. 

You appear to assume that the lines will go toward the pilot when they come out of the wing.  They won't: they blow back in the wind.  A leadout location program should show you that angle.   

To establish a bellcrank location and leadout location for a unique airplane configuration will take some calculation or some experimenting.  I understand your hope that somebody can just give you the answer, rather than referring you to the means to calculate it, but either way will require your supplying the requisite data.  Maybe you have; I haven't looked.  It is possible that you don't know what data are needed.  If so, you'd need to look at Dorin's links (assuming they are not bogus) to find out. 

The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2017, 12:59:05 PM »
Howard,

The CG is established and fixed for this design. 45% from the LE at the root cord. I mention this.

Options are limited. And I don't have the experience to make a decision. It's that stick and the lead outs should be on a stick.

However, I'm looking for appearance without that stick.

Yes, I know lines curve towards the Pilot, I see that when I fly.

Thanks for the reply.

Charles

Edited. No, I never said it was a canard. It is not.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2017, 01:18:04 PM »
The midpoint between the readout exits should be about 2° behind the CG, see attached drawing.

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2880
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2017, 01:26:09 PM »
Howard,

The CG is established and fixed for this design. 45% from the LE at the root cord. I mention this.

Options are limited. And I don't have the experience to make a decision. It's that stick and the lead outs should be on a stick.

However, I'm looking for appearance without that stick.

Yes, I know lines curve towards the Pilot, I see that when I fly.

Thanks for the reply.

Charles

Edited. No, I never said it was a canard. It is not.

        And what is it that established the CG at 45% of the root chord and makes it fixed, and why can't anything be done about it? Especially if it a conventional (or nearly so) configuration? This is a serious question.
    Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2017, 02:20:20 PM »
        And what is it that established the CG at 45% of the root chord and makes it fixed, and why can't anything be done about it? Especially if it a conventional (or nearly so) configuration? This is a serious question.
    Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

Dan,

Thanks for the reply.

For any given design there's a CG that is determined by the design. That is, where the wing is located and the stab/elevator.

Finding the CG, there's math for that based on MAC. I think Howard mentioned this.

The wing isn't conventional, or not based on what would normally be a stunt ship.

So, although the CG may appear to be a bit further back, it actually isn't for this design.

Wolfgang,

Yes, I agree and I know this.

I'm "reaching," so I can eliminate the wing tip stick.

I'm asking if this can be done successfully? My reason for wanting the lead outs at the tip and NOT at the stick.

If I was OK with the stick, there would be no thread.

As I said, I don't know enough about this to make a decision. I cannot put the bellcrank in place and join the wing halves yet.

I have to be sure.

Charles

 



Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Trostle

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2341
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2017, 03:05:38 PM »
Hey Charles,

Is this a proven design the dictates where you say the CG is?

Once again, the CG determines where the leadouts should be, not whether you want to use a "stick" or not.  Put the bellcrank wherever you want, but as mentioned earlier, it would be preferred that the bellcrank should be somewhat in line with lines/leadout guide.

If the leadouts should be forward of the inboard wing tip as determined by the CG, an alternative would be to make a removable extension at the tip.  For static appearance, all you would have would be the leadouts coming out of the LE of the wing somewhere, then add the extension for flying purposes.

Keith
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 03:29:03 PM by Trostle »

Offline TDM

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 541
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2017, 03:37:38 PM »
Crunch in some numbers here http://nclra.org/Programs/LineRake.php  first to get an idea for the line rake and exit point. This is a ball park for your exit position.
Now put the bellcrank anywhere in the wing where it suits you.
Top drawing is correct in the nearest picture above for correct lead-out position. Other than that put the bellcrank in the nose for all I care as long as the lies exit at that point and it passes the pull test. 
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2017, 03:51:57 PM »
Crunch in some numbers here http://nclra.org/Programs/LineRake.php  first to get an idea for the line rake and exit point. This is a ball park for your exit position.
Now put the bellcrank anywhere in the wing where it suits you.
Top drawing is correct in the nearest picture above for correct lead-out position. Other than that put the bellcrank in the nose for all I care as long as the lies exit at that point and it passes the pull test.

gentlemen,

Thank you for the replies.

Traian,

I think the entire Thread is being read incorrectly?

It's all about "Eliminating" the leadouts on a stick at the tip. And nothing else. I put up options in drawings.

Sure, I know placing the leadouts well behind the CG will cause yaw. My interest is in controlling the model only.

If I use the "stick" for leadout position I'm positive I'll have great control of the model and stability.

Without the stick, I'm not sure?

Charles

Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Howard Rush

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6289
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2017, 04:05:13 PM »
I have to be sure.

We told you how to be sure.  I don't think you've taken the steps necessary to be sure, nor given others the information they'd need to do the work for you.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6289
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2017, 04:14:53 PM »
And I don't have the experience to make a decision.

Au contraire.  The experience lies in the leadout position calculator and Keith's 20%-mac rule of thumb for non-canard configuration.  You can put the CG a tad aft of that if you have a heap of wing sweep and not much stab sweep or have the prop between the wing and stab.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6289
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2017, 04:21:31 PM »
Yes, I know lines curve towards the Pilot, I see that when I fly.

I left out some steps in how I came to the conclusion that you didn't appreciate that most of the bow in the lines is at the airplane end.  Most of your sketches would have the leadouts go around a pretty sharp corner at the tip.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2017, 04:23:35 PM »
We told you how to be sure.  I don't think you've taken the steps necessary to be sure, nor given others the information they'd need to do the work for you.

Tell ya what Howard, I have four diagrams, pick one and tell me why?

CB
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Howard Rush

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6289
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2017, 04:27:51 PM »
It's all about "Eliminating" the leadouts on a stick at the tip. And nothing else.

If the first cut at the leadout position calculation shows that you oughta have a stick, you can fiddle with the parameters to see what to do to eliminate it.  That's the advantage we have living in modern times with these computers that can do the calculation in the blink of an eye. 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2880
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2017, 06:36:45 PM »
Dan,

Thanks for the reply.

For any given design there's a CG that is determined by the design. That is, where the wing is located and the stab/elevator.

Finding the CG, there's math for that based on MAC. I think Howard mentioned this.

The wing isn't conventional, or not based on what would normally be a stunt ship.

So, although the CG may appear to be a bit further back, it actually isn't for this design.

Wolfgang,

Yes, I agree and I know this.

I'm "reaching," so I can eliminate the wing tip stick.

I'm asking if this can be done successfully? My reason for wanting the lead outs at the tip and NOT at the stick.

If I was OK with the stick, there would be no thread.

As I said, I don't know enough about this to make a decision. I cannot put the bellcrank in place and join the wing halves yet.

I have to be sure.

Charles

     Well this explains nothing.  How did you come to the conclusion that the CG needs to be at 45%, and why can it NOT be changed? There have been several swept wing stunt models published before, all successful,  and PJ  Rowland's biplane stunter, which has a fair amount of leading edge sweep as an example of both. I think there is one aspect that you are not considering in this pursuit for an answer, and that this is a biplane also. I have to ask which wing will the lead  outs be going in and why, and does the configuration have any wing stagger, positive or negative?  That definitely figures in the process of determining the CG, and also affects the vertical CG  I am admittedly no wizard at math but even using the LARS method of engineering, you ain't gonna eliminate the stick. There is a difference between what you want and what you need and have to have.  Add to the mix that this is supposed to be a pusher configuration? That means a big hunk of metal behind the CG and will require a bigger hunk of metal in front of the CG to counter balance that and what ever tail configuration you are considering ,which is almost assuredly a twin boom I would guess. You haven't presented near enough information for these guys that can do the math or for the web sites with the calculators.  And you can't say that you will be OK with some yawing. You will be doubling the drag with a biplane, and you can't afford the extra drag of excess yaw. You will give an "up" control input on an airplane with the CG that far back and that much yaw and the airplane will "Huh?" And I'm not taking into account any effect that GP will  have on such a configuration, if any since it's a pusher? So many questions.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2017, 07:24:01 PM »
     Well this explains nothing.  How did you come to the conclusion that the CG needs to be at 45%, and why can it NOT be changed? There have been several swept wing stunt models published before, all successful,  and PJ  Rowland's biplane stunter, which has a fair amount of leading edge sweep as an example of both. I think there is one aspect that you are not considering in this pursuit for an answer, and that this is a biplane also. I have to ask which wing will the lead  outs be going in and why, and does the configuration have any wing stagger, positive or negative?  That definitely figures in the process of determining the CG, and also affects the vertical CG  I am admittedly no wizard at math but even using the LARS method of engineering, you ain't gonna eliminate the stick. There is a difference between what you want and what you need and have to have.  Add to the mix that this is supposed to be a pusher configuration? That means a big hunk of metal behind the CG and will require a bigger hunk of metal in front of the CG to counter balance that and what ever tail configuration you are considering ,which is almost assuredly a twin boom I would guess. You haven't presented near enough information for these guys that can do the math or for the web sites with the calculators.  And you can't say that you will be OK with some yawing. You will be doubling the drag with a biplane, and you can't afford the extra drag of excess yaw. You will give an "up" control input on an airplane with the CG that far back and that much yaw and the airplane will "Huh?" And I'm not taking into account any effect that GP will  have on such a configuration, if any since it's a pusher? So many questions.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

I think I'll just use a stick.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Peter Nevai

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 832
    • DasNet Corporation
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2018, 11:04:28 PM »
Hi Charles,

Sorry for this being a but late but you can use this for a reference, as it is not far off of what you are doing. The design shown in the bottom link was the basis for the model built in the photos in the top link. The geometry is pretty much the same with the exception that the leadouts are side by side on the 727 while it is over and under on the charger in the plans. The 727 did not use a "Stick" as it was a three line Roberts setup for throttle control. We just made sure that the model balanced just north of the bell crank. The soan on this model was around 32 inches if I recall correctly and powered by an OS 20 engine, mounted inverted under the wing.


https://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48140.0;attach=276191;image
https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/profile-swept-wing-model-with-engine-mounted-in-the-outboard-leading-edge/msg499040/#msg499040
Words Spoken by the first human to set foot on Mars... "Now What?"

Online EddyR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2214
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2018, 08:53:57 PM »
I have heard this  statement for  years "you can put the bellcrank anywhere you want"  Here is my real world experience. I built 6 Juno models over many years, Four had the bellcrank pivot in or next to the spar as per plans. Two had the bellcrank entirely behind the spar. Leadouts all in the same place. The two with the rear mounted were very hard to trim. Also they would change trim as conditions changed. The last one I had I opened it up and moved the bellcrank to the spar location and it was now easy to trim.  These were heavily flown models not hangar queens.
 NOTE    There was less angle at the leadout with the bell crank moved back so drag was not causing the problem.
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Avaiojet

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2018, 08:32:02 AM »
I have heard this  statement for  years "you can put the bellcrank anywhere you want"  Here is my real world experience. I built 6 Juno models over many years, Four had the bellcrank pivot in or next to the spar as per plans. Two had the bellcrank entirely behind the spar. Leadouts all in the same place. The two with the rear mounted were very hard to trim. Also they would change trim as conditions changed. The last one I had I opened it up and moved the bellcrank to the spar location and it was now easy to trim.  These were heavily flown models not hangar queens.
 NOTE    There was less angle at the leadout with the bell crank moved back so drag was not causing the problem.
Ed

Eddy,

Sparky has always said bellcrank placement is an issue even if it's a small issue.

And he has taken his hits on this. In fact, I remember him saying he can "feel" the difference.

In my case, this model is scale actually and isn't designed to do the pattern.

My choice of bellcrank placement and leadouts, I should be fine.

I have hung the framed model from the leadouts. Seems OK!

Thanks for the reply.

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS

Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS

Please visit my updated Website! www.cfcgraphics.com

If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot.

Owner of CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder."

"No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."

Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten.

I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.

"Ya gotta love it when a plane comes together."

Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Howard Rush

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6289
Re: Bellcrank Location. Pushy Galore
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2018, 06:23:42 PM »
There was less angle at the leadout with the bell crank moved back so drag was not causing the problem.

How do you figure that?  Wouldn’t minimum angle be when the bellcrank is at
the cg?
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again


Tags: